milling machine

[Kalin KOZHUHAROV]

Do we want that for the new space?

I can donate 1 man immediately to be able to use it occasionally.

Grizzly Industrial Milling Machine - JPY42000 (Roppongi)
http://tokyo.craigslist.jp/tls/3113922028.html

Kalin.

[Mikele]

1 man from me.

if we reach the goal and get it, I can store it until we have set up the the new place.

Kalin.

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[Jud Taylor]

1 superman from me.

10,000.

[Kalin KOZHUHAROV]

Good, we need 1man more and we'll pretty much cover it.
Anyone?

Also, who else is planning to use it (even without paying now) ?
Anybody against buying it?

Mikele, thanks for the offer, I think we can directly ship it (i.e.
have the guy deliver it) to new THS. Two people will be needed to
bring it up to the elevator.

http://www.grizzly.com/products/G8689

Kalin.

[Chris Shannon]

i guess i will do 12,000.. 

[Taylan Ayken]

Probably I will use it in not so distant future. This is for Shibuya place right? Not the possible school workshop.

---

From: Kalin KOZHUHAROV <me.k...@gmail.com>
To: tokyohac...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 3, 2012 9:35 AM
Subject: Re: [THS:18777] milling machine

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[Matt]

I'd like to use it one day..

Sent from a toy

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[Mikele]

I know I will have use for it at one point... even if it would be just for practice.

I will bring you the man in cash tonight.

[Kalin KOZHUHAROV]

OK, I contacted the guy, let's see if it is still available.

I am at a client now, seems that I will not make it (again) tonight, sorry :-(

Cheers,
Kalin.

[Mikele]

I plan on coming to Safecast party on Sat. ... well, to the FabCafe part as I work during the day.
maybe see you there?

in any case if we get the machine, I will make sure to have the bill in my pocket until next.

Kalin.

[Benjamin Davis]

Oo, ooh, can we have one of these too while we're at it?  :D

http://www.lucasmill.com/OurProducts/CircularSwingBladeMills/PetrolPowered/Model723/tabid/299/Default.aspx

[Kalin KOZHUHAROV]

On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 7:42 PM, Benjamin Davis
<davis.be...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Oo, ooh, can we have one of these too while we're at it? :D
> http://www.lucasmill.com/OurProducts/CircularSwingBladeMills/PetrolPowered/Model723/tabid/299/Default.aspx
>

No.
Unless you rent a 7 x 3 m dedicated space with proper ventilation for
petrol engines, help with the 400kg shipping weight and... did you see
it on Craigslist Tokyo? LoL

Kalin.

[MRE]

Im confused... whats wrong with the Proxon Mill?
ITs the same thing. Perhaps a bit smaller... and needing a bit of
TLC.. but yeah. Same thing.

And it didnt get a whole lot of use, other than as a drill press.

[Benjamin Davis]

Naw.  Spent a weekend a couple weeks back using one and the post about mills reminded me of it.  Awesome for making slabbed table tops and benches and such.  (And so much more sustainable for projects than the usual wood-from-god-knows-where.)

Bit of a stretch for inside Tokyo, I guess.  Though being able to drive it around on your truck and demolish sugi trees (Battling Kafunsho for Fun and Profit!) would be pretty sweet.  (I wonder how fast one could make back one's investment?  Bet they'll ship to Japan is asked...)

[Kalin KOZHUHAROV]

On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 2:23 AM, MRE <epre...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Im confused... whats wrong with the Proxon Mill?
>

Not enough torque as a drill for most any metal work and or circular
saw basically.

> ITs the same thing. Perhaps a bit smaller... and needing a bit of
> TLC.. but yeah. Same thing.
>

Almost :-) Like iPhone and iMac kind of.

> And it didnt get a whole lot of use, other than as a drill press.
>

Yep, but even a good drill press would see more use.



The guy just contacted me, the machine is new, never used (in crate)
shipped from US.

