Yet another Sydney Citadis 'thermal event'
Matthew Geier
TP
Matthew Geier
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TramsDownUnder" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tramsdownunde...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tramsdownunder/863ee45b-e412-44f9-af69-615bce9a24f7n%40googlegroups.com.
TP
Geoff Olsen
Well, standard operating procedure. If in doubt, panic.
Geoff O.
To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tramsdownunder/8ee2feff-461f-40e9-891c-f36291970511n%40googlegroups.com.
TP
TP
Geoff Olsen
Regarding Mattew’s comment re maintenance. This misguided industrial electrician (retired) would venture to suggest that the 21 st century approach to maintenance is “Fix it when it breaks” also known as reactive maintenance and do as little as you can get away with. I worked in a number of industries which involved high speed/high volume production lines and never found that system appropriate but what would I know? Oh, just as an aside, I also was involved in maintaining safety critical systems on a nuclear reactor for a period.
Bring on the overhead in George st.
To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tramsdownunder/b0da8fc2-0db8-4a0b-a3e6-948de7f5f33bn%40googlegroups.com.
Matthew Geier
To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tramsdownunder/8ee2feff-461f-40e9-891c-f36291970511n%40googlegroups.com.
bblun...@yahoo.com
To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tramsdownunder/CAG-%3DV-KdKRDG0L7W_RLN08Q27VrXvvKB77eg2Wa7oJdjTf9%2BJw%40mail.gmail.com.
Mick Duncan
Can those Skoda trams run at full speed on the batteries?
Cheers, Mick
Matthew Geier
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TramsDownUnder" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tramsdownunde...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tramsdownunder/c07db6c8-5802-4213-b0b6-2fc2ea945a8f%40bigpond.net.au.
TP
Matthew Geier
To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tramsdownunder/ed3375d3-2c0b-47ca-a613-0e9241237a18n%40googlegroups.com.
Geoff Olsen
Different type of battery.
From: 'Matthew Geier' via TramsDownUnder <tramsdo...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, 12 July 2026 7:57 PM
To: tramsdo...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [TramsDownUnder] Re: Yet another Sydney Citadis 'thermal event'
Town Hall is somewhat higher than Circular Quay - and with our terrible traffic phasing, lots of starting on a grade.
TP
Geoff Olsen
100 years was mentioned. I don’t think that the current batteries have been available for that long…..
From: 'TP' via TramsDownUnder <tramsdo...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, 12 July 2026 9:37 PM
To: TramsDownUnder <tramsdo...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [TramsDownUnder] Re: Yet another Sydney Citadis 'thermal event'
Modern in-motion charging trolleybuses required to run some distance off-wire have the same types of batteries as modern in-motion charging trams.
Tony P
On Sunday, 12 July 2026 at 20:01:14 UTC+10 Geoff Olsen wrote:
Different type of battery.
From: 'Matthew Geier' via TramsDownUnder <tramsdo...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, 12 July 2026 7:57 PM
To: tramsdo...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [TramsDownUnder] Re: Yet another Sydney Citadis 'thermal event'
Town Hall is somewhat higher than Circular Quay - and with our terrible traffic phasing, lots of starting on a grade.
CAF have managed to avoid all-out fires, but only just. One NCL tram burned up a capacitor bank, the car was in the depot when it decided to combust, creating copious quantities of smoke, in full view of the adjacent apartment block. Apparently, by the time the fire brigade arrived, the onboard fire suppression had done its thing.
Rumours from Parramatta say a significant number of cars are in traffic with only one of the two battery packs active. While they have a whole host of other problems affecting availability, having to cut out batteries probably isn't helping any.
Given that trolley buses have had traction batteries basically for 100 years, I can't see how Alstom (and to a lesser degree CAF) can get this wrong. Trolley buses are/were not bursting into flames all over the place.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TramsDownUnder" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tramsdownunde...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tramsdownunder/5fad1f71-6c28-4d95-ab56-b6e13404557cn%40googlegroups.com.
