more on tuning...

[adam]

hey all...
i see there's been some discussion on toy piano tuning here. has
anyone ever tried filing around the base of the toy piano rods (where
there is an hour glass like shape) to try and make the notes more
flat? someone told me in theory this should work... also has anyone
had any luck using an actual electronic tuner to pickup the tone/note
from the rods? i've tried many different types of tuners with
different microphones and none seem to be able to "hear" the note from
the rods...perhaps due to overtones? i could maybe do it by ear, but
it would be nicer to have more accuracy. if anyone has advice, please
let me know. thanks!
~adam

[JeanDavid]

On May 27, 1:47 pm, adam <adam.schutz...@gmail.com> wrote:
> hey all...
> i see there's been some discussion on toy piano tuning here. has
> anyone ever tried filing around the base of the toy piano rods (where
> there is an hour glass like shape) to try and make the notes more
> flat?

I have not tried that. Bear in mind that part of the "charm" of a toy
piano
is that they are slightly out of tune (and each one is different). Now
on mine,
two notes were so flat as to be unbearable to me. The highest A# was
the
same pitch as the A below it. So I sharpened (shortened) it by using a
small
grinding wheel in a Dremel tool. I tried with a file first, but it was
too slow.

I wrote to Schoenhut about tuning and their view (at least at the
time) was that
grinding them is a good way to sharpen the notes. They suggested
increasing
the mass at the free end of the rods to flatten them. Fortunately,
none of my notes
are so sharp that I want to do anything about them.

I would hesitate do do anything to the rods where they enter the
block. There is
more to this than just the length of the rods. The relationship of the
place where the
hammer hits the rod to the block matters. If you were to grind the rod
thinner between
the hammer and the block, you will disturb the standing wave pattern
in the block
and may spoil it. You could also increase the likelihood of it
breaking. If yours is like mine,
there is probably no way to get the rod out of the block other than
drilling it out, and if you
did that, you could not fasten a new one in there tightly enough. They
seem to heat the block,
chill the rods, And let the block cool down. (That is my guess.)

As far as tuning went, I tried tuning it with a set of 12 tuning forks
I had, but the waveform of a
toy piano rod is very complex, and I did not have good results that
way, so I just
tuned the notes I was fiddling with to my Yamaha P-85 by ear.

[Ricardo Rabadan Paz]

About the filing to flatten notes out, I've never heard of the approach you mention. I really don't know if it would work, but I'd love if someone would confirm this.
 
About the tuners, I can tell you that the same thing happened to me. Just be sure to mute the other tines, so that only the tine you are tuning will vibrate, and try to hit it with the "cleanest" stroke you can, with something other and more precise than the piano key. Try it several times until you get a reading that is more or less the same through a bunch of tries. Every once in a while you will get invalid readings, but keep trying, you'll know when you get valid ones. It's kind of a "statistical" way of tuning.
 
Anyway, remember: toy pianos aren't meant to be perfectly in tune. That's something I've learnt in this forum. So don't be afraid to try and tune by ear.
 
And always, triple check, think a lot, and then some more, before filing a tine. Even have someone give your their opinion first. Filing a tine can't be undone; the method of adding springs at the end of the tine does not work, trust me. It changes the timbre of the tine, and it doesn't flatten it, it's a real mess.

 
> Date: Fri, 27 May 2011 10:47:13 -0700
> Subject: more on tuning...
> From: adam.sc...@gmail.com
> To: toypia...@googlegroups.com

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[ngcline]

Hi everyone,

I just stumbled onto the group.  I've been working on a set of tines with an altered tuning (specifically just intonation).  I thought I might contribute some of my ideas.

The overtone structure of every toy piano I've played have a very prominent 2nd partial sounding a 12th above the fundamental.  This partial is so strong that if you use an electronic tuner (or pitch tracking in Max/MSP), more likely than not the tuner will read the pitch of the 2nd partial.  But as already said, this overtone mix is part of the charm of the toy piano.

As far as tuning metal rods, I've learned these rules from Bart Hopkin, author of Musical Instrument Design:

To raise the pitch: either remove mass from the end of the rod or add mass to the base of the rod.

To lower the pitch: either add mass to the end of the rod or remove mass from the base of the rod.

The rods are cone-shape near the base to significantly lower the pitch, otherwise the rods would need to be very long.  This is also why marimba bars are deeply scalloped on the bottom.

I've had better results by removing rather than adding, but both work with lots of fine adjustments.

However, as already said, it could be risky altering the rods near the base which might increasing a risk for breakage.  The other problem is that this will disturbe the overtone mix, so the notes may be in-tune with each other, but the overtones of individual might be in a less harmonic relationship (which might be good or bad).

Is anyone else out there interested in alternative tuning for toy piano?  I think an ensemble of toy pianos with gamelan-like tunings would be terrific.

Thanks,

nick