DIES DOMINI - A Question for all Catholics.
Michael Scheifler
14. In the first place, therefore, Sunday is the day of rest because it is
the day "blessed" by God and "made holy" by him, set apart from the
other days to be, among all of them, "the Lord's Day".
Perhaps some scholarly Catholic out there could point out for us all
where in Scripture:
- God blessed Sunday?
- God made Sunday holy?
- God set apart Sunday as "the Lord's Day?"
You will not find Sunday, the first day, in the following verses,
you will only find the seventh-day Sabbath, which is Saturday.
Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it:
because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God:
in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter,
thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger
that is within thy gates:
Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea,
and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD
blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
So just where is the "thus saith the Lord" for Sunday holiness?
Michael Scheifler
Bible Light Homepage
http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/
* (Libertarius)
writes:
by men? To Friday or Sunday or even Tursday in honor of the god of
THUNDER?
Libertarius
*DON'T CONFUSE FICTION WITH REALITY*
MyLifeForGod
Scripture.... Blah, blah, blah...
Do you mean to imply that just because the law of gravity is not in
scripture, it is ok for me to deny that gravity exists? Truth can be
known--------independent of scripture.
Jesus said that if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off.
Jesus said that if your eye causes you to sin, poke it out.
Why don't you follow those scriptures? They are in the Bible.
Now to answer your question...
There are at least 3 reasons the Lords day was changed (yes, changed) from
Saturday to Sunday by (who?????) the APOSTLES!! Do the APOSTLES have any
authority? Sadly, I suppose you have more authority than the apostles.
1. They changed it to honor Christ's ressurection from the dead on Sunday
morning
2. The decent of the Holy Spirit gave life to the Church on Pentecost
Sunday.
3. The change was made to impress upon the minds of the people the
transition from the Old Law to the New Law.
St. Augustine, writing in the 4th century, wrote "The Apostles and their
contemporaries sanctioned the dedication of Sunday to the worship of God"
In the 2nd century, Tertullian wrote "We, as tradition has taught us,
observe the day of the Lord's resurrection."
around 107 A.D. St. Ignatius wrote "If we still live according to Jewish
observances, we confess that we do not accept the grace of Christ. Those
who once lived according to the Old Law have come to a new hope, no longer
observing the Jewish Sabbath, but the Lord's day, on which our life rose
from the dead."
salvebooks
day of the week, Sunday (Luke 24:1) and Pentecost "when the days of
Pentecost were accomplished" - or 50 days from the celebration of the Jewish
Passover. In the year of Our Lord's death that day fell on the first day of
the week, Sunday. (Acts 2:1-4) Tradition since then has preserved Sunday as
the Lord's day.
Michael Scheifler
> Now...YOU show me in Holy Scripture where it says, "...Saturday...".
Alan, can prove to me from scripture the resurrection was on a Sunday?
How do you know that it was? The word "Sunday does not appear in
scripture either. Consider these verses carefully:
Mat 28:1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first
day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.
Luke 23:56 And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments;
and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.
Luke 24:1 Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning,
they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared,
and certain others with them.
Luke 24:2 And they found the stone rolled away from the sepulchre.
So, if the resurrection was on Sunday, the first day of the week,
then what precisely was the previous day?
Michael
Dianne Birtley
In the Catholic Chatechism there are many references to the Lords Day. These will
be very surprising because it allows us to understand where the Bible stands on
the issue and where the whole Sunday thing came from:
Page 330 Section 2174-2188 ... The Lords Day, the day of Resurrection, the day of
Christians, is our day. It is called the Lords day because on it the Lord rose
victorious to the Father. If pagans call it the "day of the sun," we willingly
agree, for today the light of the world is raised, Today is revealed the sun of
justice with healing in his rays.
Next, concerning the Sabbath:
Page 580 section 2172: God's action is a model for human action. If God rested
and was refreshed on the seventh day, man too ought to rest...
section 2173: The Gospel reports many incidents when Jesus was accused of
violating the Sabbath law. But Jesus never fails to respect the holiness of this
day.... The Sabbath is the day of the Lord of mercies and a day to honor God.
"The Son Of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath."Mk 2:28.
Lastly in the Catechism on page 581 it continues with a quote from St. Justin, I
Apol. 67:PG 6 429 and 432.
We all gather on the day of the sun, for it is the first day {after the jewish
sabbath, but also the first day] when God, separating matter from darkness made
the world; and on this same day, Jesus Christ our Saviour rose from the dead.
There are so many more verses to show what the Catholics changed the day of
worship, and the references to the pagan worship of the sun. The whole world
seems to be following the traditions of man, rather than the word and teachings of
Jesus Christ and God the Father.
Michael Scheifler wrote:
Dianne Birtley
MyLifeForGod wrote:
> Now to answer your question...
>
> There are at least 3 reasons the Lords day was changed (yes, changed) from
> Saturday to Sunday by (who?????) the APOSTLES!! Do the APOSTLES have any
> authority? Sadly, I suppose you have more authority than the apostles.
>
I cannot find anywhere in the Bible where the apostles said the day was
changed. I can't find anywhere thta they regarded Sunday or the first day of
the week more than the Sabbath. I cannot find that they made Sunday holy. If
you can, please let me know.
Dianne Birtley
and teachings of God.
salvebooks wrote:
> the week, Sunday. (Acts 2:1-4) Tradition since then has preserved Sunday as
> the Lord's day.
Theodore M. Seeber
> I cannot find anywhere in the Bible where the apostles said the day was
> changed. I can't find anywhere thta they regarded Sunday or the first day of
> the week more than the Sabbath. I cannot find that they made Sunday holy. If
> you can, please let me know.
Do you think that the only records of the Apostles or of Jesus Christ are
in the Bible?
What a strange idea.
Ted
mailto:seebe...@bigfoot.com
http://www.teleport.com/~seebert
If you believe in government of the people, for the people, by the people,
and in fact no separation between people and government, click on the
above link.
Edward Thorne
teachings of
>Jesus Christ and God the Father.
So, you don't believe that Christ rose from the dead. Or, maybe you are
a Judaizer?
Don't you know that the church made the change in the lifetime of the
Apostles?
Or doesn't it matter what the Apostles did?
* * * * *
St Paul, traveller of God, pray for us.
--Ed
* * * * *
St Paul, traveller of God, pray for us.
--Ed
Alan Craft
<snip>
>Perhaps some scholarly Catholic out there could point out for us all
>where in Scripture:
>
> - God blessed Sunday?
> - God made Sunday holy?
> - God set apart Sunday as "the Lord's Day?"
>
>You will not find Sunday, the first day, in the following verses,
>you will only find the seventh-day Sabbath, which is Saturday.
I attend Vigil Mass...on Saturday. Who'da thunk it?
Edward Thorne
<dianne....@shaw.wave.ca> writes:
>
>The Bible says that men will regard tyhe tradition of men rather that
>and teachings of God.
So, you call action taken by the Apostles, using their Christ-given
authority to bind and to loose, a tradition of man.
Interesting. But since you won't listen even to the church, why should
we not consider you as the heathen and publican?
>
>salvebooks wrote:
>
>> The Lord's Day, Sunday has to do with the Resurrection falling on
the first
>> day of the week, Sunday (Luke 24:1) and Pentecost "when the days of
>> Pentecost were accomplished" - or 50 days from the celebration of
the Jewish
>> Passover. In the year of Our Lord's death that day fell on the first
day of
>> the week, Sunday. (Acts 2:1-4) Tradition since then has preserved
Sunday as
>> the Lord's day.
>
>
>
Edward Thorne
<dianne....@shaw.wave.ca> writes:
>
>
>
>MyLifeForGod wrote:
>
>> Now to answer your question...
>>
>> There are at least 3 reasons the Lords day was changed (yes,
changed) from
>> Saturday to Sunday by (who?????) the APOSTLES!! Do the APOSTLES
have any
>> authority? Sadly, I suppose you have more authority than the
apostles.
>>
>
was
day of
>the week more than the Sabbath. I cannot find that they made Sunday
holy. If
>you can, please let me know.
Well, how about Paul's preaching on sunday?
Or, don't you recognize the book of Acts?
Evidently not, because you don't recognize the authority of the church
to bind and to loose. I don't why you don't, because that authority
comes from Christ, or don't you read the bible?
Edward Thorne
Domini:
>
> 14. In the first place, therefore, Sunday is the day of rest
because it is
> the day "blessed" by God and "made holy" by him, set apart from the
> other days to be, among all of them, "the Lord's Day".
>
>where in Scripture:
>
> - God blessed Sunday?
> - God made Sunday holy?
> - God set apart Sunday as "the Lord's Day?"
>
>You will not find Sunday, the first day, in the following verses,
>you will only find the seventh-day Sabbath, which is Saturday.
>
>because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created
and made.
>
>Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
>Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
>Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God:
>in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter,
>thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger
>that is within thy gates:
>Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea,
>and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the
LORD
>blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
>
>So just where is the "thus saith the Lord" for Sunday holiness?
This shows how people can go wrong when they deny to the church the
authority to bind and to loose that Christ gave it.
HIs list up above has one significant omission: the one in Acts where
Paul is preaching on sunday for hours in Ephesus and the boy falls out
of the window to the ground.
We celebrate the 8th day, the day that Christ rose from the dead. This
was done very early in the church, on Apostolic authority.
Apparantly the writer of this post does not believe that CHrist rose
from the dead, or he still wants us to follow Jewish practices; he is
like a Judaizer.
John P. Boatwright
>
> The Bible says that men will regard tyhe tradition of
> men rather that the word and teachings of God.
Not all men... some people actually follow what Jesus said.
The RCC blew it by thinking Peter is the ROCK of the
church. Peter was called Satan by Jesus only a couple
of verses after Peter had SAID the ROCK of the church:
"Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God."
That's the ROCK the RCC missed.
Peter was given the keys to the kingdom of heaven
just like everyone else who's read and believed what
Jesus said.
What Jesus said and belief in it, >>> ARE <<<
the keys to the kingdom of heaven.
God made it all, Jesus died for our sins.
jpau...@asapsoftware.com
eth...@ix.netcom.com(Edward Thorne) wrote:
> In <35A25F1D...@aloha.net> Michael Scheifler <mik...@aloha.net>
> writes:
> >
> >According to Pope John Paul II in his new apostolic letter Dies
> Domini:
> >
> > 14. In the first place, therefore, Sunday is the day of rest
> because it is
> > the day "blessed" by God and "made holy" by him, set apart from the
> > other days to be, among all of them, "the Lord's Day".
> >
> >Perhaps some scholarly Catholic out there could point out for us all
> >where in Scripture:
> >
> > - God blessed Sunday?
> > - God made Sunday holy?
> > - God set apart Sunday as "the Lord's Day?"
> >
> >You will not find Sunday, the first day, in the following verses,
> >you will only find the seventh-day Sabbath, which is Saturday.
<snip>
> Apparantly the writer of this post does not believe that CHrist rose
> from the dead, or he still wants us to follow Jewish practices; he is
> like a Judaizer.
No, I've seen him around on other lists. He's an SDA troll. Ed, not sure if
you've read Dies Domini yet (it's available in English at
http://www.vatican.va), but when you do, you'll see immediately that it's
bound to send SDAs into conniptions.
Jim
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
jeh...@my-dejanews.com
jpau...@asapsoftware.com wrote:
> No, I've seen him around on other lists. He's an SDA troll. Ed, not sure if
> you've read Dies Domini yet (it's available in English at
> http://www.vatican.va), but when you do, you'll see immediately that it's
> bound to send SDAs into conniptions.
>
I don't know why it will send SDAs into conniptions since the Pope is not
covering any new ground with this letter. Nearly everything has already been
covered in the Catechism (and much earlier). The Pope is just encouraging
everyone to go and worship.
Cheers!
-eric
Mr. Matthew W. I. Dunn
why Sunday is called "the Lord's Day". If for no other reason, it is the
Lord's day because Christ, Who was called "Kurios" or "Lord", rose from the
dead on the first day of the week, i. e. Sunday. (Cf. Matt. 28:1) The Jews
enumerated the days of the week such that Sunday was the first day;
Tuesday, the second; and, so on and so forth. Christians simply carried
that trait over from Judaism. For example, see I Cor. 16:2 wherein St.
Paul asks that a collection be made on the first day of the week for the
brethren in Jerusalem. But, remember as well that the early Christians
prayed and worshiped on EVERY DAY of the week: "And continuing daily (!)
with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread in their houses, they
took their food with gladness and simplicity of heart, praising God and
being in favor with all the people. " (Acts 2:46-7) I find it interesting
that the Breaking of the Bread, the Holy Eucharist, was celebrated each
day, especially on Sundays, when Christians recalled the Death and
Resurrection of Our Lord. Using reason, however, one comes upon another
problem: on which day did the Lord, Yahweh, rest? The Jews ended their
week with "shabbat" and began it again with the first day. We,
English-speakers, would call those days Saturday and Sunday. Nevertheless,
it was simply a convention; for six days the Jews worked and, then, rested
on the seventh. Another misconception I see is the implication that
somehow the Catholic Church was appeasing the pagans by celebrating "the
Lord's Day" on the "dies solis" or "day of the sun". The problem here is
that EVERY day of the Roman week was dedicated to some or another god; and,
the names of our own week are dedicated to Teutonic gods and goddesses, e.
g. the moon, Tiu, Woden, Thor, Freya, and Saturn. So, celebrating Saturday
as the sabbath would be no better at getting us away from (supposed) pagan
connections. In fine, the whole thing comes down to authority. Jesus
Christ founded a church (Mt. 16:18) which would be "the pillar and mainstay
of the truth" (I Tim. 3:15). Our Lord invested that church with authority
(Lk. 10:16; but, other verses can be proffered.) which was given in a
unique way to St. Peter and his successors. The Church has Christ's full
authority to decide on which day the Lord's Resurrection should be recalled
by all Christians. (As a matter of fact, Holy Mother Church recommends that
the Sacrifice of the Mass, or the Breaking of Bread, ought to be offered
EVERY day, not just on Sundays.) It decided -- and, for very good reasons
-- to celebrate Christians' own Passover feast on Sunday, when the bonds of
sin and death were shattered by Jesus the Lord. I'm satisfied with that.
Dianne Birtley <dianne....@shaw.wave.ca> wrote in article
<35A2CADB...@shaw.wave.ca>...
> seems to be following the traditions of man, rather than the word and
teachings of
> Jesus Christ and God the Father.
>
> Michael Scheifler wrote:
>
> > According to Pope John Paul II in his new apostolic letter Dies Domini:
> >
> > 14. In the first place, therefore, Sunday is the day of rest because
it is
> > the day "blessed" by God and "made holy" by him, set apart from the
> > other days to be, among all of them, "the Lord's Day".
> >
> > Perhaps some scholarly Catholic out there could point out for us all
> > where in Scripture:
> >
> > - God blessed Sunday?
> > - God made Sunday holy?
> > - God set apart Sunday as "the Lord's Day?"
> >
> > You will not find Sunday, the first day, in the following verses,
> > you will only find the seventh-day Sabbath, which is Saturday.
> >
> > Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it:
> > because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created
and made.
> >
> > Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
> > Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
> > Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God:
> > in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter,
> > thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger
> > that is within thy gates:
> > Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea,
> > and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD
> > blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
> >
> > So just where is the "thus saith the Lord" for Sunday holiness?
> >
Dianne Birtley
says one thing, and Peter says that he has declaired all of the teachings of God.
And the change of the day of worship which is of great importance if it is truth,
was omitted from the Bible, then I would assume that God nor Jesus intended for the
day to change. If the day was not supposed to change then the folks that worship on
Sunday are breaking the commandments and the folks that changed the day would be
guilty of changing God's times and Laws. Sound familiar. And then we understand
how the whole world will wonder after the beast holding for doctrine the traditions
of man.
Theodore M. Seeber wrote:
> On Wed, 8 Jul 1998, Dianne Birtley wrote:
>
> > I cannot find anywhere in the Bible where the apostles said the day was
> > changed. I can't find anywhere thta they regarded Sunday or the first day of
> > the week more than the Sabbath. I cannot find that they made Sunday holy. If
> > you can, please let me know.
>
Dianne Birtley
the day that Jesus was resurrected. We also know that the first day of the week is
the next day after the Sabbath. We know that the Catholics changed the day to honor
the resurrection of Jesus. SO. This must mean that if Sunday is the day after the
Sabbath, and Sunday comes after Saturday, heck, it must mean that Saturday is the
Sabbath.
Alan Craft wrote:
> On Tue, 07 Jul 1998 07:47:09 -1000, Michael Scheifler <mik...@aloha.net> wrote:
> <snip>
> >Perhaps some scholarly Catholic out there could point out for us all
> >where in Scripture:
> >
> > - God blessed Sunday?
> > - God made Sunday holy?
> > - God set apart Sunday as "the Lord's Day?"
> >
> >You will not find Sunday, the first day, in the following verses,
> >you will only find the seventh-day Sabbath, which is Saturday.
>
Dianne Birtley
Edward Thorne wrote:
>
>
> HIs list up above has one significant omission: the one in Acts where
> Paul is preaching on sunday for hours in Ephesus and the boy falls out
> of the window to the ground.
> First of all, let us put that meeting with Paul into context. Paul was
> leraving the next day for a long trip. He was not sure if he would see
> these folks again.
Also, Sunday starts at sundown on Saturday. So if Paul chatted til
midnight, then he chatted from sunset Saturday evening until midnight. So
it was what we today would call a Saturday night chat. It is significant
because he was leaving town the next day.
> We celebrate the 8th day, the day that Christ rose from the dead. This
> was done very early in the church, on Apostolic authority.
> This is not Biblical. You may have found this in the Catechism. The
> Bible is the only inspired word of God. Be careful. The bible says that
> we will hold for doctrine the traditions of men. Sunday, in the
> catechism is noted as the day of the sun. It clearly says that if the
> pagans call it the day of the sun, then we gladly agree. Easter another
> Catholic tradition could not be for the resurrection of Jesus. It does
> not fall on the same day each year. It is a pagan celebration for
> fertility. Hence the eggs and the bunny rabbits. Christmas, another
> Catholic tradition, is not the birtth time of Jesus but it coincides with
> the sacrifice celebration of the sun god Tamus. This is when there
> starts to be a noticable lengthening of the days. This meant that the
> sacrifice was accepted and the sun god decided to shine on the folks for
> another year.
> Apparantly the writer of this post does not believe that CHrist rose
> from the dead, or he still wants us to follow Jewish practices; he is
> like a Judaizer.
>
The Bible says that in the last days the whole world will follow after the
beast. They will teach for doctrine the traditions of man. But God says
if you love me, keep my commandments.
Lastly, if the law was done away with, What is God using at the judgement.
Why does Revelation say "Blessed are those that do His commandments, that
they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the
gates into the city". Why does it say " Behold I come quickly, and my
reward is with Me to give every man according to his work."
And if the commandments are not done away with, then you can see that all
of prophecy has been fulfilled. The whole world is following after the
beast. They are breaking commandments all over the place.
Dianne Birtley
you wish, it changes nothing. I am not pointing you to a secondary source,
I am pointing you to the Bible and I am asking you to study it. Forget
what you have been taught and study the Bible to understand it. Then pray
about it.
When the Bible makes serious statements like, the whole world will be
wondering after the beast, and the churches will be teaching for doctrine
the traditions of men, what do you think it is talking about. When do you
think this is talking about. Is it in the future. For the whole world to
be wondering after the beast, the whole world must be wrong. But maybe,
the Bible meant something else.
