Re: Jen and Shira's posts

[Eli Bass]

Hi Guys, thanks for posting. Jennifer, I think you missed a bit of what I was talking about while you were setting up. The issues the Rav mentioned were not a difference in hashkafa, or in the importance of being on the same page in terms of this, but more about how people interact in small groups. His comments were more related to what happens when people disagree, and how that might affect the relationships of the children in terms of creating points of exclusion/cliques and also for the parents, that sometimes when there are differences, not only with hashkafa, but even with very tachlis daily variables, that this if not dealt with openly and properly ends up being fodder for lashon hara, splits in the groups and a difficulty ultimately for the well being of the whole group. This is more what he is addressing and what I feel is an apt point, much more so than not being able to teach the material, which he never really addressed, as he feels there are many gaps in that teaching all over the system. I feel this issue is a good thing to think about, and perhaps simply something that needs to be addressed from the start in terms of having to be VERY open with each other in a private parents-only forum about disagreements, differences of opinion and any feelings that might arise therewith. I haven't yet written about it on this site because I am still letting this percolate with me in terms of how I feel about this, because I definitely see a truth in this concern,  and how is it possible to prevent such happenings, and how to go forward from here.

 

Thanks for posting, I hope to write more about my thoughts on the subject soon. As always, open to comments.

 

Shabbat Shalom,

Ellie.

[Jay3fer]

I can see that, and I'm sorry I spoke too soon, with too little
information. That's me, to a tee! :-)))

In terms of what you're talking about, I have seen several small
groups I was a part of disintegrate due to politics, gossip, whatnot.
It's amazing how quickly grownups (okay, grownup WOMEN) revert to high
school-level maturity, isn't it? I'm not saying I'm immune, either.

I'm not sure what type of issues you feel might be breaking points for
a group like this. Are you just talking about personal differences,
or halachic differences... what exactly would a "point of exclusion"/
disagreement or clique revolve around? Are we talking about levels of
halachic observance, like kashrus, or hair-covering, or Shabbos? (or
is that still hashkafa, and I'm missing something...yet again!)

I wonder if we could find out what other groups are successfully out
there in the GTA and see what they're doing? Doesn't have to be
Jewish, necessarily... just see what the rules are, etc?

There are a lot of active homeschoolers around the Dufferin Grove
area; during the school year, they have a potluck once a week in a
rented community centre / gym space. (actually, the one time I went,
there had just been a huge rift and the whole thing felt like half the
people were missing and the other half were gossiping!)

Are you guys on the regular Toronto homeschool list on Yahoo Groups?
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Torhschool/

Sorry; I should know this already, but like everyone else here, maybe,
I've been overwhelmed with kid stuff the last few years... :-))))

J

[Eli Bass]

Hi Jennifer,

I think the point of exclusion I'm talking about would be anything that
would cause persons or people to speak in an inappropriate manner about
another person/persons. This in itself, especially if done in front of kids,
will create dischord not only among the adults, but among the kids. this is
the main concern, that within a small group, kids can be exclusionary based
on things that their parents say about another parent, or G-d forbid,
another child. Then kids get excluded, or yleft out, or treated as less than
in some way, and the others feel justified because a parent is mirroring
this feeling/behaviour within the parental group. With a larger group i.e. a
school, most kids will eventually find their "spot" or group whether small
( just one good friend ) or large. This comes with it's many challenges
also, but there certainly is a larger and somewhat more distant from the
parents pool than in a smaller chevre. By no means is this a sole reason to
not do homeschooling, and I do feel that a somewhat full curriculem would be
wonderful to do for the first few years, but I do feel that this is a worthy
point to resolve, as one of the reasons i wanted to do this in the first
place was to create a conscious, connective and positive environment for my
kids to grow in, and for them to learn what actions and behaviours are
appropriate and growth oriented, and which aren't. I want them to learn
relationship - with themselves, others, and with Hashem and to find a great
group of people, kids and adults alike with which do this. This is why the
possibility of the break between theory and practice is so important here,
because it's easy to say you want these things, but another level altogether
to actually be doing something to create this.

Ok, super tired here. Hope all are well, and would love to hear more from
everyone.
Kol Tov,
Ellie.

