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On May 31, 2016, at 12:39 PM, Amy Wilhelm <netcru...@gmail.com> wrote:At any rate, regardless of the people involved or in charge and regardless of their trustworthiness or personal ability to distinguish what is and is not interpersonal excellence, it's often helpful to have something more concrete than a parable when, not if, someone decides to bring their version of "but who is my neighbor?" to a simple "be excellent to each other" or "don't be a dick" policy. Or to entirely preempt that.
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On May 31, 2016, at 8:49 PM, Ian Finder <ian.f...@gmail.com> wrote:If they're dead set on being a dick, I don't think written bylaws will stop them. I'd actually expect such a thing to egg them on.
If there is really a persistent issue, bring it up with an organizer to assess. If health and safety are at risk, it becomes an issue for the authorities to deal with.
But let's please not plan for a storm, lest we get one…
Rubin,
You've asked a great question, and i think it is a valid one to ask. There have been (minor) issues in the past at toor* events, but nothing has yet triggered a community standard.
It is great that we are discussing this, and i strongly suspect just by asking the good questions it may reach the people who need to think about this the most.
The strongest tool we have is community and self policing behavior. Enough good eggs come to toor events that self policing behavior is rather possible.
If that fails, we start kicking people off the island. Easy!
Cheers,
3
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*sigh*. This isn't noisebridge.
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Stupid question, but why does there need to be a code of conduct for bad behavior that wouldn't be okay in the real world to begin with? In addition, what would codifing such things do that speaking to one of the organizers or security goons won't accomplish if things get out of hand?
There is an adage that everyone should have grown up with: treat others the way you would like to be treated. Otherwise you and the people around you will have a less than ideal time, and that would not be awesome.
cab
Stupid question, but why does there need to be a code of conduct for bad behavior that wouldn't be okay in the real world to begin with? In addition, what would codifing such things do that speaking to one of the organizers or security goons won't accomplish if things get out of hand?
There is an adage that everyone should have grown up with: treat others the way you would like to be treated. Otherwise you and the people around you will have a less than ideal time, and that would not be awesome.
cab
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On Jun 1, 2016, at 2:58 PM, 3ric Johanson <ericjo...@gmail.com> wrote:
Toorcamp and toorcon related events have been safe places for years
and years.
This is in part because they are really actually somewhat
exclusive events, because toor* events self select for nice people.
Where other events struggle is when they spend time and money to grow
beyond their local network; with these explosive growing pains, it
tends to require things such as code of conducts and more security and
policies.
We do not have 20,000 people camping with us.
We are very very far
away from having the critical mass which would require us to spend
lots of energy on things like Anti-Harassment Policies.
I'm not saying
they are bad to have - - at all - - they are a requirement for large
events.
Part of what makes this this event special and cool is because
it is small and private and not full of harassment.
Pestering the toorcamp organizers into spending energy on this when
they could be spending their energy on more pressing issues seems
really misguided.
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> Additionally, codes of conduct are very useful for risk mitigation, both for the organizers and the attendees.
See, I keep hearing that, and I don't even disbelieve it, but is there any empirical evidence? I really would like to hear stories from people who used a complex Code of Conduct to squelch drama in a way that would have not been possible with a simplified code of conduct and a little common sense.
I was a founding member of the BrainSilo hackerspace, and executive director for many years, and I have been a key organizer, and am current president of BSides Portland, so this isn't even a theoretical question for me. In my experience, it was never about the rules on the wall, but more about how the leadership interacted with the community. More specifically, it was how comfortable the community was talking with the leadership about awkward things, like the weird dude sleeping on the couch. Does the leadership give a shit? If yes, things will be fine, if no, then no number of rules is going to save you.
The last thing I want to do is bring Portland drama into the Toorcon community, but I think there are lessons to be learned here. Opinions are my own from my single perspective, and don't necessarily represent anyone else's from any previous organization that I've been a part of.
