Is Ontario Premier Mike Harris Contemplating UA Leadership?
Wes Moxam
> Ciceroii (cice...@home.com) wrote:
>
> No doubt about it. The Conservatives are on the ropes, and hope to subvert
> the Reform Party to stay in the game. But Canadians have had enough. What
> we want is an "extinct" Progressive Conservative Party.
>
Maybe Western Canadians want an extinct PC party, but support remains strong in
Atlantic Canada and the PC's are the second place party in Ontario.
> Perhaps most of this is true, but you should give credit where credit is
> due. Brian Mulroney nearly destroyed Canada. It will take a miracle to
> restore Canadian independence, but it could happen under Chretien.
Chretien has mearly continued where Brian Mulroney left off, the same policies, just a
bit different style of governing.
> As for
> right wingers, they have a perfect right of centre alternative in Mr.
> Manning's Reform Party. However, what is no longer on the table is a
> perverted and dishonest Conservative Party. If the right wing wants to
> govern, they are going to have to do it lawfully. Mr. Manning offers them
> an honest way to achieve that goal.
Reform will never be able to form a governement without the Tories help... they simply
do not have enough support east of Manitoba.
>
> Most Canadians are grown up enough to understand that all our troubles
> began with Brian Mulroney and his efforts to apply extreme right wing
> republican political policies to our situation in Canada. It failed, and
> there is now a heavy price to pay, from our financial well being and
> independence under FTA and NAFTA, to the near total destruction of the
> Canadian social safety net.
>
Extreme right wing policies? Mulroney never cut taxes nor balenced the budget. His
primary focus was to solve Canada's constitutional problems with Meach Lake and
Charlettown. It is unfortuanate that he failed.
>
> The reality for Canadians is that Conservatives do not know how to manage
> technology and change. They could not do it under MacDonald with the
> CPR railway, they could not do it with Diefenbaker and the Avro Arrow, and
> they could not do it with Mulroney and the Internet.
>
How on earth did Mulroney screw up the internet? It only became available for general
public use just as he resigned (1992 I believe).
---
Wes Moxam
http://www.scs.ryerson.ca/wmoxam
http://yi.org/rgds
Court Jester™/The Voltairian
{In a Sunday Sun column titled "Harris has the strength to
{unite the right'' conservative Christina Blizzard maintains that
{this is a strong possibility. She claims that Mike Harris, unlike Preston
{Manning, would appeal to the right-wing in both the West and
{Ontario. And that Harris would even have the strong support of Lucien
{Bouchard in Quebec, who although not a small-c conservative detests
{Jean Chretien's Liberals. So the political wisdom is that Harris could
{even make a strong showing in Quebec, although Atlantic Canada would
{be a right-off.
[snip]
An ontario premier appeal to the west?
That's laughable.
Quetario, in itself, I think has completely seperated from the west
unofficialy. Ignoring our problems and taking our money at the same
time.
BC should seperate and establish a seperate system temporarily, and
then decide things such as statehood and provincialhood.
Seperation of powers is a nessasry thing which will never happen with
2 provinces having all the power.
Gölök Zoltán Leenderdt Franco Buday
Free-Lance Writer; Humourist; Mental Patient
Vancouver, BC
The My Ego Times: http://MyEgoTimes.virtualave.net/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Veritas: "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death
your right to say it" - Voltaire.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
fr...@hotmail.com
>In a Sunday Sun column titled "Harris has the strength to
>unite the right'' conservative Christina Blizzard maintains that
>this is a strong possibility. She claims that Mike Harris, unlike Preston
>Manning, would appeal to the right-wing in both the West and
>Ontario. And that Harris would even have the strong support of Lucien
>Bouchard in Quebec, who although not a small-c conservative detests
>Jean Chretien's Liberals. So the political wisdom is that Harris could
>even make a strong showing in Quebec, although Atlantic Canada would
>be a right-off.
Not true. The Atlantic Provinces would support Harris. Joe Clark is
not well-liked in this part of the country. People in NB and NS voted
Tory last time to send a message to the Liberals. It has also resulted
in three Tory governments here.
>Christina Blizzard points out that the announcement by key Tory
>strategist and Harris confidant, Tom Long, that he was going to
>work for the United Alternative was significant. "As part of Harris'
>inner circle he would have some idea of the premier's thinking on the U.A.
Harris has always maintained a close liaison with Manning as their
thoughts on "fiscal conservatism" appears very similar. Harris
projects well, and proved that in his first win in Ontario.
>There is, of course, Harris' commitment to the people of Ontario after
>his recent majority election victory to serve out his term. But Harris feels
>hamstrung in Ontario as he sees, like Lucien Bouchard, that the Canadian federation
>is not working and is going from bad to worse. Most thinking Canadians world
>agree. Harris feels relatively helpless even as premier of Canada's greatest
>province, and believes that the only solution to cleaning up the mess in Ottawa
>is to get rid of the Chretien Liberals.
>
>Ms. Blizzard points out, that whether or not you agree with Harris, you must
>allow that unlike Chretien he is a man of his word. And voters may be so delighted
>to have some credible alternative to Chretien and his Liberals that they would almost
>forgive Harris anything.
What's to forgive? His policies have succeeded this far. The only
people whining are the lazy and those who are unsure of thier own
abilities (the teachers). Other then that, Ontario is once more the
"core" of the apple.
>Canadians remember, she points out, that Chretien promised to spend $500 million
>canceling a helicopter deal and $60 million to cancel Pearson expansion, only
>to discover later on that we have no search and rescue capacity and Pearson
>airport is gridlocked. He promised to cancel the Free Trade Agreement,
>NAFTA, the GST and lower taxes. Instead, he discovered we really need
>free trade and he doubled CPP premiums. He promised an end to Mulroney-
>like patronage, but his government has become the worst in Canada's history
>for patronage and crony capitalism Chretien's personal credibility and integrity
>has been tarnished by the Shawinigan and Saint Maurice Quebec scandals. His
>criticism of Mulroney's extravagant foreign travel rings hollow, as now Chretien
>is the unchallenged Babe Ruth of exotic traveling Canadian P.M.s.
The worst part of those descriptive short-comings is not the fact that
Chretein knew he couldn't deliver, but the fact that people accepted
his "confirmed" lies and voted him in the second time. Now, who is the
real fools in this picture?
>Chretien criticized Mulroney for the latter's coziness with the U.S., but the
>Americanization of Canada has gone into overdrive under Chretien. Right
>now our airlines and telecommunications industries are in danger of falling
>under American control. Canada is losing the bulk of its major league sports
>teams because of the debased C$ and exorbitant taxation.
The Martin/Chretein "dollar" policy is the largest factor in the
so-called "Americanization" of Canada. Let's face it, they can buy at
a bargain.
> Our armed forces
>have become a joke with their under staffing and obsolete and worn out
>equipment. Morale with the RCMP is at an all time low, with their worn out
>equipment and cars running on bald tires. Highway infrastructure in Canada
>is a disgrace.
>
>Further, Chretien's federal Liberals have turned a blind eye and deaf
>ear to the increasing homelessness in Canada's major cities, and medicare is inferior and
>badly under funded. Chretien's Liberals should know that Canadians are becoming
>restive especially when they see that their personal indebtedness is at a all time
>high and their personal savings and wealth are much lower than they were
>in 1989.
All true, but what does this have with the fact that Harris may run
for the UA? If he does, and Canadians stop to smell the roses and look
at what we have for a government, then and only then, would Mikey
become PM.
Frunk
fr...@hotmail.com
>Ciceroii (cice...@home.com) wrote:
<<snip>>
>And when Harris forms a "Progressive Conservative Government" what new
>group of criminals and separtists will he bring to replace Mulroney's
>Bouchard, Crossbie, Wilson, not to mention jailed Conservative Senators,
>Provincial Cabinet Ministers, and judicial appointees? Maybe he would
>appoint Ralph Klein as the Bilingual Commissioner.
So what is different from what we have?
<<snip>>
>No doubt about it. The Conservatives are on the ropes, and hope to subvert
>the Reform Party to stay in the game. But Canadians have had enough. What
>we want is an "extinct" Progressive Conservative Party.
Would you like a one-party system? That appears to be your goal here.
<<snip>>
>Perhaps most of this is true, but you should give credit where credit is
>due. Brian Mulroney nearly destroyed Canada.
I am far from being a Mulroney fan, but this is absolutely false.
Turner, Trudeau and Mulroney must share this distinction. I suggest
you research some of the destruction before you apply it to any one
person.
> It will take a miracle to
>restore Canadian independence, but it could happen under Chretien.
What in hell are you talking about, restore what "independence"? What
do you propose? The low Canadian dollar is the largest single factor
today that is creating an Americanization of Canada. Not that it is
totally bad, but it means they can pack up and go home anytime they
want to leaving the economy high and dry. Remember that the dollar has
dropped as much as .20 cents (at times) under the Chretein government.
> As for
>right wingers, they have a perfect right of centre alternative in Mr.
>Manning's Reform Party. However, what is no longer on the table is a
>perverted and dishonest Conservative Party. If the right wing wants to
>govern, they are going to have to do it lawfully. Mr. Manning offers them
>an honest way to achieve that goal.
You're displaying your lack of knowledge of the political life of
Canada. The reason that the PC party faltered was due to it's
"liberal" policies. There hasn't been a "blue" Tory for many moons in
this country. There is so little difference between the policies of
the PC's and Liberals that you have to check "the curlies" to see if
there is a difference.
<<snip>>
>Most Canadians are grown up enough to understand that all our troubles
>began with Brian Mulroney and his efforts to apply extreme right wing
>republican political policies to our situation in Canada.
Like what? You cannot include free trade and the GST in these
arguments. And don't forget, the Liberals have not only accepted these
programs, but have expanded free trade. So, "can you tell the
difference?".
> It failed, and
>there is now a heavy price to pay, from our financial well being and
>independence under FTA and NAFTA, to the near total destruction of the
>Canadian social safety net.
Prove it!! It shut the hell up!! You have no idea of what you are
talking about. If this is the case, why hasn't the mighty Liberals
called of NAFTA? Know why, because they are a bunch of lying s.o.b.'s
just like the Tories. So back to checking "curlies" with you.
>The reality for Canadians is that Conservatives do not know how to manage
>technology and change. They could not do it under MacDonald with the
>CPR railway, they could not do it with Diefenbaker and the Avro Arrow, and
>they could not do it with Mulroney and the Internet.
What utter nonsense! You must be way past your bedtime little man.
>At least Reform's Manning understands technology and change, and at least
>Mr. Manning at one time worked for a living. Who can say the same for Joe
>Who?
I will agree with that. As stated by Manning "you can't jump start a
747 with a flashlight battery". Given that I guess it would better
qualify him as a technologist.
>Joe Green
Frunk
hifl...@ecn.ab.ca
: hifl...@ecn.ab.ca wrote:
: > Ciceroii (cice...@home.com) wrote:
: >
: > No doubt about it. The Conservatives are on the ropes, and hope to subvert
: > the Reform Party to stay in the game. But Canadians have had enough. What
: > we want is an "extinct" Progressive Conservative Party.
: >
: Maybe Western Canadians want an extinct PC party, but support remains strong in
: Atlantic Canada and the PC's are the second place party in Ontario.
Ontario will never accept any political party they cannot dominate and
control. But at least the presence of Reform will ensure that Conrad
Black, Mulroney and other right wing lunatics from Ontario will never
again damage our Country, and certainly never again damage the West.
: > Perhaps most of this is true, but you should give credit where credit is
: > due. Brian Mulroney nearly destroyed Canada. It will take a miracle to
: > restore Canadian independence, but it could happen under Chretien.
: Chretien has mearly continued where Brian Mulroney left off, the same policies, just a
: bit different style of governing.
Give me a break. Last week the Liberals even succeeded in getting the
Mounties image back from Disney. No big deal, but why do I feel so much
better!
: > As for
: > right wingers, they have a perfect right of centre alternative in Mr.
: > Manning's Reform Party. However, what is no longer on the table is a
: > perverted and dishonest Conservative Party. If the right wing wants to
: > govern, they are going to have to do it lawfully. Mr. Manning offers them
: > an honest way to achieve that goal.
: Reform will never be able to form a governement without the Tories help... they simply
: do not have enough support east of Manitoba.
The criminals in the Progressive Conservative Party is the last thing
Manning needs. What Reform needs to do is to stay the course, spread its
message, and give other Canadians an opportunity to participate in a right
of center political party free of criminals, crazys and wannabees.
: >
: > Most Canadians are grown up enough to understand that all our troubles
: > began with Brian Mulroney and his efforts to apply extreme right wing
: > republican political policies to our situation in Canada. It failed, and
: > there is now a heavy price to pay, from our financial well being and
: > independence under FTA and NAFTA, to the near total destruction of the
: > Canadian social safety net.
: >
: Extreme right wing policies? Mulroney never cut taxes nor balenced the budget. His
: primary focus was to solve Canada's constitutional problems with Meach Lake and
: Charlettown. It is unfortuanate that he failed.
Extreme right wing policies (fascism by another name) are directed at
centralization of authority (the classic definition of facscism),
monopolization of industry, and concentration of wealth and power.
Where have you been during the Mulroney years?
: >
: > The reality for Canadians is that Conservatives do not know how to manage
: > technology and change. They could not do it under MacDonald with the
: > CPR railway, they could not do it with Diefenbaker and the Avro Arrow, and
: > they could not do it with Mulroney and the Internet.
: >
: How on earth did Mulroney screw up the internet? It only became available for general
: public use just as he resigned (1992 I believe).
Just look at the mess the Progressive Conservative made with the FTA and
telecommunications policy in general. In the West alone, the largest
telephone companies (which are the common carriers for Internet) are all
foreign owned and controlled, often through obscure appointees who are
lawyers from the Conservative Party.
You folks at Ryesson, particularly in the telecommunications programs,
should start to study some of the goings on at the CRTC during the
Mulroney years, and see what a legacy of bankruptcy he left us with.
