CBD and South East Light Rail

[Semi-Retired Foamer]

Hi all,
         I am trying to compile the current fleet listing for the CBD and South East Light Rail line (L2 and L3).
  Does anyone know if all 60 vehicles are currently considered to be in service?

  I've been able to confirm all but 01, 15, 16, 19, 21, 29, 30, 31, 43, 44, 57, 58.
  Though I suspect most of those I probably just haven't came across yes.

Can anyone help?

Thanks 

Brad

--

Semi-Retired Foamer Media

Maroochy Shire Tramways SIG - Former Railways of the Sunshine Coast.
Semi Retired Foamer Blog - 4 Decades Of Transport
Australia Locomotive Rosters
Philippine Railway Historical Society Blog
Philippine Railway Historical Society Website.
Trains For Kids With Cancer.

 

[Matthew Geier]

The original Urbos 3 are having ongoing issues, and at least 4 Citadis are out with water damage from a flood on Anzac Pde, a handful of others have various faults that are keeping them off the road.

Frequently, the LX school shuttles get cancelled due to a lack of rollingstock.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TramsDownUnder" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tramsdownunde...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tramsdownunder/CAJvtgznsvMkTchmW5%3D%3DrcDFmLRqJbUREsY-s5tNMCYyO%2BuO8jQ%40mail.gmail.com.

[TP]

Time to call in PTV who have had prior experience at both sacking Transdev and procuring decent trams.

Tony P

[TP]

Recent comments I've read about service quality and rolling stock shortages due to vehicle failures on the light rail on this and other forums lead me to look at the reliability statistics again. Hitherto, without looking too closely, I've seen that light rail reliability has been, on the surface, reasonably good - better than buses and suburban trains, but not up to the level of metro and ferries.

However, a closer look reveals some surprising qualifications on this.

https://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/data-and-research/passenger-travel/sydney-light-rail-performance-reports

Like other modes except metro, which is held to an exact standard, light rail gets a statistical leg-up with a 4 minute tolerance on time and the general target is 97% of services running on time within that definition. Not much of a standard for a mode that runs in its own exclusive lanes, but there we go.

Within those parameters, we see that:

L1 consistently fails to meet its on-time running targets, though I figure that it's "saved" from contractual questioning by the 4 minute tolerance. This is a line that, not only has its own street lanes, but is a grade-separated "railway" for the majority of its length and has a generous stipulated journey time of 37 to 38 minutes, which is about 5 minutes more than the journey should need for that length and number of stops. Ye gods, what does it take to lose punctuality in that operating environment? I think it takes Transdev, which has been operating L1 in the same lackadaisical way for 25 years.

L2/L3, on the other hand, has consistent 99% punctuality, which sounds absolutely marvellous until you read the fine print that shows that it has been allocated 37-40 minutes to complete the journey, which is 10-15 minutes longer than the journey should take if it is run competently (indeed the timetable says about 32 minutes). Quite obvious shifting of the goalposts by TfNSW there, to protect the contractor, not the customers whose interests they are supposed to be acting in.

L4 is a good laugh. It started off with about 98% reliability and then in August 2025 reliability dropped off a cliff. Turn to the small print and we see shifting goalposts again. Until April 2025, it was given 35 minutes to complete the journey, then till July 32 minutes and then from July 29 minutes, a trip easy to accomplish for the length, number of stops and part of it being grade-separated "railway". This time, in fairness, TfNSW shifted the goalposts to raise the performance expectation, favouring the customer, but the operator hasn't been able to follow through.

It's impossible to get internal information about what's happening, but from the rate of vehicle downtime, an engineering assessment might be that they're finding that those fixed bogie trams are taking a costly toll on both themselves and the tracks and have to be slowed right down on curves (of which there are plenty on L4), thus extending journey times. There could be other competence issues of course, we don't know.

Generally, a potentially great system, let down by poor execution. It hasn't done L2/L3 patronage any harm though as it's booming. L1 patronage still hasn't fully recovered after covid and Parramatta is looking encouraging, but too early to reach firm conclusions, especially as some supporting projects in Parramatta, notably the metro, are yet to be completed. Above all, we should bear in mind that the decision to replace bus routes with light rail is still a good one as the trams routes carry much more patronage and have much more capacity than pretty much any bus route in Sydney.

Tony P

[Matthew Geier]

At the risk of offending people I know who work there, Parramatta is
best described as a 'clown show'.

It would appear rolling-stock availability is terrible - with long waits
for spare parts to repair accident damage.

It's looking like CAF budgeted a certain amount for spares and is
sticking to it, no matter what.

