thanks

[tl lover]

as both a tradelink.org contributor and a pracplay person, i want to thank everybody on the group w/respect to this project.  even though many people on the group are misinformed about glean and whether it changes tradelink....  in the largest sense it doesn't matter because you demonstrated the power of individuals.   because of you the benefits of open source are clearer than anything tradelink founders could have acheived.  pracplay is more commited than ever to open source, and if you need objective proof look no further than our commit frequency and commit size.   long live open source!

-josh

http://tradelink.org

[Ted Penner]

I'm sorry Josh but anyone who trades knows that the only source code that matters is the one in the strategy being developed. If you don't allow users to see that source code, then you cannot consider your product open source.

More about this issue soon to come at marketcoding.com. Simply inquire there or our twitter page for more information.

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[Joshua Franta]

Regardless of whether the platform is open or closed, *nobody* wants their strategies to be open source.    

Users want their strategies to be seen only by themselves and whomever they decide.

​

[Ted Penner]

Exactly!  Rather than only by the maker of Tradelink, which is the way it is today.

-Ted R Penner
www.tedpenner.com
(254) 214-3013

On Mon, Jun 2, 2014 at 8:01 PM, Joshua Franta <jo...@pracplay.com> wrote:

Regardless of whether the platform is open or closed, *nobody* wants their strategies to be open source.    

Users want their strategies to be seen only by themselves and whomever they decide.

​

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[Joshua Franta]

"Users want their strategies to be seen only by themselves and whomever they decide".

My statement most definitely applies to tradelink and glean, otherwise I wouldn't have said it.

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[Ted Penner]

I agree.  It is my recollection that Glean hid the source code, but then I haven't looked at it in over 2 years.  I'd love to try it again if it doesn't.

-Ted R Penner
www.tedpenner.com
(254) 214-3013

[Joshua Franta]

I'm responding here is because I'm glad a group tried to fork tradelink, for two reasons :

One, a fork better demonstrates what open source is and the value of it.   There are probably folks like ted who are still learning about open source code vs regular code, for example.  (and high level source vs low level source, see below)

Two, the forkers now understand tradelink.org costs time and money to create and maintain.  Like most professional open source projects, these costs are born mostly by commercial organizations (listed on tradelink.org main page).   All the code writing, patching, collecting, integrating and testing over thousands of users is not easy, and I hope the fork increases awareness of this.

With respect to glean, the purpose of Glean is the same as the purpose of tradelink, but 10x more so because it's operating at a higher level.  Let me explain.

Just like tradelink.org gives you a base trading platform as if you made it yourself, without the time or dollar effort required to do it... Glean extends the same benefit to creating strategies ontop of the platform.   Let me say this again :

tradelink.org = trading platform.  vastly reduced time/dollar cost

glean = profitable strategy creator.  vastly reduced time/dollar cost

How does this work?   With glean you can build and test strategies on a [limited] amount of real money, in minutes and hours versus days and weeks.   These strategies don't just compile and run, they run consistently multiple historical and live environments, across many different simulators, brokers and feeds.  Glean also covers the cost of being able to scale up a working strategy to trade on the entire market (at 250 symbols per machine).    All these benefits are delivered via Community Glean, which is free to everyone, unlimited in historical testing and a limited amount of real dollar buying power.    When you do scale your strategy up to increased amount of capital, you don't have to do anything except go through a couple of clicks to lease more buying power in your design.    Which since you're already making money if you do this, shouldn't be an issue (not to mention this is also how we help keep making both tradelink and Glean better)

At far as what Ted is referring to, sometimes we can't always tell.   I believe Ted maybe referring to a completely separate feature of Glean that is rarely used, which is the ability to unlock a strategy once for one price so that it runs outside of Glean.   We offer this feature simply because we can and it's differentiated.  eg  If you run easy language and you want to keep your strategy but without the easy language interpreter, you can't do it.   This is mostly because people running in retail platforms don't need this level of sophistication so they don't offer it.    However we cater to a higher end client who occasionally can benefit from the massive amount of flexibility offered by a glean unlock + tradelink.org.    That said... we don't recommend it generally because you lose all the productivity and de-risking benefits of Glean.  However if you wind up starting a hedge fund and hiring a ton of people it's available for you (or if you make a ton of money and want to take a year off and don't know what you'll do when you get back, it's there for you).

