Anti-Harassment Policy and/or Code of Conduct/Community Standards?

[Rubin Abdi]

Serious question, asking if Toorcamp this year will have an Anti-Harassment Policy and/or Code of Conduct/Community Standards? Thanks.

--

Rubin
ru...@starset.net

[breedx]

1) No shitting in the power dome?

[Dave Null]

Breedx,

Don't oppress me.

-noid

Crypto: https://keybase.io/noid

None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free - Goethe
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[breedx]

The true oppression comes when the hax0r plebs are forced to remain on the surface to endure the solar radiation and violent blasts of volcanic ash storms and assorted draculas while the digital elite are adjusting their monocles and shitting idly in the cool subterranean comfort of the power dome.  #honeypotgate2009

[Pavel Kirkovsky]

I looked on both the Toorcon and Toorcamp pages but did not find any references to a Code of Conduct or anything similar.

Maybe David can clarify?

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[Tim Huynh]

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thanks,

Tim

[Dean Pierce]

Hi Rubin, I don't know you, so I'm going to assume your intentions are pure, but this has debate has actually be a huge point of (incredibly frustrating) contention in the hacker community for many many years now.  Of course we can all agree that the most conducive learning environments are places where people feel safe and comfortable.  The people in the hacker community, however, by their very nature are driven to over-analyze any set of rules, looking for any point in which rules can be bent or broken.  Anything more complex than the standard "Be Excellent to Each Other" is just added attack surface, debates over which have torn once great communities apart, often causing more harm than good.

I 100% understand that there are some communities in which "Be Excellent to Each Other" hasn't worked out too great, but this is where we must delegate trust to David, Tim, and the rest of the ToorCon crew with their stellar, nearly two decades of experience running cons, sometimes multiple cons per year.  Personally, I have complete faith in their ability to remove the non-excellent elements, while keeping intact the creativity, expressiveness, and mischievousness that defines us as a community.

   - DEAN

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[Amy Wilhelm]

I think if there's anything to be learned from the current national tantrum over nondiscrimination law (and historical ones), it's that people either flouncing over anti-oppressive policies (which harassment policies and nondiscrimination laws are both subtypes of) or trying to rules-lawyer them are really doing the community a favor in excising themselves or marking themselves as likely troublemakers, respectively. Which is better than finding out the hard way.

At any rate, regardless of the people involved or in charge and regardless of their trustworthiness or personal ability to distinguish what is and is not interpersonal excellence, it's often helpful to have something more concrete than a parable when, not if, someone decides to bring their version of "but who is my neighbor?" to a simple "be excellent to each other" or "don't be a dick" policy. Or to entirely preempt that.

Just my 2c.

And... party on, dudes.

- Amy

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[Pavel Kirkovsky]

On May 31, 2016, at 12:39 PM, Amy Wilhelm <netcru...@gmail.com> wrote:

At any rate, regardless of the people involved or in charge and regardless of their trustworthiness or personal ability to distinguish what is and is not interpersonal excellence, it's often helpful to have something more concrete than a parable when, not if, someone decides to bring their version of "but who is my neighbor?" to a simple "be excellent to each other" or "don't be a dick" policy. Or to entirely preempt that.

Agreed. I love the Bill & Ted movies consider “be excellent to each other” to be a positive sentiment we should all embrace, but it’s insufficient when it comes to dealing with actual problems involving real people. Someone else put it best: “If you think it’s obvious that you shouldn’t harass people at a conference, then you are not the person the policy is written for."

Open Source Bridge’s code of conduct quite thorough and licensed under Creative Commons (it could be used almost verbatim and implemented with minimal effort): http://opensourcebridge.org/about/code-of-conduct/

[Ian Finder]

Maybe I'll be proven wrong, and maybe there are things in past years I didn't know about, but this whole line of discussion seems awful premature to me...

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[Pavel Kirkovsky]

> On May 31, 2016, at 8:31 PM, Ian Finder <ian.f...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Maybe I’ll be proven wrong, and maybe there are things in past years I didn't know about, but this whole line of discussion seems awful premature to me...

OK, I’ll bite and state the obvious: it’s best to have such policies in place *before* harassment becomes a problem.

----------------
Pavel Kirkovsky
pa...@kirkovsky.com (Email/XMPP)
kirkovsky.com

OTR Fingerprint: 0DC94FB7 CF0F6989 E2746A37 0EADCF54 00145E35
Key fingerprint: 4328 CFD6 7B46 A8FB 3227 0F4F 0CE4 A0B8 3F3F C81F

[Charles]

Here is the "Unacceptable Behavior" list from that link. I do not feel
it is unreasonable to tell people not to do these things. Being
specific about unacceptable behavior is good - For example, when camping
it's easy to just say "respect your environment"- but far better to
clarify what might seem obvious or self-evident to an experienced
outdoor-ist, e.g., don't piss in the reservoir nor leave fires unattended.