Edward Thorne wrote:
> In <35A2CC96...@shaw.wave.ca> Dianne Birtley
> <dianne....@shaw.wave.ca> writes:
> >
> >The Bible says that men will regard tyhe tradition of men rather that
> the word
> >and teachings of God.
>
> So, you call action taken by the Apostles, using their Christ-given
> authority to bind and to loose, a tradition of man.
>
> Interesting. But since you won't listen even to the church, why should
> we not consider you as the heathen and publican?
> >
> >salvebooks wrote:
> >
> >> The Lord's Day, Sunday has to do with the Resurrection falling on
> the first
> >> day of the week, Sunday (Luke 24:1) and Pentecost "when the days of
> >> Pentecost were accomplished" - or 50 days from the celebration of
> the Jewish
> >> Passover. In the year of Our Lord's death that day fell on the first
> day of
> >> the week, Sunday. (Acts 2:1-4) Tradition since then has preserved
> Sunday as
> >> the Lord's day.
> >
> >
> >
Dianne Birtley
into the future at the destruction of Jerusalem and ask the people to pray
that they dont have to flee in the winter or on the Sabbath. If He knew
that right after His death and resurrection, thta the day would be changed,
why did he not make the adjustment.
It clearly matters what the apostles did. The apostles never changed the
day of worship. There are so many instances where the apostles worshipped
on the Sabbath. If you wish, list each of the text from the book of ACTS
onward to revelation, that state thta they worshipped on Sunday, that the
day was changed from Saturday to Sunday, that Sunday was made holy by the
apostles, that Jesus changed the solemnity of the Sabbath from Saturday to
Sunday. And I will list all the verses that uphold the Sabbath as the day
of worship, the day that God holds holy. Lets see what you come up with.
It will only be two texts that people always misunderstans. The Peter chat
on Sunday til midnight, and the gathering of food on Sunday that the folks
were to lay up in store for Paul to collect. Other than that, there is
nothing. There are several about Christs resurrection, There are several
about the Sabbath.
Edward Thorne wrote:
> In <35A2CADB...@shaw.wave.ca> Dianne Birtley
> <dianne....@shaw.wave.ca> writes:
> >
> >There are so many more verses to show what the Catholics changed the
> day of
> >worship, and the references to the pagan worship of the sun. The
> whole world
> >seems to be following the traditions of man, rather than the word and
> teachings of
> >Jesus Christ and God the Father.
>
> So, you don't believe that Christ rose from the dead. Or, maybe you are
> a Judaizer?
>
> Don't you know that the church made the change in the lifetime of the
> Apostles?
>
> Or doesn't it matter what the Apostles did?
>
Dianne Birtley
er Peter, (Meaning a pebble), the difference is stated, On this rock,
(Meaning Jesus himself) I will build my church.
John P. Boatwright wrote:
> Dianne Birtley wrote:
> >
> > The Bible says that men will regard tyhe tradition of
Dianne Birtley
Alan Craft wrote:
> On Tue, 07 Jul 1998 18:11:40 -1000, Michael Scheifler <mik...@aloha.net> wrote:
>
> I remember seeing a 7th-Day Adventist church on my way to
> school via the bus...each and every school-day. I never gave it
> much thought...until recently.
>
> His Holiness, Pope John Paul II, speaks for me on this subject,
> as he does for all believers. I will take his word over that of a
> pseudo-pope, like yourself and others of your adherency, always.
>
> I have to ask...
>
> Are 7th-Day Adventists irritated because their favourite what-nots
> are either opened late, closed early, or closed entirely on Sunday, the
> Sabbath?
>
> One more item...
>
> Does your most peculiar denomination exist solely for the purpose
> of reinstating Saturday as the Christian Sabbath? Like I told you, I
> attend Mass on Saturday. Happy?
>
> Peace.
>
> Alan
Edward Thorne
mauriti...@hotmail.com (Alan Craft) writes:
>On Tue, 07 Jul 1998 07:47:09 -1000, Michael Scheifler
<mik...@aloha.net> wrote:
><snip>
>>Perhaps some scholarly Catholic out there could point out for us all
>>where in Scripture:
>>
>> - God blessed Sunday?
>> - God made Sunday holy?
>> - God set apart Sunday as "the Lord's Day?"
>>
>>You will not find Sunday, the first day, in the following verses,
>>you will only find the seventh-day Sabbath, which is Saturday.
>
> I attend Vigil Mass...on Saturday. Who'da thunk it?
>
>Now...YOU show me in Holy Scripture where it says, "...Saturday...".
>
>Alan
>
>
Edward Thorne
writes:
>Alan Craft wrote:
>
>> Now...YOU show me in Holy Scripture where it says, "...Saturday...".
>
>How do you know that it was? The word "Sunday does not appear in
>scripture either. Consider these verses carefully:
>
>Mat 28:1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the
first
>day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the
sepulchre.
Well, that means Sunday, since Sunday began on sunset on Saturday.
>
>Luke 23:56 And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments;
>and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.
So, they rested on the Saturday.
>Luke 24:1 Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the
morning,
>they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had
prepared,
>and certain others with them.
>Luke 24:2 And they found the stone rolled away from the sepulchre.
So, that was Sunday.
>
>So, if the resurrection was on Sunday, the first day of the week,
>then what precisely was the previous day?
Saturday.
Tell me, what is the mystery in that?
* * * * *
St Paul, traveller of God, pray for us.
--Ed
>
>Michael
Edward Thorne
<sa...@teleport.com> writes:
>
>Dianne Birtley wrote:
>>
>> The Bible says that men will regard tyhe tradition of
>> men rather that the word and teachings of God.
>
>Not all men... some people actually follow what Jesus said.
>
>The RCC blew it by thinking Peter is the ROCK of the
>church. Peter was called Satan by Jesus only a couple
>of verses after Peter had SAID the ROCK of the church:
>
>"Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God."
Is this some kind of joke?
>
>That's the ROCK the RCC missed.
>
>Peter was given the keys to the kingdom of heaven
>just like everyone else who's read and believed what
>Jesus said.
Let me see, I have read my bible from front to back, and nowhere do I
see anyone getting the keys to the kingdom but Peter.
>
>What Jesus said and belief in it, >>> ARE <<<
>the keys to the kingdom of heaven.
>
>God made it all, Jesus died for our sins.
Of course, I guess that you don't believe that Jesus put Peter in
charge of all the faithful, even though the bible says that he did
that.
Edward Thorne
>
>In article <6nuqe5$e...@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>,
> eth...@ix.netcom.com(Edward Thorne) wrote:
>> In <35A25F1D...@aloha.net> Michael Scheifler
<mik...@aloha.net>
>> writes:
>> >
>> Domini:
>> >
>> > 14. In the first place, therefore, Sunday is the day of rest
>> because it is
>> > the day "blessed" by God and "made holy" by him, set apart from
the
>> > other days to be, among all of them, "the Lord's Day".
>> >
all
>> >where in Scripture:
>> >
>> > - God blessed Sunday?
>> > - God made Sunday holy?
>> > - God set apart Sunday as "the Lord's Day?"
>> >
>> >You will not find Sunday, the first day, in the following verses,
>> >you will only find the seventh-day Sabbath, which is Saturday.
>
>
>> Apparantly the writer of this post does not believe that CHrist rose
>> from the dead, or he still wants us to follow Jewish practices; he
is
>> like a Judaizer.
>
sure if
>you've read Dies Domini yet (it's available in English at
>http://www.vatican.va), but when you do, you'll see immediately that
it's
>bound to send SDAs into conniptions.
thnx for the info.
I am fed up with people who threaten conniptions.
My reply to them is."Let them have their conniptions."
As for the SDA, they are judaizing Arians.
* * * * *
St Paul, traveller of God, pray for us.
--Ed
>
>Jim
Edward Thorne
<dianne....@shaw.wave.ca> writes:
>
>I agree, the text actually is Jesus making a play on words, He said,
you
>er Peter, (Meaning a pebble), the difference is stated, On this rock,
>(Meaning Jesus himself) I will build my church.
>
>John P. Boatwright wrote:
>
>> Dianne Birtley wrote:
Actaully, what Jesus said was "YOu are kepha, and on this kepha I
will build my church."
So, Jesus gives Peter --no one else
o the keys to the kingdom of heaven
o the power to bind and to loose
o the mission of strengthen the other Apostles, even though Jesus had
just told Peter that Peter was going to deny him
o total responsibility for all the faithful
That is pretty impressive for a mere pebble, right?
Alan Craft
>I am glad you used those words, the Bible says that we are to be a peculiar people.
Save it. I used the word ONLY in reference to the SDA's practice of holding
Saturday as the Sabbath, as opposed to Sunday being held by the rest of
Christianity...among other things...
Nicholas, for instance...one of your own, I believe.
Alan
Alan Craft
>In <35aced45...@news.mem.bellsouth.net>
>mauriti...@hotmail.com (Alan Craft) writes:
>>
>>On Tue, 07 Jul 1998 07:47:09 -1000, Michael Scheifler
><mik...@aloha.net> wrote:
>><snip>
>>>Perhaps some scholarly Catholic out there could point out for us all
>>>where in Scripture:
>>>
>>> - God blessed Sunday?
>>> - God made Sunday holy?
>>> - God set apart Sunday as "the Lord's Day?"
>>>
>>>You will not find Sunday, the first day, in the following verses,
>>>you will only find the seventh-day Sabbath, which is Saturday.
>>
>> I attend Vigil Mass...on Saturday. Who'da thunk it?
>>
>>Now...YOU show me in Holy Scripture where it says, "...Saturday...".
>>
>>Alan
>>
>>
>With respect to Sunday, we are like the Jews: it begins at sundown!
Not only that but it also begins WITHIN the Jewish Sabbath...during
the summer!
Alan Craft
>In <35A2F17C...@aloha.net> Michael Scheifler <mik...@aloha.net>
>writes:
<snip>
>>So, if the resurrection was on Sunday, the first day of the week,
>>then what precisely was the previous day?
>
>Saturday.
>
>Tell me, what is the mystery in that?
It was my own fault. I had utterly forgotten about this over the years
which prompted his reply to mine, mine being predominantly emotional in
its composition and, consequently, telling.
Alan
Albert Alcoceba
<mik...@aloha.net> wrote:
>Perhaps some scholarly Catholic out there could point out for us all
>where in Scripture:
>
> - God blessed Sunday?
> - God made Sunday holy?
> - God set apart Sunday as "the Lord's Day?"
An excellent answer to this can be found at
http://www.users.on.net/mec/answers/69_mee.htm
Albert Alcoceba
alb...@zip.com.au
http://homepages.tig.com.au/~alberta
Edward Thorne
>eth...@ix.netcom.com(Edward Thorne) writes:
>
>>So, Jesus gives Peter --no one else
>>
>>o the keys to the kingdom of heaven
>>
>>o the power to bind and to loose
>
disciples
>are given this power.
Yes, I should have said that Peter was given that power first.
>
>>o the mission of strengthen the other Apostles, even though Jesus
had
>>just told Peter that Peter was going to deny him
>>
>>o total responsibility for all the faithful
>
>
"Sacrifice or oblation you wish not, but ears open to obedience you
gave me"
--Ed
Jim Cork
> Hey, the path to heaven is narrow, and full of persecution.
True enough. Look at the saints and martyrs over the past 2000 years.
Here in Japan, over 10,000 Catholics were tortured and executed between
the 17th and 19th centuries because they would not give up their faith.
> I am not pointing you to a secondary source, I am pointing you to the
> Bible and I am asking you to study it. Forget what you have been taught
> and study the Bible to understand it.
If the Bible is that clear, then why does every other "Sola Scriptura"
church disagree with you (and with each other)? Did you come to your
conclusions on your own, with only the Bible to show you the way? I
think not... my guess is that you went to a Daniel and the Revelation
seminar, or read "The Great Controversy." And why not? After all,
Ellen White was God's prophet, right?
17. The Gift of Prophecy: One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is
prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church
and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen G. White. As the
Lord's messenger, her writings are a continuing and
authoritative source of truth which provide for the church
comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction. They also make
clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and
experience must be tested. ("27 Fundamental Beliefs of
Seventh-Day Adventists"; see <http://www.adventist.org/>)
In other words, SDA's believe only in the Bible... plus Ellen White.
So... you *don't* believe in Sola Scriptura. If you did, Mrs. White
would not be considered to be "the Lord's messenger" or an
"authoritative source of truth." You can't have it both ways. You
can't have a modern-day prophet *and* be "Sola Scriptura."
But what about that last line, you say ("the Bible is the standard by
which all teaching and experience must be tested"). Well, you can
misquote the Bible to mean anything you want it to, especially if you
have already come to a conclusion. The early Adventists, influenced by
the rampant anti-Catholicism of 19th-century America, already believed
that the Catholic Church was evil, and tried to use the Bible to justify
their hatred for God's Church. They weren't the first, and they aren't
the last (read any Jack Chick pamphlets lately?). And it's not just
Catholic-bashers that twist Scripture -- white supremacists and
anti-semites have used the Bible to justify racism. But as St. Paul
wrote:
2 Tim 4:3 For the time is coming when people will not endure
sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for
themselves teachers to suit their own likings, 4 and will turn
away from listening to the truth and wander into myths.
Teachers to suit their own likings, as opposed to teachers designated by
Christ through the Apostles and their lawful successors. And what are
these myths? Look at another Adventist belief:
12. The Remnant and Its Mission: The universal church is
composed of all who truly believe in Christ, but in the last
days, a time of widespread apostasy, a remnant has been called
out to keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. ("27
Fundamental Beliefs")
Hmmm... so the last days are "a time of widespread apostasy." You
believe this apostasy to be Sunday worship. But how can this be? The
Church has been worshipping on Sunday for at least 1900 years:
"If we still live according to Jewish observances, we confess
that we do not accept the grace of Christ. Those who once lived
according to the Old Law have come to a new hope, no longer
observing the Jewish Sabbath, but the Lord's day, on which our
life rose from the dead." (St. Ignatius, 107 A.D.)
Note the date. St. Ignatius lived at the same time as the Apostles.
Ellen White did not.
> When the Bible makes serious statements like, the whole world will be
> wondering after the beast, and the churches will be teaching for doctrine
> the traditions of men, what do you think it is talking about.
Ah yes... the "traditions of men." Guess that rules out Mrs. White.
After all, she was a woman, right?
Oh, you mean "men" as in "humans." You seem to have have confused human
traditions with Sacred Tradition. What do you think happened to the
things which the Apostles taught, but didn't write down?
2 Thess 2:15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the
traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth
or by letter.
Pretty straightforward. The Bible tells us to listen to what the
Apostles teach, and to beware of people who would try to lead us astray.
And clearly, there are things that the early church believed that were
not written in the Bible.
> When do you think this is talking about. Is it in the future. For the
> whole world to be wondering after the beast, the whole world must be
> wrong.
Yep. Look at all the sin in the world today. Wars, abortion, adultery,
materialism... Time to pick a category, Dianna...
"Alex, I'll take 'Sinners and Saints' for $500."
"OK... this is the one faith in the 20th century that has taken
a consistent stand against sin in all of its forms, and has
refused to cave in to the demands of relativism and secular
humanism."
"What is the Roman Catholic Church?"
"That's correct!"
You know, if I were Satan, I wouldn't send my minions to earth to
condemn sin. After all, people might listen! They might start going to
church, or reading the Bible! They might repent, and reform their
lives! Don't you think that Satan would rather lure people into atheism
and materialism, so that they might deny God altogether and worship
themselves? Instead, you're claiming that his best weapon in the world
is the Catholic Church.
Well, if the Catholic Church is Satan's biggest weapon, then I guess God
doesn't have anything to worry about. He must be laughing his head
off... "Look at that stupid devil! Is that the best he can do? That
Pope of his is going around, condemning Communism, materialism,
immorality, abortion... What's he trying to do? With enemies like
that, who needs friends?" Looks like Beelzebub had better review his
hiring policies.
Now, I know that Adventists acknowledge that some in the Catholic faith
may be saved in their ignorance. But how could people be saved through
an institution controlled by Satan himself? And let's not forget the
Protestants who worship on Sunday (the "image of the Beast"). Adventists
today claim that "the universal church is composed of all who truly
believe in Christ," but what did Ellen White say?
"I saw the state of the different churches since the second
angel proclaimed their fall (in 1844). They have been growing
more and more corrupt.... Satan has taken full possession of the
churches as a body.... Their profession, their prayers and their
exhortations are an abomination in the sight of God".
("Spiritual Gifts", Vol. 1, p. 189)
So... all who truly believe in Christ are saved, and yet their prayers
are an abomination to God! Doesn't make much sense, does it? Remember,
these are not merely Mrs. White's personal views--she claimed to receive
her visions directly from God himself:
"When I send you a testimony of warning and reproof, many of you
declare it to be merely the opinion of Sister White. You have
thereby insulted the spirit of God". (E.G. White Testimonies,
Vol. 5, p. 661).
Keep in mind that if Mrs. White is a prophet of God, then she *must* be
infallible (100% free from error):
Deut. 18: 20 But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in my
name which I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in
the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die.' 21 And if
you say in your heart, 'How may we know the word which the LORD
has not spoken?' -- 22 when a prophet speaks in the name of the
LORD, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a
word which the LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it
presumptuously, you need not be afraid of him.
But hey, don't take my word for it. Read Mrs. White's books for
yourself, not just the excerpts reprinted in the "Adventist Review." If
I'm not mistaken, they're all available online at Andrews University's
web site. If she's wrong (on *anything*), then she's a false prophet,
and the entire Seventh-Day Adventist Church is wrong. Of course, that
conclusion has already been reached by many of the most educated
Adventist theologians, such as Walter Rea and Desmond Ford.
> But maybe, the Bible meant something else.
Yup. There's still time to come home to Rome. Out of the six kids in
my family (all raised Adventist), three of us are now Catholic, and one
is attending a Lutheran church. (God's still working on the rest!) One
of my brothers has some excellent articles on his web site, including
his personal testimony and a refutation of the Adventist interpretation
of prophecy (under "Catholicism"). It's at:
<http://members.aol.com/WQuercus/index.html>
Jim
--
Jim Cork, Jessica Kennett, and Tampopo the Cat
jess...@naa.att.ne.jp
<http://home.att.ne.jp/gold/jessnjim/>
Jim Cork
>
> Theodore M. Seeber wrote:
> >
> > Do you think that the only records of the Apostles or of Jesus Christ are
> > in the Bible?
> >
> >
So... what's the problem?
> But hey, the Bible is the only inspired word of God.
Oh? What about this:
17. The Gift of Prophecy: One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is
prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church
and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen G. White. (SDA
Fundamental Beliefs)
Where's my dictionary... ah yes, here it is.
prophecy: an inspired utterance of a prophet. (American
Heritage Dictionary, 3rd Edition)
So... is she inspired? Or is she a quack? Which is it?
> So, if the Bible says one thing, and Peter says that he has declaired all
> of the teachings of God.
What?
> And the change of the day of worship which is of great importance if it is
> truth, was omitted from the Bible, then I would assume that God nor Jesus
^^^
One and the same. You *do* believe in the Trinity, don't you?
> intended for the day to change.
God didn't write the Bible himself. Don't believe me? Read the first
lines of any one of the epistles. Sorry if they're not as specific as
you'd like them to be... but apparently that shows that worshipping on
Sunday was never an issue. And if Jesus didn't want the Apostles to be
in charge of the Church, why did he tell Peter to "Feed my sheep?"