Anyways.... sorry for the long email but I wanted to drop a line.   We've worked very hard building a community that hopefully is the most productive, the most open, and the most flexible.    You've helped demonstrate at least the the last two bits via this fork, but you can do so much more if you actively use Glean (and/or contribute to the base tradelink.org platform).    We obviously don't maintain forks or provide technical support for them, but just wanted to drop a line and say we're not done, in many ways we're just getting started and what we do in the future we hope will change the world.     Still even though we may have more resources than many individuals, our resources are not limitless so we do benefit from an active and positive community.   If you like what you hear and want to experience it, I suggest you install Glean, join the Glean forum at http://community.tradelink.org and work with us so we can all make more money and have more free time together.   We're not going to be like everybody else because we're trying to be better.

thanks for your time and good luck with your trading,

-josh

http://tradelink.org

[Ted Penner]

You haven't solved the basic problem in that you ADVERTISE the Tradelink strategy 'builder' (i.e. Glean) as an open source product.  I get that, and it may be.

What is NOT open source is the strategies themselves, and that is all a trader should care about having. Once you have created a strategy in your 'high-end' product, you can't see the underlying code. This is a huge problem if you advertised as if it was open-source.

You should say simply that the platform behind Glean and associated products is open source, but the trading STRATEGIES that your builder puts together, ARE CLEARLY NOT OPEN-SOURCE!!

Ted R Penner
Systems Analyst
www.marketcoding.com

-Ted R Penner
www.tedpenner.com
(254) 214-3013

[Wilhelm Stroods]

not to mention that Glean is a steaming pile of crap. 

[Joshua Franta]

Hey Ted.... where this link that is confusing you about Glean being open source?   If you can provide this I'll happily look into it.    We have thousands of people that have used Glean and this is not a common complaint or we would have corrected it, but I'm happy to look into it if you can provide that.

With regard to trading strategies themselves.... we already discussed how all trading strategies are a users edge.   Something that is open source can't be an edge, because everybody has it.    This is why on every trading platform- including glean- trading strategies are private to the user.   The user decides whether he wants to share them with anyone else  (or not).     So for example in Glean, your 'my designs' area contains your designs aka strategies.   No one can see these but you (not even pracplay).   Your designs are only visible to others if you share them in the 'community' area.  You said you understood this but it seems like some confusion remains, so hopefully this helps you.

On Tue, Jun 3, 2014 at 2:05 AM, Ted Penner <tedp...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Joshua Franta]

Hey wilhelm thanks for the feedback.   Glean users put in around 1 million minutes of Glean use every month, so we definately get plenty of feedback but have to say I haven't heard this feedback before.    Perhaps you could be more specific about what you dislike about Glean?

You can submit feedback instanteously in Glean using Ctrl+H, it will submit a screenshot and log automatically along with your comment.

I looked back at our user correspondence I don't see any from you, couldn't even find that you registered Glean.

definately let us know if you experience any problems.

[Rick May]

I'll tell you what I don't like about Glean.  Since its introduction, the mailing list as it once was, has been removed and posting non Glean issues/questions in the current system is discouraged.  Documentation for Tradelink seems to have disappeared from the website, along with portions of the software.  Glean has been forced down our throats.  How an Open Source product can force a for-profit application in the same install is disturbing.  Additionally, I'm no expert on open source licenses, but I'd think that intertwining Glean code into TradeLink code violates that license.

I don't have a problem with you trying to make some money for all your time and effort.  I just have a problem with how you've gone about it and how you've done this at the detriment of TL itself.

[Ted Penner]

Unfortunately, I'm not being paid to work for you.  I've tested it and what we found is that the strategies created with the Tradelink 'builder' you call Glean, is that once you have used it to create a strategy, you cannot see or edit the source code behind the strategy directly.

You can't.  I've said it over and over, sent screenshots to prove it.

If you say it can then prove it. Send me a video that shows how you can see and edit the source code for the strategies themselves without purchasing an 'UNLOCK' key, to OPEN the source code that you claim to be open source.

The strategies Glean produces are NOT OPEN SOURCE>

-Ted R Penner
www.tedpenner.com
(254) 214-3013