: ---
: Wes Moxam
: http://www.scs.ryerson.ca/wmoxam : http://yi.org/rgds
Joe Green
hifl...@ecn.ab.ca
: On Sun, 26 Sep 1999 15:45:09 GMT, Ciceroii <cice...@home.com> wrote:
: {In a Sunday Sun column titled "Harris has the strength to
: {unite the right'' conservative Christina Blizzard maintains that
: {this is a strong possibility. She claims that Mike Harris, unlike Preston
: {Manning, would appeal to the right-wing in both the West and
: {Ontario. And that Harris would even have the strong support of Lucien
: {Bouchard in Quebec, who although not a small-c conservative detests
: {Jean Chretien's Liberals. So the political wisdom is that Harris could
: {even make a strong showing in Quebec, although Atlantic Canada would
: {be a right-off.
: [snip]
: An ontario premier appeal to the west?
: That's laughable.
Ha. Ha. Ha. Harris get support in the West? As a Progressive Conservative?
Ha. Ha. Ha. And maybe Joe Who will hue the wood and carry the water for
Ontario. Ha. Ha. Ha.
What have you been smoking? It makes you say really funny stuff.
: Quetario, in itself, I think has completely seperated from the west
: unofficialy. Ignoring our problems and taking our money at the same
: time.
And don't forget "no respect". Actually if the West supported the
Progressive Conservatives under Mike Harris (aka Conrad Black) we would
deserve no respect for being that dumb.
: BC should seperate and establish a seperate system temporarily, and
: then decide things such as statehood and provincialhood.
There is a cure for separtism (in Quebec as well as BC). It is called
common sense. What is needed is a first Ministers Conference in
Tuktoyuktuk in December in an unheated igloo.
: Seperation of powers is a nessasry thing which will never happen with
: 2 provinces having all the power.
Quebec and Ontario elites want it all their own way. Always have. Always
will. The question is do they want a country bad enough to work for it.
Hard question.
: Gölök Zoltán Leenderdt Franco Buday
: Free-Lance Writer; Humourist; Mental Patient
: Vancouver, BC
: The My Ego Times: http://MyEgoTimes.virtualave.net/
: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: Veritas: "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death
: your right to say it" - Voltaire.
: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Joe Green
hifl...@ecn.ab.ca
: >In a Sunday Sun column titled "Harris has the strength to
: >unite the right'' conservative Christina Blizzard maintains that
: >this is a strong possibility. She claims that Mike Harris, unlike Preston
: >Manning, would appeal to the right-wing in both the West and
: >Ontario. And that Harris would even have the strong support of Lucien
: >Bouchard in Quebec, who although not a small-c conservative detests
: >Jean Chretien's Liberals. So the political wisdom is that Harris could
: >even make a strong showing in Quebec, although Atlantic Canada would
: >be a right-off.
: Not true. The Atlantic Provinces would support Harris. Joe Clark is
: not well-liked in this part of the country. People in NB and NS voted
: Tory last time to send a message to the Liberals. It has also resulted
: in three Tory governments here.
Maritimers might support any Tory that could bring home a little "payola".
But when will the Maritimers come to accept that they live in a rich part
of Canada, that can provide a good living for everyone, if they would just
stop giving everything away to Irving and Family?
: >Christina Blizzard points out that the announcement by key Tory
: >strategist and Harris confidant, Tom Long, that he was going to
: >work for the United Alternative was significant. "As part of Harris'
: >inner circle he would have some idea of the premier's thinking on the U.A.
: Harris has always maintained a close liaison with Manning as their
: thoughts on "fiscal conservatism" appears very similar. Harris
: projects well, and proved that in his first win in Ontario.
That is about all they agree on. Manning is a "social conservative" and a
strong Christian churchman. Manning is like his Dad. He will not tollerate
any corruption, even a little. That is really bad news for Ontario
Conservatives, who are as addicted to graft and corruption as kittens are
to catnip.
: >There is, of course, Harris' commitment to the people of Ontario after
: >his recent majority election victory to serve out his term. But Harris feels
: >hamstrung in Ontario as he sees, like Lucien Bouchard, that the Canadian federation
: >is not working and is going from bad to worse. Most thinking Canadians world
: >agree. Harris feels relatively helpless even as premier of Canada's greatest
: >province, and believes that the only solution to cleaning up the mess in Ottawa
: >is to get rid of the Chretien Liberals.
: >
: >Ms. Blizzard points out, that whether or not you agree with Harris, you must
: >allow that unlike Chretien he is a man of his word. And voters may be so delighted
: >to have some credible alternative to Chretien and his Liberals that they would almost
: >forgive Harris anything.
: What's to forgive? His policies have succeeded this far. The only
: people whining are the lazy and those who are unsure of thier own
: abilities (the teachers). Other then that, Ontario is once more the
: "core" of the apple.
Ontario's dramatic recovery from the Mulroney years have much, much less
to do with Mike Harris, then it has to do with the Federal Government and
favorable policies toward Ontario, and some of the early work that Bob Rae
began as Premier. Harris is like Klein. Neither know much about governing.
: >Canadians remember, she points out, that Chretien promised to spend $500 million
: >canceling a helicopter deal and $60 million to cancel Pearson expansion, only
: >to discover later on that we have no search and rescue capacity and Pearson
: >airport is gridlocked. He promised to cancel the Free Trade Agreement,
: >NAFTA, the GST and lower taxes. Instead, he discovered we really need
: >free trade and he doubled CPP premiums. He promised an end to Mulroney-
: >like patronage, but his government has become the worst in Canada's history
: >for patronage and crony capitalism Chretien's personal credibility and integrity
: >has been tarnished by the Shawinigan and Saint Maurice Quebec scandals. His
: >criticism of Mulroney's extravagant foreign travel rings hollow, as now Chretien
: >is the unchallenged Babe Ruth of exotic traveling Canadian P.M.s.
: The worst part of those descriptive short-comings is not the fact that
: Chretein knew he couldn't deliver, but the fact that people accepted
: his "confirmed" lies and voted him in the second time. Now, who is the
: real fools in this picture?
No you have it all wrong. The problems left by Mulroney have scared this
Nation for a generation. If the Prime Minister is unable to introduce what
he promised on the GST, its because we still are climbing out of a very
deep hole created by criminals in the Conservative Party.
: >Chretien criticized Mulroney for the latter's coziness with the U.S., but the
: >Americanization of Canada has gone into overdrive under Chretien. Right
: >now our airlines and telecommunications industries are in danger of falling
: >under American control. Canada is losing the bulk of its major league sports
: >teams because of the debased C$ and exorbitant taxation.
: The Martin/Chretein "dollar" policy is the largest factor in the
: so-called "Americanization" of Canada. Let's face it, they can buy at
: a bargain.
Mulroney tied their hands. We will have a low dollar for another decade,
when new businesses not being created start to come on line.
: > Our armed forces
: >have become a joke with their under staffing and obsolete and worn out
: >equipment. Morale with the RCMP is at an all time low, with their worn out
: >equipment and cars running on bald tires. Highway infrastructure in Canada
: >is a disgrace.
This is plane wrong. The RCMP have just recoved their image from Mickey
Mouse. That has to be good for morale.
: >
: >Further, Chretien's federal Liberals have turned a blind eye and deaf
: >ear to the increasing homelessness in Canada's major cities, and medicare is inferior and
: >badly under funded. Chretien's Liberals should know that Canadians are becoming
: >restive especially when they see that their personal indebtedness is at a all time
: >high and their personal savings and wealth are much lower than they were
: >in 1989.
: All true, but what does this have with the fact that Harris may run
: for the UA? If he does, and Canadians stop to smell the roses and look
: at what we have for a government, then and only then, would Mikey
: become PM.
I think Harris should run and lose his ass. There is a practical limit to
the "smoke and mirrors" image that Conrad's money can buy.
: Frunk
Joe Green
hifl...@ecn.ab.ca
: On 27 Sep 99 01:09:30 GMT, hifl...@ecn.ab.ca () wrote:
: >Ciceroii (cice...@home.com) wrote:
: <<snip>>
: >And when Harris forms a "Progressive Conservative Government" what new
: >group of criminals and separtists will he bring to replace Mulroney's
: >Bouchard, Crossbie, Wilson, not to mention jailed Conservative Senators,
: >Provincial Cabinet Ministers, and judicial appointees? Maybe he would
: >appoint Ralph Klein as the Bilingual Commissioner.
: So what is different from what we have?
By my count of criminal convictions, its Progressive Conservative 18, NDP
1, Liberals 0. The record speaks for itself.
: <<snip>>
: >No doubt about it. The Conservatives are on the ropes, and hope to subvert
: >the Reform Party to stay in the game. But Canadians have had enough. What
: >we want is an "extinct" Progressive Conservative Party.
: Would you like a one-party system? That appears to be your goal here.
No. I would like the folks in Ontario and the Maritimes to turn toward
honest government that is free of graft and corruption, and help Preston
build the Reform Party in their neighbourhood, and make it their own. That
is what I hope for in Eastern Canada. We should bury the Progressive
Conservative Party as a historical relic representing the worst of the
Family Compact.
: <<snip>>
: >Perhaps most of this is true, but you should give credit where credit is
: >due. Brian Mulroney nearly destroyed Canada.
: I am far from being a Mulroney fan, but this is absolutely false.
: Turner, Trudeau and Mulroney must share this distinction. I suggest
: you research some of the destruction before you apply it to any one
: person.
In finance alone, this lunatic increased the public debt from 154 billion
(an accumulated debt since Confederation to 1984 when Mulroney took over)
to at least 470 billion.
This debt will saddle a generation, and will spell the end of Canada as we
knew it.
: > It will take a miracle to
: >restore Canadian independence, but it could happen under Chretien.
: What in hell are you talking about, restore what "independence"? What
: do you propose?
The FTA and NAFTA has so seriously compromised our Country's independence,
that today the Government does not even have the freedom of action to even
encourage Canadians to preferentially invest in their own Country!!!
Just wake up and smell the coffee. Kantor (US negotiator) said "in ten
years we will have them". I hope he's wrong, but I fear he's right.
: The low Canadian dollar is the largest single factor
: today that is creating an Americanization of Canada. Not that it is
: totally bad, but it means they can pack up and go home anytime they
: want to leaving the economy high and dry. Remember that the dollar has
: dropped as much as .20 cents (at times) under the Chretein government.
: > As for
: >right wingers, they have a perfect right of centre alternative in Mr.
: >Manning's Reform Party. However, what is no longer on the table is a
: >perverted and dishonest Conservative Party. If the right wing wants to
: >govern, they are going to have to do it lawfully. Mr. Manning offers them
: >an honest way to achieve that goal.
: You're displaying your lack of knowledge of the political life of
: Canada. The reason that the PC party faltered was due to it's
: "liberal" policies.
The Mulroney Progressive Conservative Government was driven from office
because of graft and corruption and is reflected in Saskachewan and
Manitoba, where the Party has collapsed. I say good riddance.
: There hasn't been a "blue" Tory for many moons in
: this country. There is so little difference between the policies of
: the PC's and Liberals that you have to check "the curlies" to see if
: there is a difference.
: <<snip>>
Not as I see it. I actually see no difference between Progressive
Conservatives and Ukraine's communists, when it comes to political
tactics. The only difference, is that in Canada the Conservatives wear
blue tee shirts, and in Ukraine the communists wear red tee shirts.
: >Most Canadians are grown up enough to understand that all our troubles
: >began with Brian Mulroney and his efforts to apply extreme right wing
: >republican political policies to our situation in Canada.
: Like what? You cannot include free trade and the GST in these
: arguments. And don't forget, the Liberals have not only accepted these
: programs, but have expanded free trade. So, "can you tell the
: difference?".
The GST thing is not finished. But the hole Mulroney dug under Canada is
so deep that this most hated tax in Canadian history cannot be removed
without endangering the Country. I understand it. But I still hate it.
: >It failed, and
: >there is now a heavy price to pay, from our financial well being and
: >independence under FTA and NAFTA, to the near total destruction of the
: >Canadian social safety net.
: Prove it!! It shut the hell up!! You have no idea of what you are
: talking about.
Nice move Exlax!!!
It will take a book to document the harm and damage done to Canada by
Conservatives, the FTA and NAFTA. The damage is not on this side of the
border alone. Many American communities have also been harmed, some
critically. I do not expect Conrad Black would allow such explosive stuff
to be published in his papers. But open your eyes, look around, and
integrate all that you see.
: If this is the case, why hasn't the mighty Liberals
: called of NAFTA? Know why, because they are a bunch of lying s.o.b.'s
: just like the Tories. So back to checking "curlies" with you.
The Chretien Liberals have their hands tied by the Mulroney legacy. Its a
miracle that Canada still exercises a small degree of independence. We
came within a whisker of becoming a Puerto Rico, and we still might fall
in. Wake up and smell the coffee.
: >The reality for Canadians is that Conservatives do not know how to manage
: >technology and change. They could not do it under MacDonald with the
: >CPR railway, they could not do it with Diefenbaker and the Avro Arrow, and
: >they could not do it with Mulroney and the Internet.
: What utter nonsense! You must be way past your bedtime little man.
Go ahead and try to generate any propaganda you wish. The truth is cast in
stone in the history books of this Nation. Do you think I just made it up
about John A. MacDonald, or Mr. Diefenbaker? In Diefenbaker's case, the
Conservatives were not satisfied with just destroying the Arrow Program.
No, they resorted to vandalism and left finished aircraft cut up in pieces
on the runways of Toronto's airport. All bought and paid for by Canadian
taxpayers. Read it! Its a historic FACT in our Canadian history, complete
with live television footage! Open your eyes! Read!
: >At least Reform's Manning understands technology and change, and at least
: >Mr. Manning at one time worked for a living. Who can say the same for Joe
: >Who?
: I will agree with that. As stated by Manning "you can't jump start a
: 747 with a flashlight battery". Given that I guess it would better
: qualify him as a technologist.
He did his degree in Physics at the University of Alberta. In contast, Joe
never finished Law. I call that a quitter.
