I have a suggestion to have a cleaner inbox

[Usmar A Padow]

Hi. I know we have tried IRC before. But to be honest it failed and the reason is because we can't all be online at the same time and IRC is not persistent. Which means we miss each other and thus we never have a consistent chat.

I am totally new to it but I think I found a solution. Instead of using IRC we can try using jabber. Which seems to be persistent. Which means we should be able to join the chat at anytime we are free.
I took the liberty of creating a Tokyo hackerspace room. I will of course hand it over to whomever is supposed to be a moderator.

So. There are jabber clients for all platforms. I am using it on my iPhone

Here is the channel information:
Room: tokyohackerspace
Host: conference.talkonaut.com

You may have to go to https://register.jabber.org to make an account manually as I did.

Ok. Let me know what you guys think
I think this way we can keep the chatter on jabber while talking about anything important on the google groups and thus decreasing the amount of stuff in our email inboxes

[James Andrews]

I guess I don't see the problem.  When there's a thread I don't want to see anymore, I typically add it to a filter to it based on subject and tell it to mark as read and archive.  inbox stays clean and only threads I am interested in participating in come in, or new ones.  I have enough applications open on my computer at any one time due to work 4 different browsers, editors, photoshop. gitbox, mysql admin.  I'd rather just have it just come through one source than having an additional avenue to check for something.

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[James Andrews]

To add onto my thought, wouldn't just having 2 THS google groups be better?   One thing I like about the google group is it's archival.  if something is said in google groups you can go back and find it a year later if you need be, you lose that if you go to something like Jabber.  So why not have a ths group for non chatter, and one for chatter (that's what another group I am in does using forums.  Forum for club stuff, and one for nonsense.  Then you can tell google just not to notify you via email for the one that is for nonsense, and if you want to read it  you can go to google groups.

[Usmar A Padow]

Well. I think jabber is better fit for both real time chats and non real time chats.

I rather have a chat environment where I can see everything like on IRC when I am chatting real time. But as I said in my previous post, IRC is no good for Ths cause we don't all agree on a time to chat. Jabber seems to be a compromise between both needs.

[lauren shannon]

I think folks that want to chat about a topic can move it to there if
they like. but I think most of us are ok with the list as is....?

Lauren

We LOVE Food and Wine!

Try my catering company at
www.moonandback.jp

and our restaurant and wine bar
www.kimonowinebar.com

[Torsten Wagner]

Googles archive is both a blessing and a curse imho. Using something
else like Jabber or IRC to have something for a more causal chat would
be good.

Sure an archive is nice but often chats are just a continue discussion
about something which happened before on a Tuesday meeting. A year
later it's completely out of context and archiving does not really
help. Sometimes its the ranting of someone being drunk ;), sometimes
its "misused" for rather profane group messages... "Coming to space in
15 min.".
It doesn't actually matter if Jabber or IRC will be used. Important
would be to move a critical mass of THS users over, to really use it.

The last attempt with the IRC channel ended up to be visit by max 4-5 people.

Esp. those members who are very present on this mailing list would
need to use the other service so other and new people get the idea to
use the service to contact them for more causal talks or
group-addressed short messages, instead of using the mailing list.

Google actually uses the jabber protocol for there gtalk service. Not
sure but people with a google account might be able to use a jabber
service directly.

Totti

[James Andrews]

To me chat rooms should be for real time chat.  I only ever go on them when I want an answer from someone now.  Say I go on jabber and ask a question.  I have to go back to jabber and constantly check jabber to see if there was a response, now let's say a week goes by and I was unable to check jabber while everyone else is babbling on about whatever.  I now have to go back in history and try to see if anyone answered my question.  It's time consuming and makes no sense.

If I ask a question here, I start a new topic.  I then get a response or I don't.  I know it because my inbox told me so.  I don't have to waste time trying to slosh through a chat feed.  If you just want a place to shoot the breeze fine, but I don't think much of the conversation that has happened here (at least since I joined the list) was general conversation.  Most were questions about things going on, or questions on where to find things, or do something which in my opinion deserves the ability to be easily found, archived, and not get shoe horned in between people just "shooting the breeze".

[Usmar A Padow]

If you own a smart phone you could be notified when someone answered on jabber

[James Andrews]

And if I am busy doing something, having the phone notify me every 5 minutes of other chatter I don't care about.  No thanks.

[MRE]

My 2 yen:

I think you oversimplified the reasons behind lack of usage of IRC within THS.
There could be and are many reasons things like that do not really work out:

1. as you said, we dont all access at agreed upon times
2. as you said, it does not archive
3. no one uses IRC!!!!  (seriously. If you were to survey how many people at THS use it, only a few hands would go up. REMEMBER using it, or having used it in the past is not the same thing as currently using it).
4. most of us are way to busy to sit on IRC
5. when we are free, sitting on IRC is not something we want to do
6. even when I am sitting at my computer for any length of time, IRC would be a distraction from other more important things
7. dont have access to our own computer consistently throughout the day
8. dont want to be constantly checking our phones
9. it would be frowned upon in our jobs
10. we have no way of knowing when people are going to be on it, and thus would be standing around waiting on people to show up.

