New Member
jared
New Member wrote:
| I've been a sole opponent against tithing and a proponent for spirit led giving in my church for the last 2 years. After winning the battle at first, it appears I have recently lost the war. The leaders of the church agreed with me at first, but now the same leaders are supporting the imposition of tithing again. I believe your group would be interested in reading the full story including an article and letters on tithing I wrote to the church. I just posted them in my blog: http://godhelpuswedonthaveaclue.blogspot.com/, post: http://godhelpuswedonthaveaclue.blogspot.com/2011/10/article-and-letters-i-wrote-to-my.html |
vi...@lavello.net
If a church 'imposed' anything can't you "vote with your feet?"
I don't know if not tithing these last 2 years has led to 'spirit led' giving or 'self'willed" giving.
I would be careful with the advice given here.
From: "jared" <jbb...@gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2011 8:42 PM
To: ti...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [Tithing & Stewardship Group] New Member
We have a new member that has joined
New Member wrote:
| I've been a sole opponent against tithing and a proponent for spirit led giving in my church for the last 2 years. After winning the battle at first, it appears I have recently lost the war. The leaders of the church agreed with me at first, but now the same leaders are supporting the imposition of tithing again. I believe your group would be interested in reading the full story including an article and letters on tithing I wrote to the church. I just posted them in my blog: http://godhelpuswedonthaveaclue.blogspot.com/, post: http://godhelpuswedonthaveaclue.blogspot.com/2011/10/article-and-letters-i-wrote-to-my.html |
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Douglas Wright
greed (to give in order to get or to give only 10% when more could be given), then it is wrong--very wrong--especially for the ones doing the receiving. If a person does not have the Holy Spirit in them to lead them in their giving, then their gifts are for naught. God does not need the money and he can not be bought. Going to church, reading the bible, and tithing will not save you. If your not willing to give up self and let God lead, your dead in your sins. The life you think you have is no life at all. God doesn't want our money; he wants us--our heart,mind, body, and soul.
jade...@earthlink.net
Michael Reynolds
Sent from my iPhone
Michael Reynolds
Sent from my iPhone
David James
I am so disappointed that there is too much concern about tithing among Christians than a passion for lost and backslidden souls. The commands and mission of Jesus Christ are directed towards the value (love) of these souls to Him, that is why he has called and anointed all of us as ministering priests to saturate the world with the Gospel of the Kingdom. It does not cost a dime to share the gospel to our neighbors, friends, relatives, workmates, school mates, and even strangers. He was crucified so that we all could have salvation, eternal life, deliverance, healing, joy, peace, etc, at no cost to us. He has already paid the price and has never demanded a tithe for none of these much needed-in-demand and desired things. They are priceless. Let us all do what we can with what we have. He is coming very soon. Let us start working and stop fighting with each other. This is one of the distractions of the devil and he is just loving it. Souls are dying every day without Christ while we fight over dirty money. Obedience (giving of yourself) to Christ is the ultimate sacrificial giving.
Deuteronomy 18: 18-20 18 I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him. 19 And it shall be that whoever will not hear My words, which He speaks in My name, I will require it of him. 20 But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in My name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.’
Matthew 17: 3-5 3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him. 4 Then Peter answered and said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You wish, let us make here three tabernacles: one for You, one for Moses, and one for Elijah.”5 While he was still speaking, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them; and suddenly a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Hear Him!”
Luke 6:46 “But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say? Joel 2:28-29 28“ And it shall come to pass afterward That I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your old men shall dream dreams, Your young men shall see visions. 29 And also on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days.
1 Peter 2:9
Matthew 28:18-20
18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.
|
Douglas Wright
Doug
I hope you will forgive me for I have misunderstood your point of view
in your reply and I have falsely accused you. After sending my reply,
I read your reply again and realized that I erred in my
interpretation. I see now that you were not coming down on people,
such as are members in this group, who are trying to enlighten the
church about how God really wants us to give. Instead you were saying
that people who tithe should stop being so concerned about tithing and
should start doing the real work of the Lord, spreading the Gospel.
I've got now. Sorry! I broke out in a cold sweat when I realized my
mistake. I hope you have a sense of humor.
