JCO reprint
Gary Couzens
sure how you're meant to say it) has been reprinted in Darkness: Two Decades
of Modern Horror, edited by Ellen Datlow for Tachyon Books, March 2010.
Gary
Max Alberts
| I wonder if we could share our perceptions of the elements that constitute a great horror story? Some us us may favor the subtle approach, others more the grand guignol style. Since it's suddenly autumn, and the wind is blowing cold and my fireplace wil be lit for the first time of the season tonight, I'm looking not only for perceptions, but recommendations that will scare the sleep out of me. Thanks, everyone! --- On Fri, 9/24/10, Gary Couzens <gjco...@btinternet.com> wrote: |
|
Carol Kean
stories: // suddenly autumn, and the wind is
What the heck is the grand guignol style? Guignol. Google it, Carol:
Grand Gui·gnol (gräN g -nyôl') -- Drama that
emphasizes the horrifying or the macabre.
Guignol is the main character in a French puppet
show which has come to bear his name.
Although often thought of as children's
entertainment, Guignol's sharp wit and linguistic
verve have always been appreciated by adults as
well, as shown by the motto of a prominent Lyon
troupe: "Guignol amuses children... and witty adults".
Okay... horror stories? I never read them. To me,
real life is scary enough. Sex traffickers, and
what they do to little girls. But i'm willing to
broaden my horizons with guignol.
Carol
Oehling, Rick
Well, Max, I first thought of this wicked 4-page story from The Poisoned Kiss entitled "The Brain of Doctor Vicente." Dr Vicente's "body" died of cancer but his research team has preserved his brain in a chamber. They are trying to find his brain a new body to inhabit. But every time they propose a body to "him" (it?), Dr Vicente's brain sends out the one-word communication: "Impossible!" Only four-pages, but each sentence is deeply unsettling. It is also one of those rare ventures of Oates into science fiction or, more accurately, speculative fiction. Since I'm teaching "Wonderland" (Grand Guignol filtered through mid-century America) to college freshmen (yes, I know) I have the book on my mind all the time. And Wonderland is of course obsessed with brains and souls and their eerie relationship. So I wasn't surprised to read in the Afterword of "The Poisoned Kiss" that Oates composed the these bizarre stories while writing Wonderland, a novel she describes as "obviously the most bizarre and obsessive" of her early works. My brain hurts and says it wants to leave the building.
It seems to me in these instances that Oates' use of horror is based in part on her "tragic" view of existence, which makes her very different, I feel, from her American contemporaries who specialize in horror. Which raises the bizarre question: Is Stephen King really a comic writer? Certainly the contrived "happy" endings of some of his books suggest that death and horror can eventually be out-distanced... if you can run fast enough. Maybe that's not fair. I've only read a half dozen books by him and certainly "Carrie" (going by the film) wouldn't strike anyone as comedy. Well, maybe a Jacobean revenge comedy.
Carol, your mention of sex traffickers necessitates mention of Oates' harrowing treatment of that subject: "Doll: A Romance of the Mississippi." Merely recounting the plot of this story to my (adult) students has resulted in major trauma to all parties involved. It is in "The Female of the Species" a fairly recent collection. Trust me, you'll never get over it.
Rick
________________________________________
From: tonecl...@googlegroups.com [tonecl...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Carol Kean [kean...@inabc.net]
Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 9:27 AM
To: tonecl...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [JCO:914] what makes a great horror story?
Carol
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Carol Kean
Wonderland - I thought that was a movie about a porn star, and thugs
with pipes come in and bash skulls, with blood flying. But wait. I
thought the BOOK was about a boy who grew up to become a doctor?
Okay, so it's on my shelf but I haven't read it. And yet I buy more
books. Go figure.
Thanks,
C
Adva Weinerman
I enjoy the topic, as it gives me a little insight regarding the one thing I will never read: horror books, nor horror movies. Enough horrors in reality. I live in Israel, and we have our monthly, daily, yearly share of horrors via wars and terror (a wonderful country none the less, lest you are afraid visiting).
Could it be that those who enjoy it live in peaceful places? Just wondering. Or is it a way to deal with reality?
I am very keen to understand the psychology behind the desire to read horror books. Those of you who enjoy it, would you give me more insight into the matter? I still remember an innocent book of Agatha Christie's during adolescence and how it made me be afraid for many days, to go into a dark room. My husband tells me "it is only a movie" when I show fear or disgust... do I have too much identification sense or what?