: >Joe Green
: Frunk
Joe Green
Court Jester™/The Voltairian
{Court Jester™/The Voltairian (form@*.mysite.van.bc.ca) wrote:
{: On Sun, 26 Sep 1999 15:45:09 GMT, Ciceroii <cice...@home.com> wrote:
{: An ontario premier appeal to the west?
{
{: That's laughable.
{
{Ha. Ha. Ha. Harris get support in the West? As a Progressive Conservative?
{Ha. Ha. Ha. And maybe Joe Who will hue the wood and carry the water for
{Ontario. Ha. Ha. Ha.
{
{What have you been smoking? It makes you say really funny stuff.
My point exactly.
{: Quetario, in itself, I think has completely seperated from the west
{: unofficialy. Ignoring our problems and taking our money at the same
{: time.
{
{And don't forget "no respect". Actually if the West supported the
{Progressive Conservatives under Mike Harris (aka Conrad Black) we would
{deserve no respect for being that dumb.
I don't think we would. The NDP was chosen because of being
traditionaly populist, same goes for Reform neither party remained
populist. Assuming Reform Canada was to begin with.
The Tories are far from Populist. As are the Liberals. Certainly
Harris is.
{: BC should seperate and establish a seperate system temporarily, and
{: then decide things such as statehood and provincialhood.
{
{There is a cure for separtism (in Quebec as well as BC). It is called
{common sense. What is needed is a first Ministers Conference in
{Tuktoyuktuk in December in an unheated igloo.
There is no cure for it. Every province must evaluate seperatism as
an option, play their cards. If Canada finds the West that
unimportant, then the west bails, if not, the country may become
stronger.
{: Seperation of powers is a nessasry thing which will never happen with
{: 2 provinces having all the power.
{
{Quebec and Ontario elites want it all their own way. Always have. Always
{will. The question is do they want a country bad enough to work for it.
{Hard question.
They have one, we don't.
I also notice the west is much less loyalist then the East. This may
have a factor on how eastern Canada treats us in the west,
Gölök Zoltán Leenderdt Franco Buday
Free-Lance Writer; Humourist; Mental Patient
Vancouver, BC
The My Ego Times: http://MyEgoTimes.virtualave.net/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Veritas: "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death
your right to say it" - Voltaire.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
fr...@hotmail.com
>fr...@hotmail.com wrote:
>: On 27 Sep 99 01:09:30 GMT, hifl...@ecn.ab.ca () wrote:
>: So what is different from what we have?
>
>By my count of criminal convictions, its Progressive Conservative 18, NDP
>1, Liberals 0. The record speaks for itself.
Or the fact that the Liberals are masters are hiding it. Besides,
would a Liberal appointed court convict one of their own?
>: <<snip>>
>: >No doubt about it. The Conservatives are on the ropes, and hope to subvert
>: >the Reform Party to stay in the game. But Canadians have had enough. What
>: >we want is an "extinct" Progressive Conservative Party.
>
>: Would you like a one-party system? That appears to be your goal here.
>
>No. I would like the folks in Ontario and the Maritimes to turn toward
>honest government that is free of graft and corruption, and help Preston
>build the Reform Party in their neighbourhood, and make it their own. That
>is what I hope for in Eastern Canada. We should bury the Progressive
>Conservative Party as a historical relic representing the worst of the
>Family Compact.
I can share that thought. The problems is that people in the Maritimes
are slow to re-act to a new policy or party. They are building the
Reform party here and it appears to be becoming quite visible. Many of
my friends have indicated they will vote Reform federally in the nect
election.
>: <<snip>>
>: >Perhaps most of this is true, but you should give credit where credit is
>: >due. Brian Mulroney nearly destroyed Canada.
>
>: I am far from being a Mulroney fan, but this is absolutely false.
>: Turner, Trudeau and Mulroney must share this distinction. I suggest
>: you research some of the destruction before you apply it to any one
>: person.
>
>In finance alone, this lunatic increased the public debt from 154 billion
>(an accumulated debt since Confederation to 1984 when Mulroney took over)
>to at least 470 billion.
>
>This debt will saddle a generation, and will spell the end of Canada as we
>knew it.
The debt is manageable with the right leadership. Problem is, it isn't
there right now.
>
>: > It will take a miracle to
>: >restore Canadian independence, but it could happen under Chretien.
>
>: What in hell are you talking about, restore what "independence"? What
>: do you propose?
>
>The FTA and NAFTA has so seriously compromised our Country's independence,
>that today the Government does not even have the freedom of action to even
>encourage Canadians to preferentially invest in their own Country!!!
>Just wake up and smell the coffee. Kantor (US negotiator) said "in ten
>years we will have them". I hope he's wrong, but I fear he's right.
Canadians never have been investors like the US people are. We are
also highly taxed and do not have the tax loop-holes enjoyed by the
Americans. Free Trade has been good for Canada, but the low dollar,
being sustained by the government is hiding the true picture.
>
>: The low Canadian dollar is the largest single factor
>: today that is creating an Americanization of Canada. Not that it is
>: totally bad, but it means they can pack up and go home anytime they
>: want to leaving the economy high and dry. Remember that the dollar has
>: dropped as much as .20 cents (at times) under the Chretein government.
>
>: > As for
>: >right wingers, they have a perfect right of centre alternative in Mr.
>: >Manning's Reform Party. However, what is no longer on the table is a
>: >perverted and dishonest Conservative Party. If the right wing wants to
>: >govern, they are going to have to do it lawfully. Mr. Manning offers them
>: >an honest way to achieve that goal.
>
>: You're displaying your lack of knowledge of the political life of
>: Canada. The reason that the PC party faltered was due to it's
>: "liberal" policies.
>
>The Mulroney Progressive Conservative Government was driven from office
>because of graft and corruption and is reflected in Saskachewan and
>Manitoba, where the Party has collapsed. I say good riddance.
Your confusing Provincial and Federal politics. Saskatchewan PC
(Devine) crooks had nothing to do with the Mulroney government.
>
>: There hasn't been a "blue" Tory for many moons in
>: this country. There is so little difference between the policies of
>: the PC's and Liberals that you have to check "the curlies" to see if
>: there is a difference.
>: <<snip>>
>
>Not as I see it. I actually see no difference between Progressive
>Conservatives and Ukraine's communists, when it comes to political
>tactics. The only difference, is that in Canada the Conservatives wear
>blue tee shirts, and in Ukraine the communists wear red tee shirts.
Maybe their Liberals. ;-)
>: >Most Canadians are grown up enough to understand that all our troubles
>: >began with Brian Mulroney and his efforts to apply extreme right wing
>: >republican political policies to our situation in Canada.
>
>: Like what? You cannot include free trade and the GST in these
>: arguments. And don't forget, the Liberals have not only accepted these
>: programs, but have expanded free trade. So, "can you tell the
>: difference?".
>
>The GST thing is not finished. But the hole Mulroney dug under Canada is
>so deep that this most hated tax in Canadian history cannot be removed
>without endangering the Country. I understand it. But I still hate it.
You mean to tell me that you would prefer the (hidden)MST to the GST?
>
>: >It failed, and
>: >there is now a heavy price to pay, from our financial well being and
>: >independence under FTA and NAFTA, to the near total destruction of the
>: >Canadian social safety net.
>
>: Prove it!! It shut the hell up!! You have no idea of what you are
>: talking about.
>
>Nice move Exlax!!!
>
>It will take a book to document the harm and damage done to Canada by
>Conservatives, the FTA and NAFTA.
I don't need a book. Give me five examples what FTA and NAFTA has done
that is so bad?
>The damage is not on this side of the
>border alone. Many American communities have also been harmed, some
>critically.
Name five!
> I do not expect Conrad Black would allow such explosive stuff
>to be published in his papers. But open your eyes, look around, and
>integrate all that you see.
I do not rely on the media for my facts. Go to the source!!
>: If this is the case, why hasn't the mighty Liberals
>: called of NAFTA? Know why, because they are a bunch of lying s.o.b.'s
>: just like the Tories. So back to checking "curlies" with you.
>
>The Chretien Liberals have their hands tied by the Mulroney legacy. Its a
>miracle that Canada still exercises a small degree of independence. We
>came within a whisker of becoming a Puerto Rico, and we still might fall
>in. Wake up and smell the coffee.
You're so full of shit that your eye's are brown. The US wants no part
of Canada. Why would they take on a "State" with socialized medicine,
high taxes, high debt, Quebec's problems, our flimsey welfare policy,
EI policy, 8% (on average) unemployed, a depleted armed forces, and
the list goes on and on. Would you invest in a company with those
problems? I don't think so.
>
>: >The reality for Canadians is that Conservatives do not know how to manage
>: >technology and change. They could not do it under MacDonald with the
>: >CPR railway, they could not do it with Diefenbaker and the Avro Arrow, and
>: >they could not do it with Mulroney and the Internet.
>
>: What utter nonsense! You must be way past your bedtime little man.
>
>Go ahead and try to generate any propaganda you wish. The truth is cast in
>stone in the history books of this Nation. Do you think I just made it up
>about John A. MacDonald, or Mr. Diefenbaker? In Diefenbaker's case, the
>Conservatives were not satisfied with just destroying the Arrow Program.
>No, they resorted to vandalism and left finished aircraft cut up in pieces
>on the runways of Toronto's airport. All bought and paid for by Canadian
>taxpayers. Read it! Its a historic FACT in our Canadian history, complete
>with live television footage! Open your eyes! Read!
Anything you read is open to your own interpretation. Being a closer
to the Arrow project then you could have possibly been, I'll tell you
again that you don not know what you are talking about. It is a
political football that cannot last the game when the facts are known.
BTW, can you tell me who had placed orders for an Arrow? Or who was
remotely interested in it's high price tag?
>
>: >At least Reform's Manning understands technology and change, and at least
>: >Mr. Manning at one time worked for a living. Who can say the same for Joe
>: >Who?
>
>: I will agree with that. As stated by Manning "you can't jump start a
>: 747 with a flashlight battery". Given that I guess it would better
>: qualify him as a technologist.
>
>He did his degree in Physics at the University of Alberta. In contast, Joe
>never finished Law. I call that a quitter.
He finished, but didn't pass the Bar examination. That's why he cannot
fight Maureen in the courts, as she has passed the "Bar".
>
Frunk
fr...@hotmail.com
>Court Jester™/The Voltairian (form@*.mysite.van.bc.ca) wrote:
>: On Sun, 26 Sep 1999 15:45:09 GMT, Ciceroii <cice...@home.com> wrote:
>
>: {In a Sunday Sun column titled "Harris has the strength to
>: {unite the right'' conservative Christina Blizzard maintains that
>: {this is a strong possibility. She claims that Mike Harris, unlike Preston
>: {Manning, would appeal to the right-wing in both the West and
>: {Ontario. And that Harris would even have the strong support of Lucien
>: {Bouchard in Quebec, who although not a small-c conservative detests
>: {Jean Chretien's Liberals. So the political wisdom is that Harris could
>: {even make a strong showing in Quebec, although Atlantic Canada would
>: {be a right-off.
>
>: [snip]
>
>: An ontario premier appeal to the west?
>
>: That's laughable.
>
>Ha. Ha. Ha. Harris get support in the West? As a Progressive Conservative?
>Ha. Ha. Ha. And maybe Joe Who will hue the wood and carry the water for
>Ontario. Ha. Ha. Ha.
>
>What have you been smoking? It makes you say really funny stuff.
I think he meant that Harris would run as a Reformer/UA and not a PC.
>
>: Quetario, in itself, I think has completely seperated from the west
>: unofficialy. Ignoring our problems and taking our money at the same
>: time.
>
>And don't forget "no respect". Actually if the West supported the
>Progressive Conservatives under Mike Harris (aka Conrad Black) we would
>deserve no respect for being that dumb.
>
>: BC should seperate and establish a seperate system temporarily, and
>: then decide things such as statehood and provincialhood.
>
>There is a cure for separtism (in Quebec as well as BC). It is called
>common sense. What is needed is a first Ministers Conference in
>Tuktoyuktuk in December in an unheated igloo.
>
>: Seperation of powers is a nessasry thing which will never happen with
>: 2 provinces having all the power.
>
>Quebec and Ontario elites want it all their own way. Always have. Always
>will. The question is do they want a country bad enough to work for it.
>Hard question.
>
>: Gölök Zoltán Leenderdt Franco Buday
>: Free-Lance Writer; Humourist; Mental Patient
>: Vancouver, BC
>
>: The My Ego Times: http://MyEgoTimes.virtualave.net/
>: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>: Veritas: "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death
>: your right to say it" - Voltaire.
>: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>Joe Green
>
fr...@hotmail.com
>fr...@hotmail.com wrote:
>: On Sun, 26 Sep 1999 15:45:09 GMT, Ciceroii <cice...@home.com> wrote:
>: Not true. The Atlantic Provinces would support Harris. Joe Clark is
>: not well-liked in this part of the country. People in NB and NS voted
>: Tory last time to send a message to the Liberals. It has also resulted
>: in three Tory governments here.
>
>Maritimers might support any Tory that could bring home a little "payola".
>But when will the Maritimers come to accept that they live in a rich part
>of Canada, that can provide a good living for everyone, if they would just
>stop giving everything away to Irving and Family?
I'm far from being an Irving fan, but they have been good for the
Maritimes. At least they stay and have never taken the financial aid
and run like companies from Ontario (Dynatek to name one).
>
>: >Christina Blizzard points out that the announcement by key Tory
>: >strategist and Harris confidant, Tom Long, that he was going to
>: >work for the United Alternative was significant. "As part of Harris'
>: >inner circle he would have some idea of the premier's thinking on the U.A.
>
>: Harris has always maintained a close liaison with Manning as their
>: thoughts on "fiscal conservatism" appears very similar. Harris
>: projects well, and proved that in his first win in Ontario.
>
>That is about all they agree on. Manning is a "social conservative" and a
>strong Christian churchman. Manning is like his Dad. He will not tollerate
>any corruption, even a little. That is really bad news for Ontario
>Conservatives, who are as addicted to graft and corruption as kittens are
>to catnip.
Do you really believe that? I have more faith in humanity then that.