Who has keys for the new space? We need to organize the delivery
(he'll bring it by car) by this weekend.

Cheers,
Kalin.

[Kalin KOZHUHAROV]

So who has keys for the new space? We need to organize the delivery

(he'll bring it by car) by this weekend.

Kalin.

[lauren shannon]

HI Kalin. Let's coordinate. I can meet someone there on Sat?

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--

We LOVE Food and Wine!

Try my catering company at
www.moonandback.jp

and our restaurant and wine bar
www.kimonowinebar.com

[Kalin KOZHUHAROV]

On Thu, Jul 5, 2012 at 6:37 PM, lauren shannon <lauren....@gmail.com> wrote:
> HI Kalin. Let's coordinate. I can meet someone there on Sat?
>

OK, Saturday noon / afternoon? Any time preference?

Kalin.

[Kalin KOZHUHAROV]

All right Gentlemen and Ladies,

THS has a new milling machine! Pictures on the Facebook page.
Manual: http://cdn0.grizzly.com/manuals/g8689_m.pdf

Thanks to Chris for the heavy lifting workout we did in this close to
saturation vapor today (no it is not air at these humidity levels).
Thanks to Chris, Mikele, Jud (and me) for donating money!
As a side result, we might get an additional member (Mark, the original owner).

Now, this being one of the big and relatively expensive tools at THS,
as well as brand new (it was brought in the original crate, as shipped
from the factory) and quite powerful (3/4 of a horse, LoL), we'll need
to workout some rulez.

First, nobody gets to play with it before we properly degrease and
re-oil and thoroughly check it. Do not connect the cable. It is heavy
(50-60kg), so don't try to lift it alone, two people needed.


There will be a check list and prerequisites for operating it (safety
goggles, gloves).
We should try to organize some intro classes for it.

There are a few more accessories that we'll need, but we'll gather
them as we go (vice, different bits, oil, rugs).
It will probably be mounted on a wooden board that goes on top of the
welded table (fixed to the table with bolts in holes).
We might need dust cover.

I am thinking of putting a donation box for bits/accessories and
consumables (paper towels, rugs, oil) next to it.
If somebody breaks (or bends) a drill bit -s/he has to pay roughly the price.
I hope we'll have enough donations to upgrade the accessories regularly.

Cheers,
Kalin.

[Garrett deRosset]

Ho. 

Ly.

Shit.  

This is awesome. 

[MRE]

A shop vac as a pair, such that we can keep the mill dust to a minimum
in the space..
possibly plastic cover for the carpet and a curtain?

[MRE]

One thing.. the table needs FEET, or the square tube will cut the
carpet up.

We can get some rubber or hard plastic inserts for the square tube..
just gotta find a shop that sells those parts..
or weld some small square plates to the bottom of the legs.
OR set the whole thing on a wood base.. Lots of options

Would be good to work this out BEFORE putting the mill up on it... the
weight alone will cause the legs to cut into the carpet.

[MRE]

BTW... I get it now... this is considerably more monstrous than the
Proxxon. Not that the Proxxon is all that bad. Now we have TWO!

[lauren shannon]

tokyu hands sells that kind of stuff. chair and etc. feets.

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[lauren shannon]

also can someone do the research based on the new space location-
closest hospitals, emergency phone numbers, ambulance etc.

Richard- can you take care of this? Can someone help him.

[Torsten Wagner]

If there is carpet you might want to put some sort of plastic or wood
around the space of the mill.
Metal swarf and carpet don't play well. However, even more annoying is
a complete soaked carpet in coolant solution...
Coolant solution tends to start smelling rather bad over time.
However, a non-slippy solution need to be found (so no standard
deskchair plastic sheets I guess).

Totti

[Richard Frankum]

The nearest we had at the old space was a list that Dave cooked up, I
think. I'll take a look for nearby clinics, do we need to limit to
ones with Emergency Services?