Adva
-----Original Message-----
Jane Ward
key to his shattered identity starts in the first chapter of the
novel with his escape from the horrific and needless deaths of his
family members. Once I started on the journey with Jessee I couldn't
put the book down. I reread it years later and experienced the same.
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http://walkwithmepart2.blogspot.com/
http://eaglenature.com/
Oehling, Rick
Perhaps I shouldn't be surprised. However, my memories of first reading Wonderland in 1987 suggest I plunged through one-way it. I remember reading most of it on an overnight bus trip to DC for a March for the Homeless. Huge giant gulps of Wonderland and then the AIDS quilt and the Homeless March... back on the bus to home, my mind in a whirl. The March itself broke my heart. There were thousands of Vietnam vets standing in tight groups, watching everyone else warily. TV celebs making speeches. The vets shouting "We don't HAVE TVs!" Discord everywhere. Reminding me of the anti-war rally Helene attends in "Wonderland." However, at the AIDS quilt, no one was fist-pumping or shouting. Grieving, but there was also laughter. Made me wonder if there aren't better ways of gathering publicly and sharing feeling than rallies and protests and speechifying.
Which makes me wonder what Obama thinks of Oates. You KNOW he's read her -- probably even a lot. I'm sure he has interesting things to say about JCO but I doubt any journalist besides Bill Moyers would let him talk about literature at length.
Rick
________________________________________
From: tonecl...@googlegroups.com [tonecl...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Jane Ward [jwar...@gmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2010 8:47 AM
To: tonecl...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [JCO:918] what makes a great horror story? - Wonderland, Doll
V L Bucci
What makes it good IMO
is a.it's funny in a deadpan (pun intended) manner, and b.it satisfies--
subliminally-- my frequent & cheerful desire to strangle
somebody!! oh, and c. like most successful horror fiction, the setting is
prosaic, which tends to SCAREYA more when the bad stuff happens. 
Max Alberts
Good morning, all, especially Rick,
FEMALE OF THE SPECIES contains some terrific work, as does THE MUSEUM OF DR. MOSES. High quality speculative fiction is difficult to write. Much of it becomes unintentionally (?) funny. Consider for instance, "Murders in the Rue Morgue" by Edgar Allen Poe. (Spoiler alert.) Now, I have no idea whether or not Poe intended the story to be darkly comic (many horror stories are), but the scene in which the orangutan attempts to use a straight razor to shave himself in front of a mirror, which he has seen his sailor companion do, is vivid and hilarious. This shaving episode is in fact what sets the monkey off on his rampage. The orangutan goes on to shove an entire human body up a chimney (also to my mind, a sick but comic scene). Poe relied a great deal on irony and allegory to get his point across ("The Masque of the Red Death" combines both qualities so obviously that one knows by the first paragraph how the story will turn out.) Poe's
reputation in the canon remains consistently unsteady for these very reasons.
What's of much more interest to me are the actual facts surrounding Poe's death. Contemporary medical thinking now leans in the direction that Poe died, not of alcohol and narcotic withdrawal, but of rabies. And there's a current trade paperback called RABIES MOM (I'm not inventing this) whose daughter died of rabies due to the mother's neglect. To read about and explore the consciousness of a real human being trapped hopelessly in such a grinding predicament is chilling--and heartbreaking--as well as terrifying. (Especially if you're at all phobic.) This kind of writing does leans toward the sensational and lurid, but not gratuitously. It works.
Joyce Carol Oates writes of similar "horrors" in our everyday life. and those stories are, for me, much more frightening and unforgettable than anything that sets out in a contrived way to be scary. Go to her collection,THE WHEEL OF LOVE to find out just what I mean. There you'll find classics such as "Boy and Girl" and "Wild Saturday" which will knock you over.
By the way, I've taught college freshmen myself, Rick. It just keeps getting worse. But that's a whole other story, as they say. Good luck.
|
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|
Gordon Pryce
I was waiting for someone to mention Poe. Besides Bram Stoker’s “Dracula” and Mary Shelley’s “Frankenstein” (and Peter Benchley’s Jaws? – Naahh –) I have yet to encounter literature as unsettling as Edgar Allen Poe’s “Tell Tail Heart”, “Cask of Amontillado”, and “The Fall of the House of Usher”; especially the latter two. When the topic was first introduced by Max I thought to myself – “Horror? Have I ever read any Horror?” Then the memories came sprinkling back to me. Like Adva it’s not really my genre but since I like any lit that’s good, I’ll have to check out some more sometime.
