Where Have the People Gone?
Ted/Edwin/Eadwine/Herendil
topics. The other two posters have only made a few one line replies
each. I've been talking to myself!
I'm reading Tom Robbins and about to read Marisha Pessl. Does anyone
care?
Marayong
Well I'm here ... for what that's worth. :)
> So far this month only three people have posted here and on only two
> topics. The other two posters have only made a few one line replies
> each. I've been talking to myself!
Well sometimes that's the only way to have an intelligent conversation! *g*
> I'm reading Tom Robbins and about to read Marisha Pessl. Does anyone
> care?
Tom Robbin's I've heard of ... but who's Marisha Pessl? What's she write?
cheers,
David
PS This is a bit more than one line. :)
--
Australian Linedance website of the year: Tamworth 2005,2007,2008
http://roots-boots.net mailto:dra...@roots-boots.net
The greatest tragedy that could overcome a country would be for it
to fight a successful war in defence of liberty and to lose its
own liberty in the process" - Robert Menzies
Michael
airports) but just haven't had much time to post. I was so intrigued
by your post on 'The Cruelist Miles' that I ordered a copy myself, if
for no other reason than it's a story about dogs.
I'm with David on Pessl - no idea.
I've just started reading Lyonesse by Jack Vance. I'm guessing that a
few of you have probably read this before.
Marayong
> I've just started reading Lyonesse by Jack Vance. I'm guessing that a
> few of you have probably read this before.
I've read several books over the years by that name ... how old is this one?
cheers,
David
Ted/Edwin/Eadwine/Herendil
>
> Well I'm here ... for what that's worth. :)
about our esteemed leader though.
> > So far this month only three people have posted here and on only two
> > topics. The other two posters have only made a few one line replies
> > each. I've been talking to myself!
>
> Well sometimes that's the only way to have an intelligent conversation! *g*
> > I'm reading Tom Robbins and about to read Marisha Pessl. Does anyone
> > care?
>
> Tom Robbin's I've heard of ... but who's Marisha Pessl? What's she write?
Calamity Physics". I can tell you no more as yet. Still reading
Robbins' "Wild Ducks Flying Backward", a collection of short writings
(in contrast to his eight novels).
> cheers,
> David
>
> PS This is a bit more than one line. :)
> --
> Australian Linedance website of the year: Tamworth 2005,2007,2008
> http://roots-boots.net mailto:dra...@roots-boots.net
> The greatest tragedy that could overcome a country would be for it
> to fight a successful war in defence of liberty and to lose its
> own liberty in the process" - Robert Menzies
Ted/Edwin/Eadwine/Herendil
Obviously you don't do line dancing <smirk>.
>I've been reading all the posts (mostly at
> airports) but just haven't had much time to post. I was so intrigued
> by your post on 'The Cruelist Miles' that I ordered a copy myself, if
> for no other reason than it's a story about dogs.
clear, and a very engrossing, though not always pleasant, read. I hope
you are suitably edified by it (I won't wish you unqualified enjoyment
- I don't think it fits that image).
> I'm with David on Pessl - no idea.
> I've just started reading Lyonesse by Jack Vance. I'm guessing that a
> few of you have probably read this before.
Presumably it didn't arouse much interest with me.
> On Apr 20, 4:34 pm, Marayong <dra...@roots-boots.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > G'day Ted,
>
> > Well I'm here ... for what that's worth. :)
>
> > > So far this month only three people have posted here and on only two
> > > topics. The other two posters have only made a few one line replies
> > > each. I've been talking to myself!
>
> > Well sometimes that's the only way to have an intelligent conversation! *g*
>
> > > I'm reading Tom Robbins and about to read Marisha Pessl. Does anyone
> > > care?
>
> > Tom Robbin's I've heard of ... but who's Marisha Pessl? What's she write?
>
> > cheers,
> > David
>
> > PS This is a bit more than one line. :)
> > --
> > Australian Linedance website of the year: Tamworth 2005,2007,2008
> > http://roots-boots.net mailto:dra...@roots-boots.net
> > The greatest tragedy that could overcome a country would be for it
> > to fight a successful war in defence of liberty and to lose its
>
> - Show quoted text -
Marayong
>> Well I'm here ... for what that's worth. :)
>
> Your presence was never in question, David. I was beginning to wonder
> about our esteemed leader though.