Matthew Geier
The Sydney Citadis are using Lead-Acid chemistry, not one of the fancy modern Lithium based chemistries. The cell construction may use modern manufacturing to make the electrodes, but the chemistry has been in use a LONG time. Wikipedia says 1859 the first lead-acid battery was shown off in France.
To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tramsdownunder/00cc01dd11f3%2492211670%24b6634350%24%40bigpond.net.au.
Geoff Olsen
If they are lead acid batteries then it won’t be the batteries brewing up which points to either a maintenance issue ( loose connections) or a component (such as the charging system) which isn’t up to what is being asked of it.
On reflection one would say that just smoke coming out is not typical of a lithium Iron battery fire. They do tend to be much more spectacular.
I would assume that the brake failure at CQ which is being reported by the media would have been a failure to release rather than apply. That doesn’t make good copy of courseJ
Happy to be proved wrong on any of this.
Geoff O.
From: 'Matthew Geier' via TramsDownUnder <tramsdo...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Monday, 13 July 2026 11:23 AM
To: 'Geoff Olsen' via TramsDownUnder <tramsdo...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [TramsDownUnder] Re: Yet another Sydney Citadis 'thermal event'
The Sydney Citadis are using Lead-Acid chemistry, not one of the fancy modern Lithium based chemistries. The cell construction may use modern manufacturing to make the electrodes, but the chemistry has been in use a LONG time. Wikipedia says 1859 the first lead-acid battery was shown off in France.
.
Greg Sutherland
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TramsDownUnder" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tramsdownunde...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tramsdownunder/002601dd1267%246fe17180%244fa45480%24%40bigpond.net.au.
Matthew Geier
ONRSR is mostly definitely actively involved. They probably just haven't issued a PR yet.
There appears to limited service is running with cars with active batteries (presumably they have had some sort of enhanced inspection.) Some services are turning back at Central and Town Hall, presumably those cars have traction batteries either cut out or removed. There are now not enough available cars to run anything like a normal service.
It's relatively easy to spot cars that have the battery disabled - a 'flag' pokes out over the side of the middle module that carries the battery box.
(This photo was in the 'Track 3' loop at Central back in May. The car was providing supplementary service on the L3. It basically waited at Central for the amount of time it would take to get from Central to the Quay and back.)
But a car with a cut-out battery is not allowed to run on the APS 3rd rail due to the risk of getting 'gapped', so if they use car with no battery, they turn back a Central, easy as there is the extra track, or Town Hall, a tight turn around that messes up the timetable diagram.
Any trip is currently showing a L2 about to depart Randwick that is running only as far as Town Hall.
The same site is only showing 5 tram sets currently on the network. I think at this time of the day it should over 20. (10 each L2, L3)
2 L2 service inbound, one to terminate at Town Hall.
2 L3 outbound, and one in 1 bound. (It's near Market Street so on the 3rd rail)
To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tramsdownunder/2ff24693-f6f0-4454-be3c-6a01e73223c0%40ozemail.com.au.
TP
Matthew Geier
I've also been told there is actually around 16 sets in traffic, but their AVLS system is having a complete fit and not working properly. The real time apps will be suffering from 'Garbage in -> Garbage Out'. Some services are being turned back at Town Hall and Central. Presumably they have disabled/removed battery packs, and the few serviceable battery equipped cars are running to the Quay.
The trouble is these days the first response when something goes wrong is to make announcements saying 'check indicators and real time apps'. But when the back-end is putting out garbage data......
To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tramsdownunder/35a80c3c-58b9-40d9-8d44-e347b0b3413en%40googlegroups.com.
Geoff Olsen
But what we must keep in mind is that, unlike Melbourne, we are running a (drum roll clash of cymbals) modern light rail system for which privilege we must accept these little inconveniences.
George street north of Town Hall must of course be kept wire free for heritage reasons (Eh?) not to mention the visual pollution problem, the fatalities caused by same being uncountableJ
Geoff O. (Whose cynicism meter is at full scale deflection.