But can anyone compare to the aforementioned works by Shelley, Stoker, and Poe? At some point I’ll have to look into it and form my own subjective opinion. Thank you Max and Rick for the recommendations.
Sincerely,
Gordon
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 09:55:54 -0700
From: maxalbe...@yahoo.com
Subject: RE: [JCO:921] what makes a great horror story?
Max Alberts
Hi, Everyone!
The late, brilliant feminist Andrea Dworkin's text, INTERCOURSE, contains a study of DRACULA which is worth the price of the volume. Dworkin's analysis is extraordinarily complex, but boils down essentially to her theory that this paticular novel is a metaphorical prophecy of rape in the 20th century, with both women AND men as pawns of the patriarchal vampyre. (Coppola's film was much more a romance of "love across the centuries" than an actual horror movie.) Off topic a bit, it seems to me that Roman Polanski is a master of the horror genre vis a vis film, and Ridly Scott had a masterpiece in the original Alien. (I had to call my therapist after seeing that film for the first time. Seriously. I sat in my bedroom and thought, how am I going to get these images out of my head and my stomach?) I'm glad I saw that film without benefit of, shall we say, mood transformers. I'd be in a mental hospital today.
|
g.p...@hotmail.com
If you'll forgive my slight digression as well, there was another novel/movie I neglected to mention and that's H.G. Wells "World of the Worlds". In this case a scarier read than major motion picture. Dracula was kind and pales in comparison to what those aliens intended for humankind.
~Gordon
Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®
Oehling, Rick
Rick
________________________________
From: tonecl...@googlegroups.com [tonecl...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of g.p...@hotmail.com [g.p...@hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, September 27, 2010 4:45 PM
To: tonecl...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [JCO:924] what makes a great horror story?
~Gordon
Hi, Everyone!
Hi Everyone,
Sincerely,
Gordon
MAX
From: tonecl...@googlegroups.com<http://us.mc657.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=tonecl...@googlegroups.com> [tonecl...@googlegroups.com<http://us.mc657.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=tonecl...@googlegroups.com>] On Behalf Of Carol Kean [kean...@inabc.net<http://us.mc657.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kean...@inabc.net>]
Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 9:27 AM
To: tonecl...@googlegroups.com<http://us.mc657.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=tonecl...@googlegroups.com>
Carol
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Carol Kean
Max, you're funny. Movies rarely get to me, though the B&W "A Night to Remember" (sinking of the Titanic) was haunting and a downer.
What gets me is my dreams. I'm still mad at my husband for a dream, 20 years ago, in which I climbed the spiral staircase of a southern mansion and found him contentedlys moking a cigar in a big bed while the hooker tried to sneak down the back staircase. How far from truth could a dream get? Wow, that one felt real.
Last night, a little 1960s boy doll from my childhood was coveted by some rich collector who kept trying to steal it. All day I have been concerned about this doll, wondering how I'd ever find another like it. I keep meaning to go look for him, in a shoe box in my closet (I think - I hope!!) but haven't had a chance. Maybe I'll find a mouse ate Marvin. Oooh.
Dreams. Way worse than movies....or novels...
Carol
g.p...@hotmail.com
And that's right they can seem way worse than movies or novels. There is nothing greater than waking up and saying, "Oh thank God that was a dream (/nightmare)!"
In any event, Carol the foregoing movie you asked about is entitled "Bram Stoker's Dracula" directed by Francis Ford Coppola, just like that. Google it and you can't miss it. As you can see, Max and I recommend it. Strongly.
Approach with an open mind because it's 'strange' and different and most of all... a love story.
Enjoy,
Gordon
Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®
Carol Kean
our dreams more?
"Black Water" (JCO's Chappaquidditch, sp, inpsired story) had a dream
like quality all throughout.
In Internet Writer's Workshop, a woman writing a vampire novel
included a dream sequence that was so beautiful, I said, "You had to
be describing a dream you actually had." Indeed, she had. It seems
writers can't seem to tap the conscious brain for anything as
surreal, profound, beautiful or moving as dream images from the dark
of night (our subconscious).
Of course I heard of (but didn't rent) Bram Stoker's Dracula. Now I
will. Thanks for the recommendation.
When is the movie version of Rape: A Love Story due out?? And how
about the Johnny Depp "Dark Shadows"--?
"Man Crazy" would be a violent, graphic film. Don't think I'd want to watch it.
Carol
Gordon Pryce
But I agree with you, they are not always unpleasant and often they are downright beautiful and exciting but dog-on-it every time I wake up with a grand tale to tell… I forget. Then I blame Freud and move on with my life. I wouldn’t be surprised if JCO sleeps with a pen and pad at the ready on her bed table. I’ll have to do that one day, SERIOUSLY.