And yes, history shows us that people do need to be reminded not do
these things, and it is ideal to have clear guidelines. Otherwise we
are potentially at the mercy of the sophists who would enjoy enjoy
debating the definition of "excellence" ad infinitum.

"""

Violence, threats of violence or violent language directed against
another person.
Sexist, racist, homophobic, transphobic, ableist or otherwise
discriminatory jokes and language.
Posting or displaying sexually explicit or violent material.
Posting or threatening to post other people’s personally identifying
information ("doxing").
Personal insults, particularly those related to gender, sexual
orientation, race, religion, or disability.
Inappropriate photography or recording.
Inappropriate physical contact. You should have someone’s consent
before touching them.
Unwelcome sexual attention. This includes, sexualized comments or
jokes; inappropriate touching, groping, and unwelcomed sexual advances.
Deliberate intimidation, stalking or following (online or in person).
Advocating for, or encouraging, any of the above behavior.
Sustained disruption of community events, including talks and
presentations.

"""


On 6/1/2016 12:49 PM, Ian Finder wrote:
> As an addendum- I would really like to believe that 500 people have it
> in themselves to be excellent to each other for 4 days of fun.
>
> And if one person is not being excellent, I would like to believe the
> remaining 499 can, one way or another, convince that person to be excellent.
>
> ToorCamp should be a safe, respectful, and fun environment for everyone-
> I don't think having a rigorous, written code of conduct will
> necessarily make it more of any of these things.
>
> If you see someone being not excellent, perhaps try and convince them
> of what they need to do to be excellent.
>
> If they're dead set on being a dick, I don't think written bylaws will
> stop them. I'd actually expect such a thing to egg them on.
>
> If there is really a persistent issue, bring it up with an organizer to
> assess. If health and safety are at risk, it becomes an issue for the
> authorities to deal with.
>
> I don't think a Creative Commons licensed wiki page will help much in
> the disheartening event such issues occur.
>
> But let's please not plan for a storm, lest we get one...
>
> - I
>
> On Tuesday, May 31, 2016, Ian Finder <ian.f...@gmail.com

> <mailto:ian.f...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Maybe I'll be proven wrong, and maybe there are things in past years
> I didn't know about, but this whole line of discussion seems awful
> premature to me...
>
> On Tuesday, May 31, 2016, Pavel Kirkovsky <pa...@kirkovsky.com

> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/toorcamp/201998D7-5E36-4677-AFD5-4B73E46AB1D0%40kirkovsky.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.

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>
>
>
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>
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[Amy Wilhelm]

On May 31, 2016, at 8:49 PM, Ian Finder <ian.f...@gmail.com> wrote:

If they're dead set on being a dick, I don't think written bylaws will stop them. I'd actually expect such a thing to egg them on.

I, again, believe they’d probably flounce or alternatively mark themselves as likely troublemakers, as I speculated earlier. I could be wrong. But my experience is that folks often like to announce their opposition to specific standards of behavior rather than start off by breaking them. 

If there is really a persistent issue, bring it up with an organizer to assess. If health and safety are at risk, it becomes an issue for the authorities to deal with.

Why don’t we save the organizers some trouble, and save their involvement for things at risk of escalating to a point of risking welfare of participants? Adjudicating is a pain in the ass - but it’s something made much easier if the basis for it is clear. And, meaning no disrespect to said organizers, it’s a lot easier to both have consistent standards and to enforce them at all if they’re on paper.

But let's please not plan for a storm, lest we get one…

You know, I wasn’t sold on this, but I find this line of reasoning compelling. It’s really uncomfortable for me to board a ship with life jackets and life boats. Could you let me know how you’re getting to Orcas Island? I may like to join you instead of tempting fate on the MV Yakima which is equipped to the unnecessarily risky standards promulgated by the Coast Guard.

[3ric Johanson]

Rubin,

You've asked a great question, and i think it is a valid one to ask.  There have been (minor) issues in the past at toor* events, but nothing has yet triggered a community standard. 

It is great that we are discussing this, and i strongly suspect just by asking the good questions it may reach the people who need to think about this the most. 

The strongest tool we have is community and self policing behavior.   Enough good eggs come to toor events that self policing behavior is rather possible.

If that fails, we start kicking people off the island.  Easy! 

Cheers,
3

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[Rubin Abdi]

Hi all, thanks for contributing your opinions an suggestions to the thread.

First off I'd appreciate seeing an official response from someone part of Toorcamp regarding my original question.

