Little survey: which keyboard is the "hacker" keyboard?

[Torsten Wagner]

Hi,

on my long journey to find the perfect keyboard, I used various "Pro"
keyboards already.
I liked the IBM Model M. However, it was not really co-worker friendly ;).

Back in Germany I used a "IBM rapid access 3" which was nice. I always
use US or UK layouts since its easier to remember the position of the
few German Umlauts compared to the numerous changes in position for
special characters. Most programming languages target English and
hence, syntax is often optimised for English keyboard layouts.
For laptops I guess nothings beats the IBM Thinkpad keyboards. To my
horror Lenovo made changes to this now and I have no idea how the new
keyboard behaves.

I never got warm with the ergonomic keyboards. Don't know why just
don't feel comfortable.

There are all this "Hacker" and "Pro" advertised keyboards. But
serious, I learned long time ago that stuff which claims to be "Pro"
never really is "Pro".

Then there are those crazy expensive keyboards, you can split them,
they have cavities, many blinkelichter or whatever. However, until
now, I always had more useful things on my wish/duty-list rather then
spending $500 for a keyboard.

The keyboard and the display is what is in contact with us most of the
time. You can easily deal with a slow CPU, shitty HDD or ultra-cheap
motherboard. You can't/shouldn't make compromises on the keyboard and
display. I know selling arguments are running vice versa, but lets
assume we are all "pro" enough to know what really counts.

So my question to the list....

What is the REAL ultimate hacker keyboard? One which even after an 12
hour session does not leave you with a spinal meningitis (even by
using Emacs ;).

Totti

[Luis Felipe RM]

On 10/29/2012 06:26 AM, Torsten Wagner wrote:
> What is the REAL ultimate hacker keyboard?

I am not sure about the *ultimate* hacker keyboard, but external (USB)
Thinkpad keyboards -- yes, external! -- are way cool and cheap. You do
not have to move your hands away from the keyboard to use the pointer.
And they are really good keyboards.

[Torsten Wagner]

I know those. Unfortuantely, I never got one for myself.
You mean those right?

http://www.amazon.com/ThinkPad-USB-Keyboard-with-TrackPoint/dp/B002ONCC6G/ref=pd_sim_sbs_e_1

Totti

> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TokyoHackerSpace" group.
> To post to this group, send email to tokyohac...@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to tokyohackerspa...@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/tokyohackerspace?hl=en.
>

[Nava Whiteford]

I used to use a Cherry Click keyboard, those are rather nice but also not
co-worker friendly.

I then started using mac mini keyboards, membrane, but I find them quite nice,
but obviously being mac keyboards the keymap is annoying on Linux, I
particularly hate installing weird keymaps on N machines and not having a # key
which is key I built my own keyboard controller:

http://hackaday.com/2011/10/06/hardware-based-keyboard-remapping/

Unfortunately these days, I mostly use laptops.

> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TokyoHackerSpace" group.
> To post to this group, send email to tokyohac...@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to tokyohackerspa...@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/tokyohackerspace?hl=en.

--
Nava Whiteford, Contractor (Genomics, Embedded, Algorithms, DevOps) - SGenomics Ltd
Adachi-ku, Tokyo

n...@sgenomics.co.uk | www.sgenomics.co.uk
Company Address: 1 Pickenbridge, Compton Durville, South Petherton, Somerset TA13 5EY
Company Number: 07983361

[Akiba]

I've been using the Microsoft Natural Keyboard Pro for a very long time now.
I've even had to repair and solder the internal flex PCB since it corroded
due to its age. It's an ergo keyboard but I like it because the keys are
clicky, but don't require too much pressure. The ergo design also feels more
natural than a straight keyboard. I purchased a Filco mechanical keyboard
before but I found that the keypresses required slightly more force than my
ergo keyboard and it eventually led to forearm strain. Also, the Filco
mechanical keyboard has a debouncing issue so that some keypresses register
multiple times. Really, really irritating. I seem to remember really liking
the old school IBM XT keyboards and the sound they made. Those things were
hefty and built to last.

Akiba
FreakLabs Open Source Wireless
Web: http://www.freaklabs.org
Shop:http://www.freaklabsstore.com
Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/freaklabs

[Mikele]

I use this: http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/freestyle.htm, really dig its form.  
+ this http://www.logitech.com/en-gb/support/keyboards/6355 to run scripts and move windows  around single or multi monitor set-up (I work out of a laptop plugged into 3 more monitors, you saw it)

but I really like this (that I use on all the other computers) mostly for the key's backlight and feel at the touch.

I'd like to have an hybrid of the two one day.

[Kalin KOZHUHAROV]

For the last 5 years I use only Sigma GMKB109BK (search, I cannot find
it recently), I think I have bought about 10 of those for work and
various offices. I love them!
Last time (12 months ago I bought 3 of them from BicCamera Shinjuku).

Those are always set with a Microsoft "Wheel Mouse Optical USB and
PX/2 Compatible" (what a lame name for a great product). Those are
apparently OEM and (that is why) work great - big enough arch, good
buttons and scroll wheel, no thrills, works with any OS and doesn't
require updates, LoL (it doesn't sound like MS does it?!)