You’re welcome on the movie recommendation (Dracula). I took yet another look at it last night for good measure. Please add the word ‘phantasmagorical’ to the list of descriptive words I used previously. And I couldn’t get Max’s comments from a prior email regarding Dracula out of my head:
“The late, brilliant feminist Andrea Dworkin's text, INTERCOURSE, contains a study of DRACULA which is worth the price of the volume. Dworkin's analysis is extraordinarily complex, but boils down essentially to her theory that this particular novel is a metaphorical prophecy of rape in the 20th century, with both women AND men as pawns of the patriarchal vampire.”
It seemed to ring of such truth to me. Dracula is just a bully that get’s what ever wants… sooner or later.
~Gordon
> Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 21:05:22 -0500
> To: tonecl...@googlegroups.com
> From: kean...@inabc.net
> Subject: [JCO:928] "Thank God it was a dream; now, to make it a novel..."
Adva Weinerman
As it happens, dreams are a topic that greatly interests me for various reasons, so much so, that during a period of my psychological studies that were also years of conflicts, on which I dreamed again and again, I created a model that is very helpful in "solving' them.
Basically, there are the creative type of people, such as writers and painters (I am both, and I have an oil which successfully depicted a picture I saw in my dream of a young mother and two children with a background of many squares each in different color) and or hysterics of any kind and those who have what is called right brain dominancy. These people are more prone to exercise less inhibitions, so they are more likely to remember their dreams, as opposed to great many who practice inhibitory mechanism, lest they get a feel of what is really going on in their minds.
Freud also said that part of our dreams are also about wishes.
Eager dreamers can learn how to remember their dreams, if anyone is interested I can tip you.
Dreams as far as my experience goes, are indeed about conflicts of any kind. Once the conflict has been resolved, the dreams would move on to other issues. I used to have two personas I would constantly dream of for many years, and they would reappear in different ways, but always in similar ways, so I knew they were representatives of those two personas. Once the conflict was solved, they simply went away to my huge relief.
I think not a few novelist dream away scenes and also incorporate dreams in their books.
Back to the topic of horror books, if you folks are afraid of nightmares, as would I, why would you read horror books that are after all night mares of sorts? I am still mystified and would like some psychological explanation.
Adva
From: tonecl...@googlegroups.com [mailto:tonecl...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Gordon Pryce
Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2010 8:06 PM
To: JCO Online Book Club
No virus
found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 9.0.856 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3164 - Release Date: 09/28/10
08:34:00
g.p...@hotmail.com
Regarding your question though, roughly, it's the catharsis we learned from Aristotle - the release of pity and fear. Horror is like tragedy in that sense. We only suffer indirectly while concurrently noting what kind of effort the artist\artists poured into the work. But again I'm just opining.
~Gordon
Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®
Caldarera, Leslie
Back to the topic of horror books, if you folks are afraid of nightmares, as would I, why would you read horror books that are after all night mares of sorts? I am still mystified and would like some psychological explanation.
For me, I think reading horror allows me to face nightmares...just one more level of understanding that the nightmares I create (which I simplistically feel are just a way to deal with anxiety) are no more real than the nightmarish books I love to read. However, I'm no expert in psychology.
Leslie Caldarera
Teacher Librarian
National Board Teacher
Edison Middle School
LAUSD
"You see, I don't believe that libraries should be drab places where people sit in silence, and that's been the main reasons for our policy of employing wild animals as librarians."
Gorilla Librarian, Monthy Python's Flying Circus
________________________________
From: tonecl...@googlegroups.com on behalf of Adva Weinerman
Sent: Tue 9/28/2010 1:31 PM
To: tonecl...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [JCO:930] "Thank God it was a dream; now, to make it a novel..."
As it happens, dreams are a topic that greatly interests me for various reasons, so much so, that during a period of my psychological studies that were also years of conflicts, on which I dreamed again and again, I created a model that is very helpful in "solving' them.
Basically, there are the creative type of people, such as writers and painters (I am both, and I have an oil which successfully depicted a picture I saw in my dream of a young mother and two children with a background of many squares each in different color) and or hysterics of any kind and those who have what is called right brain dominancy. These people are more prone to exercise less inhibitions, so they are more likely to remember their dreams, as opposed to great many who practice inhibitory mechanism, lest they get a feel of what is really going on in their minds.
Freud also said that part of our dreams are also about wishes.