L4 has had more traffic accidents in 12 months than L2/L3 has had in 5
years.

They have also had a significant amount of petty vandalism, with
internal and external panels pulled off. One 'fun' trick is the 'coupler
riders' they stand on the fiberglass cowling and hang on to windscreen
wipers, the cowling breaks under the weight and as they fall they yank
the windscreen wiper off. That car is them out of service till both
items are replaced.

[TP]

That's a shame. However, an incentive for CAF (as a partner in the consortium) is that if they don't provide the contracted service level, they will be fined. 

Tony P

[Matthew Geier]

They have better lawyers than TfNSW. They are probably claiming that the vandalism and the large number of traffic accidents are 'Force majeure'.

[Semi-Retired Foamer]

Thanks for all the responses.
Some interesting comments there.
Am supposed to be taking in Parramatta next Monday. Hopefully something is left running :-)

On Thu, 19 Feb 2026 at 15:57, 'Matthew Geier' via TramsDownUnder <tramsdo...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

They have better lawyers than TfNSW. They are probably claiming that the vandalism and the large number of traffic accidents are 'Force majeure'.

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TramsDownUnder" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tramsdownunde...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tramsdownunder/CAG-%3DV-JCaLbHyWQX0UReMtwKr9jtT_CH0dm%3D5qbUiO8H%2BsZ9MQ%40mail.gmail.com.

[David McLoughlin]

Semi-retired Foamer wrote:

>  Am supposed to be taking in Parramatta next Monday. Hopefully something is left running :-)

I visited Parramatta in July last year specifically to see the trams there for the first time. An interesting system with some substantial street running.  Of particular note, the signs at pedestrian crossings warned people to "Watch for Trams"  exactly like the ones in Melbourne. See attached photo. There used to be signs with the word "tram" at several parts of the three Sydney city lines but all seem to have gone and the signs refer only to "light rail"  or "trains" even when using the tram symbol.

Maybe someone here knows why trams can be called a tram in Parramatta but not in the Sydney city and inner suburbs?

[Matthew Geier]

On Tue, 24 Feb 2026 at 07:25, David McLoughlin <mcloug...@gmail.com> wrote:

Maybe someone here knows why trams can be called a tram in Parramatta but not in the Sydney city and inner suburbs?

TfNSW had a 'bee in their bonnet' about the term 'tram'. Trams were those things we got rid of in the 1960s and they are NOT coming back.  For a while during the CESLR construction phase, every time someone said tram on Social Media, the project Social team would immediately leap in with 'it's not a tram it's a light rail'.

By the time the Parramatta line started, they had given up the whole 'it's not a tram' thing, as the public refused to be 'educated' :-)

[Robert Taaffe]

I raised the same issue at I think the Easter Show some years ago and correct they do not like TRAM but apparently it is a legal term I the Australian Real Rules and legislation.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TramsDownUnder" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tramsdownunde...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tramsdownunder/CAG-%3DV-%2BobsO5os_1eTHBGqWJGi%3DkTVKRThi_WALrHzPFsuZmtA%40mail.gmail.com.

[Greg Sutherland]

You also had the 'hatred' of Melbourne  and informed people in Sydney who kept on noting technical and operational shortcomings of the heavy rail consultants who TfNSW rolled out as their experts.

"WE ARE BUILDING LIGHT RAIL NOT TRAMS."

One of the classic moments of the expert consultans era was when the Roads and Traffic Authority informed TfNSW that their LR signs did not conform with Australian Standards and must be replaced by 'TRAM' signs just like Melbourne and Adelaide!

Greg

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TramsDownUnder" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tramsdownunde...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tramsdownunder/CAG-%3DV-%2BobsO5os_1eTHBGqWJGi%3DkTVKRThi_WALrHzPFsuZmtA%40mail.gmail.com.

[Robert Taaffe]

ButMelbourne does have “Light Rail"

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tramsdownunder/6252003c-ea8d-4269-9065-3c4e199cf353%40ozemail.com.au.

[Mal Rowe]

On 24/02/2026 10:12, Robert Taaffe wrote:

ButMelbourne does have “Light Rail"

The terms 'tram', 'light rail' and 'Metro' are undefined in legislation and thus meaningless.

This makes them easy fodder for publicists.

Mal Rowe attaching a pic of a Victorian light rail operation.

[Vera Mills]

Hello,
When compared to heavy rail, everything about light rail is light
except for the rail.
If the rail is light the ride would be too rough. Or to put it another
way, unless one has deep pockets, light rail can only be purchased for
a higher price than heavy rail.
Regards,
Glen Mills

> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TramsDownUnder" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tramsdownunde...@googlegroups.com.