For the last 13 years I completely switched to JP109 layout though, I
like the extra keys and I often write Japanese anyway.
I use a custom PITA keyboard map to have Bulgarian, English and
Japanese (Scim/Anthy) working...

Kalin.

[James Andrews]

The MS Keyboard Akiba mentioned is awesome. When I was using a
windows computer and took a new job, it was always written into the
contract that I would get one of those on my start day. These days I
just use the one on my laptop, since I don't have a desktop machine.

James

[Torsten Wagner]

Hi Kalin,

I can't live with the shorten space bar on Japanese keyboards.
Whenever I try to type on them, I often hit the muhenkan, henkan, and
the Hiragana/Katakana switch key.
Annoying if you are used to touch type and write rather fast.

> For the last 13 years I completely switched to JP109 layout though, I
> like the extra keys and I often write Japanese anyway.
> I use a custom PITA keyboard map to have Bulgarian, English and
> Japanese (Scim/Anthy) working...

I don't know if you are an Emacs user. But Emacs has its own input
methods for different languages (like an IME). E.g. "M-x
set-intput-method german-postfix" allows me to use an English layout
and type
ue to get an ü
ae to get an ä
and so on.

There are three different input methods for Bulgarian.
You might like to try them out. I set-up many of my editing task (like
writing this email) to open up in a Emacs session and automatically
copy the final text later into the webmailer textbox (plugins for
Firefox and Chrome exists).

As for Scim/Anthy/ibus etc. That might be nice part for a THS lecture!
I learned that many people in Japan are curious about Linux but don't
see how to replace the omipresent and crucial important Windows IME
to type Japanese.

Totti

[Chris Shannon]

I use a Filco, great keyboards and my more manly hands don't have any problem pressing the keys.

c

On Mon, Oct 29, 2012 at 11:14 PM, Akiba <ch...@freaklabs.org> wrote:

[Torsten Wagner]

Hi.

I was thinking of creating an OpenSource keyboard uC. With so fancy
features like keyboard macros, password manager, maybe an OLED display
for systems statistics, etc.

Thanks for the link.

Totti

[Kalin KOZHUHAROV]

On Tue, Oct 30, 2012 at 10:35 AM, Torsten Wagner
<torsten...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I was thinking of creating an OpenSource keyboard uC. With so fancy
> features like keyboard macros, password manager, maybe an OLED display
> for systems statistics, etc.
>

That sounds interesting!

It will be hard to find open hardware keyboard ... cough, cough ...
asked Google:
http://www.key64.org/
https://github.com/tmk/tmk_keyboard

(and I am sure you've seen this non-open
http://www.artlebedev.com/everything/optimus/popularis/ )


> Thanks for the link.

> On 29 October 2012 22:50, Nava Whiteford <n...@sgenomics.org> wrote:
>> I used to use a Cherry Click keyboard, those are rather nice but also not
>> co-worker friendly.
>>
>> I then started using mac mini keyboards, membrane, but I find them quite nice,
>> but obviously being mac keyboards the keymap is annoying on Linux, I
>> particularly hate installing weird keymaps on N machines and not having a # key
>> which is key I built my own keyboard controller:
>>
>> http://hackaday.com/2011/10/06/hardware-based-keyboard-remapping/
>>

Hey Nava, you should bring this project as show&tell to THS!

Kalin.

[Torsten Wagner]

Hehehehe....

I saw esp. the price tag >$1000 for a keyboard uhhhh....
I would even consider it if the mechanics is really outstanding... but
simply because of funny OLED pictures on each key.... don't know. I
don't look at my keyboard, I look at my screen. So why do I need OLED
displays on my keys?

Totti




On 30 October 2012 11:42, Kalin KOZHUHAROV <me.k...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 30, 2012 at 10:35 AM, Torsten Wag797 €ner

[Richard Frankum]

On Mon, Oct 29, 2012 at 10:26 PM, Torsten Wagner
<torsten...@gmail.com> wrote:
> What is the REAL ultimate hacker keyboard? One which even after an 12
> hour session does not leave you with a spinal meningitis (even by
> using Emacs ;).

When I was in my early 20s I started getting pain in my wrists (RSI, I
thought) so I changed to an ergo keyboard.

http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/index.htm

Problem with these is that touch-typing on a keyboard with different
distances for the fingers takes about a week to get used to, and I
couldn't quickly borrow a co-worker's keyboard during it. It's a lot
of fun to type on a space-age design though.

> Totti

--
--Richard Frankum

[Richard Frankum]

On Tue, Oct 30, 2012 at 11:51 AM, Torsten Wagner
<torsten...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hehehehe....
>
> I saw esp. the price tag >$1000 for a keyboard uhhhh....
> I would even consider it if the mechanics is really outstanding... but
> simply because of funny OLED pictures on each key.... don't know. I
> don't look at my keyboard, I look at my screen. So why do I need OLED
> displays on my keys?

Last place I taught at, the trainees were allowed to bring their own
keyboards / mice to the job. About a third of them had the Happy
Hacking:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happy_Hacking_Keyboard

All with blank keytops. Which works okay if you're touch-typing, not
so much when your student has configured Wnn and a random
international keyboard and you have to go fumbling to find the | key.

