nimi sona

[Ĵameŝ]

ali o, toki! I've decided to start a thread on this mailing list/group/forum/whatever, because isn't that what it's for? I'm janJamen on forums.tokipona.org, by the way.

Right, so I've been trying to develop a list of scientific terms in tp, not really for any practical use, just for fun and as an exercise (toki pona's often been compared to a 'language game', as most of you probably know.)

mi wile e ni: mi pana e nimi ni tawa kulupu ni. sin la mi wile e ni: kulupu ni li pana e nimi ante e nimi namako e nimi sin.

I've come up with 9 terms for various main branches of sciences (and math), and some specific terms relating to a few of those branches. Most of them are pretty straightforward.

I've put question marks next to terms I'm not very happy with.

sona pan (biology) ('pan' with its sort-of unofficial meaning of 'life')

soweli lili (cell)

pipi lili (infectious bacteria, infection, virus, contagion)

insa pi soweli lili (organelles)

soweli lili ike (cancerous or otherwise "sick" cell)

sona pi ijo lili (chemistry)

ijo lili - atom

? ijo lili ike - molecule

ijo lili lili - subatomic particle

? tu pi ijo lili - atomic bond

ijo lili telo - Hydrogen (got this idea from German and Anglish "Wasserstoff/Waterstuff") (note this specifically refers to the element or a particular atom of Hydrogen, I figure "kon something" would work when referring to Hydrogen gas)

ijo wan pi insa ijo lili - proton

ijo tu pi insa ijo lili - neutron (I'm a bit unsure about just numbering proton vs. neutron)

ijo lili pi pali ala - noble gases (see note above for Hydrogen for all of the following) (their names come from the most prominent colour they glow when an electric current is passed through them)

ijo lili loje pi pali ala - Helium

ijo lili jelo loje pi pali ala - Neon

ijo lili loje laso pi pali ala - Argon

ijo lili walo pi pali ala - Krypton

ijo lili laso pi pali ala - Xenon

?? sona lon (physics) (science of movement)

pilin sona pi lon anpa (theory of gravity)

jan Isaka Nuton - Isaac Newton

sona nanpa (mathematics)

sona toki (linguistics)

kalama lili - phoneme

sona pi kalama lili - Phonetics

pilin sona pi Sapi-Wopo - Sapir-Whorf hypothesis

jan Noma Sonsiki - Noam Chomsky

? (sona pi) ma wan (pi) nimi (X) - etymology (with "sona pi", referring to the study of the history of words, without and with pi and a word in stead of X, refers to the etymology of a specific word)

nasin sitelen - orthography

sona ma (geography)

sona kiwen (geology)

sona jan (anthropology)

? sona pi ma mun (astronomy)

ma mun - outer space

jan Kaliliejo - Galileo Galilee

mun lili - stars besides Sol (this isn't really my own invention)

? mun ante - any celestial body

ante pi lon sike - orbital eccentricity

Please reply with criticisms, suggestions, or anything!

[Matthew Martin]

(sorry for double send, just noticed that gmail by default had me
relying only to the and not the group)

pona a! tenpo ni la mi tawa kulupu pi mama sin tawa kama sona e nasin
pi jan lili sin. I'm off to new parents class, so didn't read that
close, but I would point you at jan Sonja's work on astronomy:

http://en.tokipona.org/wiki/Talk:mun

For the elements, I suppose a tp chemist would want something short so
that would be a lot of arbitrary elements & types of matter like ijo
akesi and the like.



2013/1/10 Ĵameŝ <james...@sympatico.ca>:

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[jan KoAla]

pona a! mi sona e ni: tenpo pini la jan Mato li pali e lipu pi nimi pi sona toki. taso tenpo ni la mi ken ala lukin e ona.

o lon pona,
jan KoAla

[Matthew Martin]

>pona a! mi sona e ni: tenpo pini la jan Mato li pali e lipu pi nimi pi sona toki. taso tenpo ni la mi ken ala lukin e ona

(cool! I know this: previously jan Mato made a page of words of
linguistics. But I can't see it.)

Oh. On first read I thought you said a site was down. maybe

"taso tenpo ni la mi ken ala *alasa* e ona" - Now I can't hunt it
down, can't find it.