Right after I sent the first email in this thread I had a number of people email me off list thanking me for bringing up this question. If there are others who also want to see something like a code of conduct, or community guidelines, or an anti-harassment policy, maybe it's worth while to not play the card of "let's wait till it's a problem". When it's become a problem it's too late.

Not having a code of conduct is like saying, "we don't need a security audit, because our company has a culture of security." Bad things are already happening in our hacker communities, it's just that they might not be visible to everyone.

Additionally having someone on #toorcamp threaten to harass me then state that it was simply a joke isn't great. Joke or not, if you're waiting for problems to surface before seeing the need for drafting up such guidelines, I think you've just literally hit that point.

If Toorcamp would like to show its respects to all kinds of people, wants to support diversity by fostering inclusiveness, it should work towards some sort of guidelines for the community to adhere to in order to provide folks with something to gauge if they could possible feel comfortable participating with the event.

Still tooting the "be excellent" horn? I'm a founding member of Noisebridge who helped push our be excellent motto in the early days, and I can tell you right now that it doesn't mean shit without our anti-harassment policy. If you want further reading regarding that...

https://shadowspar.dreamwidth.org/121109.html

http://www.ashedryden.com/blog/codes-of-conduct-101-faq#cocfaqjerks

Thanks for reading.

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[3ric Johanson]

*sigh*.  This isn't noisebridge.

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[Astrid Smith]

That's correct!  We're trying to sponsor an environment where people feel comfortable sleeping.  An explicit enumeration of expectations is even more important.

 

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Astrid

[mitch altman]

Come on folks.  What's the big deal?  A simple statement that certain conducts are not OK is incredibly helpful for lots of people.  It's very inviting.  As we all know, we don't live in an ideal world.  If we did, a CoC (and discussion about one) would be totally unnecessary.  That this discussion is taking place at all shows that we are not in an ideal world.  So, why not give a simple statement that explicitly states that all are welcome who mutually respectful?

It was super painful and difficult, and took a loooooon time, but we came up with a Code of Conduct I really like a lot.  We're using it again for The Eleventh HOPE.  Please check it out, and use it if you like.  There's a "Code of Conduct" tab on our main page:
http://hope.net/

Best,
Mitch.





------------------

[chris baumbauer]

Stupid question, but why does there need to be a code of conduct for bad behavior that wouldn't be okay in the real world to begin with? In addition, what would codifing such things do that speaking to one of the organizers or security goons won't accomplish if things get out of hand?

There is an adage that everyone should have grown up with: treat others the way you would like to be treated. Otherwise you and the people around you will have a less than ideal time, and that would not be awesome.

cab

[David Huerta]

On Wednesday, June 1, 2016, chris baumbauer <cab...@gmail.com> wrote:

Stupid question, but why does there need to be a code of conduct for bad behavior that wouldn't be okay in the real world to begin with? In addition, what would codifing such things do that speaking to one of the organizers or security goons won't accomplish if things get out of hand?

There is an adage that everyone should have grown up with: treat others the way you would like to be treated. Otherwise you and the people around you will have a less than ideal time, and that would not be awesome.

Should have, yes. Actually have: not always.

The CoC we have at NYC Resistor took a few drafts over several weeks before it was finally published. Let's give the Toor folks some time to come up with theirs.

 

cab

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[Dean Pierce]

Most of us on this list are quite aware of the Noisebridge dramalanche
that came from their failure to properly implement "Be Excellent to
Each Other". As it turns out though, many organizations have operated
very well under that simplified code of conduct. Toorcon is a shining
example of a community which has operated for 17 years without the
need of an overly complex code of conduct. Maybe, just maybe, the
problem with Noisebridge was less about the code of conduct, and more
about their reporting and leadership structure.

It seems kind of ridiculous that the Noisebridge drama is still trying
to percolate its way though the rest of the tech scene so many years
later. For many years the Infosec scene has almost unanimously
rejected the need for complex codes of conduct for exactly all the
reasons listed above, and no one is going to change anyone's mind by
trolling a mailing list today.

We already have the final word for this year's code of conduct, passed
down to us by our glorious leadership (Tim). There's nothing to
discuss anymore. If you don't like it, you can spend the next week
compiling a list of instances where Code of Conduct has helped more
than it hurt, and we discuss it like civilized people in the woods
over a warm cup of hot cocoa.

- DEAN

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[Amy Wilhelm]

I mean, there doesn't. I don't think anyone expects a code of conduct
to spell out no murder, no theft, no arson. Though, technically, we
*did* just have an exceedingly civil conversation about what
constitutes arson for this particular ToorCamp.

As far as what might be okay in the real world... from the Open Source
Bridge CoC Pavel linked, one of the things enumerated as unacceptable:

> Sexist, racist, homophobic, transphobic, ableist or otherwise discriminatory jokes and language.