>
>: >There is, of course, Harris' commitment to the people of Ontario after
>: >his recent majority election victory to serve out his term. But Harris feels
>: >hamstrung in Ontario as he sees, like Lucien Bouchard, that the Canadian federation
>: >is not working and is going from bad to worse. Most thinking Canadians world
>: >agree. Harris feels relatively helpless even as premier of Canada's greatest
>: >province, and believes that the only solution to cleaning up the mess in Ottawa
>: >is to get rid of the Chretien Liberals.
>: >
>: >Ms. Blizzard points out, that whether or not you agree with Harris, you must
>: >allow that unlike Chretien he is a man of his word. And voters may be so delighted
>: >to have some credible alternative to Chretien and his Liberals that they would almost
>: >forgive Harris anything.
>
>: What's to forgive? His policies have succeeded this far. The only
>: people whining are the lazy and those who are unsure of thier own
>: abilities (the teachers). Other then that, Ontario is once more the
>: "core" of the apple.
>
>Ontario's dramatic recovery from the Mulroney years have much, much less
>to do with Mike Harris, then it has to do with the Federal Government and
>favorable policies toward Ontario, and some of the early work that Bob Rae
>began as Premier. Harris is like Klein. Neither know much about governing.
What qualifies you to come up with that analysis? Harris told the
electorate (the first time) what he intended to do. He did as promised
and it got him elected again. I agree that Ontario has benefited from
the American prosperity, but it still requires good management to
secure the confidence of investors.
>
>: >Canadians remember, she points out, that Chretien promised to spend $500 million
>: >canceling a helicopter deal and $60 million to cancel Pearson expansion, only
>: >to discover later on that we have no search and rescue capacity and Pearson
>: >airport is gridlocked. He promised to cancel the Free Trade Agreement,
>: >NAFTA, the GST and lower taxes. Instead, he discovered we really need
>: >free trade and he doubled CPP premiums. He promised an end to Mulroney-
>: >like patronage, but his government has become the worst in Canada's history
>: >for patronage and crony capitalism Chretien's personal credibility and integrity
>: >has been tarnished by the Shawinigan and Saint Maurice Quebec scandals. His
>: >criticism of Mulroney's extravagant foreign travel rings hollow, as now Chretien
>: >is the unchallenged Babe Ruth of exotic traveling Canadian P.M.s.
>
>: The worst part of those descriptive short-comings is not the fact that
>: Chretein knew he couldn't deliver, but the fact that people accepted
>: his "confirmed" lies and voted him in the second time. Now, who is the
>: real fools in this picture?
>
>No you have it all wrong. The problems left by Mulroney have scared this
>Nation for a generation. If the Prime Minister is unable to introduce what
>he promised on the GST, its because we still are climbing out of a very
>deep hole created by criminals in the Conservative Party.
Bunk!! Chretein had been an MP and a past Minister of Finance. He knew
damned well that the NAFTA and GST were solid idea's given the
changing world. But he took advantage of the unpopularity of any tax
to lead a bunch of blind lemmings over a cliff. What would have
happened to the MST in todays world trading? Do you actually believe
Canada would still be competing?
>
>: >Chretien criticized Mulroney for the latter's coziness with the U.S., but the
>: >Americanization of Canada has gone into overdrive under Chretien. Right
>: >now our airlines and telecommunications industries are in danger of falling
>: >under American control. Canada is losing the bulk of its major league sports
>: >teams because of the debased C$ and exorbitant taxation.
>
>: The Martin/Chretein "dollar" policy is the largest factor in the
>: so-called "Americanization" of Canada. Let's face it, they can buy at
>: a bargain.
>
>Mulroney tied their hands. We will have a low dollar for another decade,
>when new businesses not being created start to come on line.
Really? When the Tories were defeated the dollar stood at about .83
cents. The economist and traders say that the dollar should still be
around .80 cents even in todays problematic commodity world. Even with
the huge jump in oil prices (now doubled) and gold rising almost
$17.00 an oz. the dollar is still lame and is up and down like a
whores drawers. And don't forget the $2.9B surplus had no affect on
it, and it was the second consecutive surplus. So what is your
analysis now?
>
>: > Our armed forces
>: >have become a joke with their under staffing and obsolete and worn out
>: >equipment. Morale with the RCMP is at an all time low, with their worn out
>: >equipment and cars running on bald tires. Highway infrastructure in Canada
>: >is a disgrace.
>
>This is plane wrong. The RCMP have just recoved their image from Mickey
>Mouse. That has to be good for morale.
>
>: >
>: >Further, Chretien's federal Liberals have turned a blind eye and deaf
>: >ear to the increasing homelessness in Canada's major cities, and medicare is inferior and
>: >badly under funded. Chretien's Liberals should know that Canadians are becoming
>: >restive especially when they see that their personal indebtedness is at a all time
>: >high and their personal savings and wealth are much lower than they were
>: >in 1989.
>
>: All true, but what does this have with the fact that Harris may run
>: for the UA? If he does, and Canadians stop to smell the roses and look
>: at what we have for a government, then and only then, would Mikey
>: become PM.
>
>I think Harris should run and lose his ass. There is a practical limit to
>the "smoke and mirrors" image that Conrad's money can buy.
>Joe Green
>
Frunk
Court Jester™/The Voltairian
{>: An ontario premier appeal to the west?
{>
{>: That's laughable.
{>
{>Ha. Ha. Ha. Harris get support in the West? As a Progressive Conservative?
{>Ha. Ha. Ha. And maybe Joe Who will hue the wood and carry the water for
{>Ontario. Ha. Ha. Ha.
{>
{>What have you been smoking? It makes you say really funny stuff.
{
{I think he meant that Harris would run as a Reformer/UA and not a PC.
You don't get either. He repeated what I said, he was just to slow to
catch the point, or maybe he just read two lines and responded.
No way the west will ever support an eastern leader, including Clark,
despite his Calgary homeland.
hifl...@ecn.ab.ca
: On 27 Sep 99 17:59:07 GMT, hifl...@ecn.ab.ca () wrote:
: >fr...@hotmail.com wrote:
: >: On 27 Sep 99 01:09:30 GMT, hifl...@ecn.ab.ca () wrote:
: >: So what is different from what we have?
: >
: >By my count of criminal convictions, its Progressive Conservative 18, NDP
: >1, Liberals 0. The record speaks for itself.
: Or the fact that the Liberals are masters are hiding it. Besides,
: would a Liberal appointed court convict one of their own?
A man is innocent until proven guilty. Been that way since at least
King Henry II. The winner in the "criminal category" is the Progressive
Conservative Party! (wild applause).
: >: <<snip>>
: >: >No doubt about it. The Conservatives are on the ropes, and hope to subvert
: >: >the Reform Party to stay in the game. But Canadians have had enough. What
: >: >we want is an "extinct" Progressive Conservative Party.
: >
: >: Would you like a one-party system? That appears to be your goal here.
: >
: >No. I would like the folks in Ontario and the Maritimes to turn toward
: >honest government that is free of graft and corruption, and help Preston
: >build the Reform Party in their neighbourhood, and make it their own. That
: >is what I hope for in Eastern Canada. We should bury the Progressive
: >Conservative Party as a historical relic representing the worst of the
: >Family Compact.
: I can share that thought. The problems is that people in the Maritimes
: are slow to re-act to a new policy or party. They are building the
: Reform party here and it appears to be becoming quite visible. Many of
: my friends have indicated they will vote Reform federally in the nect
: election.
Democracy needs more than one party capable of governing the country. But
the United Alternative is a merger with criminals. Preston must have
slipped and fell in the shower.
: >: <<snip>>
: >: >Perhaps most of this is true, but you should give credit where credit is
: >: >due. Brian Mulroney nearly destroyed Canada.
: >
: >: I am far from being a Mulroney fan, but this is absolutely false.
: >: Turner, Trudeau and Mulroney must share this distinction. I suggest
: >: you research some of the destruction before you apply it to any one
: >: person.
: >
: >In finance alone, this lunatic increased the public debt from 154 billion
: >(an accumulated debt since Confederation to 1984 when Mulroney took over)
: >to at least 470 billion.
: >
: >This debt will saddle a generation, and will spell the end of Canada as we
: >knew it.
: The debt is manageable with the right leadership. Problem is, it isn't
: there right now.
Marginally, perhaps. The current Liberal Government is at a minimum
capable of governing the country without the criminal activity. I have
modest expectations, and the mess after Mulroney would discourage even the
Junior Chamber of Commerce.
: >
: >: > It will take a miracle to
: >: >restore Canadian independence, but it could happen under Chretien.
: >: What in hell are you talking about, restore what "independence"? What
: >: do you propose?
: >
: >The FTA and NAFTA has so seriously compromised our Country's independence,
: >that today the Government does not even have the freedom of action to even
: >encourage Canadians to preferentially invest in their own Country!!!
: >Just wake up and smell the coffee. Kantor (US negotiator) said "in ten
: >years we will have them". I hope he's wrong, but I fear he's right.
: Canadians never have been investors like the US people are. We are
: also highly taxed and do not have the tax loop-holes enjoyed by the
: Americans. Free Trade has been good for Canada, but the low dollar,
: being sustained by the government is hiding the true picture.
Canada boasts the highest per capita population of inventors in the world
bar none. So there are no shortage of good ideas.
I disagree entirely on your point with the FTA and NAFTA. Our domestic
economy has been irraparably damaged by these Mulroney initiatives. Nor do
I support "globalization". I support "local free markets" that are
protected as necessary against international arms dealers, drug cartels,
and "investors" from foreign locations (such as Boston, for example, eager
to re-invest their profits from the opium trade in China.
: >
: >: The low Canadian dollar is the largest single factor
: >: today that is creating an Americanization of Canada. Not that it is
: >: totally bad, but it means they can pack up and go home anytime they
: >: want to leaving the economy high and dry. Remember that the dollar has
: >: dropped as much as .20 cents (at times) under the Chretein government.
: >
: >: > As for
: >: >right wingers, they have a perfect right of centre alternative in Mr.
: >: >Manning's Reform Party. However, what is no longer on the table is a
: >: >perverted and dishonest Conservative Party. If the right wing wants to
: >: >govern, they are going to have to do it lawfully. Mr. Manning offers them
: >: >an honest way to achieve that goal.
: >
: >: You're displaying your lack of knowledge of the political life of
: >: Canada. The reason that the PC party faltered was due to it's
: >: "liberal" policies.
: >
: >The Mulroney Progressive Conservative Government was driven from office
: >because of graft and corruption and is reflected in Saskachewan and
: >Manitoba, where the Party has collapsed. I say good riddance.
: Your confusing Provincial and Federal politics. Saskatchewan PC
: (Devine) crooks had nothing to do with the Mulroney government.
It was run from Ottawa. What the hell do you think the Senator/Jailbirds
from Saskachewan and Quebec Conservative Party were doing? Kissing babies?
: >
: >: There hasn't been a "blue" Tory for many moons in
: >: this country. There is so little difference between the policies of
: >: the PC's and Liberals that you have to check "the curlies" to see if
: >: there is a difference.
: >: <<snip>>
: >
: >Not as I see it. I actually see no difference between Progressive
: >Conservatives and Ukraine's communists, when it comes to political
: >tactics. The only difference, is that in Canada the Conservatives wear
: >blue tee shirts, and in Ukraine the communists wear red tee shirts.
: Maybe their Liberals. ;-)
Can't be. Liberals are survivors.
: >: >Most Canadians are grown up enough to understand that all our troubles
: >: >began with Brian Mulroney and his efforts to apply extreme right wing
: >: >republican political policies to our situation in Canada.
: >
: >: Like what? You cannot include free trade and the GST in these
: >: arguments. And don't forget, the Liberals have not only accepted these
: >: programs, but have expanded free trade. So, "can you tell the
: >: difference?".
: >
: >The GST thing is not finished. But the hole Mulroney dug under Canada is
: >so deep that this most hated tax in Canadian history cannot be removed
: >without endangering the Country. I understand it. But I still hate it.
: You mean to tell me that you would prefer the (hidden)MST to the GST?
I favor a total overhaul of the tax system. I favor the total and complete
elimination of "income tax". I favor the total and complete elimination of
"corporate taxes" on profits. What I favor is a simple fixed percentage
tax on corporate spending, electronically deducted at the banks as these
corporate cheques clear the system, and forwarded to the Receiver for
distribution to the Federal, Provincial and Municipal Governments in
Canada, without loopholes or exceptions. The percentage fee should be
fixed and approved by Parliament. No Legislature or Municipal Council
should have any other method to prey on corporations or individuals, apart
from this one source of taxation.
A before all the bureaucrats start moaning how "difficult" or "impossible"
the suggested change would be, they should study the benefits of the
proposal for everyone in our Country, individuals, corporations, local,
provincial and federal governments. Everyone.
: > : >: >It failed, and
: >: >there is now a heavy price to pay, from our financial well being and
: >: >independence under FTA and NAFTA, to the near total destruction of the
: >: >Canadian social safety net.
: >
: >: Prove it!! It shut the hell up!! You have no idea of what you are
: >: talking about.
: >
: >Nice move Exlax!!!
: >
: >It will take a book to document the harm and damage done to Canada by
: >Conservatives, the FTA and NAFTA.
: I don't need a book. Give me five examples what FTA and NAFTA has done
: that is so bad?
1. They have destroyed two national railways, and made both foreign owed
infrastructures.
2. Bell Canada's destruction
3. Telus destroyed AGT and Edmonton Telephones merged with BC Tel. All
this core infrastructure now or shortly will be foreign owned and
controlled. Layoffs in the tens of thousands.
4. Air Canada as a Canadian Controlled entity - gone. Canadian swallowed
up Canadian Pacific, Pacific Western and Wardair. Canadian in turn
swallowed up by American Airlines. With the "merger" between Air Canada
and Canadian, "two for the price of one" will go to American Airlines, and
again a large round of layoffs, and reduced services.
5. Canadair and the Challenger, development at taxpayers expense and a 6
billion writedown, gone to Kansas. Same old story. Lost jobs, great
products. Mulroney's dug a debt hole so deep that no government could
buffer or limit the damage to the Canadian economy.
