American English

[sttropez]

Americans are insular.

I live in an ivy league town where the average resident is well
eduacated, but even so, with degrees, or in many cases advanced
degrees, they are in the dark when it comes to world travel. I read
somewhere once, "Don't tell me what degrees you have, tell me how much
you have traveled."

Only 12% of Americans have passports; that says it all.

In regard to American English, it's pretty much diluted compared to
the UK; there's no comparison, and it's not music to the ears to hear
American accents.

[pamela sloan]

You have an interesting perspective, but it differs from my own.  I work in the realm of the US defense community, in which both civilian and military professionals travel consistently.  Not only do we travel far and wide, we LIVE in foreign countries for longer periods of time than a two-week  summer vacation.  Not only do we live in countries all around the globe, we interact with our professional counterparts, become friends with neighbors, travel in these countries to gain a greater understanding for local differences. Even interaction with consequential strangers" enriches our lives and provides us a greater understanding of their cultures, social habits, likes and dislikes, etc.    As far as the issue of living in an ivy league town, my experience also was quite different.  I grew up in an academic town, Berkeley California.  Both my father and grandfather taught at the University in scientific fields.  Both traveled to a number of countries for reserach as well as for pleasure.  My father worked in the Soviet Union and traveled all over Eastern Europe.  My grandfather traveled to Europe working as a biochemist.  Consistently we had interaction with foreign students, who visited my grandparents and parents on a regular basis.  Again, in my world, I was encouraged to study foreign languages, history and cultures.  The more you learn about other parts of the world growing up, the more likely you will be to explore those countries as an adult.    Maybe my experience is unique compared with most Americans.   Nevertheless, there is a tendency among some Europeans to tag Americans as provincial, unsophisticated, not well-traveled, etc.  And that simply is not the case with most of my American friends and colleagues.   --- On Thu, 3/9/09, sttropez <susanf...@aol.com> wrote:

[Jane Ward]

Luckily for us (readers), JCO writes about all classes and experiences.

Jane

--
Jane Ward
Peoria, Illinois
http://walkwithmepart2.blogspot.com/

[adva1]

Hi all, my own experience with Americans is that they are open minded much
more than European though in another manner. While it is somewhat true that
many American do not have second language which prevents them from getting
more intimately into other culture, they more accepting and have less
prejudices toward others nowadays and are not anti-Semitic (for instance as
a rule), and accept into them all other people not from the States. While
Norwegians and Swedes show a great tendency for anti-Semitism and anti
Israeli notions without having enough background to be good judges of
reality. So I would prefer any day open mindedness of the Americans over the
so called cultural (books, music) open mindedness of the European.
Furthermore, America is a melting pot of almost all nationalities and as
such are more likely to get to know other cultures through everyday contact.

JCO has a varied blood so to speak running through her blood, only recently
she also discovered her Jewish roots. Perhaps those of you who read more
books than I, could discuss her preoccupation with Jewish characters.

Adva

[Carol Kean]

Thank you for this, Adva. My sister lives in Germany and will "never
again" return to America to live. We grew up on a farm in the Midwest
but she has a long list of things to hate about Americans, esp the
pudgy, out-of-shape, uninformed, provincial variety.

We grew up side by side in the same house, yet I have a great love of
America, esp the Old West and Native Am's, the frontier, the great
wide open spaces, and the open character of the people. Henry James
was wonderful at contrasting naive, cheerful, enthusiastic,
open-minded Am's with the jaded, sophisticated, manipulative, etc Old
World characters that played his villains so well. (Portrait of a
Lady is the masterpiece for that theme.)

JCO didn't do the comparison - contrast thing like he did, indeed,
I'm not familiar with her portrayal of Europeans at all, but she is
splendid at depicting small minded small-town ignorance. "We were the
Mulvaneys" is almost THE "Great Am Novel" when it comes to that....