[Jay3fer]

This makes sense.

I will honestly say those are some of the reasons I am NOT looking for
a full curriculum or even full-time contact with other Jewish
homeschoolers.

My ideal in the early grades would probably be once or maybe twice a
week, depending on how formal or informal the activity/activities were
that were planned.

In addition to the (probably) prohibitive cost of offering a full
curriculum, I believe that would detract from many of the advantages
of homeschooling, like the freedom to schedule spontaneously (or, more
realistically, around the older kids' schedules and how sleepy I feel
on any given day).

Even if it's not full-time, rifts can happen, and they are always
bitter and horrible. That can happen in any group or organization...
and I don't think it's a reason NOT to go ahead. I guess I hope a
basic awareness of lashon hora would keep us "safer" than other
groups... is that too smug of me?

In 15 years as a mama (ok, almost 15) I have met many parents whose
styles I don't like; some, I have thought of as downright
irresponsible parents. I have always made a point of a) not letting
it affect my kid's relationship with their child, if possible, and b)
not expressing these opinions anywhere a child can notice. I think
this has been relatively successful. (my older kids also grew up
thinking their father was my BEST FRIEND... I apparently do have
superlative acting skills!)

(a good line when kids say "why does so-and-so's parent do
___whatever___???" = "Every parent is different, and Hashem chooses
the right parents for each child.")

Another honesty moment: whatever happens, I just want to see more
Jewish families doing homeschooling! At the few hs things I went to
when YM was in Grade Six, I got tired of being alone in a sea of
Muslims, Christians and atheists. Lots of Muslim hs'ers in the GTA,
btw!

J

p.s. I have been so, so lonely in the larger "parents' pool" at Eitz
Chaim...

> Are you guys on the regular Toronto homeschool list on Yahoo Groups?http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Torhschool/

> > Ellie.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Shira]

Hi :)

I'm not even sure what a 'full' curriculum would be, under 6 years
old. Especially under 3/4 years old, which is where we're at now.
So, I'd love if anyone knew what exactly 3-6yos learn in traditional
schooling?

About this issue of breaks between parents, and children seeing/
reflecting... I have some initial thoughts. One, being in a larger
pool from which to make friends might seem like a good alternative to
this, but perhaps its just a way to avoid conflict resolution skills,
and learning to make do/get along with who you have near you. (Think
of the arguments against small town living vs. living in the city,
there is the one about everyone knowing everyone's business, very
similar to our issue here). There is value in being able to stay with
a group, even when its tough, and working on whatever problems arise,
rather than being able to just move onto a new group that is more
inline with the way a parent feels. Also, it seems to me that
cliqiness (spelling), which seems to be a part of this concern, is
less likely to have long-term ill affects on parents and children in a
smaller group, as the group is more easily adaptable. When I think
back to school, to the children who were picked on, they were the same
children who were picked on from one year to the next. Some kids
changed schools just to get away from being picked on. And then also,
our neighbors were telling us about their daughter and a schoolmate,
and each daughter complaining to their mothers about how rotten the
other girl is treating her, and each mother thinking there is this
bully at school (the other girl), and when the mothers finally got
together, turns out each girl gives and takes some rotten behaviour
(not great overall, but better than a real bully). As a smaller
homeschooling group, I think we have more potential to identify such
problems, and work through them, teaching our children, in real life
experiences, how to get along with the world. Very different from
modern cultures ideal of "I am the way I am, if you can't handle it,
find someone else to be with". I don't think that is reality.

I also think Jennifer is right, we are starting out with an
advantage... the lashon hara knowledge, but also more. We are all
arriving at the homeschooling point (as far as I know), not because we
don't think schools can educate, teach well... but because of the
'way' we want our children to be educated. Homeschooling may provide
that 'way' (as well as the content). In making those choices, about
how we'll treat our children, how we'll parent them, how we'll
discipline them (for lack of better term, since I don't see it as
discipline exactly), etc... we are already choosing to be a different
kind of parent than the average parents one might find at school, or
the parent who homeschools to offer a better education, or because
their child doesn't fit into the 'system' well. Perhaps the rabbi has
only met schooling parents, perhaps they are a certain way... perhaps
we made our particular choices because we are a different way. Not
that we are perfect, or never speak lashon hara, or always try to work
out differences directly and quickly, but that maybe we view
differences and conflicts differently, as points of developement for
ourselves, as moments of learning about healthy social interaction for
our children, etc. Am I thinking clearly? I'm nursing, so I might
have written something nonsensical.

