CDI COLLEGE SUCKS BIG TIME!
CDI College Sucks
I just finished (May '02) my training at CDI college but I'm really
not happy with them because they can not provide me a stage which they
should!
They really let me hang high and dry for three months now and they say
it is the job market which is true, but a stage for two months at no
cost for an employer should not be so hard to find?
I'm also in my 40's and invested heavily in my future but so far my
return of investment is zero.
Also the way they train you I didn't like, at first it appears to be
very flexible and especially for people over 20 like we who don't want
to sit in a classroom all day it's appealing, but you pay for it be
being late with the modules, it's simply too flexible!
I can tell you more nasty things about them if you want, an other time
in private email.
I agree with the previous writer about the hotdog stand, I can also
suggest to do a little research on investing and make a nice portfolio
with the $14,000+ and then retire at 55.
My best advice, do not proceed with them!
AJ
> "Jackie" <orcabc@-nospam-hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:RcA99.199469$f05.11...@news1.calgary.shaw.ca...
> > I am currently researching the job market for computer programmers in the
> > Victoria area, as well as the remainder of the Island.
> >
> > I and am seeking the advice of current programmers and employers who are
> > willing to
> > provide me with some "real" stats. There's no one better to ask than
> someone
> > working or hiring in the field. I have done some informational interviews
> > but require
> > more - many people just don't have the time. Can you help me out?
> >
> > Having looked at the Programmer Analyst/Internet Solutions Developer
> program
> > at CDI College in Victoria, I am seriously considering the step to a
> career
> > change. I am in my 40's and don't want to invest my time and money
> > ($14,000+) into a program that will lead me back to the unemployment line.
> >
> > I realize most of the work is contract and you get out of job search what
> > you put into it, but there have to be jobs out there first. I have a
> > computer background but no certs that will help me in the stiff job market
> > of tech support.
> >
> > Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
> >
> > Jackie
> >
> > - please remove the -nospam- from my email address when replying - thx
> >
> >
> >
Will.M
excited about getting any certs from CDI anyway. Also, the market is not
only bad, it's pathetic. I know person who have access to HRPOA - (
restricted to general public) an they are dumbfounded that even their
resource boards have dwindled to near nil....It's very, very bad....
Anyway, that does not mean to give up. I too am over the 40 mark, and have
been working on my skills upgrading for like..oh, 1.5 years now...lol. Ever
since the bottom feel out in mid-2000. In the past I've taken 15,000.00
dollar courses among others, which are now (4 years later) obsolete - go
figure. So, enough of the institutions for me. Give me about three decent
books (300.00) and purchase say VB.NET, or C#, or C++ (180.00) or whatever
your fancy, get your mind in study mode, and if you can, put in a good 12-14
hours of self-study a day for a while. And if you can land a general job of
anykind (set pride aside if you have to) to help feed the kids. I wish you
good fortune, and send some my way if you get the chance...lol
Cheers!
"CDI College Sucks" <cdicoll...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:9ff11d31.02082...@posting.google.com...
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Peter Pohlmann
Low pay if any job. Applying to job offers from agencies is a waste of time
and i suspect that most of the jobs are not real anyways.
THey serve rather more adverising purposes than to attract a client.
Some people ave tried to verify the offers and found out that the companies
are not even hireing.
Every application requires time and even if you would have an MBA
you still would not find a job. This situation is global.
There is only one thing that i can say, IT will come back because without
it the world will not function.
How many of us will be left over is not clear, but sure is that it will be
every year more expensive to
get good IT people since the deb will rise..
I am not willing to work below 80 000 CDN. I have worked since 1979 in IT
and
bring a lot of experience to the table. To get a job at Mc Donnald is also
no option
because i did not learn all my life for to hand out hamburgers.
So other ways have to be found. Make a living from the internet..
Buy and sell services, im or export things..
Trading is always good and feeds.
Cheers
Peter
Jackie
already...find work (ha, that sucks here on the Island right now too) and
study as you have mentioned.
Good luck to you.
Jackie
Will.M <wil...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:i_Y99.26899$_75.2...@news20.bellglobal.com...
Jackie
in the field!
Jackie
Peter Pohlmann <pe...@e-partner.com> wrote in message
news:MO_99.73796$Px3.1...@news20.bellglobal.com...
Jackie
a note via my email -see below?
Jackie
CDI College Sucks <cdicoll...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:9ff11d31.02082...@posting.google.com...
Will.M
feels the IT situation is getting ready to "kick it up a notch," ( Emeril
Style). The difference will be in the types of jobs. Yes, we had a busrt of
(foot in the door - tech support jobs) for a number of years, and those will
not bee as abundant. Not even close to what it was. However, I do think that
corporations will not only take a hard look at the .NET platform, but rather
they will "have" to convert to it. Not because t's another upgrade
thing...it's not. It's a whole new platform. Every ten or so years a new
programming language comes into being, eliminating those before it. I'm not
talking about script langs like VB, but core langs, in this case C. A step
backwards - Visual C++, C++, C, B (yes there was a B lang) and you guessed
it A. All averaging in the area of 10 years of life before the other came
into being. Excluding Visual C++ maybe. Each of those langs brought forth a
huge supply of jobs, as you all know. Don't think C# wont, because it will.