IRC was never conceived for such situations. AS most chat programs were not conceived for such situations.

Heck, I only turn on skype on my mobile when I get an email from my sister, so we can have a phone call. At home, it is on all the time, but out of my hundreds of contacts (Including my own brother) I only talk to one or two people, while gaming.

The vast majority of people do not want these sorts of intrusive social media things invading free time. Twitter sort of surprised me. I still remain an antitwittite, but its popular with most of the rest of the world. Odd considering how invasive it can be.

In my opinion, the google group has always and will remain for some time to come the one and only solid stream of communication within the group.

Where else can you type long ass posts, knowing that those who will be interested will be able to read it ON THEIR OWN TIME, when they get free?

The best thing to do to keep your inbox clean is to set your google group settings to Daily Digest mode. I get one or two emails a day, at most, with teasers for each topic, all in one email.

Or you can set it to None.

And, I really dont mind the archiving of off topic, random and sometimes inappropriate postings. It shows our history as a group, documents everything, and adds to the seasoned flavor that is THS. I suspect that many hackerspaces have the same concerns, but ultimately leave things as they were.

[MRE]

Where I can see more realtime stuff being useful:

IF someone wanted to use an IRC channel as a sort of server and a simple app to fetch the use status of THS. The app just opens the channel and pings a bot, which responds with a message like "MRE, Akiba and Lauren are at THS right now."
IT would essentially be a virtual reflection of the real life situation in the building. When you come in, you 'sign in' to the channel, either via the phone app, or a console on the wall.

[Usmar A Padow]

Well. We can use meet up and RSVP if we are going to go to Ths

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[James Andrews]

Using meetup requires a an event to be scheduled.  A better option is just a website with checkin capabilities, but that's off topic.

[Torsten Wagner]

Just want to add that you might misunderstood the use of IRC.

Its not a replacement for a mailing list. Its much older then anything
branded "social web".
Its simply a very basic level to communicate in REAL-TIME, developed
at a time where twitter, facebook, google+, forums, Skype, gtalk, etc.
where all unknown, heck, even the Internet as we know it today was
unknown.

Sure, its not appropriate method to use e.g. for you, during giving a class.

Its simply a space where THS members could meet and chat without
spamming the list.
E.g. Taylan and I had some IRC sessions over the last months and I
guess it would had annoy most here if we would had misuse the mailing
list to constantly write forth and back single phrases and sentences
about debugging a certain problem in a toolchain.

BTW. IRC can be logged and IRC provides notification too. Hence a
program on a smartphone would remain quite, until someone is
specifically addressing you.

Again, it's not about replacing the list or taking anything away from
it, it's an addition to be used for cases where the mailing list isn't
fitting.
My usage of IRC is to join a channel with a specific topic, ask my
questions, get help, answer a few other questions if I can and leave.
Maybe THS does not have enough people to get a critical mass of people
on IRC in a way that one could always find someone else for help.
Nevertheless, If I have a certain problem and I believe others might
be able to help, I could write a mail to the list.... "Can't do FOO on
BAR let's meet on IRC"
And all the rants and raves could happen there. The final solution can
be posted on the list again.
The point is that others need to be aware of IRC and be willing to use it.

Greetings

Totti

And IRC users are not jobless bored old-school hackers who hang-out
24/7 in front of a PC waiting for someone to response ;)
Facebook, Google+, Twitter, etc. are much more time-wasting imho.

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[Nava Whiteford]

> The point is that others need to be aware of IRC and be willing to use it.

Is there an IRC channel that people sometimes use? I saw a reference to #tokyohackerspace on freenode
but no-one seems to be there.

[Nava Whiteford]

> Is there an IRC channel that people sometimes use? I saw a reference to #tokyohackerspace on freenode
> but no-one seems to be there.

Ah ##tokyohackerspace...

[Taylan Ayken]

I log on there when I am logging into Dangerous Prototypes. Recently I do not have time for IRC, so I was just logging into for debugging sessions with Totti.

---

From: Nava Whiteford <n...@sgenomics.org>
To: tokyohac...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Monday, November 12, 2012 5:48 PM
Subject: Re: [THS:21166] Re: I have a suggestion to have a cleaner inbox

> Is there an IRC channel that people sometimes use? I saw a reference to #tokyohackerspace on freenode
> but no-one seems to be there.

Ah ##tokyohackerspace...

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[MRE]

Totti,

You see my beautiful face and mistake me for 20 years old. Thank you! ;)

But, I am old enough and have been using computers long enough to remember when IRC did not exist. BBS was the way.
I used IRC quite a lot when it became popular, but not until I had my own phone line for dial-up service  X(

So, I have no misunderstandings of the use of IRC.
While there may be logging locally (I often enabled it), this is not the same as logging for all, available online. but that is now a service available as well.