Anyway, I feel humbled and embarrassed by the worldly sophistication
of Europeans, and their general knowledge of current affairs, but at
the same time, I don't envy them the stuffy, stifling traditions and
cultural restraints, at least, the way Am's love to portray them
--Hollywood loves to exploit the theme of American hick in Europe
teaching the old ice cubes how to lighten up.

But the Am. cowboy, the Native Am's, the frontier, the open
doors....I'll defend this country against any sneering condemnation
from "Old World" superiority.

Carol

[Virginia Bucci]

Hi all, my own experience with Americans is that they are open minded much
>more than European though in another manner. While it is somewhat true that
>many American do not have second language which prevents them from getting
>more intimately into other culture, they more accepting and have less
>prejudices toward others nowadays and are not anti-Semitic (for instance as
>a rule), and accept into them all other people not from the States. While
>Norwegians and Swedes show a great tendency for anti-Semitism and anti
>Israeli notions without having enough background to be good judges of
>reality. So I would prefer any day open mindedness of the Americans over
>the
>so called cultural (books, music) open mindedness of the European.
>Furthermore, America is a melting pot of almost all nationalities and as
>such are more likely to get to know other cultures through everyday
>contact.

[Lennart Frimodig]

To make a wild guess. I think the main story is that us europeeans envy your resources.

Bush was correct about the threat of Saddam Hussain, he was basically correct about Afghanistan. But, the way he carried it out was a disaster. He makes you look stupid.

I wonder about the learning from experience kind of thing. What did US learn from the Vietnam experience? Bay of pigs?
Do the administration learn anything? Learning by mistakes?

It is refreshing to read Joyce Carols diaries, she is exactly like one of us. She is like a bridge between US and Europe. She belongs to both of us.

Lennart Frimodig

________________________________

[adva1]

Lennart, you are playing here the holier than thou and I feel bad for our
American friends who are the main participants on this list, as I feel bad
for myself ever since you joined this group.



I have come across people like you in almost every list or group I ever
participated. When I see someone who is allegedly very smart, yet keeps
sending out half truths that parade as truths, I become very, very uneasy
though luckily, I, at least recognize "it" and stop taking the person
seriously. Every sentence you say is built of half truth or of thesis and
anti thesis and I am sure you are not even aware of it. But I am.



Again, you blame the United States for wrong doing, but soon ironically, and
I will be gloating, your country will be suffused beyond recognition by the
Moslems and you will understand a thing or two. This reminds me of your
fellow Germans who sent away JCO's ancestor, who sent away my father, who
killed my grandmother, who ousted the Jews, received an interesting
replacement of the Turks.



I hope not to be tempted to say something in your regard and hope that the
others on this list will see you for who you are and move onward, though you
do make a lively overall chat no doubt.



One last thing for the rest of you, I think Lennart, could be a very
interesting character in one of JCO's books. Sorry for that mail, but I
could not hold my rising anger anymore. But how JCO like this interaction
is.



Best to all, Adva

-----Original Message-----
From: Lennart Frimodig [mailto:tonecl...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of
Lennart Frimodig
Sent: Friday, September 04, 2009 7:40 PM
To: tonecl...@googlegroups.com
Subject: SV: [JCO:443] Re: American English



To make a wild guess. I think the main story is that us europeeans envy your
resources.



Bush was correct about the threat of Saddam Hussain, he was basically
correct about Afghanistan. But, the way he carried it out was a disaster. He
makes you look stupid.



I wonder about the learning from experience kind of thing. What did US learn
from the Vietnam experience? Bay of pigs?

Do the administration learn anything? Learning by mistakes?



It is refreshing to read Joyce Carols diaries, she is exactly like one of
us. She is like a bridge between US and Europe. She belongs to both of us.



Lennart Frimodig



_____

[Lennart Frimodig]

I am impressed, you know a lot about me. It is ok. You have met my kind before.