Big time....The good part is, hardcore C and C++'ers aren't eager to spend
the time to learn a new language again. And C# (pronounced C Sharp, by the
way), has been built from scratch for the .NET framework. So it's not like
the C and C++'ers are going to learn VB (which would only take them a few
weeks) or even Visual C++ (a few months) to be productive with it. To learn
C# for C and C++'ers is more difficult, as they're thinking is already
hardcoded into the lang\s they know. So they say, screw it, I'll wait till I
have to. My point should now be obvious....If you think you would like and
be good (not half decent) at programming, NOW is the best time you could do
it. A little secret....It's not all that difficult if you try.....I'm
currently studying C - ANSI, C++. I've realized I've got the time to do it,
like many of you do.....I only started 6 months ago, and I can sit down and
program in either of them....so can you. My intent is to learn just enough
in these earlier langs to give me the confidence to learn C#, which I'm
getting the courses lined up already (All free from online sources too) All
I'm paying for is the books. Learning C# is much, much easier than learning
C or C++. Does it leave me much time for "life"?...No.
It would take a college a month to teach me what I teach myself in a day.
I've gave myself about an intense a curiculum as I could - like a fast track
training. Ask yourself how long it's been since you were working, and what
could you have taught yourself during that time. Will it be just as long
again before your working?.. I don't know myself, but I'm going to have a
whole new set of needed skills when the economy says it's time to "Kick it
up a notch!"....lol
Yes, this was a lot of babble, but maybe it'll give someone out there that
little push they need to get started.
Sorry to all the rest...lol Cheers!
"Jackie" <orcabc@-nospam-hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xg%99.196703$v53.10...@news3.calgary.shaw.ca...
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Ross
news:hc0a9.4$uF....@news20.bellglobal.com:
> I must admit, I am not as pesimistic as I was a few months ago. I'm
> one who feels the IT situation is getting ready to "kick it up a
> notch," ( Emeril Style). The difference will be in the types of jobs.
> Yes, we had a busrt of (foot in the door - tech support jobs) for a
> number of years, and those will not bee as abundant. Not even close to
> what it was. However, I do think that corporations will not only take
> a hard look at the .NET platform, but rather they will "have" to
> convert to it. Not because t's another upgrade thing...it's not. It's
> a whole new platform. Every ten or so years a new programming language
> comes into being, eliminating those before it. I'm not talking about
> script langs like VB, but core langs, in this case C.
C obsolete? Superceeded by what? C is the foundation of contemporary
computing. It is the language that the operating systems are written in
(well, that and C++ and a touch of assembly)
C is not obsolete and is not in any danger of going away soon.
> A step backwards
> - Visual C++, C++, C, B (yes there was a B lang) and you guessed it A.
No there was not. B and C were based on a language called BCPL.
> All averaging in the area of 10 years of life before the other came
> into being. Excluding Visual C++ maybe. Each of those langs brought
> forth a huge supply of jobs, as you all know. Don't think C# wont,
C# is nothing new or revolutionary. It is a reflavouring of the concepts
of Java (which inherits from C++ (and therefore C), Smalltalk and Self)
on top of the Win32 API extended to the .NET framework.
> because it will. Big time....The good part is, hardcore C and C++'ers
> aren't eager to spend the time to learn a new language again.
Oh please! For a "hardcore C or C++'er" learning a new language is a
matter of weeks. The real "experts" know and can be productive in and
can write commercial libraries for C, C++, Java and C#. Programming is
programming. It is a difficult activity to do properly. The language is
just a detail.
> And C# has been built from scratch...
Utter nonsense.
> ... for the .NET framework.
Which is an extenstion of the Win32 API, which is written in C.
> So it's not like the C and C++'ers are going to learn
> VB (which would only take them a few weeks) or even Visual C++
Do you even know what "Visual C++" is? If you say it is a programming
language you are incorrect. I'll leave it to you to do the research as
to what exactly it is.
> (a few months) to be productive with it. To learn C# for C and
> C++'ers is more difficult, as they're thinking is already
> hardcoded into the lang\s they know. So they say, screw it, I'll wait
> till I have to. My point should now be obvious....If you think
> you would like and be good (not half decent) at programming, NOW is
> the best time you could do it. A little secret....It's not all that
> difficult if you try.....I'm currently studying C - ANSI, C++. I've
> realized I've got the time to do it, like many of you do.....I only
> started 6 months ago, and I can sit down and program in either of
> them....so can you.
As a developer/consultant/trainer with 10 years experience, I say that
you are so filled with misinformation and misconceptions that I don't
know where to start. You are incorrect with almost each and every
"fact" you present.
All I can say that if you ever meet me in an interview -- I'll be the on
the other side of the desk, reading your resume -- and you start spouting
nonsense like you have in this post, it will be a very short interview.
--
Go not to Usenet for counsel, for they will say both yes and no.
Cash Flow
rusty against learning new tricks right line. Enjoy!