--Richard

On Sun, Jul 8, 2012 at 10:37 AM, lauren shannon
<lauren....@gmail.com> wrote:
> also can someone do the research based on the new space location-
> closest hospitals, emergency phone numbers, ambulance etc.
>
> Richard- can you take care of this? Can someone help him.

--
--Richard Frankum

[Torsten Wagner]

Might be worse to check out if they offer English speaking services.  AHHHHHH sounds more natural to me compared to itaii itaii

[Jud Taylor]

maybe people at the church downstairs know a thing or two about the hood.

[Kalin KOZHUHAROV]

On Mon, Jul 9, 2012 at 9:41 PM, Jud Taylor <jud.t...@gmail.com> wrote:
> maybe people at the church downstairs know a thing or two about the hood.
>

and they'll be asked for help, for desperate situations...

Kalin.

[Richard Frankum]

On Mon, Jul 9, 2012 at 6:50 PM, Torsten Wagner <torsten...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Might be worse to check out if they offer English speaking services.

I'm sure it would be worse. (Freudian slip, there?)

I've never been to a doctor in Japan who didn't try to practice his
English on me. Usually with barely passable grammar and medical jargon
taking the place of actual words.

--
--Richard Frankum

[Mikele]

I've taken first AID at least 3 times... and there is a church downstairs.
What would you need a doctor for?

--
--Richard Frankum

[Richard Frankum]

On Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 11:49 AM, Mikele <him...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I've taken first AID at least 3 times... and there is a church downstairs.
> What would you need a doctor for?

I think medical-ese is maybe easier to understand than Italian or Hebrew. :)
Besides, we pit your First Aid versus our new milling monster. Who's gonna win?

--
--Richard Frankum

[Mikele]

well, I know how to avoid blood stains on the carpet ...

--
--Richard Frankum

[Jud Taylor]

Plastics..plastics...

[fakufaku]

Considering both Mikele and the milling machine's specialties are to make holes...

[Mikele]

guys, I've got you covered. I'll bring a tube of super-glue.

On Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 1:06 PM, fakufaku <faku...@gmail.com> wrote:

Considering both Mikele and the milling machine's specialties are to make holes...

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[Richard Frankum]

On Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 1:47 PM, Mikele <him...@gmail.com> wrote:
> guys, I've got you covered. I'll bring a tube of super-glue.

Perfect!

But what happens if you spill your wine??

--
--Richard Frankum

[Mikele]

that's not going to happen. I am extra careful with the stuff that matters...

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[Kalin KOZHUHAROV]

Ok,

I (now, obviously) couldn't make it last night (again)...

A quick update on the mill...

I have ordered the chemicals (Boeshield T-9) for after degreasing and
have a citrus degreaser, so I hope this weekend or next week I will be
able to unpack and set the mill.

We talked with Chris about mounting options... thinking to buy a piece
of wood the size of the welded table and make 4 holes in the corners
of the table and wood; then put 4 big (M14?) bolts through, without
tightening them. I'll get more pieces of wood and we can mount the
table saw and other (?) machines the same way.

What do you think?

Kalin.

[Chris Shannon]

I think that sounds great but we still need a mounting vise for working!!!!!  

;)

c

[MRE]

Serious milling can be VERY messy and smelly.

The Grizzly needs to be set up in the school workshop.

The carpet in THS is new. We dont want milling shavings in it, stains
from degreaser and coolant etc.
Not to mention, I think the other groups would not appreciate those
sorts of smells.




I think we need to clearly define what sort of work should be done at
the school workshop.
And as soon as possible, we should run a tuesday meeting out there so
that we can see the place, work out how to access it, and start
planing the workshop.

[MRE]

Please dont degrease the mill at THS. Hold off till a proper home set
up for it.

[Taylan Ayken]

Maybe we should set up a similar door entry system to the school workshop once it is field tested. Of course if it does not fail miserably during the field test.