There are five undesirable and related effects on Canadians.
1. Higher freight rates
2. Lack of Canadian based securities of the quality once offered by Bell.
3. Sharply higher telephone rates in the West, particularly for local
services.
4. The second largest country on earth without at least one airline
serving its territory with foreign management. The "Board of Directors"
however will remain a "Board of Dummies" comprising of lawyers acting for
foreign investors equipped with "client solicitor" privilege to surppress
information on the Company.
5. Basic loss of job opportunities in the aerospace industry in Montreal
and Toronto. Its hard to believe this country at one time used to
engineer, design and build its own required aircraft, from the CF100, the
Sabre, Argus, etc, etc, etc, even the Otter and the Beaver.
The FTA and NAFTA has sealled the fate of anyone ever again building a
Canadian aircraft or a Canadian telephone. Its gone, and its Brian
Mulroney that destroyed it.
: >The damage is not on this side of the
: >border alone. Many American communities have also been harmed, some
: >critically.
: Name five!
You could find at least a dozen around Philedelphia alone, fallen victim
to the Lowen Group. Then there is Sam Belzburgs crowd throughout the Rust
Belt that has made a bad situation worse. Look in the packing houses in
Minesota and Manitoba racing to the bottom of the wage scale. But food
prices have actually increased as longer shipping distances have
increased. No surprise there. I could go on and talk about Canadian
communities like Taber, for example, which used to manufacture high tech
equipment, but now is left of a meat packing plant that offers near
minimum wages operated by immigrants imported for cheap labor, while the
general population increasing relies on Food Banks to overcome shortfalls
in the family budget created by minimal wages, and lost opportunities.
And this hasn't even started to count the problems yet to be encountered
in the corridor between Canada and Mexico that will pave over 20 lanes or
more of highway over prime American lands to facilitate "crony
capitalists" maximizing their profits on a foundation of minimum wages,
long distance transportation, and lack of variety and quality in goods and
services.
: > I do not expect Conrad Black would allow such explosive stuff
: >to be published in his papers. But open your eyes, look around, and
: >integrate all that you see.
: I do not rely on the media for my facts. Go to the source!!
Brian Mulrony and John Crossbie are not reliable sources.
: >: If this is the case, why hasn't the mighty Liberals
: >: called of NAFTA? Know why, because they are a bunch of lying s.o.b.'s
: >: just like the Tories. So back to checking "curlies" with you.
You should go and see for yourself just how deep the fiscal hole is that
Mulroney dug under our Country. Its a miracle we have not lost our
independance already, and it is not at all clear we will maintain it.
: >
: >The Chretien Liberals have their hands tied by the Mulroney legacy. Its a
: >miracle that Canada still exercises a small degree of independence. We
: >came within a whisker of becoming a Puerto Rico, and we still might fall
: >in. Wake up and smell the coffee.
: You're so full of shit that your eye's are brown. The US wants no part
: of Canada.
That crap and you know it. Taking over Canada, would instantly solve the
water shortage in Nevada, California, Arizona and New Mexico where there
are water shortages and rationing. Wake up and smell the coffee.
: Why would they take on a "State" with socialized medicine,
: high taxes, high debt, Quebec's problems, our flimsey welfare policy,
: EI policy, 8% (on average) unemployed, a depleted armed forces, and
: the list goes on and on. Would you invest in a company with those
: problems? I don't think so.
The American Army and Marines would end all Canadian institutions as we
know it, if it did not serve their Nation's purpose. Americans are not
stupid. Its the resources they require, not opposition from Canadians.
Quebec's problems with language would disappear as quickly as the Acadians
that have melted into the Louisiana landscape. They no longer even speak
French. Just Cajin.
: >
: >: >The reality for Canadians is that Conservatives do not know how to manage
: >: >technology and change. They could not do it under MacDonald with the
: >: >CPR railway, they could not do it with Diefenbaker and the Avro Arrow, and
: >: >they could not do it with Mulroney and the Internet.
: >
: >: What utter nonsense! You must be way past your bedtime little man.
Live with it. John A. MacDonald was a drunk. His wife was a drug addict
using opium that the Conservative friends in Boston (doing a great
business in China) provided. These American "enterpreneurs" regarded drug
dealing as their "right" in China. And this American and British drug
policy for China, was backed up by military gun boats. Don't you read?
John Diefenbaker destroyed Canada's aerospace industry. At the time,
Canada built most of its own civil and military aircraft. Avro built the
first ever jet airliner. Canada built the Otter and the Beaver bush planes
at DeHaviland. But John was a Conservative tea toatler from Saskachewan, a
small time prairie lawyer with no understanding as to how 20,000 Canadians
earned their living. John Diefenbaker was no C.D. Howe. If the
Conservatives had been in Government during the second world war, our air
force would have still been flying Tiger Moths, and the navy would never
have built the Corvette in the hundreds.
And then there is the granddaddy of all Conservative Nation Killers, Brian
Mulroney. His scale of operation dwarfed even MacDonald and Diefenbaker.
Brian could destroy cod fisheries in a single strok of his pen.
With a single role of the dice, he could and did split Canada from Quebec.
With FTA and NAFTA he obliterated an even playing field for entire unborn
generations of Canadians.
And with the GST, he reinvented the unequal, unelected and ineffective
Canadian Senate. Yes he was a magnificent Nation Killer.
: >
: >Go ahead and try to generate any propaganda you wish. The truth is cast in
: >stone in the history books of this Nation. Do you think I just made it up
: >about John A. MacDonald, or Mr. Diefenbaker? In Diefenbaker's case, the
: >Conservatives were not satisfied with just destroying the Arrow Program.
: >No, they resorted to vandalism and left finished aircraft cut up in pieces
: >on the runways of Toronto's airport. All bought and paid for by Canadian
: >taxpayers. Read it! Its a historic FACT in our Canadian history, complete
: >with live television footage! Open your eyes! Read!
: Anything you read is open to your own interpretation. Being a closer
: to the Arrow project then you could have possibly been, I'll tell you
: again that you don not know what you are talking about. It is a
: political football that cannot last the game when the facts are known.
: BTW, can you tell me who had placed orders for an Arrow? Or who was
: remotely interested in it's high price tag?
The Avro Arrow was designed under the Liberal Government of Mr. St.
Larent to replace the aging CF100. The price tag, even with the navigation
system that Avro advocated, was a small fraction of what subsequent
Governments paid to American Aircraft manufacturers. for obsolete Bomarc
"missiles", CF104s, C5 Talons, etc, etc, etc.
: >
: >: >At least Reform's Manning understands technology and change, and at least
: >: >Mr. Manning at one time worked for a living. Who can say the same for Joe
: >: >Who?
: >
: >: I will agree with that. As stated by Manning "you can't jump start a
: >: 747 with a flashlight battery". Given that I guess it would better
: >: qualify him as a technologist.
: >
: >He did his degree in Physics at the University of Alberta. In contast, Joe
: >never finished Law. I call that a quitter.
: He finished, but didn't pass the Bar examination. That's why he cannot
: fight Maureen in the courts, as she has passed the "Bar".
I live in Edmonton, where he attended and dropped out of school. Would you
like to know the name of his professor?
: >
: Frunk
Joe Green
hifl...@ecn.ab.ca
: {>: An ontario premier appeal to the west?
: {>
: {>: That's laughable.
: {>
: {>Ha. Ha. Ha. Harris get support in the West? As a Progressive Conservative?
: {>Ha. Ha. Ha. And maybe Joe Who will hue the wood and carry the water for
: {>Ontario. Ha. Ha. Ha.
: {>
: {>What have you been smoking? It makes you say really funny stuff.
: {
: {I think he meant that Harris would run as a Reformer/UA and not a PC.
: You don't get either. He repeated what I said, he was just to slow to
: catch the point, or maybe he just read two lines and responded.
There is no such thing as a Conservative suddenly getting "morality". Its
a little bit like a communist suddenly developing a guilty conscience for
killing.
: No way the west will ever support an eastern leader, including
Clark, : despite his Calgary homeland.
Having the West support a Conservative, is a little like asking a
Ukrainian after the Great Famine to support a communist. Its sick.
Joe Green
hifl...@ecn.ab.ca
: On 27 Sep 99 17:28:52 GMT, hifl...@ecn.ab.ca () wrote:
: >fr...@hotmail.com wrote:
: >: On Sun, 26 Sep 1999 15:45:09 GMT, Ciceroii <cice...@home.com> wrote:
: >: Not true. The Atlantic Provinces would support Harris. Joe Clark is
: >: not well-liked in this part of the country. People in NB and NS voted
: >: Tory last time to send a message to the Liberals. It has also resulted
: >: in three Tory governments here.
: >
: >Maritimers might support any Tory that could bring home a little "payola".
: >But when will the Maritimers come to accept that they live in a rich part
: >of Canada, that can provide a good living for everyone, if they would just
: >stop giving everything away to Irving and Family?
: I'm far from being an Irving fan, but they have been good for the
: Maritimes. At least they stay and have never taken the financial aid
: and run like companies from Ontario (Dynatek to name one).
Sorry, but no cigar. K.C. Irving left and became a citizen of Burmuda, and
insisted that his children do likewise, or lose their inheritance. Only an
asshole would do that to his children.
: >
: >: >Christina Blizzard points out that the announcement by key Tory
: >: >strategist and Harris confidant, Tom Long, that he was going to
: >: >work for the United Alternative was significant. "As part of Harris'
: >: >inner circle he would have some idea of the premier's thinking on the U.A.
: >
: >: Harris has always maintained a close liaison with Manning as their
: >: thoughts on "fiscal conservatism" appears very similar. Harris
: >: projects well, and proved that in his first win in Ontario.
: >
: >That is about all they agree on. Manning is a "social conservative" and a
: >strong Christian churchman. Manning is like his Dad. He will not tollerate
: >any corruption, even a little. That is really bad news for Ontario
: >Conservatives, who are as addicted to graft and corruption as kittens are
: >to catnip.
: Do you really believe that? I have more faith in humanity then that.
Yes I really do believe what I write. His dad canned a Minister who have
is hand in the cookie jar. And it was a rather small cookie.
: >
: >: >There is, of course, Harris' commitment to the people of Ontario after
: >: >his recent majority election victory to serve out his term. But Harris feels
: >: >hamstrung in Ontario as he sees, like Lucien Bouchard, that the Canadian federation
: >: >is not working and is going from bad to worse. Most thinking Canadians world
: >: >agree. Harris feels relatively helpless even as premier of Canada's greatest
: >: >province, and believes that the only solution to cleaning up the mess in Ottawa
: >: >is to get rid of the Chretien Liberals.
: >: >
: >: >Ms. Blizzard points out, that whether or not you agree with Harris, you must
: >: >allow that unlike Chretien he is a man of his word. And voters may be so delighted
: >: >to have some credible alternative to Chretien and his Liberals that they would almost
: >: >forgive Harris anything.
: >
: >: What's to forgive? His policies have succeeded this far. The only
: >: people whining are the lazy and those who are unsure of thier own
: >: abilities (the teachers). Other then that, Ontario is once more the
: >: "core" of the apple.
: >
: >Ontario's dramatic recovery from the Mulroney years have much, much less
: >to do with Mike Harris, then it has to do with the Federal Government and
: >favorable policies toward Ontario, and some of the early work that Bob Rae
: >began as Premier. Harris is like Klein. Neither know much about governing.
: What qualifies you to come up with that analysis? Harris told the
: electorate (the first time) what he intended to do. He did as promised
: and it got him elected again.
Harris got elected because large amounts of money was used to advertise
the weakness of his opponents. Crony Capitalism. Conrad Black is the dean
in Toronto, and his thrice divorced wife, Barbara Amiel is the secretary.
I agree that Ontario has benefited from
: the American prosperity, but it still requires good management to
: secure the confidence of investors.
Just which "investors" are you talking about. "Electors" are not
"investors", much as Tories would like otherwise.
: >
: >: >Canadians remember, she points out, that Chretien promised to spend $500 million
: >: >canceling a helicopter deal and $60 million to cancel Pearson expansion, only
: >: >to discover later on that we have no search and rescue capacity and Pearson
: >: >airport is gridlocked. He promised to cancel the Free Trade Agreement,
: >: >NAFTA, the GST and lower taxes. Instead, he discovered we really need
: >: >free trade and he doubled CPP premiums. He promised an end to Mulroney-
: >: >like patronage, but his government has become the worst in Canada's history
: >: >for patronage and crony capitalism Chretien's personal credibility and integrity
: >: >has been tarnished by the Shawinigan and Saint Maurice Quebec scandals. His
: >: >criticism of Mulroney's extravagant foreign travel rings hollow, as now Chretien
: >: >is the unchallenged Babe Ruth of exotic traveling Canadian P.M.s.
: >
: >: The worst part of those descriptive short-comings is not the fact that
: >: Chretein knew he couldn't deliver, but the fact that people accepted
: >: his "confirmed" lies and voted him in the second time. Now, who is the
: >: real fools in this picture?
: >
: >No you have it all wrong. The problems left by Mulroney have scared this
: >Nation for a generation. If the Prime Minister is unable to introduce what
: >he promised on the GST, its because we still are climbing out of a very
: >deep hole created by criminals in the Conservative Party.
: Bunk!! Chretein had been an MP and a past Minister of Finance. He knew
: damned well that the NAFTA and GST were solid idea's given the
: changing world. But he took advantage of the unpopularity of any tax
: to lead a bunch of blind lemmings over a cliff. What would have
: happened to the MST in todays world trading? Do you actually believe
: Canada would still be competing?
I completely reject your world view of "global" "free trade". So would
Marshall McLuhan, who understood better than most the coming "electric
age" if television, media and computers and the powerful decentralizing
role such technology plays in society.
Just look around and count how many companies are manufacturing
semiconductor CPUs in Canada? How many memory chips? Hell, we can't even
build the boxes to house the stuff anymore. Well at one time MIL, Northern
Telecom and others did all these things in Canada. I know, because I
bought parts from them.