> If the day was not supposed to change then the folks that worship on
> Sunday are breaking the commandments and the folks that changed the day
> would be guilty of changing God's times and Laws.
Why do you put so much faith in an American woman who had a few
nightmares, but call Christ a liar when he said that the Spirit would
lead the Church "into all truth?" (John 16:13)
> Sound familiar. And then we understand how the whole world will wonder
> after the beast holding for doctrine the traditions of man.
Beast, schmeast. From all this talk you'd think Christianity was the
Bad News, and that our entire faith was to be based on John's
Revelation. Sorry, but the "Three Angel's Message" (or Ellen White's
warped misinterpretation thereof) is NOT the Gospel.
Quackenbush
>This shows how people can go wrong when they deny to the church the
>authority to bind and to loose that Christ gave it.
>
>HIs list up above has one significant omission: the one in Acts where
>Paul is preaching on sunday for hours in Ephesus and the boy falls out
>of the window to the ground.
The 10 commandments are the perfect guide for the Christian to live a
Christ-like life. To say that Jesus had to fulfill the 10 commandments
because they simply forshadowed Jesus is saying that something written with
God's finger is/was incomplete. Nothing God does with His own finger is
incomplete.
Considering the fact that we still believe that the other nine commandments
are valid to this day. It's just the Seventh-day Sabbath that most
Christians have a bone to pick with. To say that the Sabbath is "jewish"
seems a little anti-judaic or even anti-semitic to me considering the fact
that the 10 comandments were in effect at creation, before there was a
single Jew.
Jesus didn't annul or void the Ten Commandments during His mission, he
actually expanded their scope. For example, he said that being angry at your
brother is murder (Matt. 5:21-22) and that lust is adultery (Matt. 5:27-28).
Which totally contradicts what you and other Sunday-keepers claim.
Jesus said, "If you love me, you will obey what I command." John 14:15
1 John 2:3-4 says, "We know that we have come to know Him if we obey His
commands. The man who says, 'I know Him,' but does not do what he commands
is a liar, and the truth is not in Him." His commands are encompassed in the
10 commandments and by telling people that they no longer have to be obeyed
because they were "fulfilled" is telling people not to obey God. This is the
Bible, not me talking.
I am posting all of the texts I know that tell of the apostles doing
anything on Sunday. I think I can show that these texts do not prove that
God changed His holy day from Sabbath to Sunday. They actually reinforce
God's command to worship Him on the seventh day Sabbath.
John 20:19 says, "On the evening of that first day of the week, when the
disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus
came and stood among them." They weren't worshipping. They were huddled
together, afraid for their lives. They were afraid that the Jewish leaders
would come and kill them just as they had killed Jesus and they were scared
to move. They didn't even believe He was alive until He appeared to them.
The women had told them but they didn't believe the women because they
thought the women were confused (See Mark 16:9-11; Luke 24:9-12, 36-44).
1 Corinthains 16:1-2 is the last text in the NT that refers to the first day
of the week. It's Paul's instructions to the Corinthians about an offering
he was collecting for needy Christians in Jerusalem. "Now about the
collection for God's people; Do what I told the Galatian churches to do. On
the first day of the week, each of you should set aside a sum of money in
keeping with his income, saving it up, so that when I come no collections
will have to be made."
Some people believe that this text shows that this meeting was a weekly
meeting on Sunday in which offerings were collected. But Paul says that this
is not a public collection, nor is a church service mentioned. The money is
to be "set aside" and "saved up" privately by each person or family until
Paul arrives to collect it. He basically asked his congregation to do their
bookkeeping on Sunday so the could set aside an offering "in keeping with
their income". Doing bookkeeping on Sunday doesn't sound like a way to keep
the sabbath holy to me.
Revelation 1:10 says, "On the Lord's Day, I was in the Spirit." The only
reason I mention this verse is because Christians use this title in
reference to Sunday. John doesn't spell out which day this was, but we know
that Jesus claims to be Lord of the Sabbath (Matthew 12:8). If any day can
truly be called The Lord's Day, it's the seventh-day Sabbath, the day that
Jesus declared Himself Lord of.
Acts 20:7-11 is the strongest text in the Bible in support of the idea of
the sacredness of Sunday. It states, "On the first day of the week, we can
together to break bread. Paul spoke to the people and, because he intended
to leave the next day, kept on talking until midnight...After talking until
daylight, he left."
This was clearly a religious service. The reference to breaking bread is
unmistakable. This service was held by Paul on Sunday. Does this mean that
the Seventh-day Sabbath was changed to Sunday? I don't believe so.
First of all, this is the ONLY known instance where the apostles held a
religious service on Sunday. The context suggests that this was a special
farewell service for Paul. Paul and his party were leaving Troas the next
day.
Paul's normal habit was to worship on the seventh-day Sabbath according to
Acts 13:14, 44; 17:2; 18:4).
Nothing in these versus says anything about changing the fourth commandment.
I believe that such a change would have cause vocal debate overshadowing the
debate over circumcision or food offered to idols. A change in any of the 10
commandments would have caused such turmoil that we would have volumes of
records on the subject. The silence of the Bible on any change in the
worship day tells me that it wasn't an issue because they followed the 10
commandments and worshipped on the seventh-day Sabbath.
Holding a worship service on a particular day doensn't make that day more
holy than another. Many churches hold mid-week services on Wednesday
evening, but such a meeting doesn't establish that day as a holy day or as
the Sabbath. In fact, Acts 2:42,46 says that the early Christians met "every
day" to the "breaking of bread and to prayer."
Tammy
IMPORTANT: To reply, remove "nospam." from the address.
-------------------------------------------
Jeff and Tammy Quackenbush
vamp...@nospam.prodigy.net
vamp...@nospam.hotmail.com
Note: Remove "nospam." from the addresses above.
Gary
>
> According to Pope John Paul II in his new apostolic letter Dies Domini:
>
> 14. In the first place, therefore, Sunday is the day of rest because it is
> the day "blessed" by God and "made holy" by him, set apart from the
> other days to be, among all of them, "the Lord's Day".
>
> where in Scripture:
>
> - God blessed Sunday?
> - God made Sunday holy?
> - God set apart Sunday as "the Lord's Day?"
for starters, Jesus was raised from the dead on Sunday. Jesus appeared
to the apostles on Sunday for the first time. Then Jesus appeared to
the apostles on Sunday a week later.
The very fact that He was raised from the dead on Sunday makes it a
special (holy literally means "set apart") day. Something is made Holy
by God's presence not by an official proclamation (although there could
be a proclomation which tells us something is holy it is His presence
that makes it so.)
Michael Scheifler
> >
> > According to Pope John Paul II in his new apostolic letter Dies Domini:
> >
> > 14. In the first place, therefore, Sunday is the day of rest because it is
> > the day "blessed" by God and "made holy" by him, set apart from the
> > other days to be, among all of them, "the Lord's Day".
> >
> > Perhaps some scholarly Catholic out there could point out for us all
> > where in Scripture:
> >
> > - God blessed Sunday?
> > - God made Sunday holy?
> > - God set apart Sunday as "the Lord's Day?"
Gary wrote:
> for starters, Jesus was raised from the dead on Sunday. Jesus appeared
> to the apostles on Sunday for the first time. Then Jesus appeared to
> the apostles on Sunday a week later.
>
> The very fact that He was raised from the dead on Sunday makes it a
> special (holy literally means "set apart") day. Something is made Holy
> by God's presence not by an official proclamation (although there could
> be a proclomation which tells us something is holy it is His presence
> that makes it so.)
This does not answer the question. Where did God declare Sunday to be
a holy day or day of rest? That is what the Pope is claiming.
Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it:
because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
That speaks about THE seventh-day Sabbath, which is Saturday.
Now, where is an equivalent statement from God for Sunday?
Michael
Dianne Birtley
following Sunday. That is all I ever hear about. What about the fact that he
returned again a week later on Monday. does that say something about Monday now.
The bottom line, nowhere in the Bible does it say anything about the day being
changed. We are assuming that because he was raised on Sunday that this must mean
something. The Bible does not support this. It is speculation. Jesus life
indicated Sabbath worship only. If the Bible was chrystal clear on everything
else, especially about the Sabbath, why would it not mention once anywhere in the
whole Bible by any of its writers taht Sunday was regarded by God or Jesus as being
holy. And why do we not see the obvious that Jesus himself rested in the tomb on
the Sabbath and continued his work of saving souls on Sunday by his resurrection.
I have made a challenge and noone has yet found a single verse in the Bible that is
chrystal clear on the Sunday being holy, or the solemnity of the sabbath was
changed to sunday or anything, but there are several places where it states that
saturday is the Sabbath. That the Sabbath is holy. that God blessed the sabbath
day. SHOW ME. you can't. it is not there. You speculate about scripture that
says nothing of the sort. If it was going to say that there was a change, it would
have been very clear. At least as clear as the abolition of Moses law, or the
issue of circumcision. these were all major issues. Any change to the day of
worship would have been a major issue anbd would not have been vague in the Bible.
Gary wrote:
> Michael Scheifler wrote:
> >
> > According to Pope John Paul II in his new apostolic letter Dies Domini:
> >
> > 14. In the first place, therefore, Sunday is the day of rest because it is
> > the day "blessed" by God and "made holy" by him, set apart from the
> > other days to be, among all of them, "the Lord's Day".
> >
> > Perhaps some scholarly Catholic out there could point out for us all
> > where in Scripture:
> >
> > - God blessed Sunday?
> > - God made Sunday holy?
> > - God set apart Sunday as "the Lord's Day?"
>
Edward Thorne
<dianne....@shaw.wave.ca> writes:
>
>Yea yea yea. Jesus appeared to the apostles on Sunday and returned
againthe
>following Sunday. That is all I ever hear about. What about the fact
that he
>returned again a week later on Monday. does that say something about
Monday now.
>The bottom line, nowhere in the Bible does it say anything about the
day being
>changed.
Well, it doesn't have to say anything about it.
Paul in Acts is portrayed as preaching on Sunday.
Pliny the YOunger writes about Christians meeting on sunday.
So, the church changed the day by means of its Apostolic authority
given by Jesus, to celebrate the weekly observance on the 8th day
instead of the 7th because that is the day that Jesus rose from the
dead.
Clement of Rome mentions that, I believe, in his letter written about
95 AD, or even earlier.
Anyone who wants to transfer the Christian day of weekly worship from
Sunday back to Saturday is frankly, a Judaizer. It is as if they don't
believe that CHrist rose from the dead.
We are assuming that because he was raised on Sunday that this must
mean
>something.
Yeah, it means a lot!
The Bible does not support this. It is speculation. Jesus life
>indicated Sabbath worship only.
But the old law was still in effect.
If the Bible was chrystal clear on everything
>else, especially about the Sabbath, why would it not mention once
anywhere in the
>whole Bible by any of its writers taht Sunday was regarded by God or
Jesus as being
>holy.
Well, if the Bibld were crystal clear there would not be so many
Protestant denominations.
Again, you are ignoring Acts.
And why do we not see the obvious that Jesus himself rested in the
tomb on
>the Sabbath and continued his work of saving souls on Sunday by his
resurrection.
Yes, he rose on Sunday.
>I have made a challenge and noone has yet found a single verse in the
Bible that is
>chrystal clear on the Sunday being holy, or the solemnity of the
sabbath was
>changed to sunday or anything, but there are several places where it
states that
>saturday is the Sabbath. That the Sabbath is holy. that God blessed
the sabbath
>day. SHOW ME. you can't. it is not there.
So what? The church changed it and that is all that matters.
You speculate about scripture that
>says nothing of the sort. If it was going to say that there was a
change, it would
>have been very clear.
Why? Why should it?
After all, some said that bible said that the world was going to end
in 1844, and look, we are still here!
[snip]
Dianne Birtley
tell me, why would Jesus in discussing the destruction of Jerusalem which
was to happen 30-40 years after His death, say in Matthew 24:20 "But pray
ye that your flightbe not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day.
Ac 13:14 But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in
Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down.
Ac 13:27 For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they
knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every
sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him.
Ac 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles
besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
Ac 13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to
hear the word of God.
Ac 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him,
being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
Ac 16:13 And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where
prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which
resorted thither.
Ac 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath
days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,
Ac 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the
Jews and the Greeks.
Then in verse 11, And he continued there a year and six months, teaching
the word of God among them.
Where is it inferred that the apostles worshipped on Sunday.
cam...@my-dejanews.com
jess...@naa.att.ne.jp (Jim Cork) wrote:
> Dianne Birtley <dianne....@shaw.wave.ca> wrote:
> > But hey, the Bible is the only inspired word of God.
>
> Oh? What about this:
>
> 17. The Gift of Prophecy: One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is
> prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church
> and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen G. White. (SDA
> Fundamental Beliefs)
>
> Where's my dictionary... ah yes, here it is.
>
> prophecy: an inspired utterance of a prophet. (American
> Heritage Dictionary, 3rd Edition)
>
> So... is she inspired? Or is she a quack? Which is it?
What I like even better about the number 17 fundamental belief of the SDAs is
"As the Lord's messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative
source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction,
and correction." This is the next sentance after the one posted above. Seems
to be a pretty close paraphrase of 2 Timothy 3:16, doesn't it?
Cheers!
-e
cam...@my-dejanews.com
jess...@naa.att.ne.jp (Jim Cork) wrote:
> In other words, SDA's believe only in the Bible... plus Ellen White.
> So... you *don't* believe in Sola Scriptura. If you did, Mrs. White
> would not be considered to be "the Lord's messenger" or an
> "authoritative source of truth." You can't have it both ways. You
> can't have a modern-day prophet *and* be "Sola Scriptura."
Typically from what I know about SDAs is that when two Adventists come to
differing conclusions over biblical verses, then EGW is brought out. EGW
represents "Tradition" in the same way as say, Saint Thomas Aquinas or Saint
Augustine represents "Tradition" for a Catholic. If EGW is given the office
of prophet or of a "lesser light" then "sola scriptura" is a doctrine that is
not followed.
Also the SDA General Conference itself represents the magisterium the same as
the bishops of the Catholic Church in union with the Pope are the
magisterium. This is why churches and individuals are removed
(excommunicated) from the SDA denomination: they are (typically from what I
have observed) found not to be teaching the traditional Adventists doctrines
or giving enough authority to EGW. (i.e. they place themselves beyond the
teaching authority of the GC and outside of the Tradition of EGW.)
cam...@my-dejanews.com
Gary <ga...@tier2.com> wrote:
> The very fact that He was raised from the dead on Sunday makes it a
> special (holy literally means "set apart") day. Something is made Holy
> by God's presence not by an official proclamation (although there could
> be a proclomation which tells us something is holy it is His presence
> that makes it so.)
>
This is verified by scripture too. Speaking of the wilderness tabernacle,
God said, "And there I will meet with the children of Israel, and the
tabernacle shall be sanctified by my glory" (Exodus 29:43). God literally
came into the sanctuary tent, revealing His presence through the Shekinah.
Something becomes holy because of God's presence. For example, the ground
near the burning bush was holy because God was there (Exodus 3:5).
"For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of
them" (Matthew 18:20).
Whenever during the week we gather in Christ's name--Sunday through Saturday
His presence makes that time holy.
Timothy Consodine
>According to Pope John Paul II in his new apostolic letter Dies Domini:
>
> 14. In the first place, therefore, Sunday is the day of rest because it
is
> the day "blessed" by God and "made holy" by him, set apart from the
> other days to be, among all of them, "the Lord's Day".
APOSTOLIC LETTER DIES DOMINI
OF THE HOLY FATHER JOHN PAUL II
[. . .]
The first day of the week
21. It was for this reason that, from Apostolic times, “the first day after
the Sabbath”, the first day of the week, began to shape the rhythm of life
for Christ’s disciples (cf. 1 Cor 16:2). “The first day after the Sabbath”
was also the day upon which the faithful of Troas were gathered “for the
breaking of bread”, when Paul bade them farewell and miraculously restored
the young Eutychus to life (cf. Acts 20:7-12). The Book of Revelation gives
evidence of the practice of calling the first day of the week “the Lord’s
Day” (1:10). This would now be a characteristic distinguishing Christians
from the world around them. As early as the beginning of the second century,
it was noted by Pliny the Younger, governor of Bithynia, in his report on
the Christian practice “of gathering together on a set day before sunrise
and singing among themselves a hymn to Christ as to a god”.(19) And when
Christians spoke of the “Lord’s Day”, they did so giving to this term the
full sense of the Easter proclamation: “Jesus Christ is Lord” (Phil 2:11;
cf. Acts 2:36; 1 Cor 12:3). Thus Christ was given the same title which the
Septuagint used to translate what in the revelation of the Old Testament was
the unutterable name of God: YHWH.
22. In those early Christian times, the weekly rhythm of days was generally
not part of life in the regions where the Gospel spread, and the festive
days of the Greek and Roman calendars did not coincide with the Christian
Sunday. For Christians, therefore, it was very difficult to observe the Lord
’s Day on a set day each week. This explains why the faithful had to gather
before sunrise.(20) Yet fidelity to the weekly rhythm became the norm, since
it was based upon the New Testament and was tied to Old Testament
revelation. This is eagerly underscored by the Apologists and the Fathers of
the Church in their writings and preaching where, in speaking of the Paschal
Mystery, they use the same Scriptural texts which, according to the witness
of Saint Luke (cf. 24:27, 44-47), the Risen Christ himself would have
explained to the disciples. In the light of these texts, the celebration of
the day of the Resurrection acquired a doctrinal and symbolic value capable
of expressing the entire Christian mystery in all its newness.
Growing distinction from the Sabbath
23. It was this newness which the catechesis of the first centuries stressed
as it sought to show the prominence of Sunday relative to the Jewish
Sabbath. It was on the Sabbath that the Jewish people had to gather in the
synagogue and to rest in the way prescribed by the Law. The Apostles, and in
particular Saint Paul, continued initially to attend the synagogue so that
there they might proclaim Jesus Christ, commenting upon “the words of the
prophets which are read every Sabbath” (Acts 13:27). Some communities
observed the Sabbath while also celebrating Sunday. Soon, however, the two
days began to be distinguished ever more clearly, in reaction chiefly to the
insistence of those Christians whose origins in Judaism made them inclined
to maintain the obligation of the old Law. Saint Ignatius of Antioch writes:
“If those who were living in the former state of things have come to a new
hope, no longer observing the Sabbath but keeping the Lord’s Day, the day on
which our life has appeared through him and his death ..., that mystery from
which we have received our faith and in which we persevere in order to be
judged disciples of Christ, our only Master, how could we then live without
him, given that the prophets too, as his disciples in the Spirit, awaited
him as master?”.(21) Saint Augustine notes in turn: “Therefore the Lord too
has placed his seal on his day, which is the third after the Passion. In the
weekly cycle, however, it is the eighth day after the seventh, that is after
the Sabbath, and the first day of the week”.(22) The distinction of Sunday
from the Jewish Sabbath grew ever stronger in the mind of the Church, even
though there have been times in history when, because the obligation of
Sunday rest was so emphasized, the Lord’s Day tended to become more like the
Sabbath. Moreover, there have always been groups within Christianity which
observe both the Sabbath and Sunday as “two brother days”.(23)
>Perhaps some scholarly Catholic out there could point out for us all
>where in Scripture:
>
> - God blessed Sunday?
> - God made Sunday holy?
