Melbourne Free Tram Zone in the Guardian

[Alan Cooper]

The Free Tram Zone (Melbourne CBD) has got a mention in the Guardian.

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2025/jan/12/melbourne-free-trams-experiment-decade-critics

I do not expect anything to change.  The FTZ is like negative gearing:  counterproductive and damaging but popular.  It is politically impossible to get rid of it as doing so would cost too many votes.

[TP]

The problem is not the FTZ. The problem is that YT has too little tram capacity to move crowds. The whole fleet should be 30 metre trams. Instead, not only is there still a large legacy fleet of bus-size trams, but the problem is being perpetuated with the G class.

Tony P

[Andrew Highriser]

Tony, the tram capacity for Melbourne's busiest tram street is adequate, as it is for other tram streets. It is the management and unevenness of the service that's the problem. Once the Metro Tunnel opens, who knows what tram passenger loading will be. Most of Melbourne's tram problems come down to very poor management that operates the system to meet performance targets, rather than what is best for passengers. I believe former Premier Kennett in the 1990s was the one who first set performance targets, and so took away the power of hands on management to do its best to manage the system for passengers. 

Andrew. 

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[TP]

But if capacity is adequate, why do people have trouble boarding trams? I agree that trams should move along any street at regular close intervals to avoid any individual tram becoming overcrowded because there was a long interval behind the previous tram. There should be a tram every five even minutes through a CBD at minimum.

Tony P.

[Mal Rowe]

On 13/01/2025 21:08, 'TP' via TramsDownUnder wrote:
> The problem is not the FTZ. The problem is that YT has too little tram
> capacity to move crowds. The whole fleet should be 30 metre trams.
> Instead, not only is there still a large legacy fleet of bus-size
> trams, but the problem is being perpetuated with the G class.
>

Sorry Tony, but Daniel Bowen has it right.  The free tram zone just
clogs up trams with people who could easily walk a couple of blocks but
choose not to.

A free zone ticket for tourists and eliminating the free ticket for
locals would be a good compromise.

Locals who travel to and from the city by public transport already have
a 'free ticket'.

As I have said before longer trams just won't work on the two main north
south routes in Swanston & Elizabeth Sts - their length means that only
one tram at a time could fit in the tram stops and that would destroy
the timetable.

William St gets away with E class because there is only one route using
the street.

Mal Rowe - trusting local knowledge.

[TP]

I simply don't understand how the system can't accommodate the extra crowds. It just seems that there's something profoundly wrong. If you can't use longer trams, then you should provide more of them.

Tony P

[Richard Youl]

Somebody who has not been to Melbourne for well over 40 years can have no idea how the place works.

Richard

On 14 Jan 2025, at 5:52 pm, 'TP' via TramsDownUnder <tramsdo...@googlegroups.com> wrote:



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[Robert Smith]

TP, Do you see a E Class heading down Glenhuntly rd Elsternwick, and negotiate the curves at the Carnegie terminus?, or the East Mavlern terminus on RT3. there is a large number of routes that end in small side streets.

[Robert Smith]

Andrew,

I don't believe that the opening of the Metro tunnel will affect tram passengers numbers for those heading into the city. It will be quicker to get a tram from ANZAC Station to the CBD then head down into the station catch the train and then head back to surface level, with the removal (?) Of the transferring of some Swanson Street route to the west side of the city, I can't see any relief for CBD trams in the near future.

[Andrew Highriser]

Robert, it is hard to imagine what the general public will do when the new underground opens. There are many St Kilda Road workers who catch trams from Flinders Street Station who will have come in from the Dandenoung/Cranbourne train lines, along with from the Sunbury line. While I live close to Anzac Station and of course I've thought about whether I will use the new line to get to town, I really don't know. A tram might be quicker but it depends where in the city I want to go. The train to the northern end of the city might be quicker, but probably not to Flinders Street. After attending the open day for Anzac Station, it seems to be quite a simple and quick process to get to a train platform, but then how long to wait for a train has not been announced yet, and what is the exit process like in the city stations?

Fortnightly I catch a 58 tram to South Yarra Station and a train to Murrumebeena on the Dandenong line. Once Anzac Station opens, I will just use Anzac Station. The mobs of MGS and MacRob students will no longer crowd the 58 tram to and from South Yarra but use Anzac Station. Alfred Hospital workers on the aforesaid line who catch the 58 tram from South Yarra to Fawkner Park and walk to the hospital will stay on to Anzac Station and catch a tram from there. 

I don't think any modelling can predict how people will use the Metro Tunnel, but it will certainly be a game changer. 

Andrew.  

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[TP]

It's about 15 years. If people can't get on trams there's something the government isn't doing enough of.

Tony P

[espee8800]

Remembering that the trains are - currently every 10' not more frequent - whereas the multiple routes in St Kilda Road have a much better headway.