Maybe I had some misunderstandings as to the proposal being made, in reference to the using IRC in relation to this googlegroup. So, I misunderstood it to mean that we should all install an IRC client and use it, because it will somehow solve a problem (I still don't think it would) we all apparently face (which not all of us agree is even an issue).

So, for my misunderstanding as to the original proposition, I apologize.

To the proposition as I now understand it:
* Ok. A real-chat can sometimes be very helpful for members.
* In such a case, spamming up the google group with conversation only two or three people need to be a part of would be annoying.
* Keeping this stuff out of the inbox or keitai message box of said people would be beneficial.

But:
* couldn't those people send each other a mail to decide their meeting time, and ALSO choose the medium?
* So, example: Akiba says "Hey we need to chat." and I say "lets use skype." He says "No, lets use IRC." well ok.. its up to us to figure out what to do next.
* It seems like a "once in a blue moon" situation, in which there are a multitude of possible solutions. All parties involved can figure out the 'common denominator' rather than expecting everyone to install something new, they will never use again.

I cant tell you how many times someone convinced me I needed to install such and such chat program, just for them, and I found I hated it, and only used it for that one person. eventually I just give up on that one person.

Even Taylan and you Totti admit that you only used it a few times, for a very specific sort of situation.


And, no, IRC users are not all jobless, bored, old school hackers(??  conspiracy theorists? script kiddies?.. or just plain SCHLEBS) who hang out in front of their PC 24/7.
But I have found that the vast majority of those who use it weekly or daily, *often* are.

As a matter of business and habit, you will find a lot of old sysops (who's job it is to be at a computer desk all day, looking at boring screens, and quite frankly need some entertainment at their jobs). Awesome. Keep the dream alive.
Yes, you can also find lots of hobbyists. Great for asking questions. Especially about stuff you don't every day. Antique computers or some non-mainstream hobbies. Way to share your passion and knowledge.
And you can find nostalgic people. And sometimes a young, enthusiastic and curious person trying to study the social media of the past. This is all really great. And for these reasons, I dont want to bash on IRC and the people who use it.

But if someone is consistent and reliably 'there'.... and I mean 'there'.. not just idling on their home PC while they are at work.. or throwing up a bot while they clean the house.. then you have to question what it is they do all day long. I mean.. thats what MY life was like when I was one of those people.

[MRE]

Even Taylan and you Totti admit that you only used it a few times, for a very specific sort of situation.

I should clarify this: I mean the TokyoHackerSpace channel, not IRC in general. You only used the THS channel for a few very specific instances. Not on a daily or weekly basis, just to sit around and chat.

[Taylan Ayken]

We actually used Dangerous Prototypes channel as the problem was related to one of their products. :)

Well, normally I have a schedule. I log into it at home, about three days a week. I chat with folks in Netherlands, have trout wars with Sjaak and Ian. Do some problem solving. The problem is I was really busy these couple of weeks, haven't been able to log into Dangerous Prototypes too.

So for other folks out there, if you want to join, just join. There is usually me, Totti, and sometimes another person (Jeremy maybe?). It didn't reach the critical mass as like Dangerous Prototypes channel did but I never assumed it was going to be used a lot anyhow.

---

From: MRE <epre...@gmail.com>
To: tokyohac...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Monday, November 12, 2012 9:28 PM
Subject: Re: [THS:21172] Re: I have a suggestion to have a cleaner inbox

Even Taylan and you Totti admit that you only used it a few times, for a very specific sort of situation.

I should clarify this: I mean the TokyoHackerSpace channel, not IRC in general. You only used the THS channel for a few very specific instances. Not on a daily or weekly basis, just to sit around and chat.

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[MRE]

I squat corrected.
Sorry.
I am a dirty rotter liar! ;) heh.

[Torsten Wagner]

On 12 November 2012 21:24, MRE <epre...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Totti,
>
> You see my beautiful face and mistake me for 20 years old. Thank you! ;)

It was more your youth voice and your innocent eyes...
And no not 20, since I know you are legally allow to drink in Japan, I
was assuming 21.

Well basically we agree, if people like to chat, THS provides a IRC
channel. Whether people want to use it over
Skype/Gtalk/Jabber/whatever it's there own decision. Just there is a
##tokyohackerspace channel ready in case people want to use it and it
might be (more often as some believe) the smallest nominator people
could agree on, taken that it does not require any
registration/membership/etc..

Using some IRC robots to give certain real time status would be nice
because that would maybe bring more people into visiting the IRC
channel from time to time.

Totti

[MRE]

Agreed. Makes sense.
If I dont need to install anything new or register for something, its good.

Yeah i think space nptificatins via irc would be an interesting and compelling use case. I doesnt demand any particular app/software tool.

[Usmar A Padow]

This is the exact reason why I am suggesting jabber over IRC. Because it is possible to see all the posts other people have made and leave a post of your own for other people to see when they have time. Otherwise it is identical to IRC

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[MRE]

Look at the the welcome message at the top of the google group.