> - God set apart Sunday as "the Lord's Day?"
Why not read what the pope wrote?
>You will not find Sunday, the first day, in the following verses,
>you will only find the seventh-day Sabbath, which is Saturday.
>
>Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it:
>because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and
made.
>Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
>Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
>Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God:
>in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter,
>thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger
>that is within thy gates:
>Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea,
>and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD
>blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
Col 2:16 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and
drink or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a sabbath.
Timothy Consodine
http://www.flash.net/~timothyc/
-------------------------------------------------------
LORD'S DAY
by James Kiefer
What Biblical authority is there, if any, to change the Sabbath from the
Seventh day of the week to the First day of the week?
In Acts 20:7, we read: On the first day of the week, when we were gathered
together to break bread, Paul talked with them, intending to depart on the
morrow; and he prolonged his speech until midnight.
Here Luke gives us to understand that the early Christians were gathered for
worship on the first day of the week. (I trust that it is not necessary for
me to present evidence that the reference to the breaking of bread is to the
celebration of the Lord's Supper, also called the Eucharist.) Now it may be
objected that the text simply tells us that they were so gathered on that
particular occasion, perhaps because Paul was about to leave the next day
and wished to preach a farewell sermon, and that there is no significance in
the day. But if this be the case, then why bother to mention the day of the
week? Luke does not in general refer to the day of the week, unless it has
some connection with his narrative, as when he tells us that Paul preached
in a synagogue on the Sabbath, where we understand that he did so because
that was the principal day of assembly at the synagogue. Luke does not tell
us, for example, that the riot at
Ephesus was on the fourth day of the week, since that has nothing to do with
the riot. If he here mentions that it was the first day, it is because it
was understood that that was the day when Christians normally assembled for
the breaking of bread.
Paul writes to the church at Corinth (1 Cor 16:1-2) about a proposed gift of
money from the churches of that area to the church at Jerusalem, which (for
various reasons I have discussed elsewhere) was in desperate straits. He
says: Now concerning the contribution for the saints: as I directed the
churches of Galatia, so you also are to do. On the first day of every week,
each of you is to put something aside and store it up, as he may prosper, so
that contributions need not be made when I come. And when I arrive, I will
send those whom you accredit by letter to carry your gift to Jerusalem.
If we suppose that the church at Corinth and the church in Galatia regularly
met for worship on the first day of the week, then it is natural to
understand this as meaning that when they met, each brought a sum of money
and placed it in the church treasury, so that when Paul came, the money
would be all there in a strongbox waiting to be sent to Jerusalem. Is
another interpretation plausible? Perhaps Paul meant that on the first day
of each week each householder ought to sit down with his books, calculate
his income for the previous week, his expenses for the previous week, budget
an amount that he could afford to donate to the Jerusalem Relief Fund, and
place this money carefully aside in his own strongbox. But notice the stated
purpose of Paul's directions: "so that contributions need not be made (OR so
there be no gatherings) when I come." Surely a very limited acquaintance
with human nature suffices to warn us that if each person were directed to
sit down and make the appropriate calculation every week, and set aside the
money at home every week, many perfectly well-intentioned persons would put
off the task this week, thinking that it would be just as easy to do two
weeks at a time the following week, and so when Paul finally did arrive they
would be ransacking the house for spare cash at the last minute, which is
precisely what Paul hoped to avoid. Let me ask each of you, or at least such
of you as are American taxpayers: If no tax deductions were made from your
paycheck, but you simply knew in general the amount that you were required
to send in by April 15th, would you find every year as that date approached
that you had no trouble in rounding up the money, since you had carefully
budgeted the necessary funds each week or fortnight or month, and put them
aside in a special account marked, "For Tax Payments"? I remind you that
many banks run what are called Christmas Clubs, in which the depositor who
has agreed to the arrangement is FORCED to deposit a portion of each
paycheck with the bank throughout the year, the accumulated sum being
released to him at the beginning of December, so that he may have plenty of
money with which to buy Christmas presents. If you consider why the
depositor does not simply set aside some money on his own each month for the
same purpose, you will see why it would make much more sense for each
worshiper to bring with him to church each week the sum of money he felt
able to donate, "as he had prospered," so that the money would be set aside
in reality, and not merely in good intentions, when Paul arrived. But that
implies a weekly meeting on the first day of the week, as we have already
noted.
John, in the Book of Revelation, begins his account of his visions by
writing (1:10): I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day....
Here John speaks of the Lord's Day. What does he mean by this? Some say that
the term denotes no particular day, that every day is the Lord's day. But in
that event, John's statement means only that he was in the Spirit, with no
indication of when. Surely he mentions the Lord's Day with the intent that
we shall understand which day he means, and surely he does so because the
day is significant, because it is a particularly appropriate day for him to
be in the Spirit, a day especially set aside for prayer and praise and
rejoicing in the Spirit. Some say that he refers to the Sabbath. But in that
event, why does he not simply call it the Sabbath? This would be clear, and
it would be standard Jewish custom. It has never been the Jewish custom, in
John's day or before or since, to call the Sabbath the Lord's day. However,
as we shall see, Christians have consistently used the term to denote the
first day of the week. Indeed, I venture to say that, whenever the term is
used, and it is clear which day is meant, it is clear that the first day of
the week, commonly called Sunday, is meant. Now someone may object that I am
here appealing, not to the Holy Scriptures, but to the practice of the
post-New-Testament Church, and that this is not a legitimate authority. To
this I reply, that when we wish to know the meaning of any Greek or Hebrew
word found in Holy Scripture, we do not hesitate to admit as evidence the
use of that word in other authors of that time or shortly before or after.
Consider (to take the first example that comes to hand) the words BYSSOS and
BYSSINOS, which occur a total of six times in the New Testament, and are
translated "(fine) linen". As far as I can see, there is no way to
determine, simply by examining the words in their Scriptural context, that
they refer to linen rather than, say, to silk. Yet no translator hesitates,
because the meaning of the words is well known to us from numerous
references in ancient, or for that matter not so ancient, Greek writings. I
fail to see why we should not apply the same principle to determine the
meaning of the expression, "The Lord's Day," determining its meaning as used
by John by noting how other writers of Greek in that age and that corner of
the world, and moreover of that faith, used it.
Let us now examine some early references to Christian practice.
Pliny the Younger, governor of Bithynia, reported AD 112 to the Emperor
Trajan on the growing sect of Christians and his efforts to suppress them.
He says: They were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it
was light, when they sang an anthem to Christ as God, and bound themselves
by a solemn oath not to commit any wicked deed, but to abstain from all
fraud, theft, and adultery, never to break their word, or deny a trust when
called on to honor it; after which it was their custom to separate, and then
meet again to partake of food, but food of an ordinary and innocent kind.
The last clause refers to the popular rumor that Christians held cannibal
feasts. The letter does not name the day of meeting, but a pre-dawn hymn to
Christ would be most appropriate on the day of His resurrection.
When Ignatius of Antioch was being shipped in chains from Antioch to Rome to
be put to death there in the arena, he wrote letters to various Christian
churches along the route, six of which have been preserved. (A seventh is to
an individual, Polycarp of Smyrna, a disciple of the apostle John.) The date
is given in most reference works as about 110 AD. Since the emperor was
Trajan, the date would have to be 98-117 AD. In chapter 9 of his letter to
the Magnesians, he writes: We have seen how former adherents of the ancient
customs have since attained to a new hope, so that they have given up
keeping the Sabbath, and now order their lives by the Lord's Day instead --
the day when life first dawned for us, thanks to Him and His death.
Here Ignatius speaks of the Lord's Day, and clearly means a day different
from the Sabbath, and expects his readers to have no doubt which day he
means, and no doubt that this is the day on which Christians worship.
Either, at least in Antioch and in Asia Minor, there has been a complete
change from Saturday observance to Sunday observance, or else there has been
by about 110 a complete change from Saturday observance to XXXday
observance, followed within the next 40 years (as we shall see) by a
complete change from XXXday to Sunday. Absent any evidence for the double
change, it seems probable that around AD 110 the Christians of Syria and
Asia Minor observed Sunday, and certain that they did not observe Saturday.
Justin the Martyr, at that time residing in Rome, in his APOLOGY (Defense of
the Christians) addressed to the Emperor Antoninus Pius (AD 148-155),
appeals to the emperor for a repeal of those laws that prescribe the death
penalty for being a Christian. He describes Christian worship, assuring the
emperor that the rumors of evil orgies are false. In chapter 67 he writes:
The day of the Sun is the day on which we all gather in a common meeting,
because it is the first day, the day on which God, changing darkness and
matter, created the world; and it is the day on which Jesus Christ our
Savior rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of
Kronos, and on the day after that of Kronos, which is the Day of the Sun, He
appeared to His Apostles and disciples, and taught them these things which
we have also submitted to you for your consideration.
NOTE: Kronos is the Greek equivalent of the Latin Saturn. Hence the day of
Kronos and the day of the Sun are Saturday and Sunday respectively. For the
history of the names of the days of the week, the relevance thereof to Bible
study, and other matters, send the message, "GET GENESIS PART1 to
LISTSERV@UCF1VM".
Here there is no doubt that Justin is saying that Christians meet regularly
on the first day of the week, the day called Sunday, the anniversary of the
Resurrection.
Dionysius, Bishop of Corinth, wrote a letter between 166 and 174 AD to
Soter, Bishop of Rome, fragments of which are preserved by the
fourth-century historian Eusebius, including the following:
Today we have observed the Lord's holy day, in which we have read your
letter.
Dionysius does not explicitly tell us which day he means by the Lord's day,
but he is in touch with the Roman church, which (as we see from Justin) was
accustomed, at least a few years earlier, to observe Sunday. Assuming a
similarity of tradition between the two we have probable cause to suppose
that the Romans, who we know observed Sunday, called it the Lord's Day, and
that the Corinthians, who observed a day they called the Lord's Day, did so
on Sunday.
Thus we see many reasons to suppose that the change from Saturday to Sunday
as the day of the week particularly devoted to the glory of God, a change
that has certainly occurred, was one that took place already in New
Testament times, backed by the approval and example of Paul the Apostle and
John the Revelator. Moreover, if this change did not have the approval of
the Apostles, if they taught the early Christians to keep the Saturday
Sabbath, we must account somehow for the fact that the change occurred, that
it was universal, and that there is no trace whatsoever of any protest made
against the change, or of any individual or group that refused to go along
with the change. We find from a very early time disagreement on how to
calculate the time at which Easter should be celebrated, with different
calendars in use from the second to the fourth centuries, renewed
differences in Britain lasting until the late seventh century, and still
more differences beginning with the adoption of the Gregorian calendar in
1582. But never before the sixteenth century do we hear of any Christian
group that did not require Gentile Christians to be circumcised but did
require them to observe a Saturday Sabbath.
Having seen that the Scriptures point to the fact of such a change, and to
Apostolic approval of such a change, do they give any sign of the reason for
such a change?
One reason why such a change might be reckoned fitting is the difference
between Law and Grace. Under the Law, where men are rewarded for good deeds
and punished for bad ones, we work for six days and then are rewarded for
our efforts by a day of rest at the end of the week. Under Grace, where our
well-being is not earned but is a free gift of God, we are given spiritual
food and drink on the first day of the week, and are blessed and filled with
the Spirit of God, and this makes us so joyful and energetic that we rush
out and spontaneously devote the remaining six days of the week to good
works.
Having observed that the change from the seventh day to the first is in
accordance with the general spirit of each of the Two Covenants, let us
consider some explicit Scriptural references to the matter.
Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy....for in six days the LORD made
heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh
day; therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it. (Ex
20:6,11)
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed
away, behold the new has come. (2 Cor 5:17)
For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth, and the former things
shall not be remembered or come into mind. (Is 65:17)
The first Sabbath was given in honor of the first creation. But the
Resurrection of Christ accomplishes a new creation, more glorious than the
first, and the first creation is no longer to be commemorated, for joy in
the second.
You shall remember that you were a servant in the land of Egypt, and the
LORD your God brought you out thence with a mighty hand and an outstretched
arm; therefore the LORD your God commanded you to keep the Sabbath day. (Dt
5:15)
Therefore, behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when it shall no
longer be said, "As the LORD lives who brought up the children of Israel out
of the land of Egypt," but, "As the LORD lives, who brought up the people of
Israel out of the north country and out of all the countries where he had
driven them." ... O LORD, my strength and my stronghold, my refuge in the
day of trouble, to thee shall the Gentiles come from the ends of the earth.
(Jer 16:14-15,19)
And now the LORD says:... "It is too light a thing that you should be my
servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob and to restore the preserved of
Israel; I will give you as a light to the Gentiles, that my salvation may
reach to the ends of the earth." (Is 49:5,6)
The Sabbath was given to Israel to commemorate the deliverance from Egypt.
This is most plausibly understood by supposing that the Israelites' first
day of freedom, of deliverance from bondage, was kept by them as a Sabbath,
and every seventh day thereafter. (The Sabbath is not mentioned between
Genesis 1 and Exodus 16, but those who suppose that the Sabbath was kept in
an unbroken cycle from the Creation to the Exodus will not find this
inconsistent with the supposition that God arranged the emergence from the
Red Sea to occur just before the Sabbath.)
But Our Lord Jesus Christ accomplished a far greater deliverance when He
rose from the dead, leading captivity captive. If the day on which the
Israelites emerged from the Red Sea into freedom deserved to be commemorated
as a day of deliverance, the day on which all the ransomed of Christ are
delivered from the bondage of sin and death deserves to be commemorated with
a glory that far eclipses the former deliverance from a merely temporal
bondage.
The stone which the builders rejected has become the headstone of the
corner. This is the LORD's doing, and it is marvelous in our eyes. This is
the day which the LORD has made; let us rejoice and be glad in it. (Psalm
118:22-24)
What is the stone of which the Psalmist speaks? We are plainly told that it
is Jesus Christ (1P 2:7; Mt 21:42 = Mk 12:12 = Lk 20:17). When did the
builders reject Him? on Good Friday. How was He made the headstone of the
corner? by being raised from the dead on the following Sunday (Ac 4:10-11).
Accordingly we read, "This (that is, the Resurrection) is the LORD's doing,
and it is marvelous in our eyes. This (Sunday, the first day of the week,
the day of the Resurrection of Our Lord) is the day that the LORD has made.
Let us rejoice and be glad in it.
Amen! Alleluia! Praise the Lord! May you all have a blessed Easter now and
every Sunday of the year.
Yours,
James Kiefer
-------------------------------------------------------
bj
* (Libertarius) wrote:
> In <35A25F1D...@aloha.net> Michael Scheifler <mik...@aloha.net>
> writes:
> >
> >According to Pope John Paul II in his new apostolic letter Dies
> Domini:
> >
> > 14. In the first place, therefore, Sunday is the day of rest
Here, I take exception with the Pope. There is no reference I have found in
the Bible that God changed the Day of Rest from Sabbath to The Lord's Day.
Nor is there any refernece I have found that God changed the title of
Sabbath to The Lord's Day. They're 2 separate and distinct days. The
Sabbath (Saturday, or the 7th Day after the 1st Day-Sunday) and The Lord's
Day (Sunday)
I can't right off hand give you the 1st reference to The Lord's Day, but
it's there, in the Epistles, if anyone cares to look it up.
> because it is
> > the day "blessed" by God and "made holy" by him, set apart from the
> > other days to be, among all of them, "the Lord's Day".
We worship on Sunday as a celebration of the Resurrection, not on Saturday,
because that's the day He was in the grave.We worhip Sunday to celebrate
the lving Christ, not Saturday, see above.
The 1st known account recorded in the Bible, again in the Epistles,
occurred in Acts chapter 20 verse 7
"On the 1st day of the week (Sunday) we came together to break bread
(worship service). Paul spoke to the people and, because he intended to
leave the next day, kept on talking until midnight."
this is the event at which the boy fell asleep while sitting in the window.
He fell out of the window, and fell at least 2 stories, to his death. As
the crowd/family mourned the boy's death, Paul laid himself on top of the
boy and brought him back to life.
This is the 1st and only time I recall of Paul raising the dead.
While I don't agree with the Catholics /Pope on many issues, I believe the
Pope was trying to say Sunday was "blessed" by God and "made holy" because
after the Resurrection, Sunday became known as The Lord's Day to honor the
Lord who Rose on that day. Does it make sense now?
j
> >
> >Perhaps some scholarly Catholic out there could point out for us all
> >where in Scripture:>
> > - God blessed Sunday?
> > - God made Sunday holy?
> > - God set apart Sunday as "the Lord's Day?"
I don't know that there is a reference where God "set apart Sunday as 'the
Lord's Day'.It may have been a decision the Apostles made amongst
themselves, that God didn't object to, since they were honoring His Risen
Son.
God really does let us do some things independently, you know? Contrary to
the views of the non-believers.
I mean, I can brush with Crest today and with Colgate tomorrow without fire
coming down from heaven.
I prayed for severl months over which seminary to attend. No answer.
I finally gave up and asked my pastor.
He smiled pleasantly and said, "J, I think God's saying, "Your pick, child.
I don't care which seminary you attend. Both of your choices are just fine
with me. You pick, J." It was this same pastor, Dr. Jess Moody, who told me
I was also free to choose to brush with Crest or Colgate. All God cares is
that I brush.
"When God wants to intervene, you'll know. If you read the Bible and pray
regularly, you'll know what choices you can make and which ones to ask Him
about."
j
> >
> >You will not find Sunday, the first day, in the following verses,
> >you will only find the seventh-day Sabbath, which is Saturday.
> >
Acts 20:7On the 1st day of the week, we came together to worship. Paul got
up and preached.
j
> >Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it:
> >because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created
> and made.
> >
> >Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
> >Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
> >Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God:
> >in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter,
> >thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger
> >that is within thy gates:
> >Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea,
> >and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the
> LORD
> >blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
> >
> >So just where is the "thus saith the Lord" for Sunday holiness?
see above.we were also enjoined by big brother Saul/Paul to quit squabbling
between Jewish Christian and Gentile Christian over what day of the week to
worship. Evidently the Jews continued to demand Saturday worship (tho
Saturday was intended as a day of rest, and not NECESSARILY as a day of
worship--don't confuse the two) because that was their tradioin.
The Gentile believers were not bound by jewish law (evidenced by the fact
that I think it was Timothy, who was not a jew, was not required by the
council at jerusalem(the apostles who had remained there) to be
circumsized. Paul successfully pointed out that circumcision was for the
jews. IT was not to be forced upon gentiles, since the spiritual
circumcision (rebirth) was the one that truly mattered.
Paul told us to quit squabbling over Sabbath, as well as food, drink,
religious festiveals, and new moon festivals. These observations would be
VERY different for a jew than for a gentile.
as they are today.
even today, jewish Christians are free to leave their jewish traditions or
keep them. Gentiles are free to leave their traditions or keep them, as
long as those traditions don't contradict Holy Writ. Where the Catholic
(and other pagan errors) crept in was because of all the pagan traditions
(infant baptism) etc, the new gentile Christians insisted on keeping after
they supposedly became Christians. A whole new can of worms opened when
Paul went to Rome and opened a church there.
Roman was one of the most pagan cities on th eplanet, and the errors within
the church of the 2nd 3rd and 4th centures abounded into what is now the
Holy Roman Catholic abomination.
j
> >
> >Michael Scheifler
> >Bible Light Homepage
> >http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/
> >
> ===>The whole idea was invented by MEN, so why should it not be changed
> by men? To Friday or Sunday or even Tursday in honor of the god of
> THUNDER?