Well good to hear rumours of my demise have been exaggerated .. to
paraphrase mark Twain. :)
Hmm... spell check did not like that at all .. I'd updated to the latest
release which of course means I have to reinstall the Aussie dictionary.
Done ... and all thee read lions have gone. :)
>> Tom Robbin's I've heard of ... but who's Marisha Pessl? What's she write?
>
> So far, only one published book. It's called "Special Topics in
> Calamity Physics". I can tell you no more as yet. Still reading
> Robbins' "Wild Ducks Flying Backward", a collection of short writings
> (in contrast to his eight novels).
Aha ... a rather diverse range of reading material then. Is Pessl's book
an academic monograph or a lay person's book on the topic? Calamity
Physics is a tad high brow after all and your speciality was piscatology
(sic) rather than theoretical physics.
> Yes. Your sig alone is five lines :)
But it's one line shorter than the googlegroups insert. :)
cheers,
David
Elise
Please forgive my absence. I have just completed the Exploring Tolkien
course from Cardiff. Wow! That course has to be one of the most
extensive and interesting ones I have taken since my Chaucer course in
undergrad. I posted more than 10,000 words (no. I mean it. 10k) to the
discussions and another 1500 for the research essay which I titled,
"Joseph Campbell’s Four Functions of Myth in J. R. R. Tolkien’s The
Silmarillion"--an industrial title to be sure, but I saved my creative
titles for my posts. I can send it if anyone is interested. I am
keeping it for a book chapter, though. Sue Michaels took it too and
her posts were wonderfully insightful. She's a gem for certain.
I would HIGHLY recommend anyone who is interested in Tolkien
scholarship to take the course...it is well worth it. Dr. Dimitra Fimi
wrote her dissertation on Tolkien and it was she who taught the online
course. She is just amazing.
Anyway, I hope to post more now that I have some time on my hands. I
have barely found the time to read all of the postings since the
"hobbit" skeleton was named. But I will catch up so to speak. Hope all
is well with everyone, and Michael...I am so jealous of your
Scandinavian get-away!
Elise
On Apr 19, 6:20 pm, "Ted/Edwin/Eadwine/Herendil"
Ted/Edwin/Eadwine/Herendil
As I mentioned here, I'm reading "Wild Ducks Flying Backward", a
collection of short writing by Tom Robbins. One section of the book is
devoted to tributes, and one tribute is to Joseph Campbell. Robbins
had a few words to say about the virtues of myth - a big difference
between him and Tolkien is in the writing central to Christianity.
Tolkien firmly believed that this was fact (and in explaining this to
C.S. Lewis went some way to convert him to the Christian faith, though
not, of course, to Roman Catholicism), whereas Robbins clearly takes
it as myth. He, however, feels that it is more powerful for being myth
than if it were held to be the truth (as presumably most Christians
do). The tribute tp Campbell is not long enough to do more than
scratch the surface of myth and its value, and it would be nice to
read more by Tom Robbins on this subject - his writing is about as far
from academic as it's possible to get, one readon why I like reading
it.
The fact is that I am still rather mystified by the perceived
importance of myth making. You may recall that at "Michael's" Seminar
(Michael may not want to claim sole credit for it) Kate Forsyth raised
the issue of Tolkien's identifying the virtue of consolation in myth
while China Miéville scoffed at it as "mollycoddling". I feel that I
haven't gotten to the bottom of this and related matters. Some people,
I suspect, wrote myth to document existing folklore, others, Tolkien
being the most noteworthy, wrote it because there was little or
insufficient real myth, while still others simply made it up in order
to sell books. But how do you identify the benefits of myth to people
in general, eg the "British" myths of Tolkien to the people of
Britain? This and other related questions still require more complete
answers as far as I'm concerned.
Elise
Robbins sounds interesting and now that you mention that he mentions
Campbell,
a demi-god in the land of comparative mythology, imho, I will secure a
copy of the book!