My country will be suffosed beyond recognition by the moslems. No. Mostly they adjust ok.

I decide to forgive you because you are a jew. I know it is wrong, but fuck. When I was 22 years old I took my fiancee to Auschwitz to experience the real evil. We slept in the SS barrack. None of you have done that. It is ok. It was a communist dictatorshipt then. It was very upsetting. I read everything, I saw every documentary, I felt I was to blame as a stupid white european. We let that happen. By and by I understood my place in the story.

With a lot of effort I can understand that you show your soul here. I am very bad at emphasizing. To me it is all an intellectual problem. Who is right, who makes rational points?
Since I am 65 I have been forced to learn how normal people functions.

I am not to be blamed for the killing of jews, including your ancestors. Me and my forefathers had nothing to do with that.

Ok, I forgive you.

I respect your emotional commitment, but I really don´t understand.

I don´t understand why I provoked all this. You seem like a nice person.

This is really unexpected, to me. But it is a learning experience.

Lennart Frimodig

________________________________

Från: tonecl...@googlegroups.com genom adva1
Skickat: fr 2009-09-04 21:35
Till: tonecl...@googlegroups.com
Ämne: [JCO:459] Re: American English



Lennart, you are playing here the holier than thou and I feel bad for our American friends who are the main participants on this list, as I feel bad for myself ever since you joined this group.



I have come across people like you in almost every list or group I ever participated. When I see someone who is allegedly very smart, yet keeps sending out half truths that parade as truths, I become very, very uneasy though luckily, I, at least recognize "it" and stop taking the person seriously. Every sentence you say is built of half truth or of thesis and anti thesis and I am sure you are not even aware of it. But I am.



Again, you blame the United States for wrong doing, but soon ironically, and I will be gloating, your country will be suffused beyond recognition by the Moslems and you will understand a thing or two. This reminds me of your fellow Germans who sent away JCO's ancestor, who sent away my father, who killed my grandmother, who ousted the Jews, received an interesting replacement of the Turks.



I hope not to be tempted to say something in your regard and hope that the others on this list will see you for who you are and move onward, though you do make a lively overall chat no doubt.



One last thing for the rest of you, I think Lennart, could be a very interesting character in one of JCO's books. Sorry for that mail, but I could not hold my rising anger anymore. But how JCO like this interaction is.



Best to all, Adva





-----Original Message-----
From: Lennart Frimodig [mailto:tonecl...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Lennart Frimodig
Sent: Friday, September 04, 2009 7:40 PM
To: tonecl...@googlegroups.com
Subject: SV: [JCO:443] Re: American English



To make a wild guess. I think the main story is that us europeeans envy your resources.



Bush was correct about the threat of Saddam Hussain, he was basically correct about Afghanistan. But, the way he carried it out was a disaster. He makes you look stupid.



I wonder about the learning from experience kind of thing. What did US learn from the Vietnam experience? Bay of pigs?

Do the administration learn anything? Learning by mistakes?



It is refreshing to read Joyce Carols diaries, she is exactly like one of us. She is like a bridge between US and Europe. She belongs to both of us.



Lennart Frimodig

________________________________

[Lennart Frimodig]

I think you are overly self-critical. Faulkner south is very interesting.
I love deep south blues. The real thing.
You have the best universities in the world. Very irritating.
It is impossible to understand why your politicians don´t learn from your best people. Never.
You are basically ok, since you are a democracy.
You are a continent, most of you don´t think they need the rest of us, it is ok. They are simply not interested.
Lennart Frimodig



________________________________

[Jane Ward]

I don't disagree with you about Americans. We have been making
sweeping generalizations, myself included, but I find it difficult to
express myself otherwise. Joyce Carol Oates finds many interesting
Americans to write about. I enjoyed The Gravedigger's Daughter and her
portrayal of the immigrants too. I think she gets people, of all
types. I have not read the entire journal, but the first part was
fascinating.