Eager dreamers can learn how to remember their dreams, if anyone is interested I can tip you.
Dreams as far as my experience goes, are indeed about conflicts of any kind. Once the conflict has been resolved, the dreams would move on to other issues. I used to have two personas I would constantly dream of for many years, and they would reappear in different ways, but always in similar ways, so I knew they were representatives of those two personas. Once the conflict was solved, they simply went away to my huge relief.
I think not a few novelist dream away scenes and also incorporate dreams in their books.
Back to the topic of horror books, if you folks are afraid of nightmares, as would I, why would you read horror books that are after all night mares of sorts? I am still mystified and would like some psychological explanation.
Adva
From: tonecl...@googlegroups.com [mailto:tonecl...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Gordon Pryce
Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2010 8:06 PM
To: JCO Online Book Club
Subject: RE: [JCO:0] "Thank God it was a dream; now, to make it a novel..."
Carol I would have to dig up my undergrad research paper on dreams to provide more concrete specifics but out of the three I recall two: Prophecy or "Daily Residues" as Freud termed it. I used Freud's "The Interpretation of Dreams" as not my sole but main resource. According to my vague recollection of his theory we experience numerous conflicts throughout the days of our lives and at some-point I imagine some of those conflicts come to a head and get dealt with during our delta sleep (deep sleep) by any means of the "Dreamwork". That's what makes some dreams so strong while they're happening but so disturbing at the same time that they are rendered easy to forget. He believed that we aimed to resolve the conflicts and then quickly put them behind us. This is just one spin on many theories put forth by both by he and other theorist.
But I agree with you, they are not always unpleasant and often they are downright beautiful and exciting but dog-on-it every time I wake up with a grand tale to tell... I forget. Then I blame Freud and move on with my life. I wouldn't be surprised if JCO sleeps with a pen and pad at the ready on her bed table. I'll have to do that one day, SERIOUSLY.
You're welcome on the movie recommendation (Dracula). I took yet another look at it last night for good measure. Please add the word 'phantasmagorical' to the list of descriptive words I used previously. And I couldn't get Max's comments from a prior email regarding Dracula out of my head:
"The late, brilliant feminist Andrea Dworkin's text, INTERCOURSE, contains a study of DRACULA which is worth the price of the volume. Dworkin's analysis is extraordinarily complex, but boils down essentially to her theory that this particular novel is a metaphorical prophecy of rape in the 20th century, with both women AND men as pawns of the patriarchal vampire."
It seemed to ring of such truth to me. Dracula is just a bully that get's what ever wants... sooner or later.
Caldarera, Leslie
Thanks!
Leslie Caldarera
Teacher Librarian
National Board Teacher
Edison Middle School
LAUSD
"You see, I don't believe that libraries should be drab places where people sit in silence, and that's been the main reasons for our policy of employing wild animals as librarians."
Gorilla Librarian, Monthy Python's Flying Circus
________________________________
From: tonecl...@googlegroups.com on behalf of g.p...@hotmail.com
Sent: Tue 9/28/2010 4:11 PM
To: tonecl...@googlegroups.com
~Gordon
________________________________
Adva
But I agree with you, they are not always unpleasant and often they are downright beautiful and exciting but dog-on-it every time I wake up with a grand tale to tell... I forget. Then I blame Freud and move on with my life. I wouldn't be surprised if JCO sleeps with a pen and pad at the ready on her bed table. I'll have to do that one day, SERIOUSLY.
You're welcome on the movie recommendation (Dracula). I took yet another look at it last night for good measure. Please add the word 'phantasmagorical' to the list of descriptive words I used previously. And I couldn't get Max's comments from a prior email regarding Dracula out of my head:
"The late, brilliant feminist Andrea Dworkin's text, INTERCOURSE, contains a study of DRACULA which is worth the price of the volume. Dworkin's analysis is extraordinarily complex, but boils down essentially to her theory that this particular novel is a metaphorical prophecy of rape in the 20th century, with both women AND men as pawns of the patriarchal vampire."
It seemed to ring of such truth to me. Dracula is just a bully that get's what ever wants... sooner or later.
Caldarera, Leslie
Leslie Caldarera
Teacher Librarian
National Board Teacher
Edison Middle School
LAUSD
"You see, I don't believe that libraries should be drab places where people sit in silence, and that's been the main reasons for our policy of employing wild animals as librarians."