>
> Libertarius
> *DON'T CONFUSE FICTION WITH REALITY*
Rick
spirit on that day." This proves that Sunday is the sacred weekly rest-day of
the Christian church.
One wonders by what line of reasoning the oposers of the true Bible Sabbath can
assuredly declare that the Lord's day is synonymous for Sunday. There is only
one day described in the Bible that could lay claim to being the Lord's day and
that is the Sabbath of the fourth commandment. The Decalogue describes it as
"the sabbath of the Lord." Exodus 20:10. Isaiah tells us to call this day "the
holy of the Lord." Isaiah 58:12. Christ describes Himself as "Lord also of the
sabbath." Mark 2:28. John had heard the Saviour utter these words. He knew also
the words of the Decalogue and the words of the prophet Isaiah. How reasonable
then to conclude that he meant the Sabbath when he said "the lord's day."
The history of John's day offers an interesting suggestion as to why he used
"Lord's day" for Sabbath here in the Book of Revelation. Christianity was coming
into ever greater and greater conflict with pagan Rome. The caesars were often
deified, and Christians were sometimes called on to offer incense to them, or
forfeit their lives. There were emperor days, such as the emperor's birthday,
which took on a religious quality because of the blending of state and church.
The day when a caesar visited a certain city was ever afterward a holiday in
that city and known, by translation, as a worshipful day, a day worthy of
worship. The emperor Domitian was "accustomed to call himself and to be called
"lord and God,'" so says Philip Schaff in his History of the Christian Church,
vol. 2, page 44.
John had been banished to the isle of Patmos during the reign of Domitian, and
there he was favored with revelation of Christ's coming kingdom and glory. This
Lord he described as "King of kings, and Lord of lords." And how meaningful that
title was for the persecuted Christians who, at the cost of their lives, refused
to acknowledge Caesar as "Lord and God." In Revelation 1:20 John introduces his
first revelation of Christ's glory. In view of the Christian conflicts with
Rome, how natural for him, if that first vision was on the Sabbath, to declare
that he "was in the Spirit on the Lord's day," the day of the true Lord, whose
proof of lordship is His creatorship, which the Sabbath memorializes.
When the defenders of first-day sacredness cannot find any proof from the Bible
that the Sabbath of the fourth commandment has been changed to Sunday worship,
they usually use the writings of these early fathers to prove their contention.
A Catholic priest, Father Enright, chides Protestants who claim to take "the
Bible and the Bible only as the basis of their faith" in these words: "My
brethren, look about you upon the various wrangling sects and denominations.
Show me one that claims or possesses the power to make laws binding on the
conscience. There's but one on the face of the earth葉he Catholic Church葉hat
has the power to make laws binding upon the conscience, binding before God,
binding under pain of hell fire. Take for instance the day we celebrate祐unday.
What right have the Protestant churches to observe that day? None whatever. You
say it is to obey the commandment, 'Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy.'
But Sunday is not the Sabbath according to the Bible and the record of time.
Every one knows that Sunday is the first day of the week, while Saturday is the
seventh day and the Sabbath, the day consecrated as a day of rest. It is so
recognized in all civilized nations. I have repeatedly offered $1,000 to any one
who will furnish any proof from the Bible that Sunday is the day we are bound to
keep, and no one has called for the money. If any person in this town will show
me any scripture for it, I will tomorrow evening publicly acknowledge it ant
thank him for it. It was the Holy Catholic church that changed the day of rest
from Saturday to Sunday, the first day of the week. And it not only compelled
all to keep Sunday, but at the Council of Laodicea, 364 AD, anathematized those
who kept the Sabbath, and urged all persons to labor on the seventh day under
penalty of anathema.
"Which church does the whole civilized world obey? Protestants call us every
horrible name they can think of預ntichrist, the scarlet colored beast, Babylon,
etc., and yet by their solemn act of keeping Sunday they acknowledge the power
of the Catholic church. The Bible says, 'Remember the Sabbath day to keep it
holy.' But the Catholic church says, 'No, keep the first day of the week,' and
the whole world bows in obedience." Taken from a speech delivered at Harlan,
Iowa, and reported in The Industrial American, December 19, 1889.
Leaving the Word of God, which always from Genesis through Revelation authorizes
the sanctification of the seventh day, opposers of God's holy Sabbath turn to
the so-called early fathers. Are they reliable? Can we trust them? Paul warned
by the Spirit that false teachers bringing in changes from the holy faith would
soon come. He wrote this word of caution: "For I know this, that after my
departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also
of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away
disciples after them." Acts 20:29,30.
Dr. Adam Clark, recognized scholar and commentator, in his commentary on
Proverbs 8 wrote: "We may safely state, that there is not a truth in the most
orthodox creed, that cannot be proven by their [early fathers] authority; nor a
heresy that has disgraced the Romish Church that may not challenge them as it
abettors. In points of doctrine, their authority is, with me, nothing. The Word
of God alone contains my creed."
Who are some of these early fathers who are quoted so frequently on this
question of changing the day of worship from Saturday to Sunday? They are
Ignatius, Barnabas, Irenaeus, Clement, Tertullian, and Augustine. Here is
something that most Protestants do not know, that the Roman Catholic Church goes
to these same writers, the early fathers, to prove doctrines which are not in
the Bible and which no other church practices or believes today except the Roman
Catholic Church.
Let us take a few examples. Most defenders of first-day observance will quote
Ignatius, 101 AD, as favoring the first day instead of the seventh. In Cardinal
Gibbon's book Faith of Our Fathers, page 297, he is trying to prove that the
priest turns the bread into God and that this bread should be bowed to and
worshiped as God. To prove this idolatry should be practiced today he quotes
Ignatius condemning some of his day, "because they confess not that the
Eucharist is the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ." There is no dogma that the
Roman Catholic Church holds today more strongly than that the wafer which the
priest pronounces some Latin words over is the actual Son of God.
Another writer who is often quoted in favor of early first day observance is
Barnabas. First of all I must apologize to my readers for putting in print some
of the words of Barnabas, but that you may know what type of heresies there
early fathers sanctioned, we will quote a paragraph from Barnabas: "But he adds,
neither shalt thou eat the hare. To what end? To signify this to us: Thou shalt
not be an adulterer; nor liken thyself to such persons. For the hare every year
multiplies the places of its conception; and so many years it lives, so many it
has. Neither shalt thou eat of the hyena; that is, again, be not an adulterer,
nor a corrupter of others; neither be like such. And wherefore so? Because this
creature every year changes its kind and it is sometimes male and sometimes
female." Epistle of Barnabas, chapter 8:7-8. Again I say, I am ashamed to quote
such things to be read by others, but at the same time, I would be far more
ashamed if I, a Protestant minister, were to read from such a source to prove
first-day sacredness. But quoters of Barnabas know that not one in a thousand
know anything about the "epistle of Barnabas" and they can take advantage of
this ignorance to prove something which they cannot prove by the Bible!
Justin Martyr is another "authority" that is greatly relied upon to prove what
the Bible is silent about. Cardinal Gibbons, in his book Faith of Our Fathers,
page 297, quotes him to prove that the bread is Jesus Christ. And I quote: "The
Eucharist is both the flesh and blood of the same incarnate Jesus."
All these "authorities" prove what Paul meant when he said that after his
"departure" men would arise "speaking perverse things," and the fact that these
writings (supposed to have been done by these men) took place right after the
death of the apostles shows what Paul meant when he said, "the mystery of
iniquity doth already work." 2 Thessalonians 2:7.
In seeking to prove prayers for the dead, Cardinal Gibbons quotes Tertullian in
these words: "The faithful wife will pray for the soul of her deceased husband,
particularly on the anniversary day of his falling asleep. And if she fail to do
so she has repudiated her husband as far as it lies in her." There is nothing in
the Bible about praying for the dead, in fact God says, "The dead know not any
thing," that the living cannot help them. But to prove his point, Gibbons goes
to Tertullian.
Do I dare quote a paragraph from Clement of Alexandria, another of the early
fathers? "There is a certain bird called Phoenix; of this there is never but one
at a time; and that lives 500 years. And when the time of its dissolution draws
near, that it must die, it makes itself a nest of frankincense, and myrrh, and
other spices into which when its time is fulfilled it enters and dies. But its
flesh putrefying breeds a certain worm, which being nourished with the juice of
the dead bird brings forth feathers; and when it is grown to a perfect state, it
takes up the nest in which the bones of its parents lie, and carries it from
Arabia into Egypt. And flying in open day in the sight of all men, lays it upon
the altar of the sun, and so returns from whence it came." Chapter 12:2-4.
Think about being compelled to read from such a source to prove Sunday had
become the Sabbath!
May I close this portion of our book with a quotation from Philip Schaff,
eminent church historian? He quotes a "distinguished writer" as declaring that
when we move from the inspired writings of the fathers, it is like passing, "'by
a single step,'" from the verdant confines of "'an Eastern city in the desert'"
out "'into a barren waste.'" And it is into this "barren waste" the Sabbath
objector would lead us for proof of Sundaykeeping!
Quackenbush
eth...@ix.netcom.com(Edward Thorne) wrote:
> Actaully, what Jesus said was "YOu are kepha, and on this kepha I
>will build my church."
Actually, it's more like, "you are Petro and on this petra, I will build my
church."
IMPORTANT: To reply, remove "nospam." from the address.
Tammy
Jim Cork
> In article <1dby21t.xik...@111.0.152.76.165.in-addr.arpa>,
> jess...@naa.att.ne.jp (Jim Cork) wrote:
>
> > In other words, SDA's believe only in the Bible... plus Ellen White.
> > So... you *don't* believe in Sola Scriptura. If you did, Mrs. White
> > would not be considered to be "the Lord's messenger" or an
> > "authoritative source of truth." You can't have it both ways. You
> > can't have a modern-day prophet *and* be "Sola Scriptura."
>
> Typically from what I know about SDAs is that when two Adventists come to
> differing conclusions over biblical verses, then EGW is brought out. EGW
> represents "Tradition" in the same way as say, Saint Thomas Aquinas or Saint
> Augustine represents "Tradition" for a Catholic. If EGW is given the office
> of prophet or of a "lesser light" then "sola scriptura" is a doctrine that is
> not followed.
Exactly. Here's another contradiction, from the first line of their 27
beliefs, to which all SDA's assent on their baptism:
Seventh-day Adventists accept the Bible as their only creed and
hold certain fundamental beliefs to be the teaching of the Holy
Scriptures.
A "creed," according to the American Heritage Dictionary, is "a formal
statement of religious belief." In other words... the first line of
their statement of beliefs claims denies that it is such. But this
would explain your next comment...
> Also the SDA General Conference itself represents the magisterium the same as
> the bishops of the Catholic Church in union with the Pope are the
> magisterium. This is why churches and individuals are removed
> (excommunicated) from the SDA denomination: they are (typically from what I
> have observed) found not to be teaching the traditional Adventists doctrines
> or giving enough authority to EGW. (i.e. they place themselves beyond the
> teaching authority of the GC and outside of the Tradition of EGW.)
Yup. And then you have ultra-conservative groups (such as "The
Shepherd's Rod) claiming that the mainstream SDA's have apostasized...
somehow I think the number of Protestant denominations has been
underestimated. ;-)
Albert Alcoceba
<timo...@flash.net> wrote:
>What Biblical authority is there, if any, to change the Sabbath from the
>Seventh day of the week to the First day of the week?
>In Acts 20:7, we read: On the first day of the week, when we were gathered
>together to break bread, Paul talked with them, intending to depart on the
>morrow; and he prolonged his speech until midnight.
There is a problem in all this in that Sunday is not necessarily the
first day of the week!
In Spain, for example, which is just about 100% Roman Catholic, Sunday
is the Seventh day of the week, with Monday being the first. Just
check out any Spanish calendar.
cam...@my-dejanews.com
jess...@naa.att.ne.jp (Jim Cork) wrote:
> Exactly. Here's another contradiction, from the first line of their 27
> beliefs, to which all SDA's assent on their baptism:
>
> Seventh-day Adventists accept the Bible as their only creed and
> hold certain fundamental beliefs to be the teaching of the Holy
> Scriptures.
>
> A "creed," according to the American Heritage Dictionary, is "a formal
> statement of religious belief." In other words... the first line of
> their statement of beliefs claims denies that it is such. But this
> would explain your next comment...
Which is interesting about 'creed' since the text on the SDA offical web page
(http://www.adventist.org) the 27 fundamental beliefs are listed under "What
we believe". The definition in the dictionary for 'creed' is that it comes
from the latin 'credo' which means 'I believe'. Can an organization both say
that it is non-creedal and yet publish a list of '27 fundamental beliefs'?
Shekinah Street Ministries
First let me say well done on your previous article about the Roman Empire.
You will find in this news group that no matter what Scripture you use for
instruction, someone will change it to fit what they are trying to push as
truth,such as an Nebucanezza being reincarnated to be the antichrist. And
others that will tell you they are trying to save the church from being
destroyed by a false teaching about if and when a "Rapture" will occur.
I commend you for not getting caught up in the emotion that is
takeing over reason in this group, as so many others do. History about who
and when the Sabbath was changed is clear. The Romans changed it after
sacking Israel and destroying the Temple.Catholisim wasn't around yet so
they cant claim the Pope did it. The first century church,peter , paul and
all others still held the Sabbath as a command from God and taught about the
Messiah and His Ressurection in the Temple before it was destroyed and in
the streets and homes after it was destroyed. Rome was trying to wipe out
any thing that was a resemblence of the Jewish Faith,as the early church
was, and after 70 A.D. the believers in this new sect of judaism went
underground, and continued to hold the Sabbath ,until Catholism rearred its
ugly head around the fourth century.
This is History ,but some baby believers in this group will ignore
this fact, and cling on to some stupid tradition about Y'shua rising on that
day. No place in Scripture can this be found, it is offered by People who do
not know history or are afraid to say the church today is wrong and should
be holding the Sabbath Holy ,Just as The Messiah did.
Well done Dianne, it would seem you have learned history well.
Mike
--
http://www.sstm.org
Shekinah Street Ministries
taking Y'shua's Word and
Salvation to the Streets
Dianne Birtley wrote in message <35A83504...@shaw.wave.ca>...
Shekinah Street Ministries
Scripture and pass it off as a reason that the "Christians" gathered on
Sunday so we should hold that as our new Sabbath.Please read below and
forgive me but this needs to be addressed.
--
http://www.sstm.org
Shekinah Street Ministries
taking Y'shua's Word and
Salvation to the Streets
Timothy Consodine wrote in message <6oaft7$t73$1...@excalibur.flash.net>...
>Here's a pretty good explanation:
>
>http://www.flash.net/~timothyc/
>
>-------------------------------------------------------
>LORD'S DAY
>by James Kiefer
>
>What Biblical authority is there, if any, to change the Sabbath from the
>Seventh day of the week to the First day of the week?
>In Acts 20:7, we read: On the first day of the week, when we were gathered
>together to break bread, Paul talked with them, intending to depart on the
>morrow; and he prolonged his speech until midnight.
Shekinah-lets translate this passage to what it says and not what some would
like it to say.First lets agree its Sunday they are meeting.Second:Why?
Because as Jews (not christians)they could not meet in an asembly on the
Sabbath except in Temple. Third "breaking bread was not anything other then
eating togeather as was the custom at that time.
>Here Luke gives us to understand that the early Christians were gathered
for
>worship on the first day of the week. (I trust that it is not necessary for
>me to present evidence that the reference to the breaking of bread is to
the
>celebration of the Lord's Supper, also called the Eucharist.)
Shekinah-First they were not christians,but Jews(Luke was the only
non-Israeli among them and thought to be of Greek desent) Second: there is
no prof you can offer that would suggest that the breaking of bread at the
last supper or more accurately "The Passover Sader" was ever called by any
of the early Church Fathers the "Eucharist"
>objected that the text simply tells us that they were so gathered on that
>particular occasion, perhaps because Paul was about to leave the next day
>and wished to preach a farewell sermon,
Shekinah-Reading into Scripture always corrupts the outcome
>the day. But if this be the case, then why bother to mention the day of the
>week?
Shekinah-Because it was the first day after the Sabbath
> Luke does not in general refer to the day of the week, unless it has
>some connection with his narrative, as when he tells us that Paul preached
>in a synagogue on the Sabbath, where we understand that he did so because
>that was the principal day of assembly at the synagogue. Luke does not tell
>us, for example, that the riot at
>
>Ephesus was on the fourth day of the week, since that has nothing to do
with
>the riot. If he here mentions that it was the first day, it is because it
>was understood that that was the day when Christians normally assembled for
>the breaking of bread.
Shekinah- No ,"Believers came togeather on sunday because it was the first
day of the week that they could, without breaking the Sabbath Laws.
>Paul writes to the church at Corinth (1 Cor 16:1-2) about a proposed gift
of
>money from the churches of that area to the church at Jerusalem, which (for
>various reasons I have discussed elsewhere) was in desperate straits. He
>says: Now concerning the contribution for the saints: as I directed the
>churches of Galatia, so you also are to do. On the first day of every week,
>each of you is to put something aside and store it up, as he may prosper,
so
>that contributions need not be made when I come. And when I arrive, I will
>send those whom you accredit by letter to carry your gift to Jerusalem.
Shekinah-no matter how you say this it is considered a work and forbidden by
Sabbath law
>
>If we suppose that the church at Corinth and the church in Galatia
regularly
>met for worship on the first day of the week,
Shekinah-History tells another story
.then it is natural to
Shekinah-secular view of what a spiritual Church sould be doing , no
revelence
>John, in the Book of Revelation, begins his account of his visions by
>writing (1:10): I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day....
Shekinah- "The Sabbath" Y'shua said He is Lord of the Sabbath
>Here John speaks of the Lord's Day. What does he mean by this? Some say
that
>the term denotes no particular day, that every day is the Lord's day. But
in
>that event, John's statement means only that he was in the Spirit, with no
>indication of when. Surely he mentions the Lord's Day with the intent that
>we shall understand which day he means, and surely he does so because the
>day is significant, because it is a particularly appropriate day for him to
>be in the Spirit, a day especially set aside for prayer and praise and
>rejoicing in the Spirit. Some say that he refers to the Sabbath. But in
that
>event, why does he not simply call it the Sabbath? This would be clear, and
>it would be standard Jewish custom. It has never been the Jewish custom, in
>John's day or before or since, to call the Sabbath the Lord's day
Shekinah- The Sabbath that God set aside can be nothing else but "The Lords
Day"
Shekinah-"The Lords Prayer"
>The last clause refers to the popular rumor that Christians held cannibal
>feasts. The letter does not name the day of meeting, but a pre-dawn hymn to
>Christ would be most appropriate on the day of His resurrection.
Shekinah-pure supposition again
>When Ignatius of Antioch was being shipped in chains from Antioch to Rome
to
>be put to death there in the arena, he wrote letters to various Christian
>churches along the route, six of which have been preserved. (A seventh is
to
>an individual, Polycarp of Smyrna, a disciple of the apostle John.) The
date
>is given in most reference works as about 110 AD. Since the emperor was
>Trajan, the date would have to be 98-117 AD. In chapter 9 of his letter to
>the Magnesians, he writes: We have seen how former adherents of the ancient
>customs have since attained to a new hope, so that they have given up
>keeping the Sabbath, and now order their lives by the Lord's Day instead --
>the day when life first dawned for us, thanks to Him and His death.