I think what I'm trying to say is that there are times when a shift in
paradigm can completely shift the place of something usually viewed as
negative into something not negative. I saw this a lot when I read
Unconditional Parenting, and some other books. For example, when/if
someone realizes that babies are meant to wake up in the night, to
nurse at night, or eat at night, and realize that it is ideal for
their developement in some way that we don't quite understand... the
night-wakings take on a different aura, and don't seem the way they
did when they were something the baby was doing 'wrong' because baby's
are 'supposed' to sleep the night. Ok, that example doesn't quite
fit, but hopefully you get the idea.

Squirming baby, gotta go.
Shira

[Cousineau]

Dear All,

This is my first real post, so I'm jumping into a discussion in the middle, but I do have a couple of thoughts that might add to it.

First, on the subject of what traditional schools teach 3-6 year olds. I believe Jessie Wise Bauer or her mother, authors of The Well-Trained Mind: A Guide to a Classical Education at Home, wrote about a teacher who said that she knew which first graders had been to kindergarten because they all lined up properly the first time she asked. With all due kavod to Netivot Ha Torah, where my three sons will soon begin Nursery, JK, and SK, and which the two oldest loved last year, I will say that there is definitely nothing they have learned that they could not have learned at home with one exception. The exception, which I will qualify, is that my oldest son learned to speak Hebrew. He is in the morning immersion program, and it was wonderful for him. Now, if I were a fluent Hebrew speaker, he could have done this at home. As it is, I speak French at home with the kids, and though I do speak Hebrew, I was advised against attempting to speak with one's children in a language in which one is not completely comfortable. They reviewed Aleph-Bet in class (but did not get into the nekudot), pre-math, pre-science, and did some creative work, all in Hebrew. He didn't go to afternoon school, but I believe they also do pre-reading in JK. Shaya taught himself to read a few years ago, and is far beyond grade level at this point. My second, who was in Nursery, also reviewed Aleph-Bet, and did many cute projects, but in English wish some key Hebrew words introduced around Parsha study, Chagim etc. He actually benefited more from being in a larger social group; just the kind of child he is. So that is what I know about what they are teaching at Netivot, at least.

Second point was about small group relationships. My husband went to law school at the University of Virginia, in Charlottesville, VA, a small, very un-Jewish town. We were two of six orthodox Jews (at various and different "levels" or places in the spectrum) who were joined by a Chabad couple we all pitched in to bring down there. The two married couples among us took turns hosting Shabbat lunch, one we at ours, next week at theirs, with the others, and various other townies, students, and out-of town visitors joining us regularly. We really had to make do with what we had, and each one of us really counted. I have to say that even though I went there against my will initially, I ended up loving it. We did have to work out issues directly, communicate clearly, and be there for each other. My chevruta from that time is still among my closest friends. Although Toronto is far from this model Jewishly, there is the potential within this homeschooling group to create something very special along those lines. After all, though we all benefit from the services that are available in a large Jewish community, the fact is that we really live (by which I mean we are fulfilled and gain that which is meaningful) in much smaller communities, whether of friends, family, Shabbat regulars, peer parents, professional colleagues etc.

For what it is worth, I plan to have my kids at home every afternoon this year. I am considering putting together some kind of group -- could be reading, art, music, tap dancing, play, environmental stuff(like a weekly "how to do green" activity). Haven't really thought it out completely. If anyone is interested, please let me know. We're in Thornhill.

Kol tuv,
Rachel C.

2009/8/19 Shira <shirar...@yahoo.ca>

--
Dr. Jennifer Rachel Cousineau
137 Millcroft Way
Vaughan, Ontario
L4J 6P7
Home Phone: 905-597-5325
Cell Phone: 917-697-5284