Douglas
> > giving.*
>
> > *Deuteronomy 18: 18-20*
>
> > *18 I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren,
> > command Him. 19 And it shall be that whoever will not hear My words, which
> > He speaks in My name, I will require it of him. 20 But the prophet who
> > presumes to speak a word in My name, which I have not commanded him to
>
> > ***** ***
>
> > *Matthew 17: 3-5*
>
> > *3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him. 4 Then
> > You wish, let us make here three tabernacles: one for You, one for Moses,
> > and one for Elijah.”5 While he was still speaking, behold, a bright cloud
> > overshadowed them; and suddenly a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This
>
> > *** ***
>
> > *Luke 6:46*
>
> > *“But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say?*
>
> > *Joel 2:28-29*
>
> > *28“ And it shall come to pass afterward That I will pour out My Spirit on
> > dream dreams, Your young men shall see visions. 29 And also on My
> > menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days.
>
> > **
>
> > ***1 Peter 2:9
> > special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out
>
> > ****** **
>
> > *Matthew 28:18-20 *
>
> > *18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been
> > all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and
> > of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have
> > commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”
>
> > **
>
> > **
>
> > **
>
> > --- On *Mon, 10/24/11, Michael Reynolds <miketwi...@yahoo.com>* wrote:
>
> read more »
David James
Please do not misunderstand me. I was making a general statement with no reflection on this group. As a matter of fact we need this kind on dialouge, and thank God for the internet. We need to be aware of what's going around us. It is said that silence is consent. Only Jesus the authority to judge and to clean up His Father's house. The devil has already been defeated. We just need to walk in faith and victory. When we stand before Him on judgment day, we will only be able to speak for ourselves based on what he has commanded us to do as individuals and not what others have or have not done.
Romans 14:12
John 12:48 He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him—the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.
John 12:48 He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him—the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.
John 12:47
And if any man hears my words, and believes not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. John 21:20-23 20 Then Peter, turning around, saw the disciple whom Jesus loved following, who also had leaned on His breast at the supper, and said, “Lord, who is the one who betrays You?” 21 Peter, seeing him, said to Jesus, “But Lord, what about this man?” 22 Jesus said to him, “If I will that he remain till I come, what is that to you? You follow Me.” |
David James
Well taken, I had prayed about it. Please do not hesitate to respond to anything that is not clear to you. It motivates me to pray and to find better words to express my concerns. We sharpen each other. That's why group discussions are very much needed today. I also believe that is why Jesus selected and left a group of men who had to have a common consensus to do His will under the leadership of the Holy Spirit. He did not select a human leader to lead His people; He is the only leader.
Feel free to visit my website http://www.riverolife.com
--- On Thu, 10/27/11, Doug <ghuw...@gmail.com> wrote: |
|
vi...@lavello.net
However that Law; Paul tells us is our "schoolmaster (tutor) to lead us to Christ" (Gal 3:24, Rom 7:7)
The principles in the Law still apply; say the Ten Commandments for instance.
I cannot willingly give approval nor consent to commit nor desire to commit any trespass against God's law without commiting sin.
If I do, I damage my conscience and sever my intimacy with God by transgressing; going over the line.
The fruit of my behavior is depraved character.
The fruit is what Jesus told us to inspect.
He said to listen to the pharisees but do not behave like them.
Prior to considering the idea of a tithe; I was a "hillarious" giver.
I heard a teaching which illustrated the "tithe principle" throuought scripture; I became convicted and since my only form of income is money; I began to tithe 10 percent of my income from the gross.
What was the fruit of this change? 1) I was no longer a hilarious giver. 2) I was more consistent and gave more over the long term. 3) I was more frugal.
The law was a tutor which led me to a more consistent heavenward investment of my money.
I came across the tithe group; argued for a while and saw that indeed I was free to give freely. I saw that God honored the widows mite more than the tithe. I saw that Zaccheus gave 50%, of the rich man Jesus demanded 100% and of Anninias and Sapphira their hypocritical gift cost them their life. I stopped "tithing" and began giving on my own recognasance.
What was the fruit of this change?
1) I gave where I wanted, How much I wanted, and Whenever I wanted.
2) Over the long term I gave less, but in short bursts sometimes more.
3) I became less frugal; and have accumulated 10,000 dollars of credit card debt.
Lawlessness has led me away from Christ who through Paul teaches "do not owe anyone anything"
So now I stand in the barren desert of uncertainty.
Despising the law has degraded me; complying to the law was a benefit to my community of believers.
So; I have vowed to get out of debt and at some point, I may go back to a regular tithe; if the Spirit leads...
Since the Spirit is the author of the Law; perhaps Lawlessness leads to barenness of Spirit.
Double minded?
Or fruit inspector?
From: "Michael Reynolds" <miket...@yahoo.com>
Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 11:22 AM
To: "ti...@googlegroups.com" <ti...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [Tithing & Stewardship Group] New Member
Sent from my iPhone
How does a church "impose" tithing - sounds so draconian and communist?