Shekinah-I know God the Father,God the Son,God the Holy Spirit but have
never heard of god Ignatious
>Here Ignatius speaks of the Lord's Day, and clearly means a day different
>from the Sabbath, and expects his readers to have no doubt which day he
>means, and no doubt that this is the day on which Christians worship.
>Either, at least in Antioch and in Asia Minor, there has been a complete
>change from Saturday observance to Sunday observance, or else there has
been
>by about 110 a complete change from Saturday observance to XXXday
>observance, followed within the next 40 years (as we shall see) by a
>complete change from XXXday to Sunday. Absent any evidence for the double
>change, it seems probable that around AD 110 the Christians of Syria and
>Asia Minor observed Sunday, and certain that they did not observe Saturday.
Shekinah-The Roman Empire was very complete in wipeing out any reference to
any Jewish worship.Note this is 40 years after they sacked the Temple
>Justin the Martyr, at that time residing in Rome, in his APOLOGY (Defense
of
>the Christians) addressed to the Emperor Antoninus Pius (AD 148-155),
>appeals to the emperor for a repeal of those laws that prescribe the death
>penalty for being a Christian. He describes Christian worship, assuring the
>emperor that the rumors of evil orgies are false. In chapter 67 he writes:
>
>The day of the Sun is the day on which we all gather in a common meeting,
>because it is the first day, the day on which God, changing darkness and
>matter, created the world; and it is the day on which Jesus Christ our
>Savior rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of
>Kronos, and on the day after that of Kronos, which is the Day of the Sun,
He
>appeared to His Apostles and disciples, and taught them these things which
>we have also submitted to you for your consideration.
>NOTE: Kronos is the Greek equivalent of the Latin Saturn. Hence the day of
>Kronos and the day of the Sun are Saturday and Sunday respectively. For the
>history of the names of the days of the week, the relevance thereof to
Bible
>study, and other matters, send the message, "GET GENESIS PART1 to
>LISTSERV@UCF1VM".
Shekinah-Well lets count backwards from Sunday,He wasn't in the grave on
Sunday,so Sat is one day,Friday is two days, Thursday is three days, He must
have died on Wed. afternoon. In order to fulfill the prophesy,"The Son-of
Man will be in the grave for 3 days and 3 nights
>
>Here there is no doubt that Justin is saying that Christians meet regularly
>on the first day of the week, the day called Sunday, the anniversary of the
>Resurrection.
>Dionysius, Bishop of Corinth, wrote a letter between 166 and 174 AD to
>Soter, Bishop of Rome, fragments of which are preserved by the
>fourth-century historian Eusebius, including the following:
>
>Today we have observed the Lord's holy day, in which we have read your
>letter.
>Dionysius does not explicitly tell us which day he means by the Lord's day,
>but he is in touch with the Roman church, which (as we see from Justin) was
>accustomed, at least a few years earlier, to observe Sunday. Assuming a
>similarity of tradition between the two we have probable cause to suppose
>that the Romans, who we know observed Sunday, called it the Lord's Day, and
>that the Corinthians, who observed a day they called the Lord's Day, did so
>on Sunday.
Shekinah-Catholic reasoning will never justify changing the Sabath
>Thus we see many reasons to suppose that the change from Saturday to Sunday
>as the day of the week particularly devoted to the glory of God, a change
>that has certainly occurred, was one that took place already in New
>Testament times, backed by the approval and example of Paul the Apostle an
Shekinah- Paul never said not to keep or change the Sabbath
>John the Revelator.
Shekinah-Neither did John
Moreover, if this change did not have the approval of
>the Apostles, if they taught the early Christians to keep the Saturday
>Sabbath, we must account somehow for the fact that the change occurred,
that
>it was universal,
Shekinah-Check History,Rome did this
and that there is no trace whatsoever of any protest made
>against the change, or of any individual or group that refused to go along
>with the change.
Shekinah-To protest anything against Rome ment to die
>We find from a very early time disagreement on how to
>calculate the time at which Easter should be celebrated, with different
>calendars in use from the second to the fourth centuries,
Shekinah-More catholic rubish,Easter is a pagen Holiday
Only Passover was observed
renewed
>differences in Britain lasting until the late seventh century, and still
>more differences beginning with the adoption of the Gregorian calendar in
>1582. But never before the sixteenth century do we hear of any Christian
>group that did not require Gentile Christians to be circumcised but did
>require them to observe a Saturday Sabbath.
>
>Having seen that the Scriptures point to the fact of such a change, and to
>Apostolic approval of such a change, do they give any sign of the reason
for
>such a change?
Shekinah-I do not see Scripture going against a command of God
>
>One reason why such a change might be reckoned fitting is the difference
>between Law and Grace. Under the Law, where men are rewarded for good deeds
Shekinah-By this reasoning we should,lie ,steal and commit murder, as these
commands came after "Keep Holy The Sabbath"so they are less important
>and punished for bad ones, we work for six days and then are rewarded for
>our efforts by a day of rest at the end of the week. Under Grace, where our
>well-being is not earned but is a free gift of God, we are given spiritual
>food and drink on the first day of the week, and are blessed and filled
with
>the Spirit of God, and this makes us so joyful and energetic that we rush
>out and spontaneously devote the remaining six days of the week to good
>works.
>
>Having observed that the change from the seventh day to the first is in
>accordance with the general spirit of each of the Two Covenants, let us
>consider some explicit Scriptural references to the matter.
Shekinah-No, catholics would like us to believe this
>Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy....for in six days the LORD made
>heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh
>day; therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it. (Ex
>20:6,11)
Shekinah-exactly
>Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed
>away, behold the new has come. (2 Cor 5:17)
>For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth, and the former things
>shall not be remembered or come into mind. (Is 65:17)
Shekinah- regarding the sin nature
>The first Sabbath was given in honor of the first creation. But the
>Resurrection of Christ accomplishes a new creation, more glorious than the
>first, and the first creation is no longer to be commemorated, for joy in
>the second.
Shekinah-Since God the Son And God the father are one this argument would
say that God is divided against Himself.
>You shall remember that you were a servant in the land of Egypt, and the
>LORD your God brought you out thence with a mighty hand and an outstretched
>arm; therefore the LORD your God commanded you to keep the Sabbath day. (Dt
>5:15)
>Therefore, behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when it shall no
>longer be said, "As the LORD lives who brought up the children of Israel
out
>of the land of Egypt," but, "As the LORD lives, who brought up the people
of
>Israel out of the north country and out of all the countries where he had
>driven them." ... O LORD, my strength and my stronghold, my refuge in the
>day of trouble, to thee shall the Gentiles come from the ends of the earth.
>(Jer 16:14-15,19)
>
>And now the LORD says:... "It is too light a thing that you should be my
>servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob and to restore the preserved of
>Israel; I will give you as a light to the Gentiles, that my salvation may
>reach to the ends of the earth." (Is 49:5,6)
>The Sabbath was given to Israel to commemorate the deliverance from Egypt.
>This is most plausibly understood by supposing that the Israelites' first
>day of freedom, of deliverance from bondage, was kept by them as a Sabbath,
Shekinah-Passover is a Sabbath
>and every seventh day thereafter. (The Sabbath is not mentioned between
>Genesis 1 and Exodus 16, but those who suppose that the Sabbath was kept in
>an unbroken cycle from the Creation to the Exodus will not find this
>inconsistent with the supposition that God arranged the emergence from the
>Red Sea to occur just before the Sabbath.)
>
>But Our Lord Jesus Christ accomplished a far greater deliverance when He
>rose from the dead, leading captivity captive. If the day on which the
>Israelites emerged from the Red Sea into freedom deserved to be
commemorated
>as a day of deliverance, the day on which all the ransomed of Christ are
>delivered from the bondage of sin and death deserves to be commemorated
with
>a glory that far eclipses the former deliverance from a merely temporal
>bondage.
Shekinah- Y'shua is our Passover Lamb
>The stone which the builders rejected has become the headstone of the
>corner. This is the LORD's doing, and it is marvelous in our eyes. This is
>the day which the LORD has made; let us rejoice and be glad in it. (Psalm
>118:22-24)
>What is the stone of which the Psalmist speaks? We are plainly told that it
>is Jesus Christ (1P 2:7; Mt 21:42 = Mk 12:12 = Lk 20:17). When did the
>builders reject Him? on Good Friday. How was He made the headstone of the
>corner? by being raised from the dead on the following Sunday (Ac 4:10-11).
>Accordingly we read, "This (that is, the Resurrection) is the LORD's doing,
>and it is marvelous in our eyes. This (Sunday, the first day of the week,
>the day of the Resurrection of Our Lord) is the day that the LORD has made.
>Let us rejoice and be glad in it.
Shekinah- Once again, you canot get three days from friday to the begining
of sunday anyway you cut it.
another false teaching
>
>Amen! Alleluia! Praise the Lord! May you all have a blessed Easter now and
>every Sunday of the year.
Shekinah-Easter is a pagen holiday and has no relation to the Church started
by Y'shua.
Sunday is the first day of the week and this has no relation to the Sabbath
>Yours,
>James Kiefer
>-------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
Joseph Paul
: I commend you for not getting caught up in the emotion that is
: takeing over reason in this group, as so many others do. History about who
: and when the Sabbath was changed is clear. The Romans changed it after
: sacking Israel and destroying the Temple.
St. Justin Marytr says that they gathered on the day called the day of the
Sun (Sunday) to worhip. (His first Apology written 150AD)
:Catholisim wasn't around yet so
: they cant claim the Pope did it. The first century church,peter , paul and
: all others still held the Sabbath as a command from God and taught about the
: Messiah and His Ressurection in the Temple before it was destroyed and in
: the streets and homes after it was destroyed. Rome was trying to wipe out
: any thing that was a resemblence of the Jewish Faith,as the early church
: was, and after 70 A.D. the believers in this new sect of judaism went
: underground, and continued to hold the Sabbath ,until Catholism rearred its
: ugly head around the fourth century.
So when was the sabath changed. It must have been before 150AD. or are you
just making this up on speculation or do you say Justin Marytr was a fake.
(What about Orthodoxy, they worship on ressurection day)
: This is History ,but some baby believers in this group will ignore
: this fact, and cling on to some stupid tradition about Y'shua rising on that
: day.
And on the first day of the week while it was still dark ....
Seams to me that this account of the ressurection shows that
a) Jesus rose on Sunday
b) Jesus rose Saturday night and appeared to Mary Magneline on
Sunday
remember Sunday Starts Saturady at sundown (our calendar)
: No place in Scripture can this be found, it is offered by People who do
: not know history or are afraid to say the church today is wrong and should
: be holding the Sabbath Holy ,Just as The Messiah did.
If you choose, keep Saturday Holy, and then on Sunday commerate the
Ressurection of our Lord and saviour Jesus Christ. who rose from the dead
to free us from sin.
--
<Joseph Paul><jp...@engsoc.carleton.ca><Computer Systems Engineering>
<Carleton University><IVCF Treasurer><St. Marys's Church> ....
"Rejoice always; pray without ceasing; in everything give thanks"
1st Thessalonians 5: 16-18 ** I wish I could do this **
Jim Garlits
original no longer exists (none of the greek originals exist for any of the
biblical documents, though). Add to that the fact that as a Jew speaking to
Jews, Jesus would have spoken to his disciples in aramaic when He taught
them. So Jesus would have actually said, "You are kepha, and on this kepha
I will build my church."
Add to THAT the earlier transliterations in the gospel accounts that tell us
Jesus said to Peter, when they first met, "You are Simon...you shall be
called Cephas." And you've got a really strong argument for the Catholic
position.
Jim G.
Quackenbush wrote in message
<6obpi0$9ecs$2x...@newssvr04-int.news.prodigy.com>...
Gary
>
> In article <6o1au3$j...@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> ,
> eth...@ix.netcom.com(Edward Thorne) wrote:
>
> > Actaully, what Jesus said was "YOu are kepha, and on this kepha I
> >will build my church."
>
> Actually, it's more like, "you are Petro and on this petra, I will build my
> church."
No. "Kepha" is aramaic for Rock and Aramaic is what Jesus, the apostles
and every other Jew of that time used for their common language. When
they spoke to each other they used Aramaic, so, Jesus wouldn't have used
the Greek translation of the word for rock (as you have above); rather,
He would have used the Aramaic; i.e. Kepha. In addition, this name is
preserved for us in the Scripture but since I don't have a bible handy I
can't look it up.
Gary
cam...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> In article <35A6C894...@tier2.com>,
> Gary <ga...@tier2.com> wrote:
>
> > The very fact that He was raised from the dead on Sunday makes it a
> > special (holy literally means "set apart") day. Something is made Holy
> > by God's presence not by an official proclamation (although there could
> > be a proclomation which tells us something is holy it is His presence
> > that makes it so.)
> >
>
> This is verified by scripture too. Speaking of the wilderness tabernacle,
> God said, "And there I will meet with the children of Israel, and the
> tabernacle shall be sanctified by my glory" (Exodus 29:43). God literally
> came into the sanctuary tent, revealing His presence through the Shekinah.
> Something becomes holy because of God's presence. For example, the ground
> near the burning bush was holy because God was there (Exodus 3:5).
>
> "For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of
> them" (Matthew 18:20).
>
> Whenever during the week we gather in Christ's name--Sunday through Saturday
> His presence makes that time holy.
>
Gary
>
> Yea yea yea. Jesus appeared to the apostles on Sunday and returned againthe
> following Sunday. That is all I ever hear about. What about the fact that he
> returned again a week later on Monday. does that say something about Monday now.
But He also rose on Sunday and every Sunday is a celebration, like
Easter, of His resurection.
bj
Acts 20:7
On the 1st day of the week (Sunday, last time I looked), we came together to break
bread. Paul spoke to the people and, because he intended to leave th enex day, kept on
talking until midnight. NIV Scofield Bible.
The footnote says:
Although Paul was in Troas severn days, v.6, apparently neither he nor the local church
met for the breaking of bread (church service) until th efirst day of the week.
The fact that Paul and others sometimes atended Sabbath services in Jewish synagogues
Acts 17:1-3 does not prove that the apostolic Church kept the weventh day as a special
day of worship. It olnly shows that the early missionaries took the Gospel message
wheverver and whenever they found people gatehred together.
This preaching was carried on daily (Acts 2:47; 17:17; 19:9) in every possible way. (I
Cor 9:19-22)
The early churches were specifically warned against submittint themselves to the bondage
of any legalistic observance of Sabbath days (Col 2:16; Gal 4:9-11) On th eother hand,
in the exercise of their Christian liberty (Rom 14:5-6) these same churches voluntarily
chose the fisrst day of the week as an appropriate time for fellowship and worhips (Acts
20:7; 1 Cor 16:2), the day on which the Lord arose and repeatedly appeared to His
disciples (John 20:19-24, 25-29). It was a new day for a new people belonging to a new
creation. (2 Cor 5:17)
This observation of the first day of the week is corroborated by the early fathers: in
the writings of Barnabas (c.A.D. 100), Ignatius (A.D. 107), Justin Martyr (A.D.
145-150), and Irenaeus (A.D. 155-202). The edict of Laodicea (4th C. A.D.) did not
change the day of worship from the seventh to the first day of the week, as sometimes
alleged, but rather put the stamp of official approvel upon an observance already long
established in the early churches.
Perhaps the fact that Sunday worship is not more emphasized in scriptuer after the
Resurrection is that it was not considered a big deal. But squabbles arose, and several
of those are mentioned. Paul, in Colossians, said we should quick bickeirng over food,
drink, festivals, and Sabbaths.
j
Dianne Birtley wrote:
> No, I don't. But hey, the Bible is the only inspired word of God. So, if the Bible
> says one thing, and Peter says that he has declaired all of the teachings of God.
> And the change of the day of worship which is of great importance if it is truth,
> was omitted from the Bible, then I would assume that God nor Jesus intended for the
> day to change. If the day was not supposed to change then the folks that worship on
> Sunday are breaking the commandments and the folks that changed the day would be
> guilty of changing God's times and Laws. Sound familiar. And then we understand
> how the whole world will wonder after the beast holding for doctrine the traditions
> of man.
>
> Theodore M. Seeber wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 8 Jul 1998, Dianne Birtley wrote:
> >
> > > I cannot find anywhere in the Bible where the apostles said the day was
> > > changed. I can't find anywhere thta they regarded Sunday or the first day of
> > > the week more than the Sabbath. I cannot find that they made Sunday holy. If
> > > you can, please let me know.
But Acts 20:7 states very clearly that Paul was at Troas for 7 days, but there is no
mention of any worship service until Sunday.j
> >
> > Do you think that the only records of the Apostles or of Jesus Christ are
> > in the Bible?
> > What a strange idea.
> > Ted
> >
no. we have the weriting of the apostles, the disciples, and MANY of their
commentaries.j
> > mailto:seebe...@bigfoot.com
> > http://www.teleport.com/~seebert
> >
> > If you believe in government of the people, for the people, by the people,
> > and in fact no separation between people and government, click on the
> > above link.
Jim Cork
> Which is interesting about 'creed' since the text on the SDA offical web page
> (http://www.adventist.org) the 27 fundamental beliefs are listed under "What
> we believe". The definition in the dictionary for 'creed' is that it comes
> from the latin 'credo' which means 'I believe'. Can an organization both say
> that it is non-creedal and yet publish a list of '27 fundamental beliefs'?
I dunno... methinks the GC could use a theological dictionary. After
all, they never could tell the difference between "apostasy" and
"heresy." ;-)
Well, wish me luck. Jess and I are going back home to visit the folks
for a month... I'm making sure I bring my rosary just in case my parents
want us to go to church with them this Saturday. <g> I'll be off the
newsgroup until mid-Auagust, but I'll still be checking my e-mail.
Scott Maurer
Quackenbush wrote:
> In article <6o1au3$j...@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> ,
> eth...@ix.netcom.com(Edward Thorne) wrote:
>
> > Actaully, what Jesus said was "YOu are kepha, and on this kepha I
> >will build my church."
>
> Actually, it's more like, "you are Petro and on this petra, I will build my
> church."
>
> IMPORTANT: To reply, remove "nospam." from the address.
>
> Tammy
>
> -------------------------------------------
> Jeff and Tammy Quackenbush
> vamp...@nospam.prodigy.net
> vamp...@nospam.hotmail.com
> Note: Remove "nospam." from the addresses above.
Sorry Tammy, but Ed was correct. The language that Jesus would have spoken
would be either Hebrew or more likely Aramaic, not Greek. In Aramaic there is
only one word for rock (used for all sized rocks) and that word is "kepha" or
"cepha".
Your's in Christ
Scott Maurer
Dianne Birtley
sunset, then Paul spoke from the sunset at the end of the Sabbath to midnight.
Midnight would be aboyt six hours later. There is only one midnight to Sunday,
and that is before the morning. In todays terms, this would be a Sabbath
evening chat. The note about breaking bread. The Bible says taht they broke
bread every day. This means that the act of breaking bread has nothing to do
with the day being holy. Lastly, Paul chatted with them that night because he
was travelling the next day. He was probably concerned that he may never see
them again, so he chatted with them from the end of the Sabbath, until the
morning.
Dianne Birtley
If the resurrection was so significant, why don't we celebrate it annually.
Why did we pick a pagan holiday to apply to our Lord Jesus. If Easter
was the day of His resurrection, why does it change every year. Folks,
it is simple. Sunday worship follows the same pagan worship of the
sun. Hey, even in the Catechism is states in reference to Sunday
worship, Catechism of the Catholic Church Page 331 "...If the pagans
call it the 'day of the sun,' we willingly agree, for today the light of
the world is raised, today is revealed the sun of justice
with healing in his rays."
