La Traviata, Toscanini's approval

[Kenchan@WINDOWS10]

We have La Traviata on LP and CD.

 

I wonder if Toscanini approved the version as sold by RCA.

 

There are too many “cuts” and they enabled to be on two LP’s and two CD’s.

 

According to the precious data Luciano prepared, Toscanini played La Traviata only twice after the war; 1946 12 1 and 1946 12 8. Both were broadcast. Before them, the last time Toscanini played La Traviata was 1928 5 20 at La Scala.

 

I think the opera was broadcast in two parts without any significant cut, but on CD, derived from LP, many cuts were introduced so that the opera could be contained in two LP’s.

 

Said all this, Toscanini might have approved the recording of full version but not the version as was sold.

 

Following the Ricordi score, I could not find any “cut” (Tagliabile) .

 

I have Turandot score (only score I have of Puccini’s operas), and there are several indications of “tagliabile” so that the performers can choose to cut (eliminate) the part indicated “tagliabile”.

 

However, I do not remember any “tagliabile” in Verdi’s scores.

 

Another reason I wonder if Toscanini had approved the “commercial” version is Aida.

 

In act 4 scene 1, there was a mistake of sequence in Sacerdoti choir beginning with “Radames, Radames, Radames” on LP LM6132, which I have in my LP stock.

 

So, I think Tasocanini might have approved the recordings as was demonstrated by RCA but not the versions on commercial market.

 

What do you think?

 

Ken

 

[Ezio Maria Ferdeghini]

If I Remember well, It was Stravinskij to induce a reluctant Toscanini to accept the pubblication of the opera as derived from the broadcast. The cuts were chiosen by Toscanini to fit the time of the broadcast ( 1hour). And the dates reflect the two parte in which the performance was divided. I do not know why he did not integrate the cuts, for the record publication.

Toscanini wished to present also a tradition of the previous century: the cadenza of the First act duetto Un dì felice eterea, Is sung with inverted parts: tenor sings the soprano and viceversa.

Also the rehearsal includes the cuts and changes (CD issued by music &arts)

Ciao

Ezio

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[Kenchan@WINDOWS10]

Ezio,

 

Thank you for the information.

 

I do remember that the duet was sung with inverted parts. I tried to find where but in vain.

 

Maybe it was in some CD or LD when various artists who worked with Toscanini were interviewed.

 

Cheers,

 

Ken

[Kenchan@WINDOWS10]

Bailey,

 

Thank you for the information.

 

I also found that Toscanini introduced all these cuts.( see Harvey Sachs’ new biography pp974 & ff in Italian version or pp789 & ff in the original English version).

 

Toscanini wanted to redo the recording with a different soprano, in a more comfortable (less tense than broadcast) situation and without those cuts.

 

Therefore, it is my mistake that I wondered if Toscanini approved the commercial edition.  As a matter of fact, he did.

 

It is a great pity that this project did not realize.

 

The reason why this was not realized is written in the following paragraph of Harvey’s book

 

I am very sad Toscanini compromised to accept these cuts.

 

I do not possess Schirmer score.

 

The cut I am most regrettable with is the cut of the second part of Addio del passato.

 

The second part for me is the real exclamation of Violetta’s distressed heart: la tomba ai mortali di tutto e’ confine! Non lacrima o fiore avra’ la mia fossa, non croce col nome che copra qust’ossa...non croce, non fior... ah ! della traviata sorridi al desio, a lei, deh perdona, tu accoglila, o Dio !

 

To eliminate this second part is for me criminal.

 

I cannot understand the word “desio”, Luciano or Ezio, please help.

 

I think this aria is the only part where the title word “La Traviata” is used. Therefore, this is the most important aria of this opera.

 

However, looking for YouTube, even Maria Callas sings eliminating the second part.

 

The only soprano who sings completely this aria is Angela Gheorghiu :

 

Verdi: La traviata / Act 3 - "Addio del passato" - YouTube (click)

 

This seems to be an extract from the full version played by Solti.

 

And I feel very much satisfied with Solti and Gheorgiu who did not eliminate any note in this aria.

 

With Ricordi‘s orchestra score Toscanini jumps from page 356 to 359. There is no indication of “tagliabile” here.

 

I think , therefore, Toscanini wanted to retake the Traviata.

 

It is a pity that there is any tendency to “shortening” the entire opera.

 

Some twenty or more years ago, my wife and I visited Praha where we had a chance to attend La Traviata at Opera House there.

 

At the last part of the opera, where Violetta dies, all singers did not open mouth, even if Verdi requires to be sung.

 

I found later that this is a current tendency to show that this scene is not actual but it is only dream of Violetta.

 

Ridiculous!

 

Ken

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

From: B Bailey <bbail...@gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, July 8, 2023 8:16 AM
To: Kenchan@WINDOWS10 <epea_pt...@ybb.ne.jp>
Subject: Re: La Traviata, Toscanini's approval

 

The cuts Toscanini takes in the two broadcasts (and they are as broadcast and are reflected in the rehearsals) were the standard cuts of the time. Met broadcasts of the 1930s and 1940s (and indeed into the 1950s) almost always have exactly the same cuts. The Schirmer vocal score I have indicates all those standard cuts. Nothing that Toscanini performed was left out of the lp or cd issues.  

 

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[Ezio Maria Ferdeghini]

---------- Forwarded message ---------
Da: Ezio Maria Ferdeghini <ferd...@gmail.com>
Date: sab 8 lug 2023, 07:41
Subject: Re: La Traviata, Toscanini's approval

To: Kenchan@WINDOWS10 <epea_pt...@ybb.ne.jp>

Desio=desiderio. Desire. It Is a poetic form.