The rest, I have dealt with.
<snip>
Joe Green
hifl...@ecn.ab.ca
: On 27 Sep 99 17:17:02 GMT, hifl...@ecn.ab.ca () wrote:
: >Court Jester™/The Voltairian (form@*.mysite.van.bc.ca) wrote:
: >: On Sun, 26 Sep 1999 15:45:09 GMT, Ciceroii <cice...@home.com> wrote:
: >
: >: {In a Sunday Sun column titled "Harris has the strength to
: >: {unite the right'' conservative Christina Blizzard maintains that
: >: {this is a strong possibility. She claims that Mike Harris, unlike Preston
: >: {Manning, would appeal to the right-wing in both the West and
: >: {Ontario. And that Harris would even have the strong support of Lucien
: >: {Bouchard in Quebec, who although not a small-c conservative detests
: >: {Jean Chretien's Liberals. So the political wisdom is that Harris could
: >: {even make a strong showing in Quebec, although Atlantic Canada would
: >: {be a right-off.
: >
: >: [snip]
: >
: >: An ontario premier appeal to the west?
: >
: >: That's laughable.
: >
: >Ha. Ha. Ha. Harris get support in the West? As a Progressive Conservative?
: >Ha. Ha. Ha. And maybe Joe Who will hue the wood and carry the water for
: >Ontario. Ha. Ha. Ha.
: >
: >What have you been smoking? It makes you say really funny stuff.
: I think he meant that Harris would run as a Reformer/UA and not a PC.
Ha. Ha. Ha. Harris run as a Reformer? And leave his criminal friends
behind in the PC Party? No more cosy dinners with Conrad and Barbara? A
man committed to reform the Political Landscape by introducing competition
into the newspaper business? Ha. Ha. Ha.
Your too much!
:
> : >: Quetario, in itself, I think has completely seperated from the west
: >: unofficialy. Ignoring our problems and taking our money at the same
: >: time.
: >
: >And don't forget "no respect". Actually if the West supported the
: >Progressive Conservatives under Mike Harris (aka Conrad Black) we would
: >deserve no respect for being that dumb.
: >
: >: BC should seperate and establish a seperate system temporarily, and
: >: then decide things such as statehood and provincialhood.
: >
: >There is a cure for separtism (in Quebec as well as BC). It is called
: >common sense. What is needed is a first Ministers Conference in
: >Tuktoyuktuk in December in an unheated igloo.
: >
: >: Seperation of powers is a nessasry thing which will never happen with
: >: 2 provinces having all the power.
: >
: >Quebec and Ontario elites want it all their own way. Always have. Always
: >will. The question is do they want a country bad enough to work for it.
: >Hard question.
Actually, we should consider shipping off the Progressive Conservative
criminals to St. Pierre, if France off the Newfoundland coast. They can
share in the "abundant cod fishery" John Crossbie insists is there.
: >
: >: Gölök Zoltán Leenderdt Franco Buday
: >: Free-Lance Writer; Humourist; Mental Patient
: >: Vancouver, BC
: >
: >: The My Ego Times: http://MyEgoTimes.virtualave.net/
: >: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: >: Veritas: "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death
: >: your right to say it" - Voltaire.
: >: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: >
: >Joe Green
: >
Joe Green
fr...@hotmail.com
>fr...@hotmail.com wrote:
>: On 27 Sep 99 17:59:07 GMT, hifl...@ecn.ab.ca () wrote:
>: >By my count of criminal convictions, its Progressive Conservative 18, NDP
>: >1, Liberals 0. The record speaks for itself.
>
>: Or the fact that the Liberals are masters are hiding it. Besides,
>: would a Liberal appointed court convict one of their own?
>
>A man is innocent until proven guilty.
Only in politics it seems. For the rest of the world that is a
doubtful.
> Been that way since at least
>King Henry II. The winner in the "criminal category" is the Progressive
>Conservative Party! (wild applause).
I can't argue that point as your research appears valid. But then
again I think that the Liberals are better at weaselling out of
things.
>: >: <<snip>>
>: >: >No doubt about it. The Conservatives are on the ropes, and hope to subvert
>: >: >the Reform Party to stay in the game. But Canadians have had enough. What
>: >: >we want is an "extinct" Progressive Conservative Party.
>: >
>: >: Would you like a one-party system? That appears to be your goal here.
>: >
>: >No. I would like the folks in Ontario and the Maritimes to turn toward
>: >honest government that is free of graft and corruption, and help Preston
>: >build the Reform Party in their neighbourhood, and make it their own. That
>: >is what I hope for in Eastern Canada. We should bury the Progressive
>: >Conservative Party as a historical relic representing the worst of the
>: >Family Compact.
>
>: I can share that thought. The problems is that people in the Maritimes
>: are slow to re-act to a new policy or party. They are building the
>: Reform party here and it appears to be becoming quite visible. Many of
>: my friends have indicated they will vote Reform federally in the nect
>: election.
>
>Democracy needs more than one party capable of governing the country. But
>the United Alternative is a merger with criminals.
You may be right here. I have not paid much attention to the UA, and
keep hoping that it will not deter the Reform goal. There are a lot of
people out there that could make the Reform even better, as long as
they guard against the other elements (like crooked Tories, etc).
>Preston must have
>slipped and fell in the shower.
Or it could be a matter of personal greed.
>: >: <<snip>>
>: >: >Perhaps most of this is true, but you should give credit where credit is
>: >: >due. Brian Mulroney nearly destroyed Canada.
>: >
>: >: I am far from being a Mulroney fan, but this is absolutely false.
>: >: Turner, Trudeau and Mulroney must share this distinction. I suggest
>: >: you research some of the destruction before you apply it to any one
>: >: person.
>: >
>: >In finance alone, this lunatic increased the public debt from 154 billion
>: >(an accumulated debt since Confederation to 1984 when Mulroney took over)
>: >to at least 470 billion.
>: >
>: >This debt will saddle a generation, and will spell the end of Canada as we
>: >knew it.
>
>: The debt is manageable with the right leadership. Problem is, it isn't
>: there right now.
>
>Marginally, perhaps. The current Liberal Government is at a minimum
>capable of governing the country without the criminal activity. I have
>modest expectations, and the mess after Mulroney would discourage even the
>Junior Chamber of Commerce.
Actually, if the truth be known, Martin (being a disguised fiscal
conservative) could straighten the whole mess out, if it were not for
Chretein.
>: >: > It will take a miracle to
>: >: >restore Canadian independence, but it could happen under Chretien.
>: >: What in hell are you talking about, restore what "independence"? What
>: >: do you propose?
>: >
>: >The FTA and NAFTA has so seriously compromised our Country's independence,
>: >that today the Government does not even have the freedom of action to even
>: >encourage Canadians to preferentially invest in their own Country!!!
>: >Just wake up and smell the coffee. Kantor (US negotiator) said "in ten
>: >years we will have them". I hope he's wrong, but I fear he's right.
>
>: Canadians never have been investors like the US people are. We are
>: also highly taxed and do not have the tax loop-holes enjoyed by the
>: Americans. Free Trade has been good for Canada, but the low dollar,
>: being sustained by the government is hiding the true picture.
>
>Canada boasts the highest per capita population of inventors in the world
>bar none. So there are no shortage of good ideas.
"Inventors" yes. Investors no.
>I disagree entirely on your point with the FTA and NAFTA. Our domestic
>economy has been irraparably damaged by these Mulroney initiatives.
Where? People keep saying that FTA and NAFTA has been detrimental to
our (Canada's) good health, but never offer any solid facts. These
initiatives have prompted Canadians to being better traders and has
increased entrepenural numbers immensely, as it allows the _small_
business to compete with the bigger ones. Tarriff and duty walls
hindered the small guy until things were opened with FTA/NAFTA. Even
the blind Liberals recognized that after they were elected.
> Nor do
>I support "globalization". I support "local free markets" that are
>protected as necessary against international arms dealers, drug cartels,
>and "investors" from foreign locations (such as Boston, for example, eager
>to re-invest their profits from the opium trade in China.
"Local free markets" are an internal matter that our two levels of
government do not seem to want to deal with. Only by organizing small
business can they put enough pressure on the gov't to make any
headway. As productions keeps getting more effecient (provided by the
very instrument we are using here), we must expand our market place in
order to sell. If we stick to "local markets" they soon become
saturated and cease to exist. Then what?
<<snip>>
>: >The Mulroney Progressive Conservative Government was driven from office
>: >because of graft and corruption and is reflected in Saskachewan and
>: >Manitoba, where the Party has collapsed. I say good riddance.
>: Your confusing Provincial and Federal politics. Saskatchewan PC
>: (Devine) crooks had nothing to do with the Mulroney government.
>It was run from Ottawa. What the hell do you think the Senator/Jailbirds
>from Saskachewan and Quebec Conservative Party were doing? Kissing babies?
I hardly think that policy in Sask/Man was being directed from Ottawa.
The "PC Crooks" were convicted of padded expense acounts, which are a
Provincial responsibility. Devine was the Premier at that time.
<<snip>>
>: >Not as I see it. I actually see no difference between Progressive
>: >Conservatives and Ukraine's communists, when it comes to political
>: >tactics. The only difference, is that in Canada the Conservatives wear
>: >blue tee shirts, and in Ukraine the communists wear red tee shirts.
>
>: Maybe their Liberals. ;-)
>Can't be. Liberals are survivors.
Liberals are "masters of deceit".
>: >: >Most Canadians are grown up enough to understand that all our troubles
>: >: >began with Brian Mulroney and his efforts to apply extreme right wing
>: >: >republican political policies to our situation in Canada.
>: >
>: >: Like what? You cannot include free trade and the GST in these
>: >: arguments. And don't forget, the Liberals have not only accepted these
>: >: programs, but have expanded free trade. So, "can you tell the
>: >: difference?".
>: >
>: >The GST thing is not finished. But the hole Mulroney dug under Canada is
>: >so deep that this most hated tax in Canadian history cannot be removed
>: >without endangering the Country. I understand it. But I still hate it.
>
>: You mean to tell me that you would prefer the (hidden)MST to the GST?
>I favor a total overhaul of the tax system. I favor the total and complete
>elimination of "income tax".
Don't we all. But it can't happen.
>I favor the total and complete elimination of
>"corporate taxes" on profits. What I favor is a simple fixed percentage
>tax on corporate spending, electronically deducted at the banks as these
>corporate cheques clear the system, and forwarded to the Receiver for
>distribution to the Federal, Provincial and Municipal Governments in
>Canada, without loopholes or exceptions.
And if I arrive to buy with a "bag of cash" what then? No
accountibility anywhere, just like the current underground economy.
Ever hear of "fudging books", most accountants can perform that little
task very easily.
>The percentage fee should be
>fixed and approved by Parliament. No Legislature or Municipal Council
>should have any other method to prey on corporations or individuals, apart
>from this one source of taxation.
So what if the "Corporation" is located in Ontario and the buyer is
from Quebec what would happen there? Corporate rich Ontario would have
the best of everthing due to the size of it's bite. And what if Ottawa
decided to share the wealth? Do you think Ontario would accept the
fact that their Corporate dollars was going to PEI?
>
>A before all the bureaucrats start moaning how "difficult" or "impossible"
>the suggested change would be, they should study the benefits of the
>proposal for everyone in our Country, individuals, corporations, local,
>provincial and federal governments. Everyone.
I can see no benefit to anyone here. You're talking the true face of
Communism. A centralized, fully controlling "big head".
>: > : >: >It failed, and
>: >: >there is now a heavy price to pay, from our financial well being and
>: >: >independence under FTA and NAFTA, to the near total destruction of the
>: >: >Canadian social safety net.
>: >
>: >: Prove it!! It shut the hell up!! You have no idea of what you are
>: >: talking about.
>: >
>: >Nice move Exlax!!!
>: >
>: >It will take a book to document the harm and damage done to Canada by
>: >Conservatives, the FTA and NAFTA.
>
>: I don't need a book. Give me five examples what FTA and NAFTA has done
>: that is so bad?
>1. They have destroyed two national railways, and made both foreign owed
>infrastructures.
Bull. The RR was dead long before 1988. The trucking industry was
taking over and was seen as a cheaper shipping device using
containers.
>2. Bell Canada's destruction
In what way? They appear pretty prosperous to me, even now being minus
$59M in equalization. If you're talking down-sizing, that was created
by the IT industry, not free trade.
>3. Telus destroyed AGT and Edmonton Telephones merged with BC Tel. All
>this core infrastructure now or shortly will be foreign owned and
>controlled. Layoffs in the tens of thousands.
Again, amalgamation was brought on by IT. They are not "currently"
foreign owned and free trade has been around for ten years. Do you
think that things remain unchanged forever?
>4. Air Canada as a Canadian Controlled entity - gone.
Oh? who controls it? Are you not aware of the 25% rule?
> Canadian swallowed
>up Canadian Pacific, Pacific Western and Wardair.
You're talking the merging of regional airlines, all Canadian made,
nothing to do with free trade.
> Canadian in turn
>swallowed up by American Airlines.
AA owns 25% (whichn is max) in CanadianAir. CanadianAir would have
ceased to exist had AA not invested. Besides it allowed CA better
routes in the US and added to a better take for CA. CA is just a tiny
bit of AA, like a fly on an elephant.
>With the "merger" between Air Canada
>and Canadian, "two for the price of one" will go to American Airlines, and
>again a large round of layoffs, and reduced services.
First off, this is still all up in the air. Onex is the buyer, who is
not American, but a Liberal supporter. AA will still only have 25% of
that portion previously owned by CA. You're not a very good "marketer"
are you. Again, free trade has nothing to do with this.
>5. Canadair and the Challenger, development at taxpayers expense and a 6
>billion writedown, gone to Kansas. Same old story. Lost jobs, great
>products. Mulroney's dug a debt hole so deep that no government could
>buffer or limit the damage to the Canadian economy.
This again had nothing to do with free trade, but technology and the
fact that Canadair was suffering from lack of sales. The Challenger is
no longer a viable jet. See Bombardier, Dick!!
>There are five undesirable and related effects on Canadians.