"Ross" <Ro...@SingingFrog.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9275541...@207.35.177.134...
blackjacker
if you really like IT, get a CS degree/diploma.
but the way IT is right now, big corporations are shipping jobs
overseas and the offshore software development is huge!!!
IT in north america is a dying industry just like the manufacturing or
textile sector!!!
also, you said you are in your 40s, well, there are huge age
discrimination in IT and employers would rather hire the young
brilliant 20 year old coder who can think quickly and remember more
things than you!!! the 20-something year old can work long hours and
not worry about family.
yup! it sucks!!! IT sucks!!! don't believe the hype.
start your own business. working for someone sucks. put your heart
and soul and get laid off. or get into healthcare related industry.
I hear nursing is going to be huge!!!
cdicoll...@hotmail.com (CDI College Sucks) wrote in message news:<9ff11d31.02082...@posting.google.com>...
blackjacker
have gotten modularized to the point where the "new" technology is
just an updated version of the "old" one. Change a few parameters, and
off you go. Very little is done from scratch any more, compared to ten
years ago.
There will always be SOME jobs for programmers, but the question is,
will there be as many jobs as there are programmers? When supply
exceeds demand, you start working for peanuts. This is why IT salaries
are down in many areas, and will continue to be down in others.
And, if you're in a high-demand field and making the big bucks, it's
only a matter of time before you're outsourced to India.
Don't get too comfy!
"Peter Pohlmann" <pe...@e-partner.com> wrote in message news:<MO_99.73796$Px3.1...@news20.bellglobal.com>...
blackjacker
say, "Hey, put in an extra 15 hours a week on salary, and it'll pay
off some day", and he'll BELIEVE it!
Harder to put this kind of shit over on someone who's been in the biz
for awhile. So, it's more cost-effective to hire ten idiots then it is
to hire two professionals.
"Peter Pohlmann" <pe...@e-partner.com> wrote in message news:<MO_99.73796$Px3.1...@news20.bellglobal.com>...
Bob
> corporations will not only take a hard look at the .NET platform, but rather
> they will "have" to convert to it.
I don't think it'll be .NET, I think it'll be Linux and PHP.
Will.M
No pasture for you mate...just extinction. And with an atitutude like
yours....I say the sooner the better.
Your credentials (proud as you are of them) are nothing to compared to
others I know, who are fluent in 7 langs, have always worked, bug money, and
always will, till they retire. If your goal is to sit "on the other side of
the fence" as a recruiter....then just do the rest of us a favor and make
the move. That's if they'll hire you of course.
"Ross" <Ro...@SingingFrog.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9275541...@207.35.177.134...
mbg
field, a new programming language should not be that much of an
obstacle. Barring the intricacies, you don't have to "learn
programming" every time a new language comes out. And if you're looking
forward to the .NET effect, languages will be a little less relevant
than they are right now.
Although I think .NET's benefits will make inroads, nobody "has" to
convert to it. There are alternatives. There is Java, which is already
entrenched. One of .NET's benefits is that it makes languages co-
operative with each other and decreases a single language's relevance.
If you believe .NET is going to be successful, why is your focus on the
language?
If you're into programming, I think you'd be better off spending your
time with a good computer science technical book on algorithms and then
implement those algorithms in your language of choice. Languages are not
intrinsically useful ... you need to have an application.
When the economy shouts "kick it up a notch", I hope they will not
repeat the same mistakes that they did the last time, hiring people who
can speak the words and type the syntax but do not have the proper
educational and practical experience to integrate the systems and work
within an educated technical team. I'm pretty confident that they will
be more cautious. There'll always be room for programmers, but I'm not
sure how long it'll be before programming is a blue collar job.
In article <hc0a9.4$uF....@news20.bellglobal.com>, wil...@sympatico.ca
says...
mbg
In article <Np7a9.36074$Bj.30...@read2.cgocable.net>,
bob.lock...@mail.com says...
Ben Douglas
and put my 2 cents in anyway.
I can understand where these 'old timers' are coming from. After years of
C++ and C code crunching they are the self proclaimed veterans of our
business. I work with many such veterans at my work place.
But the main thing you need to realize is that while you can write an OS
kerner in C - you simply cannot do the same for a Web Page. I mean you can
ofcourse argue that you can write ISAPI dll which can diplay a simple 'Hello
World' but how many businesses can afford that kind of development cost. The
old timers NEED to adapt to the changing environment. C and C++ is not
appropriate for each and every situation. Today there are not many OSs being
written. What the industry is looking for scalable and robust web
applications (mostly). As I said I do work with many guys who have been
programming for more than my actual age now. Although picking up the syntax
of Java, C#, VB, ASP, JSP etc. is pretty simple for them but still many a
times they try to implement the same principles of programming in today's
web oriented applications. Model-View-Controller simply does not work for
Web pages. And neither bloated pure object oriented systems are scalable
enough.