[Jane Ward]

I could be wrong, but I think you misunderstand Lennart. I think he is
actually trying to have a conversation.

Jane

[Lennart Frimodig]

What are your sources for the swedish antisemitism?

And a completely different matter: being very critical of Israel policy. Especially occupation and settlers. Really evil phenomenon, in my eyes. Objective evil things. If you defend that, you belong to another context.

I am very critical because Israel is a democracy. It is meaningful to express criticism by ordinary people.

It is ok.

Lennart Frimodig

________________________________

[Lennart Frimodig]

It becomes very complicated when people defend me. It feels all weird.
I feel comfortable when I am all alone in my views. Other people are like trees.
Jane seems unnaturally tolerant. She is problably like a saint.

Some ordinary people are like that. They just do the good thing, very annoying.

Lennart Frimodig

________________________________

[Jakon Hays]

Concerning Lennart:

Quite an interesting character.  He seems to be active on several listserv groups where he contributes to conversations.  He has an active blog (in Swedish) where he gives his opinion on a variety of subjects.  He describes himself in his profile...honestly I think.  Use Google translate to read his Swedish pages.  

Even though he has used language here in this group that some of us find offensive, he has done a good job of getting some interaction going...thoughts, opinions.

I think that we must also consider that he is writing in English...probably his second language.  He may be coming off "harsh" to us. 

When I travel, and engage in conversation with non native English speakers...who love to have the chance to practice their English with a native speaker, slang and vulgar words always make their way into conversation.  Some of these folks are mimicking the language they hear in our American movies...honestly they don't know any better.

So Lennart:  I think you mean well.  I think that we are going to learn some interesting opinions from you.  I welcome your thoughts in this group.

I don't think Lennart has crossed the line yet...but I am sure the moderator will make a wise decision when he feels that line has been crossed.

[Lennart Frimodig]

Yeah, she mainly teach you about yourself. She has this gift.
I am consumed by the diaries. And I am starting to read white girl/black girl in swedish.

She was an anorechtic in her early 30íes. I don´t know how to relate to that.

Lennart Frimodig

________________________________

Från: tonecl...@googlegroups.com genom Jane Ward

[Marie Kabala-Rejment]

Personally I think it's a shame that so many people have left this group
because you, Jane, have encouraged this strange man. Why do you find him so
fascinating, I wonder.
Marie

[Jane Ward]

Lennart, I am no saint, believe me. I am amused by the conversations.
I have never been called ordinary before, if that is what you meant.
I didn't want Adva to feel so bad about our conversations. I was not
defending your views. I'm not sure what they are.

Jane

[Lennart Frimodig]

Randy Souther don´t like this. It is not about Joyce Carol.

Lennart Frimodig



________________________________

[Lennart Frimodig]

I don´t like Randy Souther, so I leave this group.

[Oehling, Rick]

which just makes me like Randy all the more!
Rick
________________________________________
From: tonecl...@googlegroups.com [tonecl...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Lennart Frimodig [Lennart....@integra-ab.se]
Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2009 5:33 PM
To: tonecl...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [JCO:533] By

[Jakon Hays]

2nd!

[Eric Anderson]

Randy Souther has devoted countless hours to creating an amazingly comprehensive and well-maintained website devoted to Oates' work. He inspired her to revise and publish one of her greatest novels, My Heart Laid Bare.
 
Furthermore, a moderator is essential for any online forum to function properly - particularly when it is an email discussion group like this. It's important to stay on topic or our inboxes will be filled with material we're not necessarily interested in.
 
He deserves nothing but our respect.
Eric
 

---

Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2009 06:32:19 -0400
Subject: [JCO:535] Re: By
From: jako...@gmail.com
To: tonecl...@googlegroups.com

[adva1]

Indeed.

 

Adva

</html

[Jane Ward]

Eric, you described Randy Souther exactly as I think of him. He
deserves our respect and our gratitude.

Jane