Re: Change in https://tos-dr.info/legal.html

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mic...@michielbdejong.com

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Dec 6, 2012, 4:59:13 AM12/6/12
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Hi Hugo,

you wrote:
> I would like to propose that we postpone the vote until we have a clear proposal.

This would be a bit easier if you would actually propose one. :) Now I have to guess what it is that you want...

I think your objection to the current phrasing is that there is no description of *how* the public group (i.e. this mailing list)
decides that it's time for a vote, meaning that anybody could organize silly votes, just to troll. That's a fair point, so to protect
against that let's say:

"A vote will be organized if at least at least three members agree that one is needed."

Just to be clear, any phrasings that refer to 'Unhosted e.V.' are not an option, because that e.V. has been made sort of dormant,
and also its members are unrelated to this project. This project is now independent, with its own community, so we have no choice
but to change it now. But what we change it *to*, you have 14 hours left to propose any improvements you want to make to the phrasing.


Ciao!
Michiel

mic...@michielbdejong.com

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Dec 6, 2012, 10:00:34 AM12/6/12
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Another option would be "a vote can be organized by any member of the team" as defined on http://tos-dr.info/about.html#contact

I think it's all a bit academic to be honest, we just promise to hold a vote whenever there is a serious proposal to change something. Can you explain in a bit more detail what the problem is?

Hugo Roy

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Dec 6, 2012, 10:09:39 AM12/6/12
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Le jeudi 06 décembre 2012 à 09:00 -0600, mic...@michielbdejong.com a
écrit :
> Another option would be "a vote can be organized by any member of the team" as defined on http://tos-dr.info/about.html#contact
>
> I think it's all a bit academic to be honest, we just promise to hold a vote whenever there is a serious proposal to change something. Can you explain in a bit more detail what the problem is?
>

I propose that we change
Votes
All polls shall be organised by Unhosted e.V.
(http://www.unhosted.org) and announced on www.tos-dr.info; and
announced at least 10 days in advance by email to the public
group.

to

Votes
All polls shall be organised by a member of the team
(http://tos-dr.info/about.html#team) and announced at least 10
days in advance on www.tos-dr.info and by email to the public
group.

I would also like to change

Definition of contributor
A "contributor" is any person, excluding legal persons (e.g.
corporations), who wrote at least one email to the group at
least 30 days before the start of the poll.

and move that section after the "vote" to

Definition of Contributor
A Contributor is any person, excluding legal persons (e.g.
corporations), who wrote at least one email to the group at
least 90 days before the start of the poll.


If that proposal is accepted. You can count this email as my vote

+1
--
Hugo Roy
French Coordinator, FSFE chat: hu...@jabber.fsfe.org
www.fsfe.org/about/roy mobile: +336 08 74 13 41
mobile DE: +49 151 143 56 563

mic...@michielbdejong.com

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Dec 6, 2012, 7:30:48 PM12/6/12
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Great! Thanks Hugo. OK, so we will be voting for the change Hugo proposed. Votes are now open since a few minutes ago if my watch is correct, and for the next 24 hours. I vote: +1

Robin Monks

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Dec 6, 2012, 7:46:13 PM12/6/12
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I vote no, due to the lack of definition of "team". There seems to be no community involvement in how the team is chosen or tasked. Perhaps I am misunderstanding the process, but, if that's the case then I'd still vote no until it can be explained in a proper detail.

-1


On Thu, Dec 6, 2012 at 8:30 PM, <mic...@michielbdejong.com> wrote:
Great! Thanks Hugo. OK, so we will be voting for the change Hugo proposed. Votes are now open since a few minutes ago if my watch is correct, and for the next 24 hours. I vote: +1

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mic...@michielbdejong.com

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Dec 7, 2012, 4:17:55 AM12/7/12
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Hi Robin, that's a fair point about Hugo's proposal - so can you make a counter-proposal? What text would you like to see? Let's try to find a phrasing that everybody's happy with. Something simple and short that is not too complicated and reflects common sense of how we would organize such a vote in practice.

Robin Monks

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Dec 7, 2012, 7:43:21 AM12/7/12
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How about...