Okay, a few things, but one of the bullet points. I don't think this
is controversial (and if you find it controversial, you're the reason
cons need a code of conduct, hope that helps), but these aren't
necessarily things that wouldn't be okay in the real world to begin
with. I mean, they're not to me or around me or in a workplace
(speaking of places that prove the importance of codes of conduct...)
but in general these describe common behavior (and common political
positions (fuck I-1515)).

Having a code of conduct means marginalized people can trust you when
you say they're welcome at your event.

On Wed, Jun 1, 2016 at 4:09 AM, chris baumbauer <cab...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[Tim Huynh]

Hey everybody, 

thanks for your input and patience. We're working on something that is a little more comprehensive, but it's going to take a little time and we have a few things on our plate right now. Please expect something by opening remarks next week. 

thanks,

Tim

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thanks,

Tim

[Pavel Kirkovsky]

Thanks, Tim! Your (and the whole TC team's) effort on this is much appreciated.

-Pavel

Sent from my Радио-86РК

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[Rubin Abdi]

Thank you Tim. Really appreciate hearing a response. If there's something you all could post before the event actually starts that would be excellent.

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[Cory]

It's true that most of the ideas proposed here for a code of conduct are not controversial.  However, it's clear that just having one *IS* controversial.

We should definitely continue with a civil discussion on the matter whether it be on this list, in the chat room, or at the camp itself.  However, it doesn't seem reasonable to expect Tim and David to reconsider and revise their long standing view on this less than a week before the event when they are no-doubt incredibly busy.  Especially since deciding to adopt or reject the proposed changes is likely to alienate a group of people either way.  I know it's supposed to support inclusiveness, but I can't imagine there's anyone waiting in the wings this close to the event who isn't going to buy a ticket until these changes are made.

If we can have a calm, civil, and rational discussion that results in terms mutually agreeable to the vast majority of us, it's highly likely they'll decide to adopt those terms for future events.

Should we schedule a discussion about this for next week on-site?

[Jinna Lei]

Thanks for that articulate and comprehensive response. The pushback to having a code of conduct / anti-harassment policy is both baffling and worrying.

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[mark burdett]

Hi all, I wanted to say thanks folks for pushing on this! I'd echo what
others have eloquently stated: clear standards, and process for what to
do when something isn't right, is a critical first step to making a
space safe, inclusive and inviting.

I hope everyone agrees this is what ToorCamp wants to be, after all the
tagline is /the/ American hacker camp, which sets a high bar for
inclusion - two whole continents :)

Promoting the camp's commitment to these goals is essential to getting
all the folks who /should/ be involved in ToorCamp (as speakers,
participants, workshop leaders, volunteers etc.) thru the gate in the
first place.

--mark B.

On 06/01/2016 10:36 AM, Rubin Abdi wrote:
> Thank you Tim. Really appreciate hearing a response. If there's
> something you all could post before the event actually starts that would
> be excellent.
>
> On 1 June 2016 at 10:11, Pavel Kirkovsky <pa...@kirkovsky.com

> <mailto:pa...@kirkovsky.com>> wrote:
>
> Thanks, Tim! Your (and the whole TC team's) effort on this is much
> appreciated.
>
> -Pavel
>
>
> Sent from my Радио-86РК
>
> On Jun 1, 2016, at 9:05 AM, Tim Huynh <t...@huynh.co

>> <mailto:toorcamp%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>.

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>> Tim
>>
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[3ric Johanson]

This is the last time I'm going to post on this thread.

Toorcamp and toorcon related events have been safe places for years
and years. This is in part because they are really actually somewhat
exclusive events, because toor* events self select for nice people.

Where other events struggle is when they spend time and money to grow
beyond their local network; with these explosive growing pains, it
tends to require things such as code of conducts and more security and
policies. We do not have 20,000 people camping with us.

Many years ago we all laughed at the price list for replacing a
doorframe or bed from defcon; that grew out of growth. Our largest
conflict these days are over pets and firepits. We are very very far
away from having the critical mass which would require us to spend
lots of energy on things like Anti-Harassment Policies. I'm not saying
they are bad to have - - at all - - they are a requirement for large
events. This is a small private event, guessing 90% of the folks
there are repeat customers.

I have a huge amount of faith in the toorcamp folks to put on a good
event. Part of what makes this this event special and cool is because
it is small and private and not full of harassment.

Pestering the toorcamp organizers into spending energy on this when
they could be spending their energy on more pressing issues seems
really misguided. I'm sure one of these years a toor-wide policy will
get published. And we will all be just fine both before and after
that happens.

Cheers
-3ric

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