Interestingly you use the word 'fact' and 'truth'. According to
Campbell, and as far as I
can discern Tolkien as well, myth is Truth. I enjoy semantical
debates, and
the older I get, the more I see Truth as a glimmer amongst words that
create.
It may well be the glamour of the perilous realm.
Tolkien states in "On Fairy-stories that "The peculiar quality of the
'joy' in successful
Fantasy can thus be explained as a sudden glimpse of the underlying
reality or truth. It is not
only a 'consolation' for the sorrow of this world, but a satisfaction,
and an
answer to that question, "Is it true?" The answer to this question
that I gave at
first was (quite rightly): "If you have built your little world well,
yes: it is true
in that world." (88)
For me, this is perception and Truth definitely relates to perception.
As an example:
for Catholics as opposed to Protestants, the change of 1 iota is the
difference between
believing that the triune godhead is 'one and the same' or 'of the
same essence'. Am I
to truly accept as real or true that the eucharist is the physical
body of the Christ? or
do I accept the ritual as a representation of it. Either way, is it
any less True?
Perception. And you cannot hope to win when pitting Perception to
Reality because they
are subjective.
Myths have that inner consistency that Tolkien claims is the mark of a
good fairy-story
and myth is equated with history and legend, both accepted at times as
Truth. The phrase
Perception is Reality is true! oh, sadly so very true at the worst of
times. Isit any less
real for me to speak to my deceased husband (now I lose credibility,
I'll wager) than to know
that he is no longer physically here and treat his presence as if it
were not real?
I perceive through my senses, but there is that sense of for lack of a
better word, intuition.
I listen to that intuition once I caught on that it is there as a
resource no less than my eyes
or ears or nose. Can I touch it? Not with my physical appendages, no
more than I can
touch the aroma of vanilla. It exists none the less. This is where
myth lies for me. It is real,
it is true, it does exist and this is most likely the reason I love
Tolkien's stories.
But I digress, or not! This is truly fascinating for me and the reason
that I love teaching. I want to
know others' Truths.
Elise
On Apr 22, 12:26 am, "Ted/Edwin/Eadwine/Herendil"
Jeff Lynch
Ted/Edwin/Eadwine/Herendil
> Hi Ted,
> Robbins sounds interesting and now that you mention that he mentions
> Campbell,
> a demi-god in the land of comparative mythology, imho, I will secure a
> copy of the book!
probably isn't the best of Tom Robbins's books to
start on. He has written eight novels and if I give you the titles of
them I think it will be clear that he is a very
unusual writer. He is probably even more unusual than the titles would
indicte. The novels, in order of publication
(therefore presumably of writing) are:
Another Roadside Attraction
Even Cowgirls Get the Blues
Still Life with Woodpecker
Jitterbug Perfume
Skinny Legs and All
Half Asleep in Frog Pajamas
Fierce Invalids Home from Hot Climates
Villa Incognito
and, yes, I've read them all.
> Interestingly you use the word 'fact' and 'truth'. According to
> Campbell, and as far as I
> can discern Tolkien as well, myth is Truth. I enjoy semantical
> debates, and
> the older I get, the more I see Truth as a glimmer amongst words that
> create.
> It may well be the glamour of the perilous realm.
>
> Tolkien states in "On Fairy-stories that "The peculiar quality of the
> 'joy' in successful
> Fantasy can thus be explained as a sudden glimpse of the underlying
> reality or truth. It is not
> only a 'consolation' for the sorrow of this world, but a satisfaction,
> and an
> answer to that question, "Is it true?" The answer to this question
> that I gave at
> first was (quite rightly): "If you have built your little world well,
> yes: it is true
> in that world." (88)
"truth" (or is it "Truth" and are the two words
different?). However I could accept that it is truth arrived at
through a process other than science. Moreover, so
called "scientific facts" have no credentials for the label "truth" as
behind the philosophy of science is the need
for any given scientific fact to be open to challenge. Religious
facts, eg the Genesis version of creation, are
either to be believed ort not believed, not challenged on the basis of
recent observations. This might also apply to
mythical truths, yet as I understand it JRRT distinguished between the
two.
> For me, this is perception and Truth definitely relates to perception.