If a church 'imposed' anything can't you "vote with your feet?"
I don't know if not tithing these last 2 years has led to 'spirit led' giving or 'self'willed" giving.
I would be careful with the advice given here.
From: "jared" <jbb...@gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2011 8:42 PM
To: ti...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [Tithing & Stewardship Group] New Member
We have a new member that has joined
New Member wrote:
I've been a sole opponent against tithing and a proponent for spirit led giving in my church for the last 2 years. After winning the battle at first, it appears I have recently lost the war. The leaders of the church agreed with me at first, but now the same leaders are supporting the imposition of tithing again. I believe your group would be interested in reading the full story including an article and letters on tithing I wrote to the church. I just posted them in my blog: http://godhelpuswedonthaveaclue.blogspot.com/, post: http://godhelpuswedonthaveaclue.blogspot.com/2011/10/article-and-letters-i-wrote-to-my.html
--
For more options, visit this group at
http://groups.google.com/group/tithe?hl=en
visit the blog
http://churchtithesandofferings.com/blog/
--
For more options, visit this group at
http://groups.google.com/group/tithe?hl=en
visit the blog
http://churchtithesandofferings.com/blog/
--
Tithing & Stewardship group.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
Jared Bartholomew
David James
I believe that the 10 Commandments were written because these violations existed among God's people and He showed His disapproval by instituting these laws. Our speeding laws were not written and posted until speeding became a serious issue on our roads. If people did not speed, those traffic laws against speeding would not have been written. Therefore, the 10 Commandments let us know the kinds of actions practiced by Israelites that God does not approve of.
Today, Jesus is simply saying that if we love God and our neighbor, we will not steal from them, not kill them, not covet the belongings, if children love their parents, they will obey them, etc. What you desire for yourself, you desire for your neighbor. In Luke 10: 25-37, Jesus let us know that our neighbor is also someone of a different culture. In the Old Testament, God called them "strangers" Luke 10:26-28 26 He said to him, “What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?”
Romans 13:9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”
Galatians 5:14 James 2:8
Leviticus 19:34
Exodus 22:21 |
David James
I believe that some time in the near future, the congregants will rebel against the establishment churches because there in a great disparity between the congregants and the pastors/CEOs (Ezekiel 34). Since when is a servant (pastor) a multi-millionaire? That seems ironic. There are people in the congregation who faithfully paid their tithes and are now unemployed. Many of them are struggling to keep their electricity on and are in foreclosure while their pastors in believing God for a 3rd jet to add to his fleet or bragging about his Olympic-sized swimming pool; or hi entire family drives Mercedes, Bentleys or BMWs. I would not be surprised if an "Occupy Wall street" type revolution develops among the saints. people are getting wiser. What do you think? |
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|
Douglas Wright
Michael Reynolds
David James
Stay encouraged Bro. Douglas. Jesus said that He will never leave us nor forsake us (Hebrews 13: 5). All through church history, reformation started by one person. Almost every denomination or religion was started by one person who was inspired. At the end of three years of crusades, Mohammed of Islam had 3 followers. The prophets of old were loners; nobody liked them. Jesus was so hated in His own city that He could not even perform many miracles in that city. Just stay close to God and obey what he tells you. I have also been isolated. In the final analysis, you would have to answer to Him and not any human. They all have to answer to Him and not to their church leaders. The church leaders will have to an account for themselves to Him.
Romans 14:12
2 Thessalonians 2:2-4 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. That spirit is in the church today especially among some church leaders.
Mark 6:4-5 4 But Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor except in his own country, among his own relatives, and in his own house.” 5 Now He could do no mighty work there, except that He laid His hands on a few sick people and healed them.