---

From: MRE <epre...@gmail.com>
To: TokyoHackerSpace <tokyohac...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 1, 2012 5:50 PM
Subject: [THS:19486] Re: milling machine

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[Chris Shannon]

i dont agree, we can use a trap and clean up. I am against moving it

chris

[Jud Taylor]

I also am STRONGLY against moving it.

[Akiba]

I’d prefer if we can do some real work at the space. If we have to walk on eggshells over there, then having THS in the new place is meaningless.

 

Akiba

FreakLabs Open Source Wireless

Web: http://www.freaklabs.org

Shop:http://www.freaklabsstore.com

Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/freaklabs

 

---

[Chris Shannon]

 besides impact japan arent worried about their carpets, we told you that already. 

c

[Chris Shannon]

Just bought a Drill Press Vise for the milling machine. 100mm 

c

[Chris Shannon]

So Kalin, when are we degreasing that thing?

c

[Mikele]

and, will u be at the space tomorrow? I still own you money ...

--

[Kalin KOZHUHAROV]

On Mon, Aug 6, 2012 at 8:05 PM, Mikele <him...@gmail.com> wrote:
> and, will u be at the space tomorrow? I still own you money ...
>

Nope, I cannot make it tomorrow (again)...
Mikele (and Jud), can you please give the 1+1 man for my members dues
since I am already a bit late and get a receipt on my name (you can
leave it in the cash box).

> On Mon, Aug 6, 2012 at 8:03 PM, Chris Shannon <csha...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> So Kalin, when are we degreasing that thing?
>>

I am still waiting for the Boeshield T-9 :-|
It should be here any day, will ping you when it arrives. Anyway,
degreasing the mill during a regular MTG is not a good idea I think.

Cheers,
Kalin.

[Jud Taylor]

Kalin,

Unfortunately, I will not be able to be at the meeting tonight.

I could transfer funds to you (or the Space, but not by PayPal) if you prefer.

Best Regards,

Jud

[Kalin KOZHUHAROV]

On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 9:35 AM, Jud Taylor <jud.t...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Unfortunately, I will not be able to be at the meeting tonight.
>
> I could transfer funds to you (or the Space, but not by PayPal) if you prefer.
>

OK, Jud, no problem - next time (Avoid PayPal for local transfers).

Kalin.

[Mikele]

cool! I'll do that!

On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 1:19 AM, Kalin KOZHUHAROV <me.k...@gmail.com> wrote:

[MRE]

Kalin,

Mikele paid for two months membership for you.

[Kalin KOZHUHAROV]

The Boeshield T-9 just arrived!

How does this Saturday morning (10-13) look for a "Mill degrease
party"? (nothing on the THS calendar so far)

Who's interested to attend?


Kalin.

[Richard Frankum]

On Thu, Aug 9, 2012 at 3:59 PM, Kalin KOZHUHAROV <me.k...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The Boeshield T-9 just arrived!
>
> How does this Saturday morning (10-13) look for a "Mill degrease
> party"? (nothing on the THS calendar so far)

I dunno man, October is a bit too far off to plan. :)
(complete coincidence that the 13th is a Saturday)

> Who's interested to attend?

Just remember that tarp!

>
> Kalin.


--
--Richard Frankum

[Mikele]

I am, but I won't know my schedule until tomorrow I guess (UPS troubles).

at the last meeting we had a discussion on how to prevent milling from messing up the space.

a large tray at the bottom and a possible acrylic encasing were proposed options.

we definitively need at least the tray before proceeding.

On Thu, Aug 9, 2012 at 3:59 PM, Kalin KOZHUHAROV <me.k...@gmail.com> wrote:

Kalin.

[Chris Shannon]

we have a good tarp for this, I will be there at 10.

c

[Mikele]

come with the Bulldog BBQ !

[lauren shannon]

who's smoking?

On Thu, Aug 9, 2012 at 4:08 PM, Chris Shannon <csha...@gmail.com> wrote:

--
We LOVE Food and Wine!

