1.6.0 commit dialog

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Nikola Smiljanic

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Mar 24, 2009, 7:24:30 AM3/24/09
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First letters of OK and Cancel buttons aren't underlined anymore. They
can't be clicked using the alt key.

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Stefan Küng

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Mar 24, 2009, 12:54:59 PM3/24/09
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Nikola Smiljanic wrote:
> First letters of OK and Cancel buttons aren't underlined anymore. They
> can't be clicked using the alt key.

http://blogs.msdn.com/oldnewthing/archive/2008/05/08/8467905.aspx

OK : Ctrl-Enter
Cancel : Esc


Stefan

--
___
oo // \\ "De Chelonian Mobile"
(_,\/ \_/ \ TortoiseSVN
\ \_/_\_/> The coolest Interface to (Sub)Version Control
/_/ \_\ http://tortoisesvn.net

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Nikola Smiljanic

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Mar 25, 2009, 4:52:58 AM3/25/09
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Thanks for the link. Raymond really know obscure windows stuff :)

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David Balažic

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Mar 25, 2009, 8:36:46 AM3/25/09
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Stefan Küng:

>
> Nikola Smiljanic wrote:
> > First letters of OK and Cancel buttons aren't underlined
> anymore. They
> > can't be clicked using the alt key.
>
> http://blogs.msdn.com/oldnewthing/archive/2008/05/08/8467905.aspx
>
> OK : Ctrl-Enter
> Cancel : Esc

Hmm, the article says only "Enter" for OK ?

Regards,
David

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Stefan Küng

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Mar 25, 2009, 2:37:30 PM3/25/09
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David Balažic wrote:
> Stefan Küng:
>> Nikola Smiljanic wrote:
>>> First letters of OK and Cancel buttons aren't underlined
>> anymore. They
>>> can't be clicked using the alt key.
>> http://blogs.msdn.com/oldnewthing/archive/2008/05/08/8467905.aspx
>>
>> OK : Ctrl-Enter
>> Cancel : Esc
>
> Hmm, the article says only "Enter" for OK ?

Well, Enter is used in the log message edit box already - or you
couldn't write multiline log messages.
That's why it's Ctrl-Enter for almost every TSVN dialog.

Stefan

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\ \_/_\_/> The coolest Interface to (Sub)Version Control
/_/ \_\ http://tortoisesvn.net

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web...@tigris.org

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Apr 3, 2009, 7:26:01 AM4/3/09
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What's a pity. The old way was more usable IMHO.

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Jack C. Holt

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Apr 3, 2009, 12:55:52 PM4/3/09
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I absolutely agree that using Alt-O as an accelerator key for the OK
button in the commit dialog was more usable AND intuitive. Perhaps
this is a minor point but the point if underlining the accelerator key
is a clue to the user that the button can be actuated without reaching
for the mouse by holding down the Alt key and pressing the accelerator
key. Leaving it in is a good thing for usability speed of execution.
I will start using the Ctrl-Enter button but the point is that we had
to ask this question; wasting your time and ours. Ctrl-Enter is not
in the least intuitive.

Since it was already in, it would seem to the me that the easiest
thing for the developer was to LEAVE it in. Was there some overriding
reason for taking the time to remove it?

On the surface it seems like a brain-dead thing to have done.

On Apr 3, 4:26 am, webp...@tigris.org wrote:
> What's a pity. The old way was more usable IMHO.
>

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Kurt Pruenner

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Apr 3, 2009, 1:54:34 PM4/3/09
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Jack C. Holt wrote:
> Since it was already in, it would seem to the me that the easiest
> thing for the developer was to LEAVE it in. Was there some overriding
> reason for taking the time to remove it?

As stated earlier in this very thread:

http://blogs.msdn.com/oldnewthing/archive/2008/05/08/8467905.aspx

which was written by

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raymond_Chen

so I think he knows a thing or three about Windows interface guidelines...