About the finale, many performances of that age did include the city of the second parte of Addio del passato, and leave the last vocal notes to Violetta, without the tenor bariton and bass comments (è morta ecc)

Ezio

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[Kenchan@WINDOWS10]

Ezio,

 

Thank you for “desio”. I presumed so but could not find the word in my Italian-English dictionary.

 

You mention “e’ morta” but I think you refer to Dr. Grenvil’s “e’ spenta”.

 

Violetta’s last word is “gioia!”. I do not think it is a good way to finish this tragedy.

 

Ken

 

 

From: Ezio Maria Ferdeghini <ferd...@gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, July 8, 2023 2:41 PM
To: Kenchan@WINDOWS10 <epea_pt...@ybb.ne.jp>
Subject: Re: La Traviata, Toscanini's approval

 

Desio=desiderio. Desire. It Is a poetic form.

 

About the finale, many performances of that age did include the city of the second parte of Addio del passato, and leave the last vocal notes to Violetta, without the tenor bariton and bass comments (è morta ecc)

Ezio

Il sab 8 lug 2023, 07:29 Kenchan@WINDOWS10 <epea_pt...@ybb.ne.jp> ha scritto:

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[Brian B]

I think desio refers to Violetta's desire or wish to be pardoned and gathered in God's arms. Traditionally, a courtesan wouldn't be accorded sacred ground for burial, no cross, no flowers.

I agree, the omission of all singing after Violetta's death is stupid but that too is heard (or not heard!) on broadcasts and recordings going back to the earliest documented examples. That was one tradition Toscanini wasn't willing to concede. 

Luisa Tetrazzini made an early recording of 'Addio del passato' with both verses around 1910 or so (I can't check the date now) which suggests she sang them in performance. 

If Toscanini had recorded Traviata on the studio, I wonder who would have been his soprano? Albanese was the standard Met Violetta at the time;  Bidu Sayao recorded only for Columbia. Perhaps Novotna?

It's worth noting that Lucrezia Bori had done Traviata with Toscanini and when she heard the broadcasts she said, "He sure didn't conduct it like that in 1913!" By which I've always figured she meant the tempi were much faster in 1946 than they had been 33 years later. 

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From: toscanin...@googlegroups.com <toscanin...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Kenchan@WINDOWS10 <epea_pt...@ybb.ne.jp>
Sent: Friday, July 7, 2023 10:56:49 PM
To: 'Ezio Maria Ferdeghini' <ferd...@gmail.com>
Cc: toscanin...@googlegroups.com <toscanin...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: RE: La Traviata, Toscanini's approval

 

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[Kenchan@WINDOWS10]

Brian,

 

Thank you for feedback.

 

It's worth noting that Lucrezia Bori had done Traviata with Toscanini and when she heard the broadcasts she said, "He sure didn't conduct it like that in 1913!" By which I've always figured she meant the tempi were much faster in 1946 than they had been 33 years later. 

 

This is very interesting.

 

About tempi in Traviata, you can find an interesting statement by Peerce: pp112-113   Haggin’s  “The Toscanini Musicians Knew” Horizon Press 1980.

 

Cheers,

 

Ken

[Luciano Crivello]

In the Aida on LP it is not the sequence that is wrong, but a phrase that is repeated and another omitted. But that was fixed in the CD version. In the original broadcast the sequence is correct. As for the Traviata, the edition published on LP is identical to the two broadcasts (and Rehearsal). The cuts made by Toscanini had been motivated to stay within the times allowed by the radio schedules. However, the arias of the tenor and the baritone cut out probably did not please Toscanini. Also in Falstaff there is a variation between the broadcast and what was released on disc, but it was an error to be corrected (Dr. Cajus's entrance at the beginning of the first act).

Regards

Luciano

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[Kenchan@WINDOWS10]

Luciano,

 

Thank you for clarification.

 

About Aida, you’re right. I just did not have to play LM6132 on my stereo.

 

As for La Traviata, Toscanini did not like the cut out of tenor, baritone and soprano (Annina) and their voices are on CD.

 

Cordiali saluti,

 

Ken

 

From: toscanin...@googlegroups.com <toscanin...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Luciano Crivello
Sent: Saturday, July 8, 2023 4:07 PM
To: toscanin...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: La Traviata, Toscanini's approval

 

In the Aida on LP it is not the sequence that is wrong, but a phrase that is repeated and another omitted. But that was fixed in the CD version. In the original broadcast the sequence is correct. As for the Traviata, the edition published on LP is identical to the two broadcasts (and Rehearsal). The cuts made by Toscanini had been motivated to stay within the times allowed by the radio schedules. However, the arias of the tenor and the baritone cut out probably did not please Toscanini. Also in Falstaff there is a variation between the broadcast and what was released on disc, but it was an error to be corrected (Dr. Cajus's entrance at the beginning of the first act).

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[chez_toscanini]

Sorry for the mistakes, I wrote on the smartphone and sometimes it corrects words. More I was just awaken. The correct phrase is: About the finale, many performances of that age did include the cut of the second part of Addio del passato, and leave the last vocal notes to Violetta, without the tenor bariton and bass comments (è spenta ecc).

For some conductors the contrast between Violetta's call to joy and the music in minor mode is dramatically interesting, without the four living persons on stage (including Annina) underline the fact she is dead.

Toscanini's Traviata has a magnificent Violetta-Giorgio Germont duet, and other pages which justify the work of Stravinsky to convince Toscanini

Ezio