Try my catering company at
www.moonandback.jp

and our restaurant and wine bar
www.kimonowinebar.com

[MRE]

Ill try to be there too.

[Kalin KOZHUHAROV]

On Thu, Aug 9, 2012 at 4:02 PM, Richard Frankum
<richard...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 9, 2012 at 3:59 PM, Kalin KOZHUHAROV <me.k...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> How does this Saturday morning (10-13) look for a "Mill degrease
>> party"? (nothing on the THS calendar so far)
>
> I dunno man, October is a bit too far off to plan. :)
> (complete coincidence that the 13th is a Saturday)
>

I see you need more precision...
>should have been> this Saturday morning (10:00-13:00 JST)
October 13th is written 10/13 in short

By chance 2012-10-13 is also Saturday, LoL

Glad it wasn't interpreted as 10 - 13 = -3 anyway...

Kalin.

[Taylan Ayken]

Maybe degreasing is a good time to talk about usage rules and possible classes? I am planning to come. We can also prepare some sort of poster for usage rules and safety.

---

From: Kalin KOZHUHAROV <me.k...@gmail.com>
To: tokyohac...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 12:50 AM
Subject: Re: [THS:19683] Re: milling machine

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[Kalin KOZHUHAROV]

Hi,

Please bring old _COTTON_ T-shirts, other _COTTON_ clothes for the
degresing if you have.

May be rubber gloves if you prefer to keep your hands clean.

See you later,
Kalin.

[Kalin KOZHUHAROV]

Hmm

On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 8:31 AM, Kalin KOZHUHAROV <me.k...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Please bring old _COTTON_ T-shirts, other _COTTON_ clothes for the
> degresing if you have.
>

I meant old rags that we'll use for cleaning that grease with, of
course wear whatever you like.

Kalin.

[Mikele]

I have some. No gloves. If i'll feel the need tokyu hands is 5 min away.

I got a reminder from the website saying it is tomorrow... Really?

I am behind the corner having breakfast, is ths already open?

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[Torsten Wagner]

cotton underwear....
?!?

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[MRE]

On my way.

[Taylan Ayken]

Sorry guys, body finally gave up today. How did the degreasing go?

---

From: MRE <epre...@gmail.com>
To: tokyohac...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 10:53 AM
Subject: Re: [THS:19713] Re: milling machine

On my way.

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[MRE]

Your double side protoboard is in the cabinet, on top of the box on the right side.

[Taylan Ayken]

OK, thanks!

---

From: MRE <epre...@gmail.com>
To: tokyohac...@googlegroups.com

Cc: Taylan Ayken <taylan...@yahoo.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 5:17 PM
Subject: Re: [THS:19716] Re: milling machine

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/tokyohackerspace/-/Az6IXhogPfMJ.

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[Torsten Wagner]

Sine you guys are just busy to set-up the mill.... how long will it
take until the mill can be used to create this one ?!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=2iZ0WuNvHr8

Totti


On 3 July 2012 00:33, Kalin KOZHUHAROV <me.k...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Do we want that for the new space?
>
> I can donate 1 man immediately to be able to use it occasionally.
>
> Grizzly Industrial Milling Machine - JPY42000 (Roppongi)
> http://tokyo.craigslist.jp/tls/3113922028.html
>
> Kalin.

>
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> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TokyoHackerSpace" group.

[Chris Shannon]

its borked

On Saturday, August 11, 2012, Torsten Wagner wrote:

Sine you guys are just busy to set-up the mill.... how long will it
take until the mill can be used to create this one ?!

HOW TO RIDE KURATAS - Suidobashi heavy industry

[Torsten Wagner]

the mill or the vehicle?
(please note I avoid the term roboter) ;)

Totti

[Kalin KOZHUHAROV]

The mill seems to have manufacturing defect, spindle is drilled
off-center, investigating.

Kalin.