Votes 
            All polls shall be organised by Unhosted e.V. 
        (http://www.unhosted.org) and announced on www.tos-dr.info; and 
        announced at least 10 days in advance by email to the public 
        group. 

to
 
Votes 
            All polls shall be organized by a Contributor announcing the intention to create a poll to the public email group. The poll shall occur if not less than three people agree to a vote using the final text of the given poll within a seven day period of the final text being posted. The poll shall take place and be officiated by a Team member no less than 10 days from a poll being organized, and no more than 25 days. Team members maintain special privilege to call a poll at any time as long as said poll is announced 10 days prior. No poll shall be valid if less than three Contributors cast votes.

Keeping Hugo's re-definition of contributor (repeated for sanity)

        Definition of contributor 
            A "contributor" is any person, excluding legal persons (e.g. 
        corporations), who wrote at least one email to the group at 
        least 30 days before the start of the poll. 
        
and move that section after the "vote" to 
        Definition of Contributor 
            A Contributor is any person, excluding legal persons (e.g. 
        corporations), who wrote at least one email to the group at 
        least 90 days before the start of the poll.  

Finally an addition,

Definition of Team member
A Team member is any person, excluding legal persons:
a) who is listed on the team page of the project website (http://tos-dr.info/about.html#team
b) who has been granted write access to the project's source code repository (https://github.com/didnotread?tab=members)
c) in a special circumstance, where no team member posts a poll within 26 days of its valid creation, a Team member can be created by a 70% voting in an announcement to the public email group. Such a Team member shall have the roll of Team member for a period of 180 days.


Thoughts?

/Robin 

mic...@michielbdejong.com

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Dec 7, 2012, 11:19:20 AM12/7/12
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Hugo, do you agree with Robin's phrasing? Please either agree or propose adjustments. I'm prolonging this vote until 24 hours after Robin and Hugo agree. I am ok with all phrasings proposed so far.

Hugo Roy

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Dec 7, 2012, 11:23:19 AM12/7/12
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or

> b) who has been granted write access to the project's source code
> repository (https://github.com/didnotread?tab=members)

This next paragraph is a bit strange to me.

> In a special circumstance, where no team member posts a poll within 26
> days of its valid creation, a Team member can be created by a 70% voting in
> an announcement to the public email group. Such a Team member shall have
> the roll of Team member for a period of 180 days.


I would just leave that out. We will sort out later when we have a good
structure how to handle changes. For now, we just make a small fix
because the Unhosted e.v. is going to stop its legal existence.

Anyway we have to delay this to a new vote, as the vote was supposed to
be today but there was no clear proposal.

Best regards,
Hugo

Robin Monks

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Dec 7, 2012, 11:28:33 AM12/7/12
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My thought is simply to plan out long-term scenarios to account for things like: "what if the website goes down?", "what if GitHub becomes inaccessible?", "How can the community survive if most current team members leave, vanish, etc". I'm fine with leaving out (c) from the Team member definition for the time being. Not everything has to plan for every scenario at once.

/Robin



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Hugo Roy

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Dec 7, 2012, 11:34:35 AM12/7/12
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Le vendredi 07 décembre 2012 à 12:28 -0400, Robin Monks a écrit :
> My thought is simply to plan out long-term scenarios to account for things
> like: "what if the website goes down?", "what if GitHub becomes
> inaccessible?", "How can the community survive if most current
> team members leave, vanish, etc". I'm fine with leaving out (c) from the
> Team member definition for the time being. Not everything has to plan for
> every scenario at once.
>

Yes, I agree with that.

Michiel proposed the change because at the end of the year, for fiscal
reasons, we need to shut down the e.V. So the urgency commands the
change. Let's change it again later when we have something solid ;)

So Michiel: will you organise the vote for the next 24 hours based on
Robin's proposal (with a slight modification: "add the OR between a) and
b) and remove c)?

Robin Monks

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Dec 7, 2012, 11:47:04 AM12/7/12
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Understood, one last change in my suggest would be to switch "Team members maintain special privilege to call a poll at any time as long as said poll is announced 10 days prior." to "Team members maintain special privilege to call a poll at any time as long as said poll is announced no less than 10 days prior." (including "no less than ").

/Robin

Hugo Roy

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Dec 7, 2012, 11:56:55 AM12/7/12
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Le vendredi 07 décembre 2012 à 08:47 -0800, Robin Monks a écrit :
> Understood, one last change in my suggest would be to switch "Team
> members maintain special privilege to call a poll at any time as long
> as said poll is announced 10 days prior." to "Team members maintain
> special privilege to call a poll at any time as long as said poll is
> announced no less than 10 days prior." (including "no less than ").

Yeah, that makes sense :)
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