As far as the rest of the 'mass production' programmers are concerned - they
are not getting work simply due to lack of experience. Right now, as we all
agree, the demand is exceeding the supply. Interestingly, same is true for
most of other fields. There are many MBAs, CAs which are either out of work
or are working for far less salaries. I am not implying that I am safe in my
position. These are changing times and we need to see what the industry
wants from us and change accordingly. And again that change needs to happen
almost instantly. An employer cannot wait a year before you will be familiar
with the current technology because what is cutting edge today will be old
school in a year. Learning and gathering more knowledge is the key right
now.
I am particularly dissapointed in people like 'blackjacker' who are
frustrated themselves and suggesting that we should look for jobs at
McDonald's or BurgerKing. And you are totally wrong about 10 idiots are less
expensive than 2 professionals. I speak from experience - because these days
I am re-writing some applications from scratch which some intern students
wrote a year ago. So now the company has to invest twice as much in a single
project. And since you post quite a lot in this group - looks like you are
out of job too. And I guess you are too over qualified to get a job at
McDonalds or BurgerKing. Boy, I sure would not want to be in your situation.
Just my 2 cents.
Ross
news:ejaa9.276$n73.1...@news20.bellglobal.com:
> Rossie Old boy, your a dying dinasour...
> No pasture for you mate...just extinction. And with an atitutude like
> yours....I say the sooner the better.
> Your credentials (proud as you are of them) are nothing to compared to
> others I know, who are fluent in 7 langs, have always worked, bug
> money, and always will, till they retire. If your goal is to sit "on
> the other side of the fence" as a recruiter....then just do the rest
> of us a favor and make the move. That's if they'll hire you of course.
Interesting.... You mock me, yet you cannot refute one thing I've said.
Your post says loads about your expertise, er, I mean lack of it.
Come back when you've designed and written a couple of systems (and been
paid for it). In the mean time, I'll be watching out for you, just in case
you end up on a team that I'm leading.
R.
--
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity,
and I'm not sure about the former."
--Albert Einstein
Matthew Kruk
> ...
> Just my 2 cents.
Better than the twenty+ dollars that I've read so far. I tip my hat.
Peter Pohlmann
Let me put my 2 cents in.
I think it does not matter for a programmer what language to use. I have
been programming since the earliest days of commodore computers VC20 etc..
once u have learned a good language than it is easy to switch to others. I
programmed in pascal, c++ etc. All this web stuff
and i am on it since the first data crossed what is today the internet..
is a minor thing. .net sucks big time.. as evrything does what comes from
Microsoft. But the youngsters need to learn this first and get burned before
they thik the same way. Look at the MSCE crap. How many people have spend
money for "Crtification " and what value does it hold now. IS it already
expired .. did u retrain and spend more money for Billi Gtes. Well I have
used asp and a lot of other things ovr hte years .. but let me tell you my
conclusion :
Money is evrything. Companies doe likle to safe money in their budgets.
Linux is almot free, Mysql is almost free and php too.
That is what effects positivly the button line of any company. I use all of
the three since many years. Linux since the earl days. Of course i have to
say that it is not useable for any grand mother.. but we get to there soon.
C++ is a cool base and it would sure be my advise to go for it or for
Delphi.
I also read some posting about the dll cgi . Well let me tell you.. in a
windows environment a dll cgi is the fastest way of doing things..
but also the biggest enemy of efficient maintenance.
In conclusion i woud say we should not fight eachother what is the best
thing or stuff to learn. Sure a market for anything. But if someone takes
the microsoft road
than there are many uncertainties about the future. . net will die same like
some other products from MS or crtifications etc from MS.
Just get a good base and it does not matter .. asp .. .net .. php .. Who
cares. If tomorrow a project comes along that asks for this, i sure am ready
in 2 days for it.
THe point is that flexibility is what is needed.
But also I like to make another remark here:
IF somone take IT as his career path than learning is a part of life and an
8 hour job is not cutting it. My day has 2 hours for learning ..every day..
even weekends
that besides 14 hour working. I am sure an 8 hrs day is a lot netter.. but i
like what i do and that is what is needed in IT.
Commitment to the field, and yes also the commitmnet for a life of learning.
IF you do not do that you are very fast out.
Cheers,
Peter
Ben Douglas
I pity these people who just want to generalize things so much. Anything
from M$ is crap. If that is the case - how come 90% of world's PCs are still
running Windows. Sure Linux is free - but how many 'grandmothers' can
install Linux on their systems? mySQL is FAST and free - but just lacks some
of the important features of RDMBS like referential integrity, transactions
etc.
People get real - there are pros and cons to every platform, tool and
language. Be wise and try to see the good in each one of them (yes,
everything and everyone has some good in it/him/her).
Another 2 cents. :-)
Ben
"Peter Pohlmann" <pe...@e-partner.com> wrote in message
news:eaia9.1864$uF.2...@news20.bellglobal.com...
db501
reason for it to come back. Software tools become better and more
specialized and there is not going to be much demand for people. We
are reaching certain level of maturity and saturation and there is not
enough grow potential to support all of you.
Will.M
And since you brought my Mother into it...I'll ask a few of my HR sources if
Ross rings a bell.