[Torsten Wagner]

uhhhh....
doesn't sound good

[Jam]

I spent some time looking at the mill tonight and I don't see anything defective about it. The clearance way through the main spindle is coarse and a bit uneven but that doesn't affect it's operation. Likewise the sleeve of the chuck is out of kilter but bits mounted in it run true, so again, a cosmetic defect only.

The X bed is loose but that is adjustable. Did it get disassembled during the degreasing? I didn't have time to tune it up so left it as I found it.

Absolutely the most annoying thing about this machine is the motor controller. What nitwit in the name of "safety" designed that interface!? I thought that was the "borked" part until I confirmed in the manual what Mikele told me: it is intended to be that way.

I don't think we have any complaints about this tool. It is not a precision instrument but it is completely workable and well worth what it cost.

- jam

[Chris Shannon]

Jam,
the shaft that the spindle is held in has been bored out off-center. When you run the mill you see the wobble. Which is what happened over the weekend, we then disassembled the shaft components and noticed that the wobble was coming from the spindle that had been bored out off center. A measurement taken of one side of the tube was 8.5mm and on the other side measured 9.0mm. Also, the base of the spindle was not level, which is probably how the shaft was bored off-center. You can see the problem fairly clearly in either of the attached videos. I have written Grizzly and asked for a replacement spindle.

c

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[Mikele]

as a side note, Chris, I couldn't find records from the material forum I was following a few years ago, and is not online anymore, too bad.

but I am pretty sure this is the book that was recommended at the time...
http://kk.org/cooltools/archives/6112
plus is reviewed on CoolTools making it more credible in my eyes :)

in the comments somebody is presenting this:
http://www.europa-lehrmittel.de/titel-en-269-269/mechanical_and_metal_trades_handbook-361/
as a easier to read and good metric companion to the one above.


maybe too much for just handling a mill over a cardboard?

[Mikele]

yesterday night Jad convinced me the machine is usable.
if we get a replacement part, that still nice

I'd be good to check how true or not the actual working bit is
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tudedude/4664871192/

I think we can improvise something without buying more tools, we need a perfectly straight bar...

http://www.tudedude.co.uk/workshop/Tools/Tools%20Main.html

On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 8:27 AM, Chris Shannon <csha...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Chris Shannon]

did the wobble go away, magically?

[Mikele]

no, but we mounted a drill bit and run it close to the edge of the part underneath where the vise mounts... and it looked alright.

also one of Jam points was that mills are not supposed to be perfect, techniques are important to make so that one machine can be used to produce parts of  technology superior to the machine used to make them...

dammit! He is much better at write in English about this stuff.

but again... all was wobbling as before, but not much (if at all) the end of the drill bit.
I would give it a try with a 100% straight bar and a gauge... or just by having it close to the edge of the part underneath as we did yesterday

[Kalin KOZHUHAROV]

On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 10:48 AM, Mikele <him...@gmail.com> wrote:
> but again... all was wobbling as before, but not much (if at all) the end of
> the drill bit.
> I would give it a try with a 100% straight bar and a gauge... or just by
> having it close to the edge of the part underneath as we did yesterday
>

Just drill a hole with a large diameter (6-10mm) in thick metal
(>10mm), then check the hole with the bit if fits tight or can move
around.

If it wobbles then the hole will be larger than the bit; use big bit
so it does not twist; use metal as it is hard.

Let's see what Grizzly replies.

Kalin.

[Jam]

The videos show the same thing I found; that the clearance way
through the main spindle is not perfectly concentric with the
bearing axis.  I assert again: this is a cosmetic defect.  That
passage is only to allow the drawbar to reach fixtures mounted in
the lower taper, and was not bored at all but was formed when the
metal was rough cast and was only "dressed" with no concern for
its concentricity. 

More visible was the runout on the chuck sleeve. That is probably
what drew attention to the clearance way.  But again, the chuck
runs true to within my ability to measure with the tools I had on
hand. (Runout less than 50 microns, perhaps much less?)