This came out of discussions on the yahoo mailing list (mirrored on forum)

This blog post has some suggestions for linguistic jargon-- I'm sure
there are better options for some of these:
http://www.suburbandestiny.com/?p=272


2013/1/19 jan KoAla <jmba...@gmail.com>:

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[jan KoAla]

I thought about using kama lukin too, but I decided on just lukin in the end. I often forget the "new" words like alasa, but that would've been better. I think you hit the nail on the head when you wrote that toki pona is much easier to produce than understand!

On some forum I saw toki pona likened to Charades, which I feel is apt. A lot of waving your hands around hoping the other person understands you!

More on topic, is there an organized list of jargon words that are more or less accepted? I know there exist bits and pieces a bit everywhere, and you have the corpus, but I'm thinking of something a bit more practical, or just a list of all these jargon suggestions in an easy to scan format.

Related to this mailing list, I think it would be fun to try to have a discussion only in toki pona without switching to English. It might just fall apart, but it'd be fun, and well, that's important when doing something silly like toki pona.

o lon pona!

[Matthew Martin]

>More on topic, is there an organized list of jargon words that are more or less accepted? I know there exist bits and pieces a bit everywhere, and you have the corpus, but I'm thinking of something a bit more practical, or just a list of all these jargon suggestions in an easy to scan format.

Even jan Sonja called her two word phrases of a particular meaning
"unofficial," jan Wiko (o lape lon ma moli) made a passionate argument
in favor of not memorizing phrases & using them like words-- I suppose
he meant that if a single word wasn't enough, one would coin a new
appropriate phrase on the spot. So in jan Wiko's style, jan pona
would be jan pona for your friends, and jan pi kulupu sama for cronies
(friends of wicked politicians) and so on.

One thing we don't have is toki pona specific jargon yet. I find
myself using phrase like "pi-chains" "e-chains" "head-less noun phrase
(for phrases that seem to mean the same thing when you switch noun and
modifier). There isn't a good word for kama/tawa, although I finally
read a reasonable description of serial verbs in creoles and suspect
that kama/tawa are like those.

re: toki pona only chatting/ too-much-meta
Steer the conversation to something where toki pona can succeed. Too
bad so many people lon ma pi toki pona sona e toki Inli, since they
ken kepeken e toki Inli and avoid the pali mute of working out
understandable phrases that are just hard to express. Or use
diglossia (o toki kepeken nasin toki tu) -- in the Philippines and
India, this nasin toki is routine and given everyone a good work out
for nasin toki tu ale.

Or if people provided glossaries as they wrote, it would be easier to
stick in toki pona (and not switch back to a natural language to clear
up stuff)

Anyhow, here is some pure toki pona:

moli ala mi:

tenpo ensun tu wan la jan lili pi meli mi en mi li kama. jan lili li
suli. unta pi meli mi li lili. ken la pali ni li pilin ike kin tawa
meli mi. taso ni li ike ala: tenpo open pi jan lili li tenpo lili.
ken la ni li tenpo suno wan taso. tenpo open pi jan lili li pini la
tenpo li kama musi kin.


2013/1/20 jan KoAla <jmba...@gmail.com>:

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[jan KoAla]

Well, to be frank, I don't really care about the "idea" of toki pona. I'm more interested in a pragmatic list so to speak, as I think Ĵamaŝ is (why else create this thread). I think the debate just goes back to toki pona as a game versus toki pona as a language, and it depends on what hat you have on whether or not these words are "official" or not.

I think your idea of a mixed language is exactly what would happen if toki pona were to be spoken for any extended period of time. I find it pretty interesting how easy it is to follow your mixed up toki pona/english. ken la mi will open e using it kin!

The glossaries idea is an interesting concept. I'm imagining something similar to how in an academic paper you have to define your terms before delving into the subject rahter than a list at the back of the book though. Although both are probably equally valid.

As for the toki pona purism:

tenpo esun tu wan kama anu pini la meli sina en sina li kama jo e jan lili sina tu? ale la ni li pona mute! tenpo kama la sina pana ala pana sona e toki pona tawa jan lili sina. a a a!

o lon pona!

