Infrastructure for the G class trams

[Mal Rowe]

Transport Victoria have set up a web page outlining changes to tram
stops for the roll out of the G class trams on routes 57, 59 and 82.

Details are at:
https://transport.vic.gov.au/news-and-resources/projects/next-generation-trams-enabling-infrastructure-works

I'm pleased to say that the new design for 'my stop' at the corner of
Pascoe Vale Rd and Fletcher St aligns with what I suggested to my local
MP a year or so ago.

I attach a pic of the current dangerous outbound stop.

Mal Rowe - glad

[TP]

Their capacity counts are very understated. A 25 metre tram should be able to carry about 170 passengers. They're implying that the old 15 metre trams carry about 80, which is around the capacity of a 12 metre bus. A 15 metre tram can carry about 110 passengers. A 30 metre tram can typically carry about 210-220 passengers.

Tony P

[Robert Smith]

According to Yarra Trams a Z Class can hold 70 and an A Class 65 - https://yarratrams.com.au/our-fleet-today. As for the new stops, none are fully accessible, they are all kerbside of safety stops..

Rob

[TP]

Those capacity figures are incredible. What universe do they come from? That's not even the capacity of a standard bus. I remember reading in the past something about figures calculated on comfort levels or something, but it seems hardly relevant nowadays. The W class I rode at PETS in Perth had a capacity of 150!

Tony P

[Greg Sutherland]

I note that Transport Victoria postulates:

• "The G Class trams are more comfortable, accessible and energy efficient.
• Built in Dandenong, the G Class trams are the largest investment in locally made trams in Australia’s history, supporting up to 1900 local jobs.
• The new design follows three years of user testing and feedback from nearly 1,000 participants, including accessibility advocates. "

I do not think that an 100 G class tram orders can make this claim when a quick scan of Australian constructed trams is headed up by the NSW Tramways 626 order for 'O' class trams.  These trams were delivered at the rate of two per week.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O-class_Sydney_tram#:~:text=The%20O%2Dclass%20trams%20were%20a,Bridge%20opening%20in%20March%201932

Greg

[noe...@iinet.net.au]

Turn it up, Tony. No PETS W class will ever carry 150 pax on any one trip. We very rarely allow standees so when the tram is full, the overflow waits for the next one. If there are 3 trams running, like at Easter and on the ANZAC Day long weekend, they won’t have long to wait.

 

NMF

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[Hal Cain]

The published figures for W class crush loads used to be 150 passengers.  More recent figures (even for wide-bodied cars, W5 and later) were 120. Without conductors, it was nearly impossible to achieve 120, because people were (and are) reluctant to push far from doors.  Figures above 100 for those Ws and for Zs and As are not normally achievable. "Full" loads in practice can't be achieved in normal, unsupervised loading, because doorways have to be cleared. Crush loads are purely theoretical (just the same as 20-second platform dwell times for trains) in modern conditions -- people just don't cooperate to that degree.

Hal Cain

Virus-free.www.avast.com

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[Mal Rowe]

On 11/04/2026 17:56, 'TP' via TramsDownUnder wrote:
> Their capacity counts are very understated. A 25 metre tram should be
> able to carry about 170 passengers. They're implying that the old 15
> metre trams carry about 80, which is around the capacity of a 12 metre
> bus. A 15 metre tram can carry about 110 passengers. A 30 metre tram
> can typically carry about 210-220 passengers.
>

The definition of capacity used by Yarra (and the Victorian Department
of Transport) is not the old 'crush load' that appeared in earlier
editions of Destination City and on MMTB general arrangement plans.

For example, DC4 listed a Z3 as having a capacity of 42 seats and 83
standing for a total of 125, whereas The Yarra website <
https://yarratrams.com.au/our-fleet-today >  lists the capacity as 70.

An article published about the G class design listed the capacity of the
G class as 150 - around double that of a Z3.

Yes, the G class could certainly carry more, but that would be an
overload capacity - not a design figure.