I bored two holes 10mm in diameter through the Drill-On-Me board
and had no question about the quality of the results.

Mikele, your English is great and you made the point well: the
advancement of technology requires the ability to make machines
that are more precise than the tools used to make them.  How
else could progress occur?  By devine intervention?  Luck? 

I am satisfied with the performance of the machine. 

If Grizzly decides to replace the non-defective spindle, better
ask them for a better chuck as well, because it has even more
visible wobble on the parts that don't matter.

And think of the advantages. Every klunky project will come with
a ready made excuse: "What do you expect from such crappy tools?"

That is if we agree that the trope "It is the poor craftsman who
blames his tools" shall not be uttered at the Tokyo HackerSpace.

- jam

[Jam]

Here's a fun page about a similar issue with the same model mill:

    http://thehobbyistmachineshop.com/shop2.html

- jam

[Mikele]

I will have to re-read it again to understand all the technical details... most of the English vocabulary for machining is new to me.

anyway, he mention's the Machinery's Handbook (ed. 26) as his reference book :)

- jam

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[AbH Belxjander Draconis Serechai]

And here I am trying to get organized to build a new 3D printer (and
I'll happilly work with anyone else interested in doing the same at
THS as well...)
if anyone is interested... I can at least get to having a functional
frame (I need help with the electronics end of things...)

I also came across an English Student today who may be interested in
obtaining a 3D printer as well...
so the THS may have a market in reprap kits or being a guide for
anyone who makes their own here in Japan.

Jeremy,

P.S. : I now have a smart phone so I can be contacted at my Email
address almost anytime (it is set to manner mode by default!)

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[Mikele]

that's be cool.
both the workshop and the idea of making functional ones that can be sold.

[Torsten Wagner]

I second Kalins idea...
Take a drill and make a hole.... 10mm drill should give a 10mm hole.
BTW. mills should be accurate enough to work in the middle um range.
Thats the accuracy you need if you want to get mechanical stuff
working. Makes not much sens if the accuracy you can achieve is about
0.5mm and honestly never worked with a mill that couldn't perform
10-15 um min. But then toolshops I used so far was always pro stuff
not sure whats normal at the hobbist market.

Anyhow, if someone plans build mechanics stuff, you need a good
accuracy, sure if anyone agrees that this mill is basically to make
holes in plastic e.g. to get front faces for electronic projects than
it do not need that high accuracy.

So get clear about the usage ;)


Totti

[Jam]

No, I think the test should be to drill a hole and see if it comes out
round and the right size.  10mm would be a good size to test. 

Sheesh!

[Chris Shannon]

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/tokyohackerspace/-/sf2YO5bD7IwJ.

[MRE]

Ummm no..
Roundness is not an accuracy test.
If the bit is off center, it will still make a round hole.. but will always be cutting with the side of the bit which sets outside of center.

Sorry I have not been paying much attention to the forums.. dont have daily net access at my sisters place.

Two points:

1: To check the "trueness" of the mill, the only easy way to do this is to get a strong steel wire, and file the end into a needle.
Run the head all the way down, such that the needle touches a  sheet scrap acrylic that has been properly mounted and leveled in the machine.
Manually turn the chuck.
the needle should score a circle in the acrylic.
The smaller the circle, the more accurate the mill.
And, we are looking for a mil or two max.
Why? These things ARE made to run two and one mil end-mill bits. With a large wobble, you will break these small bits very easily.
If you want to cut a 1 or 2 mil hole, you need a wobble of LESS than that.

2: So, in my opinion, having seen the mill in operation, having seen professionals running mills for 3 years, 5 days a week... long talks with a machinist with over 40 years of experience, and operated a few mills myself (not much, but enough to be dangerous) I would say that the manufacturer should in fact be contacted in given the chance to correct the defect.

