Sydney Metro

[David McLoughlin]

Matthew Geier wrote: 

> The Metro is wrecking its tracks with record speed, there are many places now where the rail corrugation is quite bad and there is excessive vibration. Some of the cars also appear to be developing suspension problems (possibly caused by the vibration from the corrugations). One issue with the auto-driver is that they are all perfectly consistent, so the trains all power and brake in exactly the same spot, leading to accelerated wear on that section of track.

I've just had a four-day visit to Sydney, and yesterday rode the Metro from Central to Chatswood mid-morning to try it out. It was certainly popular with passengers, being almost full on my ride. I caught the train from Chatswood back over the harbour bridge to Central; it had very few passengers, maybe 10 in the carriage I was in.

The ride felt very much as Matthew described, excessive track wear causing very noticeable vibrations in the carriages. Surprising that TfNSW didn't plan for this, but then, they bought new trams that eat the bends because they refiused to listen to people who knew what tram configurations were needed for the routes used.

The Metro will be closed for trackwork for four days from Saturday, though the notice says this is is related to the next extension. Hmmm.

https://transportnsw.info/news/2025/upcoming-trackwork-on-sydney-metro

[TP]

They are trialling and getting up the hours for through-running. This has happened on every new extension. 

I've only experienced that vibration on some trains and not others. Perhaps they're discovering that Alstom products aren't all they're made out to be. We'll find out when we get products from other manufacturers on other new lines to compare. 

Automation is not new technology and human drivers also adopt consistent driving patterns. I observed that the Czech tram driving practice to stop at the head of a platform from the typical line speed of 50 km/h is that they start the regen braking at exactly 60 metres out (the tail of the platform). The acceleration is likewise maximised up to line speed. This is obviously repeated over and over again and yet there is no vibration or excessive track wear. 

Tony P

(who personally wouldn't buy any French or Spanish transportation products of any kind)

[Richard Youl]

My casual observations are that LIGHT WEIGHT vehicles are more likely to cause corrugations than heavier trains. 

Anyone who rode the Isle of Man horse trams surely noticed serious rail corrugations. Can’t blame braking - the horses do that. Same with acceleration. No pounding of steam loco rods to blame either. No harsh electric motor acceleration either. So what causes them there? 

Both Sydney and Gold Coast tramways have serious corrugations which really need - ideally - tram scrubber cars to keep them under control. (I don’t know about Canberra). 

As for the Sydney Metro, certainly on Tallawong to Chatswood, corrugations seem to appear and disappear from one annual visit to the next so obviously are being removed on a regular basis. At least before the Sydenham extension, offpeak trips I made were mostly lightly loaded, further reducing the weight of the average train. It is amazing that Chatswood - Sydenham has corrugations on such a new line. 

But by contrast, how often do you hear rail corrugations on the Sydney, Melbourne or Brisbane heavy rail electric systems? 

Incidentally I can’t explain why the Melbourne tramway has always had very little corrugation worries. 

Richard

On 25 Dec 2025, at 11:54 am, David McLoughlin <mcloug...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Matthew Geier]

They need to do extensive systems integration testing, but they are definitely NOT up to doing thorough running testing yet - there are still a pair of stop blocks over the tracks at Sydenham. The train they have been using for testing has been stabled at Campsie.

The automation is on M1 is the oldest and most primitive type of GoA4 automation. It really is 50-year-old technology. The signalling, based on blocks, sends a speed code to the train. There are only 5 or so speed steps. eg the signalling determines 50km/hr is the appropriate speed, it sends that code to the train, and the train tries to maintain that speed. There are places where a combination of grade and load means the train 'hunts' trying to keep the selected speed.

More modern systems, like what Siemens uses and hopefully will use on Metro West and the airport, tell the train how far to go to the next decision point (distance to go). The train itself has route knowledge and speed profiles, and the train itself calculates the appropriate speed / braking to achieve the operation within the movement authority granted. It's much smoother than the Alstom system and actually intelligently coasts and makes use of the friction in curves and grades to slow, etc.

The Alstom system on M1 is a dumb bang-bang controller.

I'm pretty sure Alstom does offer a proper distance-to-go automation system - I would be betting on TfSW writing 'proven system' into the procurement contract, caused Alstom to offer their oldest product, not the newest. And then changing the top speed from 70-80 km/hr to 100 will have messed up 40 years of tuning 'heuristics' the system had accumulated running elsewhere.

All these systems are way more predictable than human drivers. Good human drivers are still way better than the machines, but really good human drivers are the minority in most cases. For a good portion of the train operators, it's their paycheck, they don't care about 'the art'. But even if you have a good complement of wonderfully skilled drivers, there will be (minor) differences in braking and acceleration for each person. The automatic systems are exact. To the cm.

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[bblun...@yahoo.com]

Sydney has certainly used grinders. 

This was doing some remedial work on the L1 in Hay St back in May 2020. I don't know how far it went, or how often it visits. I'm guessing the same one used in Melbourne?

