RCA Toscanini Original Master Tapes lost ?

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From John H. Haley article :

"There is another less obvious reason why Toscanini’s recordings have largely languished in the digital era, and that is the fact that some number of Toscanini’s original master tapes are reportedly missing from RCA’s (now Sony’s) vaults. The story that has circulated about this situation is that a former employee, now a minor conductor located in Europe, assuming he is still living (who shall remain nameless for present purposes), checked them out of the RCA archives and simply never returned them. Thus a good many (all?) of the original master tapes appear to be lost. This is obviously not a situation that Sony would have wanted to disclose, but the veracity of this story has been supported by the lackluster sound quality of the various efforts to reissue Toscanini’s recordings in the digital era. Improvements have been made, to be sure, but not the kind of improvements that would spark any kind of reassessment of Toscanini’s recorded legacy. For the most part, at least up until now, the view that one must make a lot of allowances for the sound quality when listening to Toscanini’s recordings has remained in force. "

[chez_toscanini]

For what is known, many original sources were destroyed in the '60s. The Philadelphia recordings are obtained from secondary sources, although Sony, in its last restoration made a quite good work with the available material.

However, if you listen to various cds of the RCA complete collections, especially whose sources were 78rpm discs, the noise still available is a sign of records which are not the best copies. Some collectors probably have better records in better conditions, but RCA did not want to provide a wider search, maybe for the pressure to close the Toscanini chapter as soon as possible.

IMHO

Ezio

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I heard about destruction of 78rpm materials....but I was in the hope the original tapes from 50' were still in the archives.

In the las 20 years, all the historical conductors have major editing cd box released from original sources. Cantelli  Steinberg, Ormandy, Furtwangler many times and once again in 2022...and a long list. It is quite crasy te to see a major conductor like Toscanini without nothing....

[chez_toscanini]

If I remember well, also the two great Toscanini editions were the declared for the most part from original sources. But in the last edition they used the JVC restorations, too, which were not from original sources...

[Ad Musicam]

It could be of crucial importance to know about the unpublished takes. Destroyed or still waiting in a vault ?Of course, many major Toscanini legacy work is still unknown in the unpublished takes. I would be so happy to heard the all studio Beethoven 7 takes, the Debussy prelude from 1953 and the various unpublished RCA recordings.

[largo_57]

I put together a list of unpublished NBC Symphony recordings with the RCA Victor matrix numbers, courtesy of Michael Gray. Have I left anything out?

THE UNISSUED NBC SYMPHONY COMMERCIAL RECORDINGS

 

 

Beethoven: Leonore Overture No. 3

Recorded December 19, 1944 in Studio 8H

Matrices D4-RC 683/5

 

Beethoven: Symphony No. 2

Recorded December 18, 1944 in Studio 8H

Matrices D4-RC 565/72

 

Beethoven: Symphony No. 7

Recorded July 19, 1945 in Carnegie Hall

Matrices D5-RC 6/15

 

Beethoven: Symphony No. 7

Recorded October 27, 1947 in Carnegie Hall

Matrices D7-RC 7888/97

 

Berlioz: Rakoczy March

Recorded May 14, 1941 in Carnegie Hall

Matrix CS 065308

 

Berlioz: Damnation of Faust – Ballet des Sylphes

Recorded December 16, 1947 in Studio 8H

Matrix D7-RC 8233

 

Berlioz: Queen Mab Scherzo

Recorded May 12, 1947 in Carnegie Hall

Matrices D7-RC 7511/2

 

Berlioz: Queen Mab Scherzo

Recorded June 12, 1947 in Studio 3A

Not listed in Gray NBC Symphony discography

 

Debussy: La mer

Recorded March 4, 1947 in Carnegie Hall

Matrices D7-RC 7339/44

 

Debussy: La mer

Recorded December 2, 1947 in Studio 8H

Matrices D7-RC 8043/8

 

Debussy: Prelude to the Afternoon of a Faun

Recorded February 17, 1953 in Carnegie Hall

Master tape number unknown

 

Mendelssohn: Midsummer Night’s Dream – “You spotted snakes”

Recorded November 4, 1947 in Carnegie Hall

Not listed in Gray NBC Symphony discography

 

Wagner: Tristan und Isolde – Prelude to Act I

Recorded May 12, 1947 in Carnegie Hall

Matrices D7-RC 7508/9

RCA Victor also assigned matrix numbers to several of the NBC Symphony broadcast performances (such as the Sibelius 4th Symphony), presumably in the hope of Toscanini approving their issue.

[Luciano Crivello]

Correct.

But the Berlioz Scherzo Queen Mab 1947 and Tristan Prelude 12 May 1947 (with the Prelude which transists into the final measures of the Liebestod) are circulating among collectors.

Probably in the movie (also in youtube) "The Maestro Revisited) (Bell Telephone Hour) there are few seconds (video and audio) of Mozart's Musikalischer Spass 29 December 1939.

Regards

Luciano

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[Luciano Crivello]

Correct.

But the Berlioz Scherzo Queen Mab 1947 and Tristan Prelude 12 May 1947 (with the Prelude which transists into the final measures of the Liebestod) are circulating among collectors.

Probably in the movie (also in youtube) "

Regards

Luciano

Il 04/11/2023 01:58, 'largo_57' via Toscaninifriends ha scritto:

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In the Berlioz Mab Scherzo from 1947, it seems there is a "curious" patch in the beginning of the source Ezio put on his youtube channel.

The 30 first seconds of the recording have the not the same sound of the rest, a much more "8-H" sound. After this it sound very different, with a "Carnegie Hall" perspective.

For the few Mozart Musikalischer spass, how can we be shure it is really a Toscanini recording. It is not in syncronisation with the video fragments, and such a legendary recording is not in the "Toscanini Legacy". As Walter Toscanini was involved in the documentary, it seems curious such an important recording was aviable for the editing of the film and absent in Walter Toscanini recordings collection.

But perhaps it could be a true one ??

Many thanks for your respons,

Regards and best remembering,

Christophe.

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Many thanks for your very accurate respons with great matrix numbers infos!

Many years ago, Alan Stecker spoke in a Toscanini gtoup about the possibility of an efition of unknown official recordings.

I was dreaming about a "Toscanini rediscovered" volume in the great serie published at the time.....but nothing appeared...

I realy dream about the Beethoven  second symphonie, the two seven and Debussy La Mer!!...

You can probably add the movments of Beethoven second symphonie from november1949 Toscanini rejected to record again in 1951.

If all of this was destroyed it could be a dramatic lost for musical history.

Of question, there is the documentation about Toscanini studio recordings in the Toscanini Legacy.

We have an accurate list of the content of broadcast and live recordings but, as far I know, nothing about the studio recordings test pressing owned by Toscanini...

Christophe.

[Ezio Maria Ferdeghini]

Dear Christophe, ny Alzheimer is running, of course, but which recording in which channel?

Ezio

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[Ad Musicam]

Sorry for the mistake,

I was thinking about a channel in youtube but, after a verification, it is from "Daniela", ...my own memory was wrong!

Christophe.

[Ezio Maria Ferdeghini]

Ah ah no problem, glad to be on top of your thoughts🤣🤣

Ezio

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