Dianne Birtley
to keep the 7th day holy. Then it tells us that Jesus was resurrected on the
first day of the week. We all understand that he was resurrected on Sunday.
Therefore, the day before must be the Sabbath and the seventh day. The
Catholics say that Sunday is the first day of the week and the eight day. No
matter what they say, it is perfectly clear that Saturday is the seventh day
and the Sabbath.
Albert Alcoceba wrote:
> On Sun, 12 Jul 1998 08:40:31 -0500, "Timothy Consodine"
> <timo...@flash.net> wrote:
>
> >What Biblical authority is there, if any, to change the Sabbath from the
> >Seventh day of the week to the First day of the week?
> >In Acts 20:7, we read: On the first day of the week, when we were gathered
> >together to break bread, Paul talked with them, intending to depart on the
> >morrow; and he prolonged his speech until midnight.
>
Dianne Birtley
you. Sure you are Peter (Petro- a mere pebble), and on this rock (Petra - on
me, Jesus) I will build my church.
Dianne Birtley
Bible. If I never met Leo, I would have held onto many different and false
ideas. I thought I understood the Bible but there were many things that I read
and never saw. It is amazing how long it takes to wake up and see what is
chrystal clear in the Bible. Thanks again for your comments.
Shekinah Street Ministries wrote:
> Hi Dianne
> First let me say well done on your previous article about the Roman Empire.
> You will find in this news group that no matter what Scripture you use for
> instruction, someone will change it to fit what they are trying to push as
> truth,such as an Nebucanezza being reincarnated to be the antichrist. And
> others that will tell you they are trying to save the church from being
> destroyed by a false teaching about if and when a "Rapture" will occur.
> I commend you for not getting caught up in the emotion that is
> takeing over reason in this group, as so many others do. History about who
> and when the Sabbath was changed is clear. The Romans changed it after
> sacking Israel and destroying the Temple.Catholisim wasn't around yet so
> they cant claim the Pope did it. The first century church,peter , paul and
> all others still held the Sabbath as a command from God and taught about the
> Messiah and His Ressurection in the Temple before it was destroyed and in
> the streets and homes after it was destroyed. Rome was trying to wipe out
> any thing that was a resemblence of the Jewish Faith,as the early church
> was, and after 70 A.D. the believers in this new sect of judaism went
> underground, and continued to hold the Sabbath ,until Catholism rearred its
> ugly head around the fourth century.
> This is History ,but some baby believers in this group will ignore
> this fact, and cling on to some stupid tradition about Y'shua rising on that
> day. No place in Scripture can this be found, it is offered by People who do
> not know history or are afraid to say the church today is wrong and should
> be holding the Sabbath Holy ,Just as The Messiah did.
> Well done Dianne, it would seem you have learned history well.
> Mike
>
> --
> http://www.sstm.org
> Shekinah Street Ministries
> taking Y'shua's Word and
> Salvation to the Streets
Dianne Birtley
Especially when he is supposed to be going back to the Father, resting on the day that
the Father gave to the world as a day to enter His rest, would be a good idea. Lastly,
folks, Sunday is as pagan a day of worship, as Easter is. Every year, on a specific
day is your birthday. It doesn't matter if it were a Sunday, or Wednesday. Easter
does not fall on the same day each year. Now many have said that Easter shifts because
we like to keep it on Sunday to celebrate the resurrection, however, sometimes the
shift in the day of Easter varies over up to three weeks. But if you study the history
of this pagan practice, you will find that Easter, the celebration of fertility, comes
on the first Sunday, after the first full moon after the equinox. Yep, this is the day
that we celebrate for Jesus who came to bring his people away from pagan worship. And
have you ever asked what bunny rabbits and eggs have to do with God, Jesus, or saving
souls. Nothing, but it does have alot to do with Sunday pagan worship.
Rick
> just making this up on speculation or do you say Justin Marytr was a fake.
> (What about Orthodoxy, they worship on ressurection day)
Oh yeah, sure, but I prefer the Bible over the "early fathers"
Especially in light of what Paul said in 2Thess 2:7 and what was written in Acts 20:29,30.
See http://www.tagnet.org/ooltewah/sabbath.htm#32 for further information
Legatus
> There is only one text in the Bible that uses the term, the Lord's Day.
This verse,
*******SNIP**********
> world is raised, today is revealed the sun of justice with healing in
his rays."
Once again, why did you need to send us ***500*** lines for a 14 line reply?
--
Steve
"You there, with the mitre! To you I address myself..."
St Anthony of Padua, Hammer of Heretics, pray for us.
*Email address spamtected: "bellsouth.net"
cam...@my-dejanews.com
dianne....@shaw.wave.ca wrote:
It doesn't matter if it were a Sunday, or Wednesday.
Easter
> does not fall on the same day each year. Now many have said that Easter
shifts because
> we like to keep it on Sunday to celebrate the resurrection, however, sometimes
the
> shift in the day of Easter varies over up to three weeks. But if you study
the history
> of this pagan practice, you will find that Easter, the celebration of
fertility, comes
> on the first Sunday, after the first full moon after the equinox. Yep, this
is the day
> that we celebrate for Jesus who came to bring his people away from pagan
worship.
You don't have a *clue* about how the date of Passover is calculated do you?
Joseph Paul
: Oh yeah, sure, but I prefer the Bible over the "early fathers"
I do to, but you should at least know what they said. Therfore if you
claim that the sabath was wrongfully changed it, based on YOUR
intrepretation of scripture, then it must have been done between 70AD and
150AD. That gives you only 80 years. I prefer to think that worshiping on
Sunday was common for most of the non Jewish converts.
Dianne Birtley
dont get it with 500 lines either. There is so much evidence to confirm the
sanctity of the Sabbath, and there are also warnings that the whole world will be
following false teachings at the end time, like today, and there are many sources
to show the adoption of the church of pagan practices like Sunday worship. I would
figure that 14 lines would have been enough.
Legatus wrote:
> In article <35AAC357...@shaw.wave.ca>, dianne....@shaw.wave.ca wrote:
>
> > There is only one text in the Bible that uses the term, the Lord's Day.
> This verse,
> *******SNIP**********
> > world is raised, today is revealed the sun of justice with healing in
> his rays."
>
Legatus
> I send 500 lines, because you guys dont get it when I send 14 lines. No
doubt, you
> dont get it with 500 lines either. There is so much evidence to confirm the
> sanctity of the Sabbath, and there are also warnings that the whole
world will be
> following false teachings at the end time, like today, and there are
many sources
> to show the adoption of the church of pagan practices like Sunday
worship. I would
> figure that 14 lines would have been enough.
That isn't what I'm annoyed with. I'm referring to your 14 line reply
followed by *500* lines of previous messages in both text and html
formats...and then because you posted in BOTH formats we got it TWICE in
the same message giving us a total of *500* lines. 486 of which were
POINTLESS.
Albert Alcoceba
<dianne....@shaw.wave.ca> wrote:
>The Bible tells us what day the Sabbath is. First of all, it says that we are
>to keep the 7th day holy. Then it tells us that Jesus was resurrected on the
>first day of the week. We all understand that he was resurrected on Sunday.
Based on what? If we take the 7th day to be Sunday (which we should
keep holy) and Jesus being resurected on a Monday... where is that in
contradiction to any scriptures?
Dianne Birtley
something to do with it. We know that Jesus expected them to be keeping the
Sabbath as the day of worship because he told them to pray that they would
not have to flee in the winter or on the Sabbath. So I guess, since a pagan
culture invaded and destroyed Jerusalem, that could have been where the pagan
influence came about. Consider the Sunday worship habbit and the Sunday
pagan worship of Tamus. Consider the Pagan holiday of Ishtar, on the first
sunday, after the first full moon after the equanox. Now Easter is allways
on the first Sunday, after the first full moon, after the equanox. And the
celebration of the day of Christ's resurrection is not on the same day each
year. But why don't people see the pagan influence in the church. It is not
Biblical. There are several other examples, Christmas, Rosery beads, Many
pagan practices depicted on stained glass in the churches. Even the cross
has been changed in some cases to include the sun disc in its midst or the
rays of the sun. And these things are all over our churches. Keeping the
pagan day of worship rather than the holy day set aside by God is what
Revelation means "the whole world will wonder after the beast. Holding for
doctrine the traditions of men.
cam...@my-dejanews.com
dianne....@shaw.wave.ca wrote:
> I send 500 lines, because you guys dont get it when I send 14 lines. No
doubt, you
> dont get it with 500 lines either. There is so much evidence to confirm the
> sanctity of the Sabbath, and there are also warnings that the whole world will
be
> following false teachings at the end time, like today, and there are many
sources
> to show the adoption of the church of pagan practices like Sunday worship. I
would
> figure that 14 lines would have been enough.
>
Where in the bible does it say that worship on Sunday is wrong? (Or on any
day other that Saturday is wrong?) You know, a verse that says "The Lord
says if you worship on Sunday you are doooooommmmmmmed."
Dianne Birtley
Excellent point. I can see how that will be annoying.
Legatus
> Ooops, Sorry Steve.
>
> Excellent point. I can see how that will be annoying.
MUCH better. :)
cam...@my-dejanews.com
dianne....@shaw.wave.ca wrote:
Consider the Sunday worship habbit and the Sunday
> pagan worship of Tamus. Consider the Pagan holiday of Ishtar, on the first
> sunday, after the first full moon after the equanox. Now Easter is allways
> on the first Sunday, after the first full moon, after the equanox. And the
> celebration of the day of Christ's resurrection is not on the same day each
> year. But why don't people see the pagan influence in the church. It is not
> Biblical.
Hey Dianne,
Did you know that the Passover starts of the first full moon after the spring
equinox? You ought to look it up--it is in the bible. Did you know that it
was during the Passover that Christ--the Lamb of God--was slain on the Cross,
and that He rose on the third day, which was a Sunday? You ought to look it
up--it is in the bible.
gree...@my-dejanews.com
> the day "blessed" by God and "made holy" by him, set apart from the
> other days to be, among all of them, "the Lord's Day".
>
> where in Scripture:
>
> - God blessed Sunday?
> - God made Sunday holy?
>
> You will not find Sunday, the first day, in the following verses,
> you will only find the seventh-day Sabbath, which is Saturday.
>
> because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
>
> Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
> Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
> Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God:
> in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter,
> thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger
> that is within thy gates:
> Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea,
> and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD
> blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
>
> So just where is the "thus saith the Lord" for Sunday holiness?
>
Look people, why is this so difficult. JP II's purpose is to call attention
to the need to observe the day attributed in his church to give praise and
thanksgiving. So what if it is a Catholic borrowing and changing of the
Jewish Sabbath, so what if it is the 7th or the 1st day of the week, so what
if it was on a Wednesday back in the 1500's before the 10 day jump in the
calendar. The facts don't change the intent: whatever your faith stance, if
you believe in God, make time for Him in your life. JP II is merely trying to
bolster his own rationale based on the teachings and tradition of his
religion. What is wrong with that. That is exactly what everyone in this
thread appears to be doing. Get over it. Really, you all sound like the
Pharisees and the Sadducees all over again. This is not thelogical discourse.
This is name calling. Unity comes through understanding the positions of
others, not making statements like "you're wrong, think like me or else." If
you want to share your traditions with one another that's great, but why must
you attack and shove this and that down each others throats. It seems
senseless to me when there is a lot more of value from the various traditions
represented in this thread. Anyway, that's my two cents.
Mark
Dianne Birtley
great thing about God. He understands what our culture understands. In our
culture, we know that Saturday is the sabbath. We also understand that Sunday is
the first day of the week. You no not have to look to the Bible for this. Most
dictionaries and encyclopedias will tell you this. If you still don't know. Pick
up your phone and dial any number and ask the person that answers what day is the
first day of the week. Now that that is settled, now we can proceed. We are to
worship on the seventh day, which oddly enough is the day we also understand to be
the Sabbath. Coincidence, I don't think so. Now all we have to do is observe the
Sabbath as outlined in the scriptures.
Dianne Birtley
ONLY day that god made holy is the seventh day. Now, some folks only work a few
days each week. The keep the seventh day holy and the also choose to worship on
other days. I also know of folks that work monday to friday, but after work on
wednesday they go to Bible study or on Sunday morning the go to Prayer meeting.
There is nothing wrong with that. But there is only one day that was blessed and
made holy. That is the seventh day. And sure enough, this is the day that God said
to keep holy repeating the passage from Genesis of God working six days and resting
on the seventh, and God called this day the Sabbath or day of rest. I feel, that if
you are well off enough to be able not to work during the rest of the week and you
are able to keep the sabbath day holy and worship on other days as well, them that
is a great thing. But for the rest of us, keeping the Sabbath holy is what is
required.
cam...@my-dejanews.com
So since I, as a good Catholic, go to Mass daily (including Saturday) and I
have only a five-day workweek, (Monday through Friday) I can be considered a
sabbathkeeper? I meet with others in a holy convocation. I do not work.
Cheers!
-e
Gary
>
> Exactly, it was a play on words. In other words, Peter, this is a bit beyond
> you. Sure you are Peter (Petro- a mere pebble), and on this rock (Petra - on
> me, Jesus) I will build my church.
Except that isn't what He said. Jesus gave peter his name (rock) and He
named Peter the Aramaic word for rock (not the Greek which is a
translation of the Aramaic) which is Kephas (sometimes spelled Cephas).
Further Jesus is speaking to Peter in the Statement "your are rock
(Peter)..." and the sentence is totally twisted when you try to force it
to mean "You are Rock (i.e. peter) and on this rock (i.e. Jesus) I will
build my Church"! Why does He bring Peter into it at all? Why does
Jesus pick this particualr time or confusing way to say He (Jesus) is
the rock on which the Church will be built? Why does He name Peter
Kephas (Rock) when only God had ever been referred to in that way up
until this time? This makes since only if Jesus is speaking about Peter
as the 'rock' on which He would build the Church.
"You are Kephas and on this Kephas I will build my Church" is what He
said (in Aramaic of course). Or "Your are Rock and on this rock I will
build my Church"
Michael Scheifler
> Jesus gave the Apostles the power to bind and to loose. So, when they
> changed the weekly observance from saturday to sunday, in honor of his
> resurrection, that was well within their authority.
So when the Pope says the following in Dies Domini-
14. In the first place, therefore, Sunday is the day of rest because it is
the day "blessed" by God and "made holy" by him, set apart from the
other days to be, among all of them, "the Lord's Day".
you are proposing that it was not God Himself that blessed, sanctified,
and set apart the Sunday, but rather it was the Catholic Church doing so,
and binding God and His people to that change?
Note this verse in Daniel, that speaks of the little horn power:
Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High,
and shall wear out the saints of the most High,
and think to change times and laws [of the most high]: ...
> When people challenge that decision, they are challenging Jesus,
> because whatever the Apostles did was the same as if it were Jesus
> doing it. Such persons, if they will not listen even to the church,
> should be to us as the heathen and the publican.
Who should we listen to, the little horn power of Daniel, the Catholic
Church who thinks to change God's times and laws, or to God's word as
found in scripture?
Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God:
1 John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments,
is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1 John 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of
God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments:
and his commandments are not grievous.
God's commandment speaks of remembering the seventh day sabbath, but
the alleged holiness of Sunday is not to be found anywhere in scripture
and is nothing but the tradition of men, commanded only by Catholic Church.
As for me, I will listen to Jesus and not the Pope.
John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love;
even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
Dianne Birtley
rituals before Christ came to this earth that esisted on this day. Christ being
raised on the Sunday is important, but what is more important to Christians is that
he rested in the tomb on the sabbath, thta he resurrected on the third day as out
lined in prophecy and that he lived as we should live. The pagans worshipped on
Sunday andrealised that Jesus being resurrected on the day of their celebration
simply christianized the practice. Look around you. Easter is a great day
bringing attention to the god of fertility. Bunnies, eggs, chickens etc. I see
clear evidence today of the pagan root of the celebration.
Edward Thorne
<dianne....@shaw.wave.ca> writes:
>
>OK, so you still feel that Jesus would have wanted the day changed.
We don't know what Jesus wanted. But we do know that after the
Christians left Jerusalem and Judea and the temple was destroyed, and
since they had been kicked out of the synagogue, and since the growing
majority of new Christians were gentiles, it was only natural that the
weekly worship observance was changed to sunday.
Then
>tell me, why would Jesus in discussing the destruction of Jerusalem
which
>was to happen 30-40 years after His death, say in Matthew 24:20 "But
pray
>ye that your flightbe not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day.
Well, they understood sabbath day. It intensified the meaning of what
he was saying. To say that you shoiuld not pray that your flight not
be on a Monday would be have been met with a "what? what does that
mean?" kind of response.
But, see, you have to accept the decision of the church on this matter,
and because you don't, you are the one who has the problem.
Please tell me, why don't you accept the church's decision?
>
>Ac 13:14 But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in
>Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down.
Naturally. That is where they can make the most impact to the most
people.
>Ac 13:27 For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because
they
>knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every
>sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him.
And they are talking about JEwish worship.
>Ac 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the
Gentiles
>besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
Of course, the synagogue meets on the sabbath.
>Ac 13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together
to
>hear the word of God.
>Ac 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach
him,
>being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
>Ac 16:13 And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side,
where
>prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women
which
>resorted thither.
>Ac 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three
sabbath
>days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,
>Ac 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded
the
>Jews and the Greeks.
>Then in verse 11, And he continued there a year and six months,
teaching
>the word of God among them.
>
>Where is it inferred that the apostles worshipped on Sunday.
>
*Sigh* You weary me with your obstinacy.
We have Paul preaching on Sunday.
We have the church worshipping on sunday.
It does not have to be recorded explicity for it to be a valid
apostolic decision.
YOu are hung up on the matter because you refuse to accept the power of
the Apostles to bind and to loose. When you accept that power, which
Jesus gave to the Apostles, then your problem with Sunday worship will
go away.
"Sacrifice or oblation you wish not, but ears open to obedience you
gave me"
--Ed
Edward Thorne
>
There is an lot of interesting material here, which I have snipped out,
because this is a long post. But I have left a lot in to preserve the
dialogue.
[snip]
Of course, the whole idea of changing the weekly worship from Saturday
to Sunday came about through a decision of the church, or a
ratification by the church of general practice.
Of course, Paul is cited in Acts as celebrating the breaking of the
bread on Sunday.
>When the defenders of first-day sacredness cannot find any proof from
the Bible
>that the Sabbath of the fourth commandment has been changed to Sunday
worship,
>they usually use the writings of these early fathers to prove their
contention.
There does not have to be any proof from the bible; the church did it
on its own authority of binding and loosing.
>
>A Catholic priest, Father Enright, chides Protestants who claim to
take "the
>Bible and the Bible only as the basis of their faith" in these words:
"My
>brethren, look about you upon the various wrangling sects and
denominations.
>Show me one that claims or possesses the power to make laws binding on
the
>conscience. There's but one on the face of the earth葉he Catholic
Church葉hat
>has the power to make laws binding upon the conscience, binding before
God,
>binding under pain of hell fire. Take for instance the day we
celebrate祐unday.
>What right have the Protestant churches to observe that day? None
whatever. You
>say it is to obey the commandment, 'Remember the Sabbath day to keep
it holy.'
>But Sunday is not the Sabbath according to the Bible and the record of
time.