San Diago eh?...Tierra net hmmm...interesting
"Ross" <Ro...@SingingFrog.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9275EFB...@206.172.150.13...
Ross
news:fMja9.1181$if4.2...@news20.bellglobal.com:
> Great...A recruiter who makes online threats.
Strike One! -- I'm a developer not a head hunter.
Strike Two! -- Threats? What threats?
> And since you brought my Mother into it...I'll ask a few of my HR
> sources if Ross rings a bell.
Hahahahahahaha!!!!! So are you threatening me, now? What are your "HR
sources" going to do?
BTW, Strike Three! -- Where did I mention your mother?
Life's too short to deal with morons like you.
<plonk>
R.
--
...deficient support can be a virtue. It keeps the amateurs off.
--Bjarne Stroustrup
Jamie
> Life's too short to deal with morons like you.
>
> <plonk>
>
> R.
I don't really care about the mud slinging contest here but comments like
the one above will keep you unemployed.
Jamie
Peter Lewycky
stuff available for Linux. Development and technical support (24/7) is
provided freely by millions of enthusiasts world-wide. Support of M$
comes from the business community who believe that anything that is free
can't be any good.
Last fall when Windows-based servers were being hammered by viruses,
Linux-based servers cruised along oblivious to the carnage. When the US
media reported on the problems that M$ was having with security and
viruses, they NEVER mentionned Linux. This is indicative of the fear and
paranoia gripping M$ and the US that their control of the PC world may
be slipping away.
Peter Pohlmann
investors
spending millions in projects that did not have any chance on the market. Of
course now the pockets are empty, private investors burned, accounts empty
..
But that has nothing to do with the future. There are a lot of new
technologies that involve IT in some way or shape. Look at the home
automation . I can not understand why we open a door with a key. that is
technology from 2000 years ago.. still lot of market out there to catch up
with this in the private area .. lots of devices have to be developed.
IT will be a part of life. With or without Gates or Linux. So I am quiet
confident that there will be jobs for all of us. And if not, hey than we
have to create our own jobs. That is what North America is about.
By the way I am not a gates hater .. or hate his products, I just mentioned
that
his marketing and product politics sucks big time. It always depends on the
project
and what gets the task at hand done the best and cost efficient way.
Cheers
"db501" <db...@torfree.net> wrote in message
news:71e218ea.02082...@posting.google.com...
blackjacker
this is truer than ever!!! all you losers who thought IT would be the
"wave of the future" just got spanked! The fact that some new
"technology" comes out doesn't mean that a system that worked before
needs to be rewritten. Banks still use their old COBOL system and it
works nicely. There is no need to rewrite their software using the
lastest technology. If it cranks out the needed information, then it
works.
face dooders, IT was a growing field back in those days when systems
needed to be written for banks and huge institutions. Now it is just
approaching maturity.
Most new software written out there is JUNK! We don't need it.
increased productivity != increased profits.
http://www.nationalpost.com/financialpost/story.html?id={C419B301-B872-4E08-BFD8-F204C7970623}
HAHAHHAHAHAHH!!! all you suckers got scammed into IT and now you
can't get a job. well, change industry dude!
mbg
small in the grand scheme of things, using a free system really doesn't
save you that much if the support system and resources aren't there.
I posted earlier saying that the language should have less esteem than
it currently has. However, you have managers out there who come from the
mainframe world, and when you show them an interface constructed in
Visual Basic, even if it has 2 text fields and a couple of buttons, they
just can't get their minds around how smart you are. The development
environments are getting so good that they are making stupid people look
clever. The problems arise when you have to modify all that auto-
generated code -- it is beyond a lot of the developers (some of whom are
starting to call themselves software engineers -- yikes!) that come from
your community colleges and "get rich quick" schools.
I agree with you that the job does not end at 5pm. You do have to
continue learning. But I do wonder what exactly you are getting from it
or how you are perceived if you are working for a company that makes you
put in 14 hour days. The reason you are putting in 14 hour days is that
people -- the higher-ups -- are doing quite well for themselves WITHOUT
putting in that 2 hours a day for professional development.
In article <eaia9.1864$uF.2...@news20.bellglobal.com>, peter@e-
partner.com says...
mbg
just a very good example of a certification that has become almost
worthless because Microsoft took the angle of getting a large number of
MCSEs in practice to drive sales of their software, and a lot of them
got the certification but could not do the job. It then became a
certification that employers would ask for to limit their liability
(He set fire to the server room but hey, what can I do about it? I hired
a certified engineer. You can't blame me!)
Professional engineers, of course, have a P.Eng designation and put
their credentials on the line when they sign off on a completed project.
They can be disciplined by a professional body if their work is
sufficiently defective or causes harm. MCSE's are not engineers, and the
use of the word "engineer" together with a Microsoft (or any other non-
engineering) certification cheapens the designation. Unfortunately,
there are too many hiring managers out there who do not know what being
an "engineer" entails.
In article <umjffk1...@corp.supernews.com>, b...@NOSPAMdouglas.com
says...
mbg
@torfree.net says...