Gorilla Librarian, Monthy Python's Flying Circus
________________________________
Oehling, Rick
HOWEVER, I just had occasion to reread pages 27 and 28 of "My Sister, My Love" where Skyler breaks down in Pastor Bob's arms. Not only was I crying my eyes out, it was that kind of out-of-control bawling that racks one's being... but still one icy-hearted part of you thinks "Thank God no one's here to see this!"
JCO really does do it all, doesn't she?
Rick (the now soggy)
________________________________________
From: tonecl...@googlegroups.com [tonecl...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of g.p...@hotmail.com [g.p...@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2010 6:11 PM
To: tonecl...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [JCO:931] "Thank God it was a dream; now, to make it a novel..."
Max Alberts
Good morning everyone,
It seems to me that horror stories need not always entertain a supernatural aspect, (One can look at Oates's oeuvre and find dread and horror everywhere in naturalistic settings, and in my opinion that is where her work is strongest. For instance, in the story "By the River," a tale of a young woman who returns to her small home town to visit her father--after having left that town because of its suffocating nature--the woman and her father take a walk along the river and begin to discuss their personal conflicts. The story climaxes in a savage stabbing of the woman by her father, and she scarcely has time to see the knife blade glinting in the sun at it pierces her chest. The father is utterly deranged, and the woman had counted on, or had simply assumed, his sanity. A masterpiece.) I'm less interested in the construction of alternate universes (as in Lovecraft) than I am in the one in which our species currently resides, horrors and
all.
My agent (who has commercial as well as literary considerations) is of the opinion that the most successful horror stories are those that skirt the line between the natural and the supernatural; in other words, stories whose endings that leave the reader wondering what just happened. Those stories are, to my way of thinking, the most difficult to write successfully. The Oates collection, NIGHTSIDE,
--- On Tue, 9/28/10, Caldarera, Leslie <leslie.c...@lausd.net> wrote: |
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Max Alberts
(Sorry,hiI hit the send button accidentally)
The Oates collection, NIGHTSIDE, succeeeds brilliantly in this regard, I think. |
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Caldarera, Leslie
Max,
What anthology/collection includes "By the River".
And, thank you for your thoughtful reply. I will reevaluate my definition of horror for my students.
Leslie Caldarera
Teacher Librarian
National Board Teacher
Edison Middle School
LAUSD
"You see, I don't believe that libraries should be drab places where people sit in silence, and that's been the main reasons for our policy of employing wild animals as librarians."
Gorilla Librarian, Monthy Python's Flying Circus
________________________________
~Gordon
________________________________
Adva
~Gordon
> toneclusters...@googlegroups.com
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Adva Weinerman
relating would be that people have the need to repeat past hurts, similarly
to how when we are wounded, we like to scratch the place and pill off the
crusted skin.
Another similar way is of how the bad personas in JCO for instance, who
commit crimes, are doing so because most likely, had she written their bio,
she would very likely describe someone who has been hurt in the very same
way he now inflicts his own unhealed wounds onto his prey.
And yet another possibility regarding yourself and others maybe too, is
similar to the cognitive / behavioral psychology and the technique of
solving phobias and deep anxieties, by exposing the patient to the very
thing that scars him to death.
I remember two cases as a young girl, one in which I ran away from a film
shown outside during summer on a huge screen of Tarzan where there was
something really scary, and I was the only one (must have been 11 years old)
who ran away "from the scene". Another was being unable to see those scull
thing with two bones crossed displayed on electricity poles to make sure no
one touches them. That was a result of the most horrific film I ever seen,
in black and white, same age period, of a doctor who comes to a remote
village to give help because of a plague, only to find that everyone died
and the remaining living things were the village dogs who started running
after him in order to eat him. That really scared me. So much so, that I
have never exposed myself to any horror film, nor book ever since. And that
is why I am wondering of the ability to actually enjoy such stuff.
Thanks for listening, Adva
בברכה, אדוה
050-2508617
09-7442327
Adva Weinerman
Gordon – glad I reminded you of long lost knowledge. That happens as one ages, although you may still be just a young shoot. I find myself forgetting even the bible stories… but since our life is so hectic, I imagine them – at least mine, to a jam traffic, each day I have to give attention to a lot of new stuff due to my work and writing. So the old knowledge is pushed away.
The idea of catharsis makes sense, but not for me personally. my identification and empathy toward and with the characters in movies is probably on a larger scale than usual, and anything bad that happens to them, makes m cringe, cry sometimes or feel fear. Maybe those who enjoy the horror movies, have thicker skins. Maybe it is also more a male thing?
Psychology is something I can discuss endlessly… nice to see that you care of that topic too.