Matthew 10:36 (read the whole chapter)
Matthew 7:13-14 13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it. Read also Matthew chapter 13
Romans 8: 31-38 31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? 33 Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 As it is written: “For Your sake we are killed all day long; We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.” 37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. |
|
David James
| Is there a New Testament role for pastors? (Surf the internet for "The Shepherding Movement") There are over 100 translations and versions of the Bible of which according to the United Nations 1998 Census on Religions, there were at that time, 23,000 Christian denominations and they all somewhat differ. It is therefore important to research as many of them as you could to see which ones line up with the actual teachings and actions of Jesus Christ. The word “Christian” means “follower of Jesus Christ”. Jesus is the only shepherd of the sheep and He will lead us. He never assigned anyone else to a position of shepherd or under-shepherd. God established this fact. He left twelve apostles along with many other disciples to work together to continue His mission on this earth. He also notified His disciples that He will send the Holy Spirit to lead and guide us after His departure (John 14; 16:5-15). We must be able to recognize His voice. The reason Jesus expressed concern about Peter’s love for Him is because “if we love Jesus, we will faithfully obey His specific commands” (John 14:15). Jesus our leader commanded Peter three times in succession to feed His sheep, not to lead (control) them. The original use of the word ‘pastor’ was not found in the Hebrew Bible. The word shepherd was used. The word pastor comes from the Greek word "poimen" meaning shepherd or from pasco, pastum, which means to feed. The Hebrew word for shepherd is רעה (raʿah) which was used 173 times and can describe the feeding of sheep as in Genesis 29:7 or the spiritual feeding of human beings as in Jeremiah 3:15, "And I will give you shepherds according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding" . Note: The original script did not contain the word pastor, but shepherd. Many bible translations do not include the use of the word pastor, but shepherd. In the Old Testament, the leaders of God’s flock were called shepherds. In Deuteronomy 18: 15-19, God announced the coming of Jesus as the only credible spokesman for Him. In Ezekiel 34: 23, God declared that He was going to separate the shepherds of that time, from His sheep and send them one shepherd, His son Jesus Christ. In Matthew 17: 4-6, God affirmed that Jesus was the only one that He has chosen to speak to His flock. And in Matthew 23:8-10 and John 10: 1-16, Jesus established Himself as the only Shepherd of God’s flock. God ended the period of the shepherds/pastors when Jesus came. In Ephesians 4:11, the word pastor may have been added because some translations do not mention it, and if God said that Jesus is the only shepherd, how can God make some of his people shepherds. God will not contradict Himself. A shepherd feeds, and to spiritually feed is to teach. Therefore, in some translations, to use the word pastor/shepherd as in Ephesians 4:11(and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers), would be repetitive. This finding takes us back to the first mention of the spiritual gifts in 1 Corinthians 12:27-31 in which the name pastor was not mentioned. In my research I also noticed that the titles “bishop” and “deacon” were not included in some translations. They have used "elder", “overseer” and “servant” . I believe that is why some ministries are careful to label their “pastor” as the leading elder, or everyone in the church body as brother or sister “x”. (Read Matthew 23:8-12)
Matthew 23:8-12 8 But you, do not be called ‘Rabbi’; for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren. 9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. 10 And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ. 11 But he who is greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 And whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted. |
Michael Reynolds
Sent from my iPhone
Karam Tascoe
Michael Reynolds
Sent from my iPhone
David James
Purpose of Tithing and Giving The real essence of tithing in the Old Testament and giving in the New Testament was not to receive blessings or appease God. The tithe or giving supported the priests or ministers because they could not own any real-estate or secular employment, and lived on the establishment’s campus. The tithe or giving also supported the widows and orphans, others that were in need, and the upkeep of the campus. We give because we recognize the needs and respond accordingly as God has blessed us. He will then reward us for our kindness of heart. The campus structures were built by the members of the congregation who had the skills to fulfill the different tasks needed to complete the structure. People donated the materials. The structures were debt-free. I do not think that God would bless His people with a building (especially a church), vehicle, etc, along with the burden of struggling to pay exorbitant interest rates; or having His people that He loves so much, placed under immense pressure paying more than three times the value of the item, knowing that if a payment or two is missed, that loan would go into default with the possibility of loosing everything that was put into it. God has promised us freedom and abundant life, and not bondage. Here are a few scriptures to best express my concerns.
Proverbs 22:7
Exodus 35: 1-35 30 And Moses said to the children of Israel, “See, the LORD has called by name Bezalel the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah; 31 and He has filled him with the Spirit of God, in wisdom and understanding, in knowledge and all manner of workmanship, 32 to design artistic works, to work in gold and silver and bronze, 33 in cutting jewels for setting, in carving wood, and to work in all manner of artistic workmanship. 34 “And He has put in his heart the ability to teach, in him and Aholiab the son of Ahisamach, of the tribe of Dan. 35 He has filled them with skill to do all manner of work of the engraver and the designer and the tapestry maker, in blue, purple, and scarlet thread, and fine linen, and of the weaver—those who do every work and those who design artistic works.
Haggai 1:1-15 7 Thus says the LORD of hosts: “Consider your ways! 8 Go up to the mountains and bring wood and build the temple, that I may take pleasure in it and be glorified,” says the LORD.
Deuteronomy 28:12-14 12 The LORD will open to you His good treasure, the heavens, to give the rain to your land in its season, and to bless all the work of your hand. You shall lend to many nations, but you shall not borrow. 13 And the LORD will make you