To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tramsdownunder/3231ea26-3b5a-417c-b643-397e1b7aa609%40sleeper.apana.org.au.
TP
bblun...@yahoo.com
Matthew Geier
The APS segments are about 11m long. A presentation to EA gives the active sections 4m to 8m, with 3m dead/safety zone between them.
The APS section is fed from a single sub - the overhead sections have cross feed capability, but the APS doesn't have that luxury. If that sub trips, that section is out. The batteries are sized to bridge 1 or 2 failed APS segments and at a pinch get the car to the next platform where the passengers can be 'safely detrained'.
One major maintenance issue for Sydney is the decision to put the APS power boxes in a pit under the running lines. It requires a complete shutdown of rail and road traffic to access the equipment chambers, and I suspect not only a full confined spaces working protocol, but the substation feeding has to be locked out.
So even if they had spares on hand (which it appears they don't) fitting the spares is a lot of mucking about. And I assume spares are an issue as multiple full shutdowns for 'essential maintenance' have not restored dead APS segments - they had the opportunity of a complete shutdown and didn't use it. Can only assume that despite noted failures, they didn't take the opportunity of a shutdown to fix it.
To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tramsdownunder/593683705.1101622.1783999624633%40mail.yahoo.com.
Geoff Olsen
Mattew’s last paragraph answers a question which I had thought to ask, what “Essential maintenance” is performed during these shutdowns? The answer seems to be very little as track faults don’t appear to be attended to either.
Putting the APS controls under the road makes them difficult to access as well as asking for trouble in wet weather. Yes, they would be classified as confined spaces but I would wager that a sales rep told them that these things never fail so no one will ever have to access them. Oh and we cannot keep spares on hand as that is capital tied up.
Geoff O.
From: 'Matthew Geier' via TramsDownUnder <tramsdo...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, 14 July 2026 2:51 PM
To: tramsdo...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [TramsDownUnder] Re: Yet another Sydney Citadis 'thermal event'
The APS segments are about 11m long. A presentation to EA gives the active sections 4m to 8m, with 3m dead/safety zone between them.
The APS section is fed from a single sub - the overhead sections have cross feed capability, but the APS doesn't have that luxury. If that sub trips, that section is out. The batteries are sized to bridge 1 or 2 failed APS segments and at a pinch get the car to the next platform where the passengers can be 'safely detrained'.
One major maintenance issue for Sydney is the decision to put the APS power boxes in a pit under the running lines. It requires a complete shutdown of rail and road traffic to access the equipment chambers, and I suspect not only a full confined spaces working protocol, but the substation feeding has to be locked out.
So even if they had spares on hand (which it appears they don't) fitting the spares is a lot of mucking about. And I assume spares are an issue as multiple full shutdowns for 'essential maintenance' have not restored dead APS segments - they had the opportunity of a complete shutdown and didn't use it. Can only assume that despite noted failures, they didn't take the opportunity of a shutdown to fix it.
On 14/7/26 13:27, 'bblun...@yahoo.com' via TramsDownUnder wrote:
I get regular service alerts for "trams not running between TH and CQ due to "power supply issues"".
One day last week I noticed a couple of Ausgrid trucks and LR emergency response ute peering at a hole in the ground near QVB. Services were still running, maybe on batteries?
How long are the APS segments?
Another full shutdown coming this weekend, and another couple of days of 70 capacity buses replacing 400 capacity trams at similar frequency.
On Monday 13 July 2026 at 11:18:06 pm AEST, 'TP' via TramsDownUnder <tramsdo...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
So the APS section north of Town Hall is so unreliable that trams can't run on it at all without batteries? Isn't APS that super duper power supply that was so glossily promoted over the last twenty years as the "solution" to overhead wires, swooned over by urbanistas and academics and thrust down our throats by numerous clueless promoters of "modern light rail"? I'm sure Tony G, like me, is saying told-you-so now that these snake-oil solutions-in-search-of-a-problem are falling on their face.