They used a big Speno unit on the rails just prior to opening of the L3

https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tramsdownunder/A6018A24-C7E5-468C-9951-2166CD61D5D8%40icloud.com

.

[TP]

As with the trams, if TfNSW uses Alstom and CAF and doesn't have the technical knowledge to set specifications and question details, they're going to be given the cheapest, most basic product. When manufacturers achieve market dominance, they're likely to lose a few scruples on the way. An ignorant customer declaring that they are seeking "manufacturer-led" solutions are deadset mugs for exploitation. Smaller manufacturers keen to enhance their reputation will be more honest.

Tony P

[Richard Youl]

Gold Coast had something similar for 5 days recently and achieved stuff-all, and certainly not where corrugations have been ear shattering for years. 

There is nothing like having a scrubber tram (11W or 137s) you can run out whenever needed for a few trips. 

Richard

On 26 Dec 2025, at 1:42 pm, 'bblun...@yahoo.com' via TramsDownUnder <tramsdo...@googlegroups.com> wrote:



Sydney has certainly used grinders. 

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<1766720328417blob.jpg>

[Richard Youl]

I spoke to Adelaide tram drivers who said the Bombardier trams gave a better ride (to the driver) than the Alstom trams which toss the drivers around at their modest 60 km/h, and Sydney drivers prefer Alstom trams over CAF trams. Bottom of the barrel? 

Richard

On 26 Dec 2025, at 1:50 pm, 'TP' via TramsDownUnder <tramsdo...@googlegroups.com> wrote:



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[TP]

The Bombardier have swivelling bogies. That would make a significant difference. In Sydney it's six of the one, half dozen of the other at the bottom of the barrel.

Tony P

[tress...@icloud.com]

The Gold Coast trams certainly do not have swivelling bogies, but are still good enough to walk from rear to front without holding on while doing 70km/h on the reservation. 

I never thought the Adelaide Bombardier trams had swivelling bogies. Maybe a local can verify that. 

Richard 

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[Mal Rowe]

On 26/12/2025 16:02, tressteleg via TramsDownUnder wrote:
> The Gold Coast trams certainly do not have swivelling bogies, but are
> still good enough to walk from rear to front without holding on while
> doing 70km/h on the reservation.

The Gold Coast tramway was designed for the trams, so it should work,
and does.  The suspension design seems to damp yawing while the design
of  Melbourne's C1s fails in this area.  I think that later Alstom
Citadis designs do better in this area.

>
> I never thought the Adelaide Bombardier trams had swivelling bogies.
> Maybe a local can verify that.

The end sections of the Adelaide Flexity trams have motorised bogies
that have a high bolster, thus requiring a raised floor height.  There
is a step up to the area over the bogies.

The centre section has bogies with low bolsters (but no motors) and
allow a lower floor height.

Pics attached - showing the two types and holes for king pins and the
step within the end section..

Mal Rowe - not a king pin

[Matthew Geier]

The CAFs are underdamped. Very underdamped.

The Citadis 305s have more yaw damping and I think they may have transaxles joining the opposing wheels together mechanically. At least some Alstom Citadis have this mechanical link, not 100 sure about our 305s.

Adelaide has a Flexity Swift variant, with the leading bogies swivelling. The Gold Coast Flexity2 are fixed-truck but have axles between opposing wheels - and I suspect, superior (to CAF) yaw damping.

CAF appear to build to a price; their heavy rail products don't have a great reputation either.

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[TP]

The Sydney Citadis go around bends like one of those wooden articulated snake toys - with a harsh flick as each module takes a new direction.

The Adelaide Flexity have all bogies swivelling. It's like a Melbourne E but with raised floors at each end.

Tony P

[Mark Skinner]

As far as I can see, the Adelaide Citadis do not swivel. They have a pronounced lurch as they hit curves.

As you can see by the pic, there's little provision for swivelling. 

Adelaide also has a corrugation problém,  but they do grind off the worst of it occasionally. 

Mark Skinner

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[TP]

The Adelaide Citadis have fixed trucks. Apart from the Citadis Spirit/Dualis tram/train, the only other Citadis with swivelling bogies (at the ends only) is the new 305 for Paris. 

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6d/Citadis_305_%C3%A0_La_Gare_de_Saint_Denis_MG_5108.jpg

Seems that they're getting the message at last. 

The only other such models they offer are from among the remnants of the Flexity range (e.g. Melbourne E and G). 

Tony P

[Matthew Geier]

On Sat, 27 Dec 2025 at 14:05, 'TP' via TramsDownUnder <tramsdo...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

The Adelaide Citadis have fixed trucks. Apart from the Citadis Spirit/Dualis tram/train, the only other Citadis with swivelling bogies (at the ends only) is the new 305 for Paris. 

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6d/Citadis_305_%C3%A0_La_Gare_de_Saint_Denis_MG_5108.jpg

Seems that they're getting the message at last. 