There is a lot more intelligence embedded in today's tools, and you
might be partially right. But to use this embedded intelligence requires
a level of education and knowledge that the industry does not currently
have in sufficient quality. This is where the demand will be -- knowing
how to efficiently and correctly use this new genre of tools.
mbg
responsibility, ability and knowledge required to implement the software
required by reliability-critical systems is not available. Most of the
current batch of programmers will not cut it as software gets more
complex in these embedded systems.
So, there will not be jobs for "all of us". There will be jobs for some
of us. And there will be jobs for those who enter the field with the
proper skills to address the needs above (which will mostly come from
universities, once they get the programs in order). Attrition will take
care of the dying breed. The people who are in the most trouble given
the above scenario are people who are just now entering the market, have
a full career ahead of them but do not have the knowlege, ability,
interest or commitment to learn the appropriate skills.
In article <b3ra9.1398$if4.3...@news20.bellglobal.com>, peter@e-
partner.com says...
mbg
play...@hotmail.com says...
> db...@torfree.net (db501) wrote in message news:<71e218ea.02082...@posting.google.com>...
> > Sorry guys to disappoint you but IT will never come back. There is no
> > reason for it to come back. Software tools become better and more
> > specialized and there is not going to be much demand for people. We
> > are reaching certain level of maturity and saturation and there is not
> > enough grow potential to support all of you.
>
> this is truer than ever!!! all you losers who thought IT would be the
> "wave of the future" just got spanked! The fact that some new
> "technology" comes out doesn't mean that a system that worked before
> needs to be rewritten. Banks still use their old COBOL system and it
> works nicely. There is no need to rewrite their software using the
> lastest technology. If it cranks out the needed information, then it
> works.
>
> face dooders, IT was a growing field back in those days when systems
> needed to be written for banks and huge institutions. Now it is just
> approaching maturity.
>
> Most new software written out there is JUNK! We don't need it.
We don't need it because it doesn't properly address our needs, and if
it does, it is probably not reliable or flexible enough to be integrated
with our other systems OR we can't find the right people to do the
integration.
IT isn't dead because the current software is junk. It's dead because we
are recovering from a period where most of the produce was junk, and
everyone is quite rightly skeptical. The software will necessarily
improve, but it will be a gradual process and it will leave a lot of
people tossed aside. These people will probably show up in this group
and make the whole industry look dire for the other folks who are like
them. Meanwhile, the people who have the education and skills (community
college and 6-month "get rich quick" programs address only the latter,
quite poorly, and without the former you're in trouble) business is
looking for will be employed and looking forward to a promising future.
To answer the question you're itching to ask, yes I am employed. I am
participating in this group because I'm curious about the state of the
market.
Cunac
<b...@NOSPAMdouglas.com> wrote:
>web oriented applications. Model-View-Controller simply does not work for
>Web pages. And neither bloated pure object oriented systems are scalable
>enough.
Did you ever design and developed 3-tier system in your life ? Web
page is only representation (view) of the data. And yes, good OO
systems are flexibile and scalable enough, you should try to learn it
first.
Pepi LePew
Ross wrote:
> "Will.M" <wil...@sympatico.ca> wrote in
> news:hc0a9.4$uF....@news20.bellglobal.com:
>
>
>>I must admit, I am not as pesimistic as I was a few months ago. I'm
>>one who feels the IT situation is getting ready to "kick it up a
>>notch," ( Emeril Style). The difference will be in the types of jobs.
>>Yes, we had a busrt of (foot in the door - tech support jobs) for a
>>number of years, and those will not bee as abundant. Not even close to
>>what it was. However, I do think that corporations will not only take
>>a hard look at the .NET platform, but rather they will "have" to
>>convert to it. Not because t's another upgrade thing...it's not. It's
>>a whole new platform. Every ten or so years a new programming language
>>comes into being, eliminating those before it. I'm not talking about
>>script langs like VB, but core langs, in this case C.
>>
>
> C obsolete? Superceeded by what? C is the foundation of contemporary
> computing. It is the language that the operating systems are written in
> (well, that and C++ and a touch of assembly)
>
> C is not obsolete and is not in any danger of going away soon.
>
>
>>A step backwards
>>- Visual C++, C++, C, B (yes there was a B lang) and you guessed it A.
>>
>
> No there was not. B and C were based on a language called BCPL.
>
>
>>All averaging in the area of 10 years of life before the other came
>>into being. Excluding Visual C++ maybe. Each of those langs brought
>>forth a huge supply of jobs, as you all know. Don't think C# wont,
>>
>
> C# is nothing new or revolutionary. It is a reflavouring of the concepts
> of Java (which inherits from C++ (and therefore C), Smalltalk and Self)
> on top of the Win32 API extended to the .NET framework.
>
>
>>because it will. Big time....The good part is, hardcore C and C++'ers
>>aren't eager to spend the time to learn a new language again.
>>
>
> Oh please! For a "hardcore C or C++'er" learning a new language is a
> matter of weeks. The real "experts" know and can be productive in and
> can write commercial libraries for C, C++, Java and C#. Programming is
> programming. It is a difficult activity to do properly. The language is
> just a detail.