What a (predictable) mess - and what a shame since the whole Sydney Light Rail project has been an outstanding success in terms of patronage. But it won't last if it becomes unreliable. L1 still hasn't recovered its earlier patronage since the disastrous CAF failures. Commuters are put off by perpetual unreliability - look at Sydney Trains' declining patronage. Two shonky tram manufacturers and bungling management of the whole project by TfNSW spoil what should have been something great. And don't start me on the slowness (another problem brought to us by another French company).
Tony P
On Monday, 13 July 2026 at 18:08:31 UTC+10 Matthew Geier wrote:
I've also been told there is actually around 16 sets in traffic, but their AVLS system is having a complete fit and not working properly. The real time apps will be suffering from 'Garbage in -> Garbage Out'. Some services are being turned back at Town Hall and Central. Presumably they have disabled/removed battery packs, and the few serviceable battery equipped cars are running to the Quay.
The trouble is these days the first response when something goes wrong is to make announcements saying 'check indicators and real time apps'. But when the back-end is putting out garbage data......
On 13/7/26 18:02, 'TP' via TramsDownUnder wrote:
I guess all this wouldn't be such an issue if the APS was working reliably. Three sources of power and they can't do the job that a good tramway does with one (overhead) source of power.
Tony P
On Monday, 13 July 2026 at 17:45:34 UTC+10 Matthew Geier wrote:
ONRSR is mostly definitely actively involved. They probably just haven't issued a PR yet.
There appears to limited service is running with cars with active batteries (presumably they have had some sort of enhanced inspection.) Some services are turning back at Central and Town Hall, presumably those cars have traction batteries either cut out or removed. There are now not enough available cars to run anything like a normal service.
It's relatively easy to spot cars that have the battery disabled - a 'flag' pokes out over the side of the middle module that carries the battery box.
To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tramsdownunder/89ff3c3a-eeb4-4300-91d2-4fcd7068ee8c%40sleeper.apana.org.au.
bblun...@yahoo.com
To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tramsdownunder/008d01dd134e%24b25080a0%2416f181e0%24%40bigpond.net.au.
Brian Blunt
On 14 Jul 2026, at 15:50, bblun...@yahoo.com wrote:
The major shutdowns often relate to track repairs. A recent one involved welding up the curves from Chalmers St around to Eddy Ave.
On Tuesday, July 14, 2026, 15:07, 'Geoff Olsen' via TramsDownUnder <tramsdo...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
Mattew’s last paragraph answers a question which I had thought to ask, what “Essential maintenance” is performed during these shutdowns? The answer seems to be very little as track faults don’t appear to be attended to either.
Putting the APS controls under the road makes them difficult to access as well as asking for trouble in wet weather. Yes, they would be classified as confined spaces but I would wager that a sales rep told them that these things never fail so no one will ever have to access them. Oh and we cannot keep spares on hand as that is capital tied up.
Geoff O.
From: 'Matthew Geier' via TramsDownUnder <tramsdo...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, 14 July 2026 2:51 PM
To: tramsdo...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [TramsDownUnder] Re: Yet another Sydney Citadis 'thermal event'
The APS segments are about 11m long. A presentation to EA gives the active sections 4m to 8m, with 3m dead/safety zone between them.
The APS section is fed from a single sub - the overhead sections have cross feed capability, but the APS doesn't have that luxury. If that sub trips, that section is out. The batteries are sized to bridge 1 or 2 failed APS segments and at a pinch get the car to the next platform where the passengers can be 'safely detrained'.
One major maintenance issue for Sydney is the decision to put the APS power boxes in a pit under the running lines. It requires a complete shutdown of rail and road traffic to access the equipment chambers, and I suspect not only a full confined spaces working protocol, but the substation feeding has to be locked out.
So even if they had spares on hand (which it appears they don't) fitting the spares is a lot of mucking about. And I assume spares are an issue as multiple full shutdowns for 'essential maintenance' have not restored dead APS segments - they had the opportunity of a complete shutdown and didn't use it. Can only assume that despite noted failures, they didn't take the opportunity of a shutdown to fix it.