>Every one knows that Sunday is the first day of the week, while
Saturday is the
>holy.' But the Catholic church says, 'No, keep the first day of the
week,' and
>the whole world bows in obedience." Taken from a speech delivered at
Harlan,
>Iowa, and reported in The Industrial American, December 19, 1889.
This is an interesting passage, and what it says is that all of
Protestantism, despite sola scriptura, celebrates the weekly worhip in
sunday.
>
>Leaving the Word of God, which always from Genesis through Revelation
authorizes
>the sanctification of the seventh day, opposers of God's holy Sabbath
turn to
>the so-called early fathers. Are they reliable? Can we trust them?
Paul warned
>by the Spirit that false teachers bringing in changes from the holy
faith would
>soon come. He wrote this word of caution: "For I know this, that after
my
>departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the
flock. Also
>of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw
away
>disciples after them." Acts 20:29,30.
Yes, but that comment by Paul does not invalidate anything that any
father of the church might have to say.
>
>Dr. Adam Clark, recognized scholar and commentator,
Recognized? By whom? I have never heard of him. Is he a father of the
church?
in his commentary on
>Proverbs 8 wrote: "We may safely state, that there is not a truth in
the most
>orthodox creed, that cannot be proven by their [early fathers]
authority; nor a
>heresy that has disgraced the Romish Church that may not challenge
them as it
>abettors. In points of doctrine, their authority is, with me, nothing.
The Word
>of God alone contains my creed."
Too many double negatives can obscure the meaining of the sentence.
Here it looks as if the good doctor were saying that the creed, e. g.,
the Nicene creed, *can* be proven by their authority.
The 2nd part of the quote above seems to reject all of the fathers of
church as abettors of heresy!
By so doing, the good [sic] doctor has eliminated the faith of the
early Christians. He has called the early Christians heretics, and is
attempting to wipe out the history of the church.
>
>Who are some of these early fathers who are quoted so frequently on
this
>question of changing the day of worship from Saturday to Sunday? They
are
>Ignatius, Barnabas, Irenaeus, Clement, Tertullian, and Augustine. Here
is
>something that most Protestants do not know, that the Roman Catholic
Church goes
>to these same writers, the early fathers, to prove doctrines which are
not in
>the Bible and which no other church practices or believes today except
the Roman
>Catholic Church.
Well, of course, we must add to that number the Eastern Orthodox
church, the Coptic church, the Nestorian church, the Jacobite church,
and the Armenian church. Or, perhaps in the poster's imagination they
don't exist or are unimportant entities.
>
>Let us take a few examples. Most defenders of first-day observance
will quote
>Ignatius, 101 AD, as favoring the first day instead of the seventh.
Of course, he was a bishop, the 2nd bishop of Antioch after Peter.
Oh, and he went to die at Rome as wheat to be ground between the teeth
of the lions. Do you see the Eucharist analogy?
In Cardinal
>Gibbon's book Faith of Our Fathers, page 297, he is trying to prove
that the
>priest turns the bread into God and that this bread should be bowed to
and
>worshiped as God. To prove this idolatry should be practiced today
Idolatry?
We have 4 citations in the bible where in Jesus said, this is my body
etc.
And then we have John 6. What better authority can we have than these
five?
he quotes
>Ignatius condemning some of his day, "because they confess not that
the
>Eucharist is the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ."
That is right! Good for Ignatius!
There is no dogma that the
>Roman Catholic Church holds today more strongly than that the wafer
which the
>priest pronounces some Latin words over is the actual Son of God.
Well, that is based on the words uttered by the same 'actual Son of
God.' After all, surprise of surprises, we follow scripture!
>
>Another writer who is often quoted in favor of early first day
observance is
>Barnabas.
Of course, the Barnabas is a pseudonym, it was not written by the
Barnabas in Acts. It almost made it into the canon of the NT, but the
church decided that it was not authentic.
Well, does Barnabas have something to say about the sunday observance?
You leave us in suspense.
>
>Justin Martyr is another "authority" that is greatly relied upon to
prove what
>the Bible is silent about. Cardinal Gibbons, in his book Faith of Our
Fathers,
>page 297, quotes him to prove that the bread is Jesus Christ. And I
quote: "The
>Eucharist is both the flesh and blood of the same incarnate Jesus."
>
>All these "authorities" prove what Paul meant when he said that after
his
>"departure" men would arise "speaking perverse things," and the fact
that these
>writings (supposed to have been done by these men) took place right
after the
>death of the apostles shows what Paul meant when he said, "the mystery
of
>iniquity doth already work." 2 Thessalonians 2:7.
Whoa! These writings prove nothing of the kind. I could say the same
about Luther, or Clark, or Schaff --to be quoted below.
>
>In seeking to prove prayers for the dead, Cardinal Gibbons quotes
Tertullian in
>these words: "The faithful wife will pray for the soul of her deceased
husband,
>particularly on the anniversary day of his falling asleep. And if she
fail to do
>so she has repudiated her husband as far as it lies in her." There is
nothing in
>the Bible about praying for the dead, in fact God says, "The dead know
not any
>thing," that the living cannot help them. But to prove his point,
Gibbons goes
>to Tertullian.
Well, praying for the dead is indeed in scripture. Consult Maccabees 2.
>
>Do I dare quote a paragraph from Clement of Alexandria, another of the
early
>fathers? "There is a certain bird called Phoenix; of this there is
never but one
>at a time; and that lives 500 years. And when the time of its
dissolution draws
>near, that it must die, it makes itself a nest of frankincense, and
myrrh, and
>other spices into which when its time is fulfilled it enters and dies.
But its
>flesh putrefying breeds a certain worm, which being nourished with the
juice of
>the dead bird brings forth feathers; and when it is grown to a perfect
state, it
>takes up the nest in which the bones of its parents lie, and carries
it from
>Arabia into Egypt. And flying in open day in the sight of all men,
lays it upon
>the altar of the sun, and so returns from whence it came." Chapter
12:2-4.
Are you sure you have the right Clement? After all, Clement of Rome
was the 1st Christian to use this analogy.
>
>Think about being compelled to read from such a source to prove Sunday
had
>become the Sabbath!
Clement of Rome, by the way, was the 3rd bishop of Rome, after Peter.
It may be the Peter had ordained him priest.
>
>May I close this portion of our book with a quotation from Philip
Schaff,
>eminent church historian?
Well, he may be eminent in some circles but not in mine. :-)
> He quotes a "distinguished writer"
Who?
as declaring that
>when we move from the inspired writings of the fathers, it is like
passing, "'by
>a single step,'" from the verdant confines of "'an Eastern city in the
desert'"
>out "'into a barren waste.'"
Which fathers are you talking about? Does Schaff really support your
contention that the fathers are gross heretics?
And it is into this "barren waste" the Sabbath
>objector would lead us for proof of Sundaykeeping!
Dear Friend, I admire you effort, but, you have proven nothing. All
you have done is to string some texts together but they do nothing to
prove your point that the early church fell into heresy and that sunday
observance is an example.
Edward Thorne
<vamp...@nospam.prodigy.net> writes:
>
>In article <6o1au3$j...@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> ,
>eth...@ix.netcom.com(Edward Thorne) wrote:
>
>>will build my church."
>
>Actually, it's more like, "you are Petro and on this petra, I will
build my
>church."
Well, Jesus did speak in Aramaic. So, the word is kepha.
That is why Paul calls him Cephas.
Edward Thorne
Ministries" <ag...@bellsouth.net> writes:
>
>Hi Dianne
[snip]
History about who
>and when the Sabbath was changed is clear. The Romans changed it after
>sacking Israel and destroying the Temple.
Well, that is flatly contradicted by Acts, wherein Paul is described as
breaking bread on the sunday.
> Catholisim wasn't around yet
Sure it was, beginning on 333 AD, Pentecost sunday.
> so
>they cant claim the Pope did it. The first century church,peter , paul
and
>all others still held the Sabbath as a command from God and taught
about the
>Messiah and His Ressurection in the Temple before it was destroyed and
in
>the streets and homes after it was destroyed.
Well, of course, membership in the church was becoming largely gentile
and so there was little need to worhip on saturday. So, the apostles
and others continued their practice of celebrating the breaking of the
bread on sunday.
Rome was trying to wipe out
>any thing that was a resemblence of the Jewish Faith,as the early
church
>was, and after 70 A.D. the believers in this new sect of judaism went
>underground, and continued to hold the Sabbath ,until Catholism
rearred its
>ugly head around the fourth century.
Actually, even Pliny the YOunger is witness to the Christians gathering
on the 1st day of the week.
> This is History
Well, really, it is more like fiction.
> ,but some baby believers in this group will ignore
>this fact, and cling on to some stupid tradition about Y'shua rising
on that
>day. No place in Scripture can this be found,
"Sacrifice or oblation you wish not, but ears open to obedience you
gave me"
--Ed
Edward Thorne
<dianne....@shaw.wave.ca> writes:
>
>The Bible tells us what day the Sabbath is. First of all, it says
that we are
>to keep the 7th day holy. Then it tells us that Jesus was resurrected
on the
>first day of the week. We all understand that he was resurrected on
Sunday.
The
>Catholics say that Sunday is the first day of the week and the eight
day. No
>matter what they say, it is perfectly clear that Saturday is the
seventh day
>and the Sabbath.
>
Jesus gave the Apostles the power to bind and to loose. So, when they
changed the weekly observance from saturday to sunday, in honor of his
resurrection, that was well within their authority.
When people challenge that decision, they are challenging Jesus,
because whatever the Apostles did was the same as if it were Jesus
doing it. Such persons, if they will not listen even to the ch urch,
should be to us as the heathen and the publican.
"Sacrifice or oblation you wish not, but ears open to obedience you
gave me"
--Ed
jezreel
says...
> In article <35A25F1D...@aloha.net>,
> mik...@aloha.net wrote:
> > According to Pope John Paul II in his new apostolic letter Dies Domini:
> >
> > the day "blessed" by God and "made holy" by him, set apart from the
> > other days to be, among all of them, "the Lord's Day".
> >
> > where in Scripture:
> >
> > - God blessed Sunday?
> > - God made Sunday holy?
> > - God set apart Sunday as "the Lord's Day?"
> >
> > You will not find Sunday, the first day, in the following verses,
> > you will only find the seventh-day Sabbath, which is Saturday.
> >
> > Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it:
> > because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
> >
> > Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
> > Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God:
> > thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger
> > that is within thy gates:
> > Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea,
> > and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD
> > blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
> >
> > So just where is the "thus saith the Lord" for Sunday holiness?
> >
> to the need to observe the day attributed in his church to give praise and
> thanksgiving. So what if it is a Catholic borrowing and changing of the
> Jewish Sabbath, so what if it is the 7th or the 1st day of the week, so what
> if it was on a Wednesday back in the 1500's before the 10 day jump in the
> calendar. The facts don't change the intent: whatever your faith stance, if
> you believe in God, make time for Him in your life. JP II is merely trying to
> bolster his own rationale based on the teachings and tradition of his
> religion. What is wrong with that. That is exactly what everyone in this
> thread appears to be doing. Get over it. Really, you all sound like the
> Pharisees and the Sadducees all over again. This is not thelogical discourse.
> This is name calling. Unity comes through understanding the positions of
>
> roman catholics worship mary=semarimus
> the black madonna
> if you need to be told that roman catholisism is pagan infected apostasy
> then your dead in your sin
> read alexander hyslop
> jez7538680
Dianne Birtley
day being changed. Well, I'll tell ya.
The Bible says so many times that man will uphold as doctrine the
traditions of men rather than the teachings of God. It says that this is a
bad thing. So, to then say that the day had to change because now gentiles
were included is an odd statement. In the garden of eden there were no
jews, and no gentiles. There was only man. The seventh day was made holy
by God for everyone. Jesus says that the sabbath was made for man. God
says that we must enter His rest as He did. This to me is very clear. As
Christians, we must realize that the Bible is not a fictional incredible
story. So when it says that things are going to be so bad that the whole
world will be following false teachings, the teachings that have their root
in Babylon, that means we must be careful what we take for doctrine. We
must varify it against the word of God, not man.
The message for our day is to come out of her. Do not follow the false
teachings.
The Bible says that the everlasting gospel has to be preached now. That
gospel is the life and death message. It must be preached to every nation,
tongue and people. Worship Him who made heaven and Earth the sea and the
springs of water. Folks, word for word of this compiled part of the fourth
commandment to keep holy the sabbath. The Sabbath is a reminder of who our
creator is. Then immediately following these statements is the warning not
to follow the beast, and not to receive its mark. Folks, you automatically
get the mark of the beast by following false teachings, and by doing
things contrary to God.
When you see people upholding such major practices as worshiping idols,
upholding Sunday as the day to keep holy as opposed to the holy seventh
day, and justifying it through human reasoning without chrystal clear Bible
teaching, you know that this is Bible prophecy happening. Thing is, we
have heard it so much that we are immune to the message.
So, I urge everyone to take this thing seriously, I am not saying not to
worship on Sunday. Worship whenever you wish. But there is only one
seventh day, the same is the Sabbath day, this is the day that is very
clearly outlined in the Bible as a holy day, and one that we must keep
holy, and one that we must rest from our work.
Dianne Birtley
the language Jesus would have used would not have been greek. I appreciate your
input on that. Thank you.
Christopher Beattie
> Edward Thorne wrote:
> > Jesus gave the Apostles the power to bind and to loose. So, when they
> > changed the weekly observance from saturday to sunday, in honor of his
> > resurrection, that was well within their authority.
> the day "blessed" by God and "made holy" by him, set apart from the
> other days to be, among all of them, "the Lord's Day".
> and set apart the Sunday, but rather it was the Catholic Church doing so,
> and binding God and His people to that change?
> Note this verse in Daniel, that speaks of the little horn power:
> Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High,
> and shall wear out the saints of the most High,
> and think to change times and laws [of the most high]: ...
Collossians 2:16 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions
of food and drink or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a
sabbath. 17 These are only a shadow of what is to come; but the
substance belongs to Christ.
After all didn't Paul insist that we do away with circumcision?
Or maby even Christ himself for that matter:
Matthew 12:8 For the Son of man is lord of the sabbath.
Mark 2:27 And he said to them, "The sabbath was made for man, not man
for the sabbath; 28 so the Son of man is lord even of the sabbath."
Honest question: Have you actually read Dies Domini? All of it?
I guess it's like Paul's letters, hard to understand, which the
ignorant twist to their own destruction, as they do the scriptures!
--
| _______ |Christopher Beattie | 801 Eisenhower Dr|
| /__ __\ Peace |Tantalus Inc. | Key West, FL 33040|
| / \ and |Development Div. |Phone: (305) 293-8100|
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| |#include <disclamer.standard.hpp> |
Shekinah Street Ministries
--
http://www.sstm.org
Shekinah Street Ministries
taking Y'shua's Word and
Salvation to the Streets
Edward Thorne wrote in message <6oh5rf$6...@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>...
>In <A9pq1.202$yt4.1...@news2.mia.bellsouth.net> "Shekinah Street
>Ministries" <ag...@bellsouth.net> writes:
>>
>>Hi Dianne
>
>[snip]
>
> History about who
>>and when the Sabbath was changed is clear. The Romans changed it after
>>sacking Israel and destroying the Temple.
>
>
>Well, that is flatly contradicted by Acts, wherein Paul is described as
>breaking bread on the sunday.
Shekinah-So Paul ate on Sunday,so,how does that reflect on the Sabbath
>> Catholisim wasn't around yet
>
>Sure it was, beginning on 333 AD, Pentecost sunday.
Shekinah-No 70 A.D is 300 years before your first Pope,Constatine
>> so
>>they cant claim the Pope did it. The first century church,peter , paul
>and
>>all others still held the Sabbath as a command from God and taught
>about the
>>Messiah and His Ressurection in the Temple before it was destroyed and
>in
>>the streets and homes after it was destroyed.
>
>Well, of course, membership in the church was becoming largely gentile
>and so there was little need to worhip on saturday. So, the apostles
>and others continued their practice of celebrating the breaking of the
>bread on sunday.
Shekinah-No ,History says the Roman Gov't changed the day of worship
> Rome was trying to wipe out
>>any thing that was a resemblence of the Jewish Faith,as the early
>church
>>was, and after 70 A.D. the believers in this new sect of judaism went
>>underground, and continued to hold the Sabbath ,until Catholism
>rearred its
>>ugly head around the fourth century.
>
>Actually, even Pliny the YOunger is witness to the Christians gathering
>on the 1st day of the week.
>
>> This is History
>
>Well, really, it is more like fiction.
>
>> ,but some baby believers in this group will ignore
>>this fact, and cling on to some stupid tradition about Y'shua rising
>on that
>>day. No place in Scripture can this be found,
>
Dianne Birtley
actually a Saturday night breakingv of bread. The Bible tells us why the
got together after sunset after the Sabbath. Paul was leaving town on a
long journey. There is only one midnight on sunday and that is about five
hours after sunset after the Sabbath. I am sure that there are many folks
that have evening mass or evening service today. However this isn't even
that much of a worship. THey got together because he was leaving town, it
is very natural for you to get together with your close friends before a
long trip, especially in Paul' case, when he was not sure if he would see
them again.
>
> Pagan worship was around since Babylon. There was a problem in Jesus
> time where even the Jews were falling away from Bible teachings.
> Although the Bible says that the apostles and Jesus worshipped on the
> Sabbath in several places, it is obvious that the antichrist spirit was
> working even in his day. This antichrist spirit was the continual
> adoption of pagan practices against God's word. The Catholic Church
> eventually set about persecuting Sabbath worshipping Christians during
> the dark ages. The instituted the Sunday laws. This is why the world
> still blindly follows the beast or "wonders after the beast". The Bible
> says in its last prophetic message to the world, COME OUT OF HER
> (babylon), Do not worship the beast, do not receive its mark, do not
> worship the image of the beast.
Sure, everyone is saying that the Catholic Church is the beast. I agree.
But the Bible says that we must not worship the image of the beast. Yep,
there are many churches that claims to have protested against the Church,
but are simply images of the original. The too break the same commandments
as the original beast. The Bible says, do not worship her, or her image.
>
>
> > Catholisim wasn't around yet
>
> Sure it was, beginning on 333 AD, Pentecost sunday.
> >the streets and homes after it was destroyed.
>
> Study your history. Constantine changed the day to Sunday, because he
> had a problem with the Christians and the pagans. So he instituted the
> Sunday change. Now, I was unaware that Constantine was ordained by God to
> bind or loose. This was political, and not of God. I believe that If
> God blessed the seventh day, If Jesus kept the same day holy, if during
> the lives of the apostles they kept the sabbath holy and taught others to
> do the same, If the apostles even taught the gentiles on the Sabbath and
> they ask them to preach more on this the following sabbath, and the bible
> records hundreds of sabbaths kept by the apostles and Jesus, and the
> Bible says taht the whole world would be wonderins after the beast, I
> would take a good look at what the Bible says and stop taking the
> teachings of man and turn your eyes upon Jesus. Hey! here is a sure way
> to know that you've got it right. Live your life as closely to the way
> Jesus lived and worshipped. OK you may not want to dedicate your life to
> not working, but teach people every day, on the job or when you are
> travelling. Worship as he did, and as he communicated constantly with
> the Father, so we must communicate constantly with him.
I figure it this way, If we are to live as Jesus, and he worshipped on the
Sabbath as an example, and the Bible completely supports this practice and
God himself said that he made holy this seventh day, then you cannot go
wrong.
>