>
>
>>And C# has been built from scratch...
>>
>
> Utter nonsense.
>
>
>>... for the .NET framework.
>>
>
> Which is an extenstion of the Win32 API, which is written in C.
>
>
>>So it's not like the C and C++'ers are going to learn
>>VB (which would only take them a few weeks) or even Visual C++
>>
>
> Do you even know what "Visual C++" is? If you say it is a programming
> language you are incorrect. I'll leave it to you to do the research as
> to what exactly it is.
>
>
>>(a few months) to be productive with it. To learn C# for C and
>>C++'ers is more difficult, as they're thinking is already
>>hardcoded into the lang\s they know. So they say, screw it, I'll wait
>>till I have to. My point should now be obvious....If you think
>>you would like and be good (not half decent) at programming, NOW is
>>the best time you could do it. A little secret....It's not all that
>>difficult if you try.....I'm currently studying C - ANSI, C++. I've
>>realized I've got the time to do it, like many of you do.....I only
>>started 6 months ago, and I can sit down and program in either of
>>them....so can you.
>>
>
> As a developer/consultant/trainer with 10 years experience, I say that
> you are so filled with misinformation and misconceptions that I don't
> know where to start. You are incorrect with almost each and every
> "fact" you present.
>
> All I can say that if you ever meet me in an interview -- I'll be the on
Ben Douglas
Anyways I do agree about the situation of MCSE. But I do not think Microsoft
is to be blamed for that. Microsoft has put forward many other
certifications - MCSD, MCDBA etc. but the candidates do not which one to
pick. I spent about 2 weeks at a certified training center - as an assistant
to the trainer and most of the people did not even hear about other
certifications. We came across many candidates who were actually hoping to
get into development but were persuing MCSE. We had to explain it to them
that for developers - MCSD is the way to go - for DBAs - MCDBA. That is
probably the reason why we have over 500,000 MCSEs in the world today and
only about 20,000-30,000 MCSDs.
Peter Pohlmann
But the career is what you make out of it. I personaly think the the college
and even
university is only the first step. To think that this base education will do
to land a cool job and to get rich is a very childish.
We had interviews some time ago. Fact is that if u com from university, you
are basicly useless in a production environment. There is a gap of maybe 5
years between
what univrsity teaches and the real world. Well there are 2 kinds of jobs..
butcher kind -learn once and use all your life and than there are dynamic
jobs .. never finsih learning.
That is a major decition for life. My 18 hrs day is ok.(selfemployed) I
enjoy what i do ad have no problems learning. but i can see that this is not
for everyone. My values are more based on knowledge than on money. Sure i
need money too but knowledge and knowhow etc are more worth to me than a big
pay cheque.. but that is me ..stupid, eh :)
I just can not agree with the way IT is advertised in these TV
advertisement..
A Kind of.. want to make more money .. it is easy .. IT. Well sure not
reality and these days colleges sell a dream .. not education and not
reality.
mbg
would not be pursuing an MCSE because they would know of the other
certifications available, if only because you would not train to be an
MCSD and call that your developer training.
I agree that this is not Microsoft's fault. It's the fault of the
institutions that train for these certifications. The salaries they
promise for such little work were always extremely high and unrealistic.
People who signed up for 6-month programs were being promised salaries
double of what a graduating computer science student could earn, and
this drove a truckload of halfwits to get into the industry for the
money, not out of interest, and here we have the MCSE situation. Your
example is a case in point -- MCSE is one of the most advertised
certifications. A lot of people assimilate MCSE with a career in IT --
whatever that career may be, as long as it's going to pay $80K+ a year
(and that's US dollars, so it must be at least $100K in Canada, right??
For 6 months work -- sign me up!).
I don't think MCSD and MCDBA have the esteem problems that MCSE does. My
opinion is that they are still valuable assets. An MCSE, unless you have
5 or more years of hard on-the-job experience, and good references to go
with it, is worthless in my eyes.
In article <umlv2k3...@corp.supernews.com>, b...@NOSPAMdouglas.com
says...
Pepi LePew
blame others for their short comings.
I am enrolled in CDI right now and I agree, there are things to complain
about but it's the attitude on how to approach these nuances. When their
material (those CDI books are poorly written, translated from french
to english word per word i figure) is inadequate, I find other materials
that might help clear up the issue (whatever it is).
I have seen CDI students who I think should not be in IT since they have
no aptitude for it. I am actually acting as a teacher's assistant (and
yes, I also bitch about some of the instructor's incompetence, but also
listen to some of them, one guy in particular who has 25 years of IT
experience but has a passion for teaching) and I have seen students 8
months into their studies don't even know how to use the MSG Box in VB!!!
I have also seen students who are excelling in their studies. This
particular student who worked as a telemarketer, has no formal
programming experience and he is doing very well, in fact he was made a
TA too.