> As an example:
> for Catholics as opposed to Protestants, the change of 1 iota is the
> difference between
> believing that the triune godhead is 'one and the same' or 'of the
> same essence'. Am I
> to truly accept as real or true that the eucharist is the physical
> body of the Christ? or
> do I accept the ritual as a representation of it. Either way, is it
> any less True?
> Perception. And you cannot hope to win when pitting Perception to
> Reality because they
> are subjective.
driving. Apparently his blood alcohol was over
.05. He attributed it to communion wine. Now if he took it in the
Eucharist, should it not have become the Blood of
the Christ, hence presumably contain little or no alcohol? Or was the
priest's faith insufficient for the miracle of
trans-substantiation to have been wrought? Otoh he might have just
been having a sly tipple out of church.
> Myths have that inner consistency that Tolkien claims is the mark of a
> good fairy-story
> and myth is equated with history and legend, both accepted at times as
> Truth. The phrase
> Perception is Reality is true! oh, sadly so very true at the worst of
> I'll wager) than to know
> that he is no longer physically here and treat his presence as if it
> were not real?
much with us and in some senses more real than the living, but they
live on in the hearts and minds of those that knew them. As Laurence
Binyon put it in the well known poem (For the Fallen): "To the
innermost hearts of their own they are known / As the Stars are known
to the Night."
> I perceive through my senses, but there is that sense of for lack of a
> better word, intuition.
> I listen to that intuition once I caught on that it is there as a
> resource no less than my eyes
> or ears or nose. Can I touch it? Not with my physical appendages, no
> more than I can
> touch the aroma of vanilla. It exists none the less. This is where
> myth lies for me. It is real,
> it is true, it does exist and this is most likely the reason I love
> Tolkien's stories.
you didn't you wouldn't know about it. Unless you
believed someone else who told you about it when you couldn't smell
it.
> But I digress, or not! This is truly fascinating for me and the reason
> that I love teaching. I want to
> know others' Truths.
serpent. His decision after the experience was to tell the tale as a
fiction rather than expect the public to believe what he said was the
truth but which lacked any
definite evidence. He ended the story with a quote which I can't
remember in detail but expressed the feeling that
the truth was "a naked lady" and she needed to be clothed in the
covering of fiction in order to be accepted. What he really did was
leave the whole story rather up in the air: was it true or not? He
appeared to allow the reader to decide.
"And if you doubt the tale I tell
Steer through the South Pacific swell,
Go where the branching coral hives
Unending strife of endless lives;
Where, leagued about the 'wildered boat,
The rainbow jellies fill and float
And, lilting where the laver lingers,
The starfish trips on all her fingers;
Where, 'neath his myriad spines ashock,
The sea-egg ripples down the rock.
An orange wonder, dimly guessed
From darkness where the cuttles rest,
Moored over darker deeps that hide
The blind white sea-snake and his bride
Who, drowsing, nose the long-lost ships
Let down through darkness to their lips."
Oh, btw, there is a Kipling Society in Australia - and a Jane Austen
Society and others of similar ilk. I have
contact details if anyone's interested.
Elise
What a thoughtful post! So what do we do when science is in direct
conflict with belief or Truth? Depends much upon your perception.
Priest thought he was alright, Cop didn't. Who's going to jail? :)
I see your point about 'touching' vanilla with my nose, but I didn't
did I? Physically, I mean. That other sense--intuition is like the
sense of smell is all I meant to describe by comparison...even if it
is apples and oranges.
Now, strangely enough "Jitterbug Perfume" was given to me many years
ago in undergraduate school. Must've been over 20 yrs ago. I took it,
but at long last I pitched it, unread, into the Goodwill box. Now I
wondered about the book a few weeks ago for some reason and then you
mention it here. Fate? Destiny? I think I'd better had read it!
I am a great WWI buff and thought about Gallipoli last Friday. I
didn't realise that ANZAC day has become a remembrance for all
soldiers lost in war....however, that "Flowers of the Forest" is
played struck me as odd since I thought it was a strictly Scottish
air. Beautiful and sad none the less. Much reverence is due to those
who have laid down their lives, truly.