Regardless of how the mill was manufactured, the part is still defective. The only question is: HOW defective? It needs to be measured much more accurately than a visual indexing test on the corner of a part.

[MRE]

Exactly.

I can say that the mill is accurate enough for some fun quick and dirty cut up work.
But it is not machine shop ready.
If we are just cutting up some face panels, and going mostly off of visual, then yes, its fine.
And, Jam is right in that technique has a more to do with good milling than the accuracy of the machine itself.

In order of importance:
A tight and slop-less X/Y/Z motion is more important than
a centered and aligned chuck shaft

But, to be useable for precision work or even small parts machining, it needs to be repaired.
First, the shaft must be centered.
Second, it must be aligned vertically on the X and Y. Otherwise, you might hit the mark, but still drill a hole that is off angle and comes out the other end off mark
These things are very important to get right.

AS for milling technique that can compensate for SOME of this:
* When milling a flat surface, you can only compensate so much because: A bad chuck shaft will leave one EDGE of the endmill bit doing all the work. This edge will quickly wear down, and it must be ran much faster in relation to the movement of the part in order to still get a smooth surface, as compared to a properly aligned bit, which can run slower, and mill smoother.

* When milling on an edge (like the side of your finger pushing through pudding), the bit needs to be aligned vertically on the X and Y. The consequences of it not being so:
- You cant mill channel in the material. One edge of the channel will always be slanted inward, while the opposite edge is slanted outward.
- The bottom face affected by the bit will also be slanted, if the bit is off axis 90 degrees from the direction of travel
- The bottom face will be 'dished' if the bit is slanted in the direction of travel.

* When the mill is aligned vertically on the X and Y, but off center:
- The edge of the bit furthest outside of center will be doing all of the work. This will cause that side of the bit to dull quickly, while the remaining sides will remain sharp.
- The mill will have to be running the bit much faster than expected in order to move the material through at the normally expected rate.
- since the edges of a mill bit are a helical cut, only one small portion of the helical will actually be working, thus somewhere along the edge will cut well, while most of the bit will not cut at all, or hardly at all. This will lead to considerable warping of material as the bit "leads" into the material. Essentially, the bit flexes as you try to push it through material, and will cut reluctantly, rather than smoothly.

* When drilling:
To a degree, this is the only milling process that is easily compensated for by technique.
- One MUST know the inaccuracy of the mill. If we know we have a 2 mil offset (the mill is 2 mills from center) then we have a 4 mil diameter circle. This means that even in magical world where we can have a drill bit .000001 mils in diameter, the smallest hole we can mil is 4 mils.
Knowing that, we can, to a degree, compensate for it, so long as we never wish to drill smaller than our smallest mill bit PLUS 4 mils. So, if the smallest bit I have is 2mils, The smallest hole I can RELIABLY drill is 6 mils.

Why "RELIABLY" ? Because a drill bit has a tendency to self-center.. which means with a flexible bit, we could get 'lucky' but will never get a perfect hole.

So, how do we get a perfect hole with an imperfect mill?
By using an endmil bit as a drill bit. The endmil bit strength is superior to the drill bit, and has a flat face, designed to cut and lift metal off the surface, like a cheese slicer, rather than drilling.
This means that the end mill will always cut a circular hole. However, the diameter of the hole cut will be the diameter of the mill PLUS the diameter of slop in the mill.
So, a 10 mil diameter endmil in a machine with 2 mils of slop will give us a PERFECT 12 mil hole.

Again, this ASSUMES that the mill is only out of center, but is perfectly aligned vertically.

All in all, there are not much you can do as far as technique to cover the fact that a mill is badly aligned.

On Wednesday, August 15, 2012 6:48:52 PM UTC+9, Totti wrote:

[Chris Shannon]

Grizzly has said they will send us a new part if we provide them the serial no# and also order info from the original owner. Kalin has tried to contact him (bump.) Once we have this info and provide it they will ship us a new spindle.

Chris

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