> Totti

--Richard

--
--Richard Frankum

[Torsten Wagner]

In my opinion, this blank keytops keyboards are in the category
"wannabe-Hacker".
I mean I do not care at all if there are lables on it or not...
mechanics is what counts.
A friend has a Realforce Keyboard which feels quite nice.

http://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=topre_keyboards,rftenkeyless&pid=rf_se1700

In general if you lift a keyboard and it has a surprising weight... it
might be a good one ;)

At the moment I used a standard DELL because that was the only US
keyboard I could get here at work at my arrival.
Does its job but not really perfect.

And then do not forget the DataHand
http://www.datahand.com/overview/photos.htm
Just would like to see this in real and try it
Just curios


Totti

[AbH Belxjander Draconis Serechai]

Amd here I am writing an IME handler for AmigaOs 4.1 and newer to handle multiple languages together

personally I can't tolerate programming on a non-japanese layout anymore...

so I had to special order and spit hellfire at a local pc store in NZ that claimed to be able to provide me with a japanese keyboard

they provided a cheap us layout and thought I would be happy with some IME with it

I took in my old broken keyboard and shoved it in the clerks face.and asked where the japanese keys were on the keyboard they sold me which I had also taken in

When it comes to computers I admot to being a tight arsed BOFH with extra tines on the pitchfork

Maybe I can sort out getting to to THS tonight?

Jeremy

[MRE]

I forgot the name of mine, but its wide, blacj, and has keys on it. I was considering buttons, but thought that might slow me down.

Its US layout, since I learned on a us typewriter. I type

[MRE]

Fnarking droid. Now theres a shitty keyboard.

Anyway.. the point of my witty half post was:

I dont get the strobg preferences for keyboards. As long as the layout matches how you learned, and the keys dont jam up or are too stiff (or a crappy controller doesnt double type), any keyboard is roughly as good as any other.

rarely have I ever sat down and felt "ugh I cant type on this!"

Only adjectives I use to rule out a keyboard are "too small", "too stiff" or "weird layout"

A REAL hacker can use ANY keyboard, any WHERE, any TIME.

Dont flame me.

[Torsten Wagner]

Hehehehe....

did you ever use a better keyboard?

Its not that you can't type on a $5 keyboard.
Its more like using pro-tools for pro-jobs.
As a carpenter you do not use a $15 dollar power drill, however, when
it comes to keyboards many people tend to use what came with the PC.

I just was curious about what you guys/girls are using.
But it seems there is no ultimative solution unlike we wait for the
Freakeyboard.

Totti

> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TokyoHackerSpace" group.

> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/tokyohackerspace/-/4npqcCarrqEJ.

[Luis Felipe RM]

On 10/29/2012 06:37 AM, Torsten Wagner wrote:
> I know those. Unfortuantely, I never got one for myself.
> You mean those right?
>
> http://www.amazon.com/ThinkPad-USB-Keyboard-with-TrackPoint/dp/B002ONCC6G/ref=pd_sim_sbs_e_1
>

Yes, this is the one; cheap and portable :)

[MRE]

[MRE]

Frakeyboard +1 ;)

Hey, at least we dont have to flip 8 switches and togle "load"!!!!

[MRE]

I DO have a super small netbook with poasibly the worst keyboard ever.

Very tiny.
All keys you have to jam hard because the plastics are not glide smooth.
Many get stuck down either because plastic binding or going UNDER adjacant keys!!

Terrible.

[AbH Belxjander Draconis Serechai]

I learned to touch type on the Amiga 96key layout then used the US layout and now feel my hands cramp on anything not a proper Japanese layout

For me the Japanese 109 layout works best

right now my OS of choice only has support equal to what I patch into it using any standard Japanese layout keyboard

I'll see who turns up at the hackerspace tonight

Jeremy

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TokyoHackerSpace" group.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/tokyohackerspace/-/4npqcCarrqEJ.

[Chris Harrington]

This is a great thread. I've been using the cheapest standard sized
USB English keyboard I could find in the shop that day for only a few
years, and half the keys have not only been scraped clean but actually
indented, with a few (!) millimeters removed from their thickness.

http://www.sanwa.co.jp/product/syohin.asp?code=SKB-E1U

I guess I type quite a bit......

Chris Harrington
chris.har...@gmail.com
http://chris.harrington.jp/
http://gplus.to/chrisharrington
090-8812-8911

[Torsten Wagner]

On 30 October 2012 18:04, Chris Harrington

<chris.har...@gmail.com> wrote:
> This is a great thread. I've been using the cheapest standard sized
> USB English keyboard I could find in the shop that day for only a few
> years, and half the keys have not only been scraped clean but actually
> indented, with a few (!) millimeters removed from their thickness.
>
> http://www.sanwa.co.jp/product/syohin.asp?code=SKB-E1U
>
> I guess I type quite a bit......

But in that case you might really improve your "working condition" by
using a better keyboard !
The changes might seem subtle, however, it adds up using a keyboard
over many hours.


Give it a try :)

Totti