Mal Rowe - who would not want to be one of 150 in a W

[TP]

Greg, having spent many years in Victoria and having lived there, I can comfortably say that when they say "Australian', they mean "Victorian", being one and the same of course!

Tony P 

(raising his hat to all Vict... er, Australians)

[TP]

Noel, I was referring to the historical information about its Melbourne service displayed inside the W car. Good luck to PETS if you can carry 150 every trip! 

The effective capacity of a public transport vehicle is determined more by the number and size of doors than its floor area, also by whether the doors are spread from end to end, with no dead-end "caves" inside. A country bus might be able to fit 80 or 90 people on board, but if it has only one door at one end, it's basically going to be dysfunctional, having yawning dwells at stops while passengers struggle to reach the door at stops (and they won't move down to the back of the bus in the first place precisely because of this). Similarly, a door at the front and one in the middle will discourage people from moving into the cave at the back in case they can't get out when their stop comes. The phenomenon of crowding around and near doorways is a symptom of there not being enough doors (viz. Sydney double-deck trains, or Sydney buses with two doors down the front and a cave up the back). These design principles were elegantly expounded by Sydney's tram designer, Fergus Nicholls Maclean, in his 1930s papers. His R/R1 classes with end-to-end distribution of doors could carry 110 passengers.

So, I would have thought that the Melbourne Z and A trams with three doors should be able to practicably carry their theoretical capacity - provided the doors are evenly spaced end-to-end and all double-leaf. The G class undoubtedly has enough floor space for 170 people, but the constraint I see is that the end doors (a tick for having them at all) are only single leaf and the passenger flow inside is constrained by a narrower section of aisle between the swivelling end bogies. Pushing the end bogies to the very ends of the car would resolve this issue.

Tony P

[Malcolm Miles]

How many passengers in this well-known image? Was it staged?

 

Best wishes,

Malcolm

 

[Richard Youl]

Around 1990 for a few years there was a fireworks display at Albert Park called Skyshow or something like that one Saturday night each year. 

Believe me, when it ended, St Kilda Rd trams to the city were just like that. I didn’t like people hanging off the outside of my tram but there was no way to get them off, so I just drove carefully to the city. 

I think there were extra trams running on those nights, but nothing could cope with the rush. 

Richard

On 12 Apr 2026, at 10:38 pm, 'Malcolm Miles' via TramsDownUnder <tramsdo...@googlegroups.com> wrote:



How many passengers in this well-known image? Was it staged?

 

Best wishes,

Malcolm

 

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<Melbourne_tram_surf.jpg>

[Matthew Geier]

There is a story at Loftus - a coach load turns up and wants a ride, so the museum OIC on the day says, 'no problem, we will put on an 80-seat toast rack for them, that will fit the coach load, no problem'. The problem is the tram built to carry carry 80 1920-sized people, not 80 2000-sized people. There were complaints.

There is quite a difference between the maximum 'safe' load and what most people consider reasonable. Next time you get in a passenger lift, look at the compliance plate and imagine what it would be like loaded to the maximum passenger count as listed on that plate. The lift in one of the buildings near me has a legal passenger limit, I think would not be physically possible even if the passengers all 'liked one another'. The lift is rated to carry heavy equipment as well as passengers, and I'm pretty sure they derived the passenger count by dividing the goods lifting capacity by the weight of a 'standard' reference passenger.

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[Mal Rowe]

On 12/04/2026 22:38, 'Malcolm Miles' via TramsDownUnder wrote:

How many passengers in this well-known image? Was it staged?

Not staged.

The pic is from the collection of the Australian War Memorial and the tram is heading north up Brunswick St to a match at the Fitzroy football ground during WW2 when petrol rationing was at its peak and so was tram passenger loading.

Note also the other tram ahead and the crowd on the roadway.

Mal Rowe who reckons that modern management would have OH&S conniptions

[Geoff Olsen]

I also heard a story at Loftus regarding the average weight of people in the 1950s. The figure quoted was about that for a year six primary school student (or a jockey!) Having been alive at the time I disagree that everyone was lightweight then. Diet included more sugar and fat not to mention that per capita beer consumption was much higher. A compartment in a Sydney O could carry an amazing number of people who were not always small and I speak from personal experience. I think in fact that you could fit more average people in a given space now than you could then.