Elise
On Apr 27, 10:31 pm, "Ted/Edwin/Eadwine/Herendil"
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
Marayong
Hmmm... truth ... a much abused word over the years. At best it's a very
subjective thing, relative even. And it no doubt means something
different to every sentient being. Presumably deities as well. :)
>>> Tolkien states in "On Fairy-stories that "The peculiar quality of
>>> the 'joy' in successful Fantasy can thus be explained as a sudden
>>> glimpse of the underlying reality or truth. It is not
>>> only a 'consolation' for the sorrow of this world, but a
>>> satisfaction, and an answer to that question, "Is it true?" The
>>> answer to this question that I gave at first was (quite rightly):
>>> "If you have built your little world well, yes: it is true
>>> in that world." (88)
I would think that "true" in that case means more "internal consistency"
than "true" in either the scientific or religious/philosophical senses.
All too many works of fiction lack that internal consistency and
something that is presented as a 'fact' at one point may be contradicted
in another part of the work. I've even read one fantasy writer who was
answering to accusations of gross internal inconsistency that he didn't
care less and the inconsistencies made the work more interesting and
amusing.
>> That, I must admit, sounds like a particular "spin" on the word
>> "truth" (or is it "Truth" and are the two words
>> different?). However I could accept that it is truth arrived at
>> through a process other than science. Moreover, so called
>> "scientific facts" have no credentials for the label "truth" as
>> behind the philosophy of science is the need
>> for any given scientific fact to be open to challenge. Religious
>> facts, eg the Genesis version of creation, are
>> either to be believed ort not believed, not challenged on the basis
>> of recent observations. This might also apply to
>> mythical truths, yet as I understand it JRRT distinguished between
>> the two.
I would likely quibble about "scientific facts have no credentials for
the label truth" - it's not the facts themselves that are open to
challenge but their reliability, their accuracy but more importantly any
theories that explain that observed fact or theories that are based on
said facts. of course in science "fact" tends not to be used, rather
"data" is the preferred word .. likely because 'data' does not have the
connotations that 'fact' does. In science newly measured facts are often
a matter of debate but longer established ones with plenty of
verification are much less open to debate.
As for religious truth ... even there it's not that clear cut. There are
facts which influence such beliefs and many of them are of recent
occurrence. Whether one believes in them or not, there are many who
claim that miracles and other divinely initiated supernatural events
happen today and for those who believe in those events, it assuredly
impacts on their beliefs.
And away from the superficial and to one degree or another fanatical
beliefs of some in the religious area there is certainly a lot of
challenging and discussion of the "truth" and the "facts" that support
the various flavours of the "truth". :)
Re the eucharist .. that's a good example of a "relative truth". Rather
than use loaded terms like religious etc and Truth vs truth, it maybe
better to use the terms "factual truth" and "relative truth" ...
although of course some proponents of a particular "relative truth" may
insist it is actually a "factual truth". :)
>> once heard of a story of a Roman Catholic priest picked up for drink
>> driving. Apparently his blood alcohol was over
>> .05. He attributed it to communion wine. Now if he took it in the
>> Eucharist, should it not have become the Blood of
>> the Christ, hence presumably contain little or no alcohol? Or was the
>> priest's faith insufficient for the miracle of
>> trans-substantiation to have been wrought? Otoh he might have just
>> been having a sly tipple out of church.
At the end of the service the priest is supposed to consume any
remaining bread and wine. Not all follow that practice however and
there's a fair bit of disposal that goes on.
>>> or ears or nose. Can I touch it? Not with my physical appendages, no
>>> more than I can
>>> touch the aroma of vanilla. It exists none the less.
The same logic applies to air .. it is invisible, tasteless, odourless,
totally undetectable by human senses .. yet it is there .. as its
absence would quickly demonstrate!
> What a thoughtful post! So what do we do when science is in direct
> conflict with belief or Truth? Depends much upon your perception.
IMO when science and religion conflict over the "truth" it's because of
someone confusing "relative truth" with "factual truth". I could say
more on this but have run out of time, alas.