No, not really, they had to do that as the swept envelope of the fixed truck Cidadis didn't fit the T1 infrastructure that was built for the part low-floor TFS cars. It was either modify the tram or modify the tracks. They modified the tram. If Alstom didn't make that change, a good chance the likes of Stadlier would have got the gig instead.

[TP]

The French would rather die than comply with EU rules and open up their tramway tenders to non French trams. Their experience with CAFs in Besancon would consolidate that viewpoint. 

Yes, Stadler and Škoda are the leading manufacturers of trams with swivelling bogies in Europe.

Tony P

[Mick Duncan]

Gday  Mal, All

Thanks for the  pics

The Flexity motor trucks have real axle sets which must make
them ride well and be kinder to the track,but the non motored
ones have stub axles,sob,sob but it must be for more room in
the tram

I assume they have double reduction gears for todays high
speed motors,or maybe not

Cheers,   Mick

[Greg Sutherland]

The Adelaide Citadis were originally owned by Madrid, Spain.

They were bought from Madrid by Adelaide when Madrid did not go ahead with planned extensions.

Greg

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[David McLoughlin]

Greg Sutherland wrote:

>  The Adelaide Citadis were originally owned by Madrid, Spain. They were bought from Madrid by Adelaide when Madrid did not go ahead with planned extensions.

The Adelaide Bombardier Flexity Classics look (in my eyes at least) identical to the same model in Frankfurt am Main. See my photo of one there on Route 11 Nied Kirche in  Mainzer Landstraße.  Were they from the same batch or are they just a standard tram bought off the shelf by Adelaide?

[Matthew Geier]

The Adelaide Fleixty ARE the same as the Frankfurt am Main 'S' class. Adelaide basically asked the factory to turn out some more S-class trams. As the line was already tooled up, they got a better price.

They did have issues - mostly around the fact that Adelaide and Frankfurt am Main have VERY different climates, and the HVAC as supplied just couldn't cope with Adelaide's temperatures.

At least Madrid gets hot, like Adelaide.

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[David McLoughlin]

Thanks Matthew for that confirmation and further info.

 

David McL

[Mark Skinner]

As an aside, Adelaide severely underestimated the patronage increase due to the initial tram extension. It was thought that just replacing the capacity of the Bee Line bus was sufficient. 

Wrong. Bzzt. It was a case of the 'sparks effect', and passenger numbers rose strongly. 

That had the effect of encouraging another extension,  and needing more trams...in a hurry. Madrid had some spare, were the right dimensions, and Adelaide was over a barrel. They were bought for a premium price.

They bought them, and passengers like them. Thus when the extension to the Botanic Garden took place and three trams were needed, the Citadis were still available,  but at (so we are told) a very good price. Hence, those three were purchased.

However, it was all driven by urgency, rather than finding the best trams for the job long term.

Mark Skinner 

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[TP]

I remember the eye-watering price paid at the time, the Premier's assurance that it was a good deal and hoping, for his sake, that he left the management of his household accounts to his wife.

Tony P

[Mal Rowe]

On 28/12/2025 11:25, 'Matthew Geier' via TramsDownUnder wrote:
> They did have issues - mostly around the fact that Adelaide
> and Frankfurt am Main have VERY different climates, and the HVAC as
> supplied just couldn't cope with Adelaide's temperatures.
>

As I recall, the trams were delivered without sanders - later found to
be necessary.

Mal Rowe - who can tolerate anything but a Combino

[John Radcliffe]

Some were test-run in Germany before shipment - see pic of 102 attached. One car was severely damaged on the ship coming out (103) and a replacement 103 was subsequently shipped, the original being partly salvaged for parts.

 John Radcliffe

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From: tramsdo...@googlegroups.com <tramsdo...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of David McLoughlin <mcloug...@gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2025 12:43 PM
To: tramsdo...@googlegroups.com <tramsdo...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: RE: [TramsDownUnder] Adelaide Flexity trams [Was: Sydney Metro]

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[Andrew Highriser]

Weren't HVAC units replaced with more appropriate systems? Unfortunately that didn't happen with Melbourne's Siemens Combino D class trams, with its woefully inadequate cooling. The older B class with its original A/C is much better if correctly set.

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[John Radcliffe]

Yes, they were.

John Radcliffe

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Sent: Sunday, 28 December 2025 5:18 PM
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Subject: Re: [TramsDownUnder] Adelaide Flexity trams [Was: Sydney Metro]

 

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[Mark Skinner]

The State Government had little choice. They needed something immediately that was double ended, low floor-ish, and that width.

To carry on your domestic analogy Tony, it's like remembering your wife's birthday as the shops are closing, and the only shop you can get to in time is Versace. 

Mark Skinner 

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[Geoff Olsen]

Like the Varios which were fitted for but not with.

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From: tramsdo...@googlegroups.com [mailto:tramsdo...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Mal Rowe
Sent: Sunday, 28 December 2025 4:33 PM
To: tramsdo...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [TramsDownUnder] Adelaide Flexity trams [Was: Sydney Metro]

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