 

The load ratings of lifts and the like are, for obvious safety reasons, set so that they will safely carry far more that will physically fit in the car. That of course is good engineering practice.

 

Geoff O.

 

From: 'Matthew Geier' via TramsDownUnder <tramsdo...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Monday, 13 April 2026 8:00 AM
To: tramsdo...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [TramsDownUnder] Re: Infrastructure for the G class trams

 

There is a story at Loftus - a coach load turns up and wants a ride, so the museum OIC on the day says, 'no problem, we will put on an 80-seat toast rack for them, that will fit the coach load, no problem'. The problem is the tram built to carry carry 80 1920-sized people, not 80 2000-sized people. There were complaints.

 

There is quite a difference between the maximum 'safe' load and what most people consider reasonable. Next time you get in a passenger lift, look at the compliance plate and imagine what it would be like loaded to the maximum passenger count as listed on that plate. The lift in one of the buildings near me has a legal passenger limit, I think would not be physically possible even if the passengers all 'liked one another'. The lift is rated to carry heavy equipment as well as passengers, and I'm pretty sure they derived the passenger count by dividing the goods lifting capacity by the weight of a 'standard' reference passenger.

 

.

[TP]

Some of the last trams along Anzac Pde, Sydney in 1961 were loaded like that Melbourne tram.

Of course the standards have changed over the years as average weight and size of passengers (and the advent of backpacks) has increased. 4 persons per square metre standing (and all seats full) is now the commonly accepted standard load in the western world, but capacity is also measured at 6 or 8 ppsm, the last being at football event levels and almost impossible to achieve - and, on top of that, the number and distribution of doors is important to making carrying such loads practicable if anybody needs to get on or off along the way. The single virtue of the Citadis trams in Sydney is that they're rated at 6 ppsm because of the number, width and spread of doors.

Apart from the practical test in that Sydney crossbench tram, I've also noticed, in comparative photos looking along the aisles of R/R1 class cars taken when they were still operating and today at Loftus, how everybody fitted neatly in the seats in the old days, but now the aisle is narrowed by bulging thighs and shoulders. Of course it's important to talk of these matters discreetly.

On one of my visits to Škoda Transportation they told me how they were assessing standing capacity by marking a one metre square on the floor and getting various numbers of staff, dressed as though travelling, to stand in the square. The tests usually ended when they couldn't stop people laughing and grabbing each other as they tried not to topple out of the square. Try it at home sometime!

I don't think any of this explains those strangely low current capacity figures for Melbourne trams though.

Tony P

[mick...@gmail.com]

Try a visit to Mumbai where they have "Super-dense crush load" conditions on their suburban trains, where 14 to 16 passengers stand per square meter. These sorts of figures are unimaginable to me - people must really "like" each other.

(31) Mumbai Suburban Rail – Overcrowding and Capacity Enhancement | LinkedIn

[Brent Efford]

Wellington, Sept 1959 – returning from the match, no doubt after seeing the All Blacks beat Australia.

Brent Efford – lone kiwi lurker

[Mark Skinner]

Is that a green jersey in that pic under those trucks? 🤔🤣

Mark Skinner 

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[TP]

Green? It's probably the same Irish one that derailed a Citadis in Dublin a few years back.

Tony P

[Mal Rowe]

On 13/04/2026 09:07, 'Geoff Olsen' via TramsDownUnder wrote:

A compartment in a Sydney O could carry an amazing number of people who were not always small and I speak from personal experience. I think in fact that you could fit more average people in a given space now than you could then.

Melbourne never took to cross bench cars after the 1906 Brill trams and trailers used on the VR and NMETLCo lines.

The only other close example was the 4 P&MTT copies of the Adelaide D type, which P&MTT quickly sold to the HTT and were later sent 'back home' to Adelaide.

However, the MMTB did consider some designs for "Cars for use ... during crush load periods".  