My point: same set of books, same curriculum, same instructors different
results. The way I see it, CDI should have a very tough screening
process in choosing its students but then again its a private school and
a business.
oh and btw, I just turned 40 but I have been in IT for almost 20 years
now (arrived here in Canada almost a year ago). You might be wondering
what I am doing in CDI, well for the past 15 years I was working in a
totally proprietary environment (very difficult to find the same
environment) and I was thinking of upgrading my skills (I was hoping to
get an intensive C/C++ training but I think I'm just wishing on stars).
one other thing, the course that I took is 14 months long, I am now in
the final stretch of the course and I have put in 7 months. My average
is between 96 to 98 and I spend most of the time drinking at Moonpennies
(just a corner away from CDI Vancouver campus).
Lastly, I've recently landed a contract to develop a customized
application, (this counts as my practicum and earning at the same time
for a 200 hour project). There is still hope for you other CDI students.
my 2 cents worth...
CDI College Sucks wrote:
> CDI COLLEGE SUCKS BIG TIME!
>
> I just finished (May '02) my training at CDI college but I'm really
> not happy with them because they can not provide me a stage which they
> should!
>
> They really let me hang high and dry for three months now and they say
> it is the job market which is true, but a stage for two months at no
> cost for an employer should not be so hard to find?
>
> I'm also in my 40's and invested heavily in my future but so far my
> return of investment is zero.
>
> Also the way they train you I didn't like, at first it appears to be
> very flexible and especially for people over 20 like we who don't want
> to sit in a classroom all day it's appealing, but you pay for it be
> being late with the modules, it's simply too flexible!
>
> I can tell you more nasty things about them if you want, an other time
> in private email.
>
> I agree with the previous writer about the hotdog stand, I can also
> suggest to do a little research on investing and make a nice portfolio
> with the $14,000+ and then retire at 55.
>
> My best advice, do not proceed with them!
>
> AJ
>
>
>
>>"Jackie" <orcabc@-nospam-hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>news:RcA99.199469$f05.11...@news1.calgary.shaw.ca...
>>
>>>I am currently researching the job market for computer programmers in the
>>>Victoria area, as well as the remainder of the Island.
>>>
>>>I and am seeking the advice of current programmers and employers who are
>>>willing to
>>>provide me with some "real" stats. There's no one better to ask than
>>>
>> someone
>>
>>>working or hiring in the field. I have done some informational interviews
>>>but require
>>>more - many people just don't have the time. Can you help me out?
>>>
>>>Having looked at the Programmer Analyst/Internet Solutions Developer
>>>
>> program
>>
>>>at CDI College in Victoria, I am seriously considering the step to a
>>>
>> career
>>
>>>change. I am in my 40's and don't want to invest my time and money
>>>($14,000+) into a program that will lead me back to the unemployment line.
>>>
>>>I realize most of the work is contract and you get out of job search what
>>>you put into it, but there have to be jobs out there first. I have a
>>>computer background but no certs that will help me in the stiff job market
>>>of tech support.
>>>
>>>Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
>>>
>>>Jackie
>>>
>>>- please remove the -nospam- from my email address when replying - thx
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
Gilligan
without experience, it makes no sense. At least in these times.
"Pepi LePew" <cach...@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:3D6CFA8C...@netscape.net...
Kostja
> I must admit, I am not as pesimistic as I was a few months ago. I'm one who
> feels the IT situation is getting ready to "kick it up a notch," ( Emeril
> Style). The difference will be in the types of jobs. Yes, we had a busrt of
> (foot in the door - tech support jobs) for a number of years, and those will
> not bee as abundant. Not even close to what it was. However, I do think that
> corporations will not only take a hard look at the .NET platform, but rather
> they will "have" to convert to it. Not because t's another upgrade
> thing...it's not. It's a whole new platform. Every ten or so years a new
> programming language comes into being, eliminating those before it. I'm not
> backwards - Visual C++, C++, C, B (yes there was a B lang) and you guessed
> into being. Excluding Visual C++ maybe. Each of those langs brought forth a
> Big time....The good part is, hardcore C and C++'ers aren't eager to spend
> way), has been built from scratch for the .NET framework. So it's not like
> the C and C++'ers are going to learn VB (which would only take them a few
> C# for C and C++'ers is more difficult, as they're thinking is already
> hardcoded into the lang\s they know. So they say, screw it, I'll wait till I
> have to. My point should now be obvious....If you think you would like and
> be good (not half decent) at programming, NOW is the best time you could do
> it. A little secret....It's not all that difficult if you try.....I'm
> currently studying C - ANSI, C++. I've realized I've got the time to do it,
> program in either of them....so can you. My intent is to learn just enough
Really? That reminds me how I felt when I wrote and tested my first
program (for solving second order equations): "NOW I CAN PROGRAM!!!!"
Weisgerber96
> > My point: same set of books, same curriculum, same instructors different
> > results. The way I see it, CDI should have a very tough screening
> > process in choosing its students but then again its a private school and
> > a business.
> >
During the tech boom, most IT schools required a degree or
diploma for entrance into their programs. Many of them
(e.g. SFU's Object Technology program, ITI (LOL !!!)) have
now dropped that requirement because of the poor conditions
within the industry.
CDI never had a diploma/degree requirement, hence I don't
think they'll start now.