--
Kurt Bernhard Pruenner --- Haendelstrasse 17 --- 4020 Linz --- Austria
.......It might be written "Mindfuck", but it's spelt "L-A-I-N".......
np: Autechre - Tkakanren (Quaristice Quadrange EP)

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Jack C. Holt

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Apr 4, 2009, 9:28:18 AM4/4/09
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I read http://blogs.msdn.com/oldnewthing/archive/2008/05/08/8467905.aspx
(before I made my post). Still the logic behind it escapes me. I
question the conventional wisdom. Why limit the number of ways of
doing the same thing? Especially when you obviously have people that
have become used to using your program in a certain way. You give
your users greater freedom in the way they do their work and let them
use the program in a way that is most efficient for them. Isn't that
a good thing?

Oh, and sorry about the "brain-dead" comment. Thank you for making
TortoiseSVN. It makes my job so much easier.

On Apr 3, 10:54 am, Kurt Pruenner <l...@gmx.at> wrote:
> Jack C. Holt wrote:
> > Since it was already in, it would seem to the me that the easiest
> > thing for the developer was to LEAVE it in.  Was there some overriding
> > reason for taking the time to remove it?
>
> As stated earlier in this very thread:
>
> http://blogs.msdn.com/oldnewthing/archive/2008/05/08/8467905.aspx
>
> which was written by
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raymond_Chen
>
> so I think he knows a thing or three about Windows interface guidelines...
>
> --
> Kurt Bernhard Pruenner --- Haendelstrasse 17 --- 4020 Linz --- Austria
> .......It might be written "Mindfuck", but it's spelt "L-A-I-N".......
> np: Autechre - Tkakanren (Quaristice Quadrange EP)
>

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Michael Geary

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Apr 10, 2009, 2:21:08 AM4/10/09
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I agree completely with Jack. Alt+O had a real usability benefit in
the Tortoise dialogs.

Raymond Chen is a brilliant programmer, but he is not an interaction
designer nor (AFAIK) does he claim to be. He may be right that the
(ancient!) Windows UI guidelines say to not use an accelerator on the
OK button, but this particular accelerator is so useful that it's
worth breaking those guidelines.

And they are guidelines, not rules. Note that several of the
commenters in the cited thread disagree with Raymond.

It's especially annoying for me as a Komodo user. I got the Komodo
guys to add Alt+O to their own source control commit dialog,
specifically so that it would be key-compatible with Tortoise.

The Alt+O shortcut does no harm and much good. Please reconsider and
bring it back.

Thanks!

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Michael Geary

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Apr 10, 2009, 8:17:44 PM4/10/09
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Another thought: Programmers rely on muscle memory. It's one of the
ways we keep our sanity. We let our muscles remember the little
things, like *how you check in your code*, so our brains are freed up
to think about the trickier problems.

Breaking that muscle memory for every programmer who uses TortoiseSVN
is a Bad Thing. A Very Bad Thing. It could be justified in some cases,
but it should be something you are very reluctant to do, and do it
only when there is a very good reason.

Windows UI guidelines from twenty years ago (yes, twenty!) are not a
good enough reason. Raymond Chen's opinion is not a good enough
reason. Is there a good enough reason? What is it?

Contrast with the Subversion command line: When was the last time the
confirmation key for the svn command was changed? :-)

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Patrick Traill

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Apr 16, 2009, 8:47:07 AM4/16/09
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Here is another disgruntled user.
I am fine with <Ctrl>+<Enter>, but I hate having to change this sort of habit, and to waste my time digging through the archive.

Was this change a response to somebody's problem? If so, tell us here, please.

(But I am pleased that diff 1.6 recognises <Ctrl>+<Insert> - thanks!)

Once established, it should not have been changed.
If changed, if should have been in the Change Log.

The combination should be documented in the User Guide, probably in 4.1.4, common shortcuts. There should be index entries under "Accelerator", "keystroke" or "key combination" and "Shortcut" (which currently only leads to a desktop shortcut).

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Jack C. Holt

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Apr 17, 2009, 10:01:38 AM4/17/09
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Seems like we're making some very good points. ANY RESPONSE FROM THE
DEVELOPERS?

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Brad Stiles

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Apr 17, 2009, 10:13:14 AM4/17/09
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> Seems like we're making some very good points.  ANY RESPONSE FROM THE
> DEVELOPERS?

Maybe someone who is interested could submit a patch?

/bs

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