I attach the draft sketches.

They were for "Standing Male Passengers Only" with women (and men hoping for a seat) expected to take other trams - with seats - interspersed with the standee only trams.

Their estimated capacity was 80 to 90 men standing within pipe framed corrals or just open space.

Designs ideas C and D provided for a central slightly raised platform to enable the conductor to collect fares,

There is no date on the drawings but it clearly dates from the early1920s before the W class design.

Mal Rowe in a city where trams sill 'eat crowds'

[Mal Rowe]

On 14/04/2026 10:58, Mal Rowe wrote:
>
> There is no date on the drawings but it clearly dates from the
> early1920s before the W class design.
>

There IS a date - at bottom right hand corner of the drawing - 14
September 1921

[TP]

" Mal Rowe in a city where trams sill 'eat crowds' "

How can they eat crowds when they're given such arbitrarily low capacities by the authorities? Are those capacities actually enforced?

Being arbitrary comes at a cost. The capacity of Sydney's standard buses, about 80 by design, took a dive, first when the RTBU restricted the number of standees, then with battery electrification, due to weight. The capacity is now down in the low 60s. 

In Brisbane, where the RTBU apparently apparently holds itself to a different standard, the maximum allowed capacity of the double-artics is 170. If the Melbourne standard applied, it would be very difficult to convince them to invest in trams. Melbourne isn't doing the case for trams a favour by publicly floating those ridiculous figures.

Tony P

[Mal Rowe]

On 14/04/2026 11:23, 'TP' via TramsDownUnder wrote:

How can they eat crowds when they're given such arbitrarily low capacities by the authorities? 

Are those capacities actually enforced?

You suggest the answer to your own question. 

There is no enforcement and the Es in particular handle more than their specified capacity (Not maximum capacity) every day when the public servants board quickly at Spring St and head down to the city centre on the free trams.

Mal Rowe - satisfied passenger

[Matthew Geier]

But you are not going to encourage people out of their cars by packing them onto trains and trams 'like sardines'.

Many would rather sit in traffic and bitch about congestion than stand on a train that gets them there in half the time it takes to drive.

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[TP]

Mal, that's good to hear that common sense prevails. It's not a good look on paper because, although there is less opposition to trams nowadays, like the slowness perception, it only takes one nut to see this and say - look at this, trams don't even carry as many as a bus.

Matthew, when road congestion and shortage of parking become too much, people will be pushed over to public transport, no matter how crowded. So far, Sydney is the only Australian city to have reached that point, but Melbourne can't be far behind. In any case, your claim is disproved by the way Sydney people have abandoned the double deck trains with more seats for standing cheek to jowl in metro trains because they prefer speed, frequency and reliability over getting a seat. Even in weekends, when people are more likely to drive, they're now looking at increasing the metro frequency from 10 minutes to 7 minutes because of crowding. Again down to road congestion and lack of parking causing slow and difficult car journeys. 

Tony P

[Mick Duncan]

Gday  Richard, All

When I was at Camberwell,in the 60s,we did footy specials for the MCG,laying up at the Simpson St Siding and after the game,they poured out and got on and often rode on the step,the Braid let them and sometimes the trams never actually stopped

I liked doing these specials,1/2 a shift on OT Sat Arvo

Cheers,     Mick 

[Steven Altham]

I was at East Preston depot 1987 to 1989 I remember doing skyshow on route 10 st Kilda to west Preston passing trams going away from St Kilda the back cabins were full W class then 

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[Peter Bruce]

Finals 1970.

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[TP]

Touche!

https://www.nfsa.gov.au/collection/item/sydney-tramways-randwick-racecourse-crowds-c1928

Tony P

[espee8800]

They were the days Peter, never a tramie but enjoyed the spectacle from the footpath.

cheers and best wishes,
David in Avenel.au,    
[Before you change anything, learn why it is the way it is.]

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[Mick Duncan]

Gday  Mal, All

You should have posted the Footy Tram dia on the 1st of April

Cheers,    Mick

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