>1. Higher freight rates
These are due to normal inflation and would have affected the RR as
well. You're forgetting the ineffeciency of the CPR/CNR.
>2. Lack of Canadian based securities of the quality once offered by Bell.
Bell is not a security and has always been invested into heavily by
Americans. See Bell Atlantic, Bell ExpressVu.
>3. Sharply higher telephone rates in the West, particularly for local
>services.
This was approved by the CRTC (government) and has nothing to do with
free trade, but has a lot to do with overhead costs (according to
them).
>4. The second largest country on earth without at least one airline
>serving its territory with foreign management. The "Board of Directors"
>however will remain a "Board of Dummies" comprising of lawyers acting for
>foreign investors equipped with "client solicitor" privilege to surppress
>information on the Company.
Where do you live? You're babbling here.
>5. Basic loss of job opportunities in the aerospace industry in Montreal
>and Toronto. Its hard to believe this country at one time used to
>engineer, design and build its own required aircraft, from the CF100, the
>Sabre, Argus, etc, etc, etc, even the Otter and the Beaver.
Don't look now, but we are in a period of tranquility. Who needs all
this fighting gear. In 1984, the Armed Forces were 100,000 strong,
today they are a meer 58,000. Why would we be building fighter jets.
See Bombardier, they have just announced they are going into larger
jet building, and just keep expanding. Again, free trade had nothing
to do with this industry.
>The FTA and NAFTA has sealled the fate of anyone ever again building a
>Canadian aircraft
So what is Bombardier doing?
>or a Canadian telephone.
The telephone has already been invented. They have been "built" in
Japan, Tawain and Korea for about 25 years. (Prior to FT).
>Its gone, and its Brian
>Mulroney that destroyed it.
Yep, whatever you think. I don't like the man either, but you're
beating the wrong horse.
>: >The damage is not on this side of the
>: >border alone. Many American communities have also been harmed, some
>: >critically.
>: Name five!
>
>You could find at least a dozen around Philedelphia alone, fallen victim
>to the Lowen Group. Then there is Sam Belzburgs crowd throughout the Rust
>Belt that has made a bad situation worse. Look in the packing houses in
>Minesota and Manitoba racing to the bottom of the wage scale. But food
>prices have actually increased as longer shipping distances have
>increased. No surprise there. I could go on and talk about Canadian
>communities like Taber, for example, which used to manufacture high tech
>equipment, but now is left of a meat packing plant that offers near
>minimum wages operated by immigrants imported for cheap labor, while the
>general population increasing relies on Food Banks to overcome shortfalls
>in the family budget created by minimal wages, and lost opportunities.
>And this hasn't even started to count the problems yet to be encountered
>in the corridor between Canada and Mexico that will pave over 20 lanes or
>more of highway over prime American lands to facilitate "crony
>capitalists" maximizing their profits on a foundation of minimum wages,
>long distance transportation, and lack of variety and quality in goods and
>services.
So if our "loss" was to the US under FT, and the US "loss" was to
Canada under FT, just what is you're beef. Appears to me FT allowed
the dust to settle in the best places.
>: > I do not expect Conrad Black would allow such explosive stuff
>: >to be published in his papers. But open your eyes, look around, and
>: >integrate all that you see.
>
>: I do not rely on the media for my facts. Go to the source!!
>Brian Mulrony and John Crossbie are not reliable sources.
No one said they were. But the proof is in the pudding, fella.
>: >: If this is the case, why hasn't the mighty Liberals
>: >: called of NAFTA? Know why, because they are a bunch of lying s.o.b.'s
>: >: just like the Tories. So back to checking "curlies" with you.
>
>You should go and see for yourself just how deep the fiscal hole is that
>Mulroney dug under our Country. Its a miracle we have not lost our
>independance already, and it is not at all clear we will maintain it.
Everyone is aware of the "fiscal" hole. However, this responsibility
can be put to the door of many. To name a few, the debt must be shared
equally by the Liberals and Tories, the greed of the people in this
country (I want it now), the size of this country and it's low
population is a factor, and the big one, the very trade emcumbrances
we put on ourselves prior to FT (like the FST). I suggest you spend
some times in the www.gc.ca site and look at some of the statistical
data there both prior to and subsequent to FT.
>: >The Chretien Liberals have their hands tied by the Mulroney legacy. Its a
>: >miracle that Canada still exercises a small degree of independence. We
>: >came within a whisker of becoming a Puerto Rico, and we still might fall
>: >in. Wake up and smell the coffee.
>
>: You're so full of shit that your eye's are brown. The US wants no part
>: of Canada.
>
>That crap and you know it. Taking over Canada, would instantly solve the
>water shortage in Nevada, California, Arizona and New Mexico where there
>are water shortages and rationing. Wake up and smell the coffee.
Don't travel much do you? I spend a lot of time in the US. I have done
business there. Are you aware of the Great Lakes agreement? Have you
heard of the American Desalination plan? Have you ever looked at the
Middle East and their previous water problems? You're living in the
dark ages I'm afraid.
>: Why would they take on a "State" with socialized medicine,
>: high taxes, high debt, Quebec's problems, our flimsey welfare policy,
>: EI policy, 8% (on average) unemployed, a depleted armed forces, and
>: the list goes on and on. Would you invest in a company with those
>: problems? I don't think so.
>
>The American Army and Marines would end all Canadian institutions as we
>know it, if it did not serve their Nation's purpose.
You are either very young, very naive or very sheltered. Maybe all
three. Time to explore the real world.
>Americans are not
>stupid. Its the resources they require, not opposition from Canadians.
Did you know that the "strategic oil supply" of the US is greater then
Canada's? They don't need us for cat's sake!!
>Quebec's problems with language would disappear as quickly as the Acadians
>that have melted into the Louisiana landscape. They no longer even speak
>French. Just Cajin.
That's "Cajun" which derived from the word Acadian. Louisiana still
speaks a lot of French. Ever been there?
>: >: >The reality for Canadians is that Conservatives do not know how to manage
>: >: >technology and change. They could not do it under MacDonald with the
>: >: >CPR railway, they could not do it with Diefenbaker and the Avro Arrow, and
>: >: >they could not do it with Mulroney and the Internet.
>: >
>: >: What utter nonsense! You must be way past your bedtime little man.
>
>Live with it. John A. MacDonald was a drunk. His wife was a drug addict
>using opium that the Conservative friends in Boston (doing a great
>business in China) provided. These American "enterpreneurs" regarded drug
>dealing as their "right" in China. And this American and British drug
>policy for China, was backed up by military gun boats. Don't you read?
As a matter of fact I do (read). How did this affect free trade?
>John Diefenbaker destroyed Canada's aerospace industry. At the time,
>Canada built most of its own civil and military aircraft. Avro built the
>first ever jet airliner. Canada built the Otter and the Beaver bush planes
>at DeHaviland. But John was a Conservative tea toatler from Saskachewan, a
>small time prairie lawyer with no understanding as to how 20,000 Canadians
>earned their living. John Diefenbaker was no C.D. Howe. If the
>Conservatives had been in Government during the second world war, our air
>force would have still been flying Tiger Moths, and the navy would never
>have built the Corvette in the hundreds.
You know nothing about what you speak. As an airplane salesman, who
would you have sold the Avro Arrow to? What kind of price would you
have charged? I was an Airman, so I have some knowledge of the
industry. The Otter and Beaver are still used, and were o.k. in the
beginning, but VTOL's have taken over that part of the industry. Best
you get with the times.
>And then there is the granddaddy of all Conservative Nation Killers, Brian
>Mulroney. His scale of operation dwarfed even MacDonald and Diefenbaker.
>Brian could destroy cod fisheries in a single strok of his pen.
I know, I told those Newfie's not to rent him that Dory. Again, you're
talking crap. You make it sound like everything happened in nine
years.
>With a single role of the dice, he could and did split Canada from Quebec.
Shit!! I missed another bit of history. When did that occur?
>With FTA and NAFTA he obliterated an even playing field for entire unborn
>generations of Canadians.
I don't blame him for taking his ball and going home, with people like
you around. Cripes!!
>And with the GST, he reinvented the unequal, unelected and ineffective
>Canadian Senate. Yes he was a magnificent Nation Killer.
Man, what are you on? Must be a new batch in town.
>: >Go ahead and try to generate any propaganda you wish. The truth is cast in
>: >stone in the history books of this Nation. Do you think I just made it up
>: >about John A. MacDonald, or Mr. Diefenbaker? In Diefenbaker's case, the
>: >Conservatives were not satisfied with just destroying the Arrow Program.
>: >No, they resorted to vandalism and left finished aircraft cut up in pieces
>: >on the runways of Toronto's airport. All bought and paid for by Canadian
>: >taxpayers. Read it! Its a historic FACT in our Canadian history, complete
>: >with live television footage! Open your eyes! Read!
>
>: Anything you read is open to your own interpretation. Being a closer
>: to the Arrow project then you could have possibly been, I'll tell you
>: again that you don not know what you are talking about. It is a
>: political football that cannot last the game when the facts are known.
>: BTW, can you tell me who had placed orders for an Arrow? Or who was
>: remotely interested in it's high price tag?
>The Avro Arrow was designed under the Liberal Government of Mr. St.
>Larent to replace the aging CF100. The price tag, even with the navigation
>system that Avro advocated, was a small fraction of what subsequent
>Governments paid to American Aircraft manufacturers. for obsolete Bomarc
>"missiles", CF104s, C5 Talons, etc, etc, etc.
You are hilarious!! The role of the Arrow was that of an interceptor.
The Bomarc's (although not armed) was the same thing only cheaper and
was less risk to human life (no pilot). Besides, are you forgetting
the MIG? And the enemy of that era?
>: >: >At least Reform's Manning understands technology and change, and at least
>: >: >Mr. Manning at one time worked for a living. Who can say the same for Joe
>: >: >Who?
>: >
>: >: I will agree with that. As stated by Manning "you can't jump start a
>: >: 747 with a flashlight battery". Given that I guess it would better
>: >: qualify him as a technologist.
>: >
>: >He did his degree in Physics at the University of Alberta. In contast, Joe
>: >never finished Law. I call that a quitter.
>
>: He finished, but didn't pass the Bar examination. That's why he cannot
>: fight Maureen in the courts, as she has passed the "Bar".
>
>I live in Edmonton, where he attended and dropped out of school. Would you
>like to know the name of his professor?
He failed his "bar" examination at Dalhousie University in Halifax. I
knew of Joe when he lived in High River. He attended UofA prior to
going to Dal.
Frunk
fr...@hotmail.com
>fr...@hotmail.com wrote:
>: On 27 Sep 99 17:28:52 GMT, hifl...@ecn.ab.ca () wrote:
>: >Maritimers might support any Tory that could bring home a little "payola".
>: >But when will the Maritimers come to accept that they live in a rich part
>: >of Canada, that can provide a good living for everyone, if they would just
>: >stop giving everything away to Irving and Family?
>
>: I'm far from being an Irving fan, but they have been good for the
>: Maritimes. At least they stay and have never taken the financial aid
>: and run like companies from Ontario (Dynatek to name one).
>
>Sorry, but no cigar. K.C. Irving left and became a citizen of Burmuda, and
>insisted that his children do likewise, or lose their inheritance. Only an
>asshole would do that to his children.
KC Irving "moved" his financial assets to "Burmuda" (sic). His three
son's still operate entirely from their NB headquarters and are
gradually moving some to NS (due to natural gas). In his will he
stated that his son's must become Bermuda residents to inherit his
fortune. They are residents of Bermuda, living in Canada. Bermuda
afterall is a Commonwealth country.
<<snip>>
>: >That is about all they agree on. Manning is a "social conservative" and a
>: >strong Christian churchman. Manning is like his Dad. He will not tollerate
>: >any corruption, even a little. That is really bad news for Ontario
>: >Conservatives, who are as addicted to graft and corruption as kittens are
>: >to catnip.
>
>: Do you really believe that? I have more faith in humanity then that.
>
>Yes I really do believe what I write. His dad canned a Minister who have
>is hand in the cookie jar. And it was a rather small cookie.
I was referring to the "graft and corruption" in Ontario. I agree that
Manning would not tolerate corruption.
<<snip>>
>: What qualifies you to come up with that analysis? Harris told the
>: electorate (the first time) what he intended to do. He did as promised
>: and it got him elected again.
>Harris got elected because large amounts of money was used to advertise
>the weakness of his opponents. Crony Capitalism. Conrad Black is the dean
>in Toronto, and his thrice divorced wife, Barbara Amiel is the secretary.
>
> I agree that Ontario has benefited from
>: the American prosperity, but it still requires good management to
>: secure the confidence of investors.
>
>Just which "investors" are you talking about. "Electors" are not
>"investors", much as Tories would like otherwise.
Investors invest in area's they are confident of is my point.
<<snip>>
>: >No you have it all wrong. The problems left by Mulroney have scared this
>: >Nation for a generation. If the Prime Minister is unable to introduce what
>: >he promised on the GST, its because we still are climbing out of a very
>: >deep hole created by criminals in the Conservative Party.
>
>: Bunk!! Chretein had been an MP and a past Minister of Finance. He knew
>: damned well that the NAFTA and GST were solid idea's given the
>: changing world. But he took advantage of the unpopularity of any tax
>: to lead a bunch of blind lemmings over a cliff. What would have
>: happened to the MST in todays world trading? Do you actually believe
>: Canada would still be competing?
>
>I completely reject your world view of "global" "free trade". So would
>Marshall McLuhan, who understood better than most the coming "electric
>age" if television, media and computers and the powerful decentralizing
>role such technology plays in society.
>
>Just look around and count how many companies are manufacturing
>semiconductor CPUs in Canada? How many memory chips? Hell, we can't even
>build the boxes to house the stuff anymore. Well at one time MIL, Northern
>Telecom and others did all these things in Canada. I know, because I
>bought parts from them.
The blame for this can be aligned with Unions and high wages as well.
Canada has more high tech then you give credit for. The problem in
Canada has been it's lack of speed in supplying, more then anything
else. Due to high taxes, no one whats to carry a large stock, which is
understandable.