And when you get to the city you are "dumped" in the street possibly right outside where you wish to go. Not many metres underground where you then have to thread through the crowds to an escalator having possibly waited for 7 or 8 minutes for a train. This sort of headway is the same as in Sydney.

On Tue, 14 Jan 2025 at 19:45, Robert Smith <rksmi...@outlook.com> wrote:

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cheers and best wishes,
David in Avenel.au,    
[Before you change anything, learn why it is the way it is.]

[timmy1041]

Why do we here in Melboure jump into defensive mode every time that someone from elsewhere has a different idea or cans the way the trams operate,fresh eyes or a new perspective can often be a good thing.Melbourne tramways have basically operated the same routes,same headways almost with little or no improvements or extensions to infrastructure,yes with a few exceptions, agreed ,but our tramway system is now lagging behind other systems now particularly european systems of similar size ,we seem to tak the talk but not walk the walk.How is it that some current european systems can run 30 -60 meter trams on narrower streets than us  with multiple routes seemingly without drama with connecting tracks at most junctions and seem to be constantly updating everything yet we can't even extend a tram line less than 1 KM to a railway station or even a 300 meter connecting track that would be a game changer for the network.It defies logic.The original cross city link proposal from 1992 would have revoloutionised the system and sorry Mal but could have longer trams in Swanston st without screwing the timetable by adopting the original proposal put forward some years ago when the E's started to arrive by having a dedicated 5 min shuttle along St.kilda rd/Swanston st  and having the southside routes operate to St.kilda rd only as feeder routes with layouts similar to the Arts center in the middle of each stop with a center terinating track with a couple of routes continuing on to west of the city destinations..So simple to implement but we don't like change here in Victoria....24 hr clearways,morepedestrian malls in the city etc etc we need to move with the times,platform/level access stops are a prime example,i could go on,even the proposal to run the 96/109 through Flinders st station a golden opportunity missed in my book.

On Tuesday, 14 January 2025 at 12:12:37 UTC+11 Mal Rowe wrote:

[TP]

Very well said timmy, but I don't want to be seen as criticising the Melbourne tram system in its fundamentals.  It's a very competent system with a lot of knowledge and experience behind it, unlike any of the other Australian "light rails". I think the issue is governments that, as you say, talk the talk but not walk the walk. When you know the legacy European systems with which it compares, you see them relentlessly moving ahead in a way that Melbourne doesn't. This is because city councils and governments are behind them and put their money where their mouths are. Improvements like "last km" extensions to railway stations and shopping centres are routine for them. In Melbourne it doesn't even seem to be discussed.

And yes, I notice the defensiveness whenever I raise this! Probably because I'm from Sydney, but it's not a debate about whose system is better - indeed I'm embarrassed for the way the new Sydney system is operated. I'm just asking why? It just doesn't make sense compared to any other city I know. The trams should be able to easily cope with extra crowds, but for some reason they don't. As for the attitude that people who take advantage of a free service (actually paid for by their own taxes) are "freeloaders"- that's just disgusting. How are we to encourage more people to use public transport if that's our attitude towards potential customers?

Tony P

[Geoffrey Hansen]

I remember trams being crowded in the Free Travel Zone or whatever you call it in Adelaide.

Regards Geoffrey

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[Radcliffe, John (Environment, Waite Campus)]

In Adelaide, it is all free except that part of the Glenelg route between South Terrace (entering parklands reservation) and Brighton Road (leaving the reservation.

 

The trams replaced the previous “Bee Line” bus on a city circuit, also free, but the tramline is now extended from that to the Hindmarsh Entertainment Centre west, and the Botanic Gardens on North Terrace, going east, as well as King William Street and Jetty Road Glenelg.

 

John Radcliffe

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[TP]

John, does Adelaide, as a result, have a problem with tram capacity, causing Glenelg commuters to be unable to join trains because they're overcrowded with "freeloaders"?

Of course, there's always this :))

https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/real-life/man-thinks-he-can-beat-adelaide-tram/video/3d7c92e555f730212d659d519fdb029b

I remember, some years ago, an Advertiser journalist beat the tram through the city centre on foot.

Tony P

[Radcliffe, John (Environment, Waite Campus)]

Tony – I am not aware that is a problem, but I am probably not the right person to ask as I do not travel to Glenelg often. The main problem would be in the morning with people getting on at the railway Station, North Terrace, and going a couple of stops up King William Street to work. But the demand on those trams would be in the afternoon with Glenelg commuters wanting to go home. The Adelaide CBD is largely between the adjacent Rundle Mall and Pirie Streets stops, not spread along the whole of King Williams Street, whereas in Melbourne, my impression is that there is more of a CBD stretch from Spring Street to Spencer Street.

 

I often drive up King William street to get from one side of the city to the other, coming from King William Road on the south side of the city, and find the trams keep up fairly well with the traffic flow as they have no priority except turning into North Terrace west, If I am going into the city, I use the bus, my bus parallelling the tram route from south of Greenhill Road. Travel times on the bus or tram appear similar in that section.

 

John Radcliffe

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