<image001.png>
I get regular service alerts for "trams not running between TH and CQ due to "power supply issues"".
One day last week I noticed a couple of Ausgrid trucks and LR emergency response ute peering at a hole in the ground near QVB. Services were still running, maybe on batteries?
How long are the APS segments?
Another full shutdown coming this weekend, and another couple of days of 70 capacity buses replacing 400 capacity trams at similar frequency.
On Monday 13 July 2026 at 11:18:06 pm AEST, 'TP' via TramsDownUnder <tramsdo...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
So the APS section north of Town Hall is so unreliable that trams can't run on it at all without batteries? Isn't APS that super duper power supply that was so glossily promoted over the last twenty years as the "solution" to overhead wires, swooned over by urbanistas and academics and thrust down our throats by numerous clueless promoters of "modern light rail"? I'm sure Tony G, like me, is saying told-you-so now that these snake-oil solutions-in-search-of-a-problem are falling on their face.
What a (predictable) mess - and what a shame since the whole Sydney Light Rail project has been an outstanding success in terms of patronage. But it won't last if it becomes unreliable. L1 still hasn't recovered its earlier patronage since the disastrous CAF failures. Commuters are put off by perpetual unreliability - look at Sydney Trains' declining patronage. Two shonky tram manufacturers and bungling management of the whole project by TfNSW spoil what should have been something great. And don't start me on the slowness (another problem brought to us by another French company).
Tony P
On Monday, 13 July 2026 at 18:08:31 UTC+10 Matthew Geier wrote:
I've also been told there is actually around 16 sets in traffic, but their AVLS system is having a complete fit and not working properly. The real time apps will be suffering from 'Garbage in -> Garbage Out'. Some services are being turned back at Town Hall and Central. Presumably they have disabled/removed battery packs, and the few serviceable battery equipped cars are running to the Quay.
The trouble is these days the first response when something goes wrong is to make announcements saying 'check indicators and real time apps'. But when the back-end is putting out garbage data......
On 13/7/26 18:02, 'TP' via TramsDownUnder wrote:
I guess all this wouldn't be such an issue if the APS was working reliably. Three sources of power and they can't do the job that a good tramway does with one (overhead) source of power.
Tony P
On Monday, 13 July 2026 at 17:45:34 UTC+10 Matthew Geier wrote:
ONRSR is mostly definitely actively involved. They probably just haven't issued a PR yet.
There appears to limited service is running with cars with active batteries (presumably they have had some sort of enhanced inspection.) Some services are turning back at Central and Town Hall, presumably those cars have traction batteries either cut out or removed. There are now not enough available cars to run anything like a normal service.
It's relatively easy to spot cars that have the battery disabled - a 'flag' pokes out over the side of the middle module that carries the battery box.
<~WRD0000.jpg>
To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tramsdownunder/905832188.1124490.1784008235435%40mail.yahoo.com.
<image001.png><~WRD0000.jpg>
Matthew Geier
Yes - and all trams fitted with the replacement packs are booked out of service, hence the rolling stock shortage. Two fires in one day on trams fitted NEW packs got unwelcome attention.
The new packs should not have any loose connections, so there must be a design fault in the battery bus, something they changed to prevent the original issue with overheating has caused a new overheating issue.
Several sets with cut out / removed batteries are running truncated services (From Central, as doing a rapid turn back at Town Hall is problematic)
To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tramsdownunder/0607EC6D-5D1E-4A1A-AA22-A7F67EE3C8D7%40yahoo.com.
bblun...@yahoo.com
Matthew Geier
Apparently not so when it's only every 3rd or 4th tram turning back, as they need to cross over, change ends (or change ends, cross over) and be out of the way before the next through service arrives. They can't pull that off reliably.
To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tramsdownunder/783206859.1511410.1784096726543%40mail.yahoo.com.