>The rest, I have dealt with.
><snip>
Frunk
bob
How is it possible for someone who knows sooooo little and understands even
less to go for soooo long.
Bob Bailie
hifl...@ecn.ab.ca wrote in message <37eec...@ecn.ab.ca>...
>Ciceroii (cice...@home.com) wrote:
>
Rick Jones
>
>: Maybe Western Canadians want an extinct PC party, but support remains strong in
>: Atlantic Canada and the PC's are the second place party in Ontario.
>
>Ontario will never accept any political party they cannot dominate and
>control. But at least the presence of Reform will ensure that Conrad
>Black, Mulroney and other right wing lunatics from Ontario will never
>again damage our Country, and certainly never again damage the West.
Brian Mulroney isn't from Ontario.
>: Chretien has mearly continued where Brian Mulroney left off, the same policies, just a
>: bit different style of governing.
>
>Give me a break. Last week the Liberals even succeeded in getting the
>Mounties image back from Disney. No big deal, but why do I feel so much
>better!
"Succeeded" in getting it back? The contract ran out. They didn't do
anything.
You're a little fast and loose with the facts.
hifl...@ecn.ab.ca
: On 30 Sep 99 17:28:25 GMT, hifl...@ecn.ab.ca () wrote:
: >fr...@hotmail.com wrote:
: >: On 27 Sep 99 17:59:07 GMT, hifl...@ecn.ab.ca () wrote:
: >: >By my count of criminal convictions, its Progressive Conservative 18, NDP
: >: >1, Liberals 0. The record speaks for itself.
: >
: >: Or the fact that the Liberals are masters are hiding it. Besides,
: >: would a Liberal appointed court convict one of their own?
: >
: >A man is innocent until proven guilty.
: Only in politics it seems. For the rest of the world that is a
: doubtful.
: > Been that way since at least
: >King Henry II. The winner in the "criminal category" is the Progressive
: >Conservative Party! (wild applause).
: I can't argue that point as your research appears valid. But then
: again I think that the Liberals are better at weaselling out of
: things.
Maybe its because the Liberals are better skaters, and know how to come up
to the line without crossing it. Now Poor Joe Clarke, is still just
learing how to stand up.
: >: >: <<snip>>
: >: >: >No doubt about it. The Conservatives are on the ropes, and hope to subvert
: >: >: >the Reform Party to stay in the game. But Canadians have had enough. What
: >: >: >we want is an "extinct" Progressive Conservative Party.
: >: >
: >: >: Would you like a one-party system? That appears to be your goal here.
: >: >
: >: >No. I would like the folks in Ontario and the Maritimes to turn toward
: >: >honest government that is free of graft and corruption, and help Preston
: >: >build the Reform Party in their neighbourhood, and make it their own. That
: >: >is what I hope for in Eastern Canada. We should bury the Progressive
: >: >Conservative Party as a historical relic representing the worst of the
: >: >Family Compact.
: >
: >: I can share that thought. The problems is that people in the Maritimes
: >: are slow to re-act to a new policy or party. They are building the
: >: Reform party here and it appears to be becoming quite visible. Many of
: >: my friends have indicated they will vote Reform federally in the nect
: >: election.
: >
: >Democracy needs more than one party capable of governing the country. But
: >the United Alternative is a merger with criminals.
: You may be right here. I have not paid much attention to the UA, and
: keep hoping that it will not deter the Reform goal. There are a lot of
: people out there that could make the Reform even better, as long as
: they guard against the other elements (like crooked Tories, etc).
: >Preston must have
: >slipped and fell in the shower.
: Or it could be a matter of personal greed.
What Preston, greedy. What are you saying. A Baptist? From Alberta?
Greedy? Wow, what a revelation!
: >: >: <<snip>>
: >: >: >Perhaps most of this is true, but you should give credit where credit is
: >: >: >due. Brian Mulroney nearly destroyed Canada.
: >: >
: >: >: I am far from being a Mulroney fan, but this is absolutely false.
: >: >: Turner, Trudeau and Mulroney must share this distinction. I suggest
: >: >: you research some of the destruction before you apply it to any one
: >: >: person.
: >: >
: >: >In finance alone, this lunatic increased the public debt from 154 billion
: >: >(an accumulated debt since Confederation to 1984 when Mulroney took over)
: >: >to at least 470 billion.
: >: >
: >: >This debt will saddle a generation, and will spell the end of Canada as we
: >: >knew it.
: >
: >: The debt is manageable with the right leadership. Problem is, it isn't
: >: there right now.
: >
: >Marginally, perhaps. The current Liberal Government is at a minimum
: >capable of governing the country without the criminal activity. I have
: >modest expectations, and the mess after Mulroney would discourage even the
: >Junior Chamber of Commerce.
: Actually, if the truth be known, Martin (being a disguised fiscal
: conservative) could straighten the whole mess out, if it were not for
: Chretein.
Martin & Martin does not the Liberal Party make. Its not so simple in
politics as to simply prostrate oneself before the Bankers of Bay Street.
: >: >: > It will take a miracle to
: >: >: >restore Canadian independence, but it could happen under Chretien.
: >: >: What in hell are you talking about, restore what "independence"? What
: >: >: do you propose?
: >: >
: >: >The FTA and NAFTA has so seriously compromised our Country's independence,
: >: >that today the Government does not even have the freedom of action to even
: >: >encourage Canadians to preferentially invest in their own Country!!!
: >: >Just wake up and smell the coffee. Kantor (US negotiator) said "in ten
: >: >years we will have them". I hope he's wrong, but I fear he's right.
: >
: >: Canadians never have been investors like the US people are. We are
: >: also highly taxed and do not have the tax loop-holes enjoyed by the
: >: Americans. Free Trade has been good for Canada, but the low dollar,
: >: being sustained by the government is hiding the true picture.
: >
: >Canada boasts the highest per capita population of inventors in the world
: >bar none. So there are no shortage of good ideas.
: "Inventors" yes. Investors no.
: >I disagree entirely on your point with the FTA and NAFTA. Our domestic
: >economy has been irraparably damaged by these Mulroney initiatives.
: Where? People keep saying that FTA and NAFTA has been detrimental to
: our (Canada's) good health, but never offer any solid facts. These
: initiatives have prompted Canadians to being better traders and has
: increased entrepenural numbers immensely, as it allows the _small_
: business to compete with the bigger ones. Tarriff and duty walls
: hindered the small guy until things were opened with FTA/NAFTA. Even
: the blind Liberals recognized that after they were elected.
The fact that real income in Canada has started a dramatic declime in
Canada since these trade agreement have started coming into effect. What
cripples the Liberals is the debt left behind by Mulroney. The
conservatives practiced a "scorched earth policy" in trade. But even
scorched earth eventually heals and begins growing anew.
: > Nor do
: >I support "globalization". I support "local free markets" that are
: >protected as necessary against international arms dealers, drug cartels,
: >and "investors" from foreign locations (such as Boston, for example, eager
: >to re-invest their profits from the opium trade in China.
: "Local free markets" are an internal matter that our two levels of
: government do not seem to want to deal with. Only by organizing small
: business can they put enough pressure on the gov't to make any
: headway. As productions keeps getting more effecient (provided by the
: very instrument we are using here), we must expand our market place in
: order to sell. If we stick to "local markets" they soon become
: saturated and cease to exist. Then what?
You seem to have the "Bill Gates" paradox. Economists have long argued
that it is "folly" to not share that which cannot be owned. Software for
example is something by its very nature that cannot be "owned".
Technology can produce ANY quantity we need of certain commodities and
services at incremental costs that are disappearing almost completely. In
communications for example, installed long distance capacity has become
so cheap and so vast, that virtually any demand can be cheaply satisfied.
The past legitimate arguements for "monopolies" no longer apply to this
industry.
Personally I think that the "private ownership of the means of production"
is a greatly over emphasized concept, and that with telecommunications
that are plentiful and inexpensive or free, that as Marshall McLuhan,
stated, the "electric age" will be a dramatic force for decentralization,
highly localized markets, but with global awareness. That is about as far
as one can go from the current FTA and NAFTA "globalization" plans of
multi-national corporations desparate to maintain their positions of
authority and power.
: <<snip>>
: >: >The Mulroney Progressive Conservative Government was driven from office
: >: >because of graft and corruption and is reflected in Saskachewan and
: >: >Manitoba, where the Party has collapsed. I say good riddance.
: >: Your confusing Provincial and Federal politics. Saskatchewan PC
: >: (Devine) crooks had nothing to do with the Mulroney government.
: >It was run from Ottawa. What the hell do you think the Senator/Jailbirds
: >from Saskachewan and Quebec Conservative Party were doing? Kissing babies?
: I hardly think that policy in Sask/Man was being directed from Ottawa.
: The "PC Crooks" were convicted of padded expense acounts, which are a
: Provincial responsibility. Devine was the Premier at that time.
Yea, with connections right into Ottawa. Give me a break!
: <<snip>>
: >: >Not as I see it. I actually see no difference between Progressive
: >: >Conservatives and Ukraine's communists, when it comes to political
: >: >tactics. The only difference, is that in Canada the Conservatives wear
: >: >blue tee shirts, and in Ukraine the communists wear red tee shirts.
: >
: >: Maybe their Liberals. ;-)
: >Can't be. Liberals are survivors.
: Liberals are "masters of deceit".
Sorry. That prize has already been taken by the Progressive Conservative
Party which won it with Brian Mulroney's catchy slogan, "Jobs, Jobs,
Jobs"!
: >: >: >Most Canadians are grown up enough to understand that all our troubles
: >: >: >began with Brian Mulroney and his efforts to apply extreme right wing
: >: >: >republican political policies to our situation in Canada.
: >: >
: >: >: Like what? You cannot include free trade and the GST in these
: >: >: arguments. And don't forget, the Liberals have not only accepted these
: >: >: programs, but have expanded free trade. So, "can you tell the
: >: >: difference?".
: >: >
: >: >The GST thing is not finished. But the hole Mulroney dug under Canada is
: >: >so deep that this most hated tax in Canadian history cannot be removed
: >: >without endangering the Country. I understand it. But I still hate it.
: >
: >: You mean to tell me that you would prefer the (hidden)MST to the GST?
: >I favor a total overhaul of the tax system. I favor the total and complete
: >elimination of "income tax".
: Don't we all. But it can't happen.
Oh contrair my friend. What we must do, is each elect "independant" MPs
who have a couple of simple platform items. As I see it this would be:
"I pledge to spend the next four years in Ottawa supporting the following
initiatives:
- A review of all legislation to make it simplier, less convoluted and
more precise, but drafting replacement legislation in plain English (and
working French) for both the Legislation and its Regulation.
- A repeal of all taxes, fees, and charges in Canada, and provision of a
replacement system which takes advantage of electronic commerse and
computers, and which charges companies taxes as a fixed percentage of the
funds actually paid by firms during the ordinary course of their business.
- A prohibition on all other Provinces and Municipalities from charging
any taxes in any manner whatsoever, the intent being to protect firms from
zealots in Provincial and Municipal governments, and to compel all
government to share funds generated from a single modern and electronic
form of taxation that would be free of loopholes, free of exemptions, and
free of boondoggles and political considerations.
: >I favor the total and complete elimination of
: >"corporate taxes" on profits. What I favor is a simple fixed percentage
: >tax on corporate spending, electronically deducted at the banks as these
: >corporate cheques clear the system, and forwarded to the Receiver for
: >distribution to the Federal, Provincial and Municipal Governments in
: >Canada, without loopholes or exceptions.
: And if I arrive to buy with a "bag of cash" what then? No
: accountibility anywhere, just like the current underground economy.
It would be rather simple to require all business trasacted in Canada over
say $5,000 per year to be transacted in a corporate form. That would
include farming and fishing.
The "bag of cash" has no effect on individuals who would be exempt from
all taxes, hence no requirement for accounts. Corporations would not be
allowed to use a "bag of cash" to pay their bills. Most corporations today
pay bills by cheque. Making it mandatory, as part of the Corporations Act,
is consistent with the other objectives of creating corporations in the
first place.
: Ever hear of "fudging books", most accountants can perform that little
: task very easily.
Its hard to cook books when all trasactions are documented with source
documents (such as bank cheques and deposits), and where no "cash
transactions are allowed.
Retailers may try to cheat, but there are tools to document and capture
the evidence for cheating.
What we do need is improved legislation related to electronic money, and
in particular, the protection of INFORMATION related to individual
customer behavior as evidenced by his financial information. This data,
seems to me to have most of the same attributes of one medical data and
should be protected.
: >The percentage fee should be
: >fixed and approved by Parliament. No Legislature or Municipal Council
: >should have any other method to prey on corporations or individuals, apart
: >from this one source of taxation.
: So what if the "Corporation" is located in Ontario and the buyer is
: from Quebec what would happen there?
It would not matter. One fixed legislated rate for all of Canada. All
Provincial tax differentials would be gone.
: Corporate rich Ontario would have
: the best of everthing due to the size of it's bite. And what if Ottawa
: decided to share the wealth? Do you think Ontario would accept the
: fact that their Corporate dollars was going to PEI?
It does so today already in the form of "transfer payments". What would be
different is that the administrative load would be removed from companies.
Most would welcome such a change, and most would prefer a "level playing
field, where tax rates are constant across Canada.
: >
: >A before all the bureaucrats start moaning how "difficult" or "impossible"
: >the suggested change would be, they should study the benefits of the
: >proposal for everyone in our Country, individuals, corporations, local,
: >provincial and federal governments. Everyone.
: I can see no benefit to anyone here. You're talking the true face of
: Communism. A centralized, fully controlling "big head".
Not at all. What I'm talking about, is a simplified tax system that is
designed to be as user friendly as possible for corporations. The fight
between Ottawa and the Provinces will not ever stop. But at least we could
contain it to a forum that does not the rest of us ransom to their combat
activities.
I by far prefer the Provinces and the Feds fighting out their budget
demands in a quasi-judicial panel, with public interventions, then the
current closed door practice.
: >: > : >: >It failed, and