> I am a great WWI buff and thought about Gallipoli last Friday. I
> didn't realise that ANZAC day has become a remembrance for all
> soldiers lost in war....however, that "Flowers of the Forest" is
> played struck me as odd since I thought it was a strictly Scottish
> air. Beautiful and sad none the less. Much reverence is due to those
> who have laid down their lives, truly.
Anzac day has changed a lot over the past 20 years. 20 years ago, even
10 years ago, it was slowly fading into oblivion as the last of the
diggers shuffled off into another reality. The marches used to be on
every tv channel, but then only the ABC (govt owned network) showed it.
It was quickly heading towards becoming yet another holiday that was
irrelevant to all apart from the historians .. such as the Queen's
Birthday holiday. But then 10 years ago or so there was a resurrection
of interest in Anzac day and the day became tied into national pride and
today it's taken on a life of it's own and grows every year. I think the
resurrection started with the younger crowd ... the younger
20-something's who in increasing numbers went on Anzac pilgrimages to
Gallipoli. Now all the channels have the marches and the dawn service at
Gallipoli.
Jeff Lynch
Well the new young female teacher came to Broughton..a female one and
my wife's grandad's brother was v sweet on this clever lass.....but he
was sent to Gallipoli and helped swell Winston's red head a little
further........
What is more he sacrificed his life for the good of his fellow country
men and Britain's Lords and cockney lads and for all I know he did it
for the real Lord too. He also assisted Mustapha Kemal to become the
'MAN' in turkey....he helped Turkey become non religious as far as
Islam is concerned ...for the now!
He was killed alongside many a strapping two eyed lad at Lone Pine
Hill and he helped David Williams to tell his tale .....Now you have
already guessed the conclusion to this tale eh? Frank....my wife's
grandpop got the schoolteacher because her lover the brother was a
deceased man as well as a post enlisted one.....Frank married her and
they lived as man and wife wheat farmers in the WIMMERA UNTIL ALL THE
DINGOS WERE DEAD OR SOMETHING.....
Is there a moral to this tale?
Probably not...am I little sore at either of these bros...No I don't
even think that there was atiny bit of a grand plan at work
here..Saving Winston's one....and he had to resign NOT THE GENERALS!
Jeff
Ted/Edwin/Eadwine/Herendil
> What a thoughtful post!
Up there for thinking, down there for dancing. I can't dance :)
>So what do we do when science is in direct
> conflict with belief or Truth? Depends much upon your perception.
> Priest thought he was alright, Cop didn't. Who's going to jail? :)
mention of communion wine would not have constiututed a valid excuse.
I'm not sure if the priest thought he was alright anyway. He may have
hoped for mercy because of who he was and what he did.
> I see your point about 'touching' vanilla with my nose, but I didn't
> did I? Physically, I mean. That other sense--intuition is like the
> sense of smell is all I meant to describe by comparison...even if it
> is apples and oranges.
are all interactions between an external source and a part of the
body. In this respect I see no difference between touching and
smelling.
> Now, strangely enough "Jitterbug Perfume" was given to me many years
> ago in undergraduate school. Must've been over 20 yrs ago. I took it,
> but at long last I pitched it, unread, into the Goodwill box. Now I
> wondered about the book a few weeks ago for some reason and then you
> mention it here. Fate? Destiny? I think I'd better had read it!
disbelief" of a kind that is a little different from that required for
a fantasy of the more normal type. I would always recommend all of Tom
Robbins' novels, and I find it hard to arrange them in a particular
order either by personal favouritism or for sequential reading.
Perhaps "Cowgirls" is the best starting point, but that is certainly
debatable.
> I am a great WWI buff and thought about Gallipoli last Friday. I
> didn't realise that ANZAC day has become a remembrance for all
> soldiers lost in war....however, that "Flowers of the Forest" is
> played struck me as odd since I thought it was a strictly Scottish
> air. Beautiful and sad none the less. Much reverence is due to those
> who have laid down their lives, truly.
is its applicability to all soldiers lost in all wars. As I understand
it, Gallipoli was, as I understand it, a mistake, as was the Charge of
the Light Brigade in the Crimea, but they have been both eulogised to
good effect for all wars at all times. Notice that Laurence Binyon's
poem does not specify a war or wars, and that's where we get the "ode"
from.
Graham McArthur
Graham