Being a writer myself, I learned to realize that no matter how one may push away his biographical details, the materials from which the writing is done, are all the building blocks of the writer's psych, experiences, tendencies and nature. That is why JCO interests me. She led very routine kind of life, but still has so much going on within her that is the "building stones" of her own life as well as her writing. No one writes out of vacuum.
Kind regards, Adva
בברכה, אדוה
050-2508617
09-7442327
From: tonecl...@googlegroups.com [mailto:tonecl...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of g.p...@hotmail.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2010 1:11 AM
To: tonecl...@googlegroups.com
Oehling, Rick
Rick
________________________________________
From: tonecl...@googlegroups.com [tonecl...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Max Alberts [maxalbe...@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2010 9:25 AM
To: tonecl...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [JCO:937] Definition of Horror
(Sorry,hiI hit the send button accidentally)
The Oates collection, NIGHTSIDE, succeeeds brilliantly in this regard, I think.
--- On Tue, 9/28/10, Caldarera, Leslie <leslie.c...@lausd.net> wrote:
From: Caldarera, Leslie <leslie.c...@lausd.net>
Subject: [JCO:933] Definition of Horror
To: tonecl...@googlegroups.com, tonecl...@googlegroups.com
Date: Tuesday, September 28, 2010, 6:37 PM
On another subject, I am about to begin my "scary stories" in my middle school library. Students from classes from out my school come to see me dress up in different costumes and try to scare them with folktales and urban legends. (Why I and so many others enjoy costumes is another topic altogether.) I am always surprised at the popularity of this event, as the kids hear the same stories every year. This love of the being scared for entertainment starts early. In order to make this more of an "educational" lesson last year I defined for my students what I felt were the different and common characteristics between urban legends and folktales, and I was wondering, as far as the genre of horror goes, how do you all define it? Do you feel it generally includes the supernatural? Not that it is terribly important to have a definitive definition, but I would enjoy hearing what my literary JCO experts think.
Thanks!
Leslie Caldarera
Teacher Librarian
National Board Teacher
Edison Middle School
LAUSD
"You see, I don't believe that libraries should be drab places where people sit in silence, and that's been the main reasons for our policy of employing wild animals as librarians."
Gorilla Librarian, Monthy Python's Flying Circus
________________________________
From: tonecl...@googlegroups.com<http://us.mc657.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=tonecl...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of g.p...@hotmail.com<http://us.mc657.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=g.p...@hotmail.com>
Sent: Tue 9/28/2010 4:11 PM
To: tonecl...@googlegroups.com<http://us.mc657.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=tonecl...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [JCO:931] "Thank God it was a dream; now, to make it a novel..."
Yes Adva!!! The third factor is wishes! I've been racking my brain for years on that instead of digging up that research paper. Thank you for that and your discourse. Perhaps you and I should consider corresponding and psychobabbling each other to death on day :) But seriously I've studied and worked in the Psychology field myself so I love it and can identify with you.
Regarding your question though, roughly, it's the catharsis we learned from Aristotle - the release of pity and fear. Horror is like tragedy in that sense. We only suffer indirectly while concurrently noting what kind of effort the artist\artists poured into the work. But again I'm just opining.
~Gordon
Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®
________________________________
From: Adva Weinerman <adva...@netvision.net.il<http://us.mc657.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=adva...@netvision.net.il>>
Sender: tonecl...@googlegroups.com<http://us.mc657.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=tonecl...@googlegroups.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 22:31:11 +0200
To: <tonecl...@googlegroups.com<http://us.mc657.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=tonecl...@googlegroups.com>>
ReplyTo: tonecl...@googlegroups.com<http://us.mc657.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=tonecl...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: RE: [JCO:930] "Thank God it was a dream; now, to make it a novel..."
As it happens, dreams are a topic that greatly interests me for various reasons, so much so, that during a period of my psychological studies that were also years of conflicts, on which I dreamed again and again, I created a model that is very helpful in "solving' them.
Basically, there are the creative type of people, such as writers and painters (I am both, and I have an oil which successfully depicted a picture I saw in my dream of a young mother and two children with a background of many squares each in different color) and or hysterics of any kind and those who have what is called right brain dominancy. These people are more prone to exercise less inhibitions, so they are more likely to remember their dreams, as opposed to great many who practice inhibitory mechanism, lest they get a feel of what is really going on in their minds.
Freud also said that part of our dreams are also about wishes.
Eager dreamers can learn how to remember their dreams, if anyone is interested I can tip you.