> To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tramsdownunder/355fdb08-35f9-4e11-a4f2-53c22cb34877%40gmail.com.

[TP]

Every time I see the sign "watch out for light rail", no matter how closely I study the rails, I can't figure out which is the light one. One day I nearly got hit by a tram while studying the rails though.

"Tram", "tramway" and "tram lane" are the relevant and only legal terms in the road rules nationally and TfNSW, being also the roads and traffic authority in NSW, should know better. In fact, they're highly irresponsible if installing safety signage referring to "light rail". Indeed, if I survived the impact, it would be a good case to test in law, in the spirit of Roy Dotrice in "Misleading Cases".

Canberra is another one where they get upset if you call them trams. What's the situation in Gold Coast?

https://classic.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/sa/consol_reg/arr210/s155.html

https://classic.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/sa/consol_reg/arr210/s155a.html

Tony P 

[bblun...@yahoo.com]

And if you attempt to use the level crossings along the L1 line:

https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tramsdownunder/02c3d3ae-03e2-45f4-bd4c-f20c860fa50fn%40googlegroups.com

.

[David McLoughlin]

Tony P wrote:

 

• Canberra is another one where they get upset if you call them trams. What's the situation in Gold Coast?

 

I was there in November 2023 and they seemed fine with trams. See the “Watch for Trams”  sign on the crossing at the far left of my attached photo. Many other such signs were in evidence.

[TP]

Separate roads agencies in other states, legalistically following the legislation. The standard ideogram showing an old-fashioned drop-centre tram must also be extremely irritating to those trying to promote systems as "modern light rail". I remember when Canberra opened, the CEO of Canberra "Metro" (ironically named) was being quite passive-aggressive with journos referring to "trams". 

Tony P

[Mal Rowe]

On 24/02/2026 15:32, 'TP' via TramsDownUnder wrote:
> Separate roads agencies in other states, legalistically following the
> legislation. The standard ideogram showing an old-fashioned
> drop-centre tram must also be extremely irritating to those trying to
> promote systems as "modern light rail". I remember when Canberra
> opened, the CEO of Canberra "Metro" (ironically named) was being quite
> passive-aggressive with journos referring to "trams".
>

The CEO may not like the term or the ideogram but Canberra uses the
Australian Standard signs and lights (with "T for Tram".

Mal Rowe in the city whose tram is the basis of the ideogram

[Tony Galloway]

The silly “Look out for trains” signs on the L1 remain on the “railway” section of the line because standardised road sign rules don’t apply there. I’ve never heard anyone refer to a “train”, only “tram”, sometimes “light rail” on the L1.

So the PR didn’t work, seems like if it looks like tram and dings like a tram, it’s a tram.

Tony

> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TramsDownUnder" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tramsdownunde...@googlegroups.com.

> To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tramsdownunder/0b6209cb-acd2-4af3-b32c-5e72e3f45209%40gmail.com.
> <Canberra- T light and sign.jpg>

[Jeremy Wainwright]

Meanwhile, elsewhere in Sydney, at the UNSW High Street stop on the L2, you can see this - the unapologetic use of the dirty word 'Tram' incorporating a natty representation of a 'modern light rail vehicle'!

JWW

---

From: 'Tony Galloway' via TramsDownUnder <tramsdo...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, 24 February 2026 16:14
To: tramsdownunder <tramsdo...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Sydney "tram" signs was [TramsDownUnder] CBD and South East Light Rail

 

> To view this discussion visit https://kor01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgroups.google.com%2Fd%2Fmsgid%2Ftramsdownunder%2F0b6209cb-acd2-4af3-b32c-5e72e3f45209%2540gmail.com&data=05%7C02%7C%7C96d4cefb59d54efe7daf08de73639893%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C639075068760808431%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=IiVYerziNaAl63MFlPvUFOuwHI62X85poZ6tLZVkd6k%3D&reserved=0.

> <Canberra- T light and sign.jpg>

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TramsDownUnder" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tramsdownunde...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion visit https://kor01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgroups.google.com%2Fd%2Fmsgid%2Ftramsdownunder%2F5056C90F-BDC0-4610-91C7-6FA0F2AA3608%2540aapt.net.au&data=05%7C02%7C%7C96d4cefb59d54efe7daf08de73639893%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C639075068760827110%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=s5Z4ozAW2dQc%2B80QFhZqr4HD2%2BCxmJ1yPRY%2B6Bmz8f0%3D&reserved=0.