First off, I'm sure there are many reasons Flux was founded, but I'm pretty sure one of the key motivators was BrainSilo's refusal to get involved with the Code of Conduct drama, and related issues around early BrainSilo leadership. While BrainSilo stuck with "Be Excellent to Each Other", Flux was founded with a much more complex code of conduct, as mentioned earlier in this thread. The Code of Conduct, as well as the verbiage in the mission statement made it clear that Flux was founded as a safe space for female and LGBT community members, which is great. Unfortunately, what wasn't clear, was if anyone else was welcome. In my opinion, the language, while well intentioned, ended up being more exclusionary than welcoming. I have to say though, I hung out at Flux quite a few times, and every time I did, I felt welcome, and it really did provide a great atmosphere.
Now we over at BrainSilo also had a good number of female and LGBT members, as well as anarchists, and more conservative, survivalist types. We were a very diverse group of people, racially, culturally, politically, economically, and most of the time, we all got along great. We were all united there for our love of tech, and getting shit done in fun and creative ways. Issues like gender politics, while important issues of our day, were simply irrelevant to the projects that we were working on, so those issues just didn't come up. We had a "No Drama" sign on the wall that I think was actually quite effective. People more interested in starting drama rather than working on creative projects were asked to leave.
Flux didn't last too long. There are probably many reasons why Flux shut down. In my outside opinion, the most prominent one was that the rent was too damn high. However, I do think that their insistence on a membership base that came from a very narrow part of the political spectrum contributed to their inability to keep membership up. I have also heard that there was a significant amount of political infighting, which I believe is a symptom of an overly complex rule set and leadership structure.
I really think it all comes down to leadership style. When I'm in charge, I appreciate the flexibility and simplicity of "Be Excellent to Each Other", and in the smaller organizations I've helped run, it has been more than sufficient. Of course I wouldn't go down to the bay area and dictate that my leadership style would work at Noisebridge, because I haven't really been involved in that community. Likewise, I wouldn't dictate my philosophies on the Toorcon organization, which again, has been running things quite smoothly for 17 years. Whatever David and Tim come up with, I'm sure it will only augment their leadership style, and strengthen the organization.
- DEAN
Additionally, codes of conduct are very useful for risk mitigation, both for the organizers and the attendees.
~mj
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Issues like gender politics, while important issues of our day, were simply irrelevant to the projects that we were working on, so those issues just didn't come up.
"We were a very diverse group of people, racially, culturally, politically, economically, and most of the time, we all got along great. We were all united there for our love of tech, and getting shit done in fun and creative ways. Issues like gender politics, while important issues of our day, were simply irrelevant to the projects that we were working on, so those issues just didn't come up. We had a "No Drama" sign on the wall that I think was actually quite effective."
There is no sadder duet than one member saying "It was great how it all just worked and nothing like you're describing happened" and a second, much quieter voice saying "Nobody noticed when it did."
Those are definitely fair points. I do see utility in having something to let complete outsiders know the difference between an ecstacy fueled rave and a children's petting zoo. We were all new once. My first year at DEFCON I didn't know anyone and had no idea what to expect.
- DEAN
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Trolling mailing lists and trying to start fights is not very excellent behavior, and disrespectful gender shaming like that would definitely get you forcibly removed from any organization that I've ever had a leadership role in.
- DEAN
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On Jun 7, 2016, at 8:00 AM, Dean Pierce <pier...@gmail.com> wrote:I really would like to hear stories from people who used a complex Code of Conduct to squelch drama in a way that would have not been possible with a simplified code of conduct and a little common sense
one of the key motivators was BrainSilo’s refusal to get involved with the Code of Conduct drama,
Issues like gender politics, while important issues of our day, were simply irrelevant to the projects that we were working on, so those issues just didn’t come up. We had a "No Drama" sign on the wall that I think was actually quite effective. People more interested in starting drama rather than working on creative projects were asked to leave.
When I’m in charge, I appreciate the flexibility and simplicity of "Be Excellent to Each Other", and in the smaller organizations I've helped run, it has been more than sufficient.
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If I recall correctly, Geo announced at the close that the Hope code of conduct would be adopted, s/hope/toorcamp/gi.
This one perhaps?
https://hope.net/codeofconduct.html
--Rob
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So, did action ever come of this, or was it quietly placed on the shelf until next year?
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