[Ĵameŝ]

lipu pi nimi mun li pona mute tawa mi, jan Mato o! pilin namako mute en pilin ante mute li lon. (Using 'namako' as 'exciting, stimulating')

I agree with the idea of a running glossary, and this used alongside pure toki pona could actually be fairly easy to follow, I think.

>moli ala mi: 
>
>tenpo ensun tu wan la jan lili pi meli mi en mi li kama. jan lili li 
>suli. unta pi meli mi li lili. ken la pali ni li pilin ike kin tawa 
>meli mi.  taso ni li ike ala: tenpo open pi jan lili li tenpo lili. 
>ken la ni li tenpo suno wan taso.  tenpo open pi jan lili li pini la 
>tenpo li kama musi kin. 

pona a! mi wile e ni: moli ala pona tawa sina en meli sina en jan lili sina.

tu la nimi 'unta' li seme? sina wile toki e nimi unpa anu seme?

Also, isn't it a bit morbid using 'moli ala' for life? It's sort of implying that the default state for a person is death-- which could be argued for, I'm no philosopher. I just find it slightly disconcerting, but maybe that's just me.

re: diglossia/toki pona taso

mi pilin que nous pourrons confuser la situation plus par pali e ni: toki en beaucoup de toki mélangé avec toki pona. On ken even ajouter a third toki, aŭ another lingvo namako, for musi d'extra! :D

[Matthew Martin]

yup-- pakala, I meant lupa-- baby has a rather small exit to get through.

re: moli ala
There was a thread on the forums a while back-- the options for "life"
are moli ala, a new root word, tacking a new meaning onto an existing
word, eg. pan, or getting metaphorical and using a word like "wawa"
(power, fast, quick), as in the English phrase "The quick and the
dead",.... and any other ideas?

moli ala feels okay if you think that maltrinki feels okay, imho.

re: jan li ken kepeken toki pona en toki ale
musi kin! It's like a thinking man's creole. Tres pona.

NB to Everyone- Point of administrativia
I turned on open enrollment, people were having problems getting
registered. If this leads to spam, I'll go back to manually approving
new accounts.

Another point of administrativia if you're using a regular mail client
and not the web interface-- double check that you reply to
toki...@googlegroups.com and just to the original sender (e.g.
jan...@yahoo.com)

2013/1/20 Ĵameŝ <james...@sympatico.ca>:

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[John CLIFFORD]

Still feeling my way here, so this may not turn out quite right.
1.  I like many of the tech terms suggested, but I dislike making them up beforehand.  I like terms that grow organically from the actual situation.  Along that line also, I dislike lists of "approved" phrases (like 'jan pona' for "friend"), since a) they have other uses and fixing them tends to interfer with that and b) sometimes, even often, there are better expressions (simpler, more to the point) for the notion in a given context.  If we learn long phrases, we lose the ability to see what other phrases mean (as I know to my detriment)  and to see telling ways of doing things.  It is useful to have the lists as examples of how people have solved problems, but not as rules for usage.  We used to have a list but it got too big and was inhibiting creativity on the one hand and making people embarrassed or defensive about alternates -- which were often better in their context.
2.  The most successful word for life in the sense intended is 'lon'.  It doesn't always work (of course), but it does fill this and many similar cases. 
3.  'namako' for "exciting" is shaky, since it also means "superfluous", but that is a matter that will no doubt get settled down once the word gets some usage.
4.  Inevitably, much of the chat on any conlang channel is about the conlang.  And that metadiscussion almost always goes into L1, since questions are about the meanings of expressions and the like.  We could do pure grammar in tp, but it doesn't seem worth it for now, especially since there are not many questions of that sort.  Still it would be nice to have one tp taso channel.
5. 'alasa' really does seem to be about the looking for, not the finding, which probably comes down to 'kama lukin' generally or even 'kama tawa (prep)'.

[janMato]

When learning tp initially, I found it useful to memorize the set phrases, it gave me a good feel for the "derivational" strategies.  For example:

Two ways to say to fart:

jan li pana e kon ike  - jan Sonja used this strategy

jan li kon ike - This seems equally plausible

lon = life seems to work best for 

sona pi lon en lon ale en ale li seme? nanpa MMT.

What is the meaning of life, the universe and everything? 42

Is he still alive?

jan li lon?  One could answer yes to this even if he was dead.