Dreams as far as my experience goes, are indeed about conflicts of any kind. Once the conflict has been resolved, the dreams would move on to other issues. I used to have two personas I would constantly dream of for many years, and they would reappear in different ways, but always in similar ways, so I knew they were representatives of those two personas. Once the conflict was solved, they simply went away to my huge relief.
I think not a few novelist dream away scenes and also incorporate dreams in their books.
Back to the topic of horror books, if you folks are afraid of nightmares, as would I, why would you read horror books that are after all night mares of sorts? I am still mystified and would like some psychological explanation.
Adva
From: tonecl...@googlegroups.com<http://us.mc657.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=tonecl...@googlegroups.com> [mailto:tonecl...@googlegroups.com<http://us.mc657.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=tonecl...@googlegroups.com>] On Behalf Of Gordon Pryce
Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2010 8:06 PM
To: JCO Online Book Club
Subject: RE: [JCO:0] "Thank God it was a dream; now, to make it a novel..."
Carol I would have to dig up my undergrad research paper on dreams to provide more concrete specifics but out of the three I recall two: Prophecy or "Daily Residues" as Freud termed it. I used Freud's "The Interpretation of Dreams" as not my sole but main resource. According to my vague recollection of his theory we experience numerous conflicts throughout the days of our lives and at some-point I imagine some of those conflicts come to a head and get dealt with during our delta sleep (deep sleep) by any means of the "Dreamwork". That's what makes some dreams so strong while they're happening but so disturbing at the same time that they are rendered easy to forget. He believed that we aimed to resolve the conflicts and then quickly put them behind us. This is just one spin on many theories put forth by both by he and other theorist.
But I agree with you, they are not always unpleasant and often they are downright beautiful and exciting but dog-on-it every time I wake up with a grand tale to tell... I forget. Then I blame Freud and move on with my life. I wouldn't be surprised if JCO sleeps with a pen and pad at the ready on her bed table. I'll have to do that one day, SERIOUSLY.
You're welcome on the movie recommendation (Dracula). I took yet another look at it last night for good measure. Please add the word 'phantasmagorical' to the list of descriptive words I used previously. And I couldn't get Max's comments from a prior email regarding Dracula out of my head:
"The late, brilliant feminist Andrea Dworkin's text, INTERCOURSE, contains a study of DRACULA which is worth the price of the volume. Dworkin's analysis is extraordinarily complex, but boils down essentially to her theory that this particular novel is a metaphorical prophecy of rape in the 20th century, with both women AND men as pawns of the patriarchal vampire."
It seemed to ring of such truth to me. Dracula is just a bully that get's what ever wants... sooner or later.
~Gordon
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Max Alberts
By the River is in the collection, MARRIAGES AND INFIDELITIES.
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Max Alberts
Vladimir Petrovich Demikhov (Kulini Farm, July 18, 1916 - Moscow, November 22, 1998) was a Soviet scientist and organ transplant pioneer, who did several transplantations in the 1930s and 1950s, such as the transplantation of a heart into an animal and a lung-heart replacement in an animal. He is also well-known for his transplantation of the heads of
dogs[1]'[2]. He conducted his dog head transplants during the 1950s, resulting in two-headed dogs, and this ultimately led to the head transplants in monkeys by Dr. Robert White, who was inspired by Demikhov's work.
The first head transplant was actually done by Professor A. G. Konevskiy[2] of the Operative Surgery and Topographical Anatomy Department of Volgograd State Medical University. The head transplant wasn't planned. Konevskiy had planned an experimental heart transplant but the puppy was involved in an automobile accident. Not wanting to "waste the sterilized operating table", the surgeon proceeded with the head transplant.
Demikhov coined the word transplantology, and his 1960 monograph "Experimental transplantation of vital organs", for which he received his doctoral degree, later published in 1962 in New York, Berlin and Madrid, became the world's first monograph on transplantology, and was for a long time the only monograph in the field of transplantation of organs and tissues. Christiaan Barnard, who has performed the world's first heart transplant operation from one person to another person in 1967, has twice visited the Demikhov's laboratory in 1960 and 1963. Christiaan Barnard through all his life considered Demikhov as his teacher.
Demikhov died in obscurity in 1998, but was awarded the Order "For Services Rendered to the Country", Third Class, shortly before his death.
In 2008, Oddzar released a song entitled "Dogs of Demikhov." |
--- On Wed, 9/29/10, Oehling, Rick <oehl...@uww.edu> wrote: |
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susan masztak
http://groups.google.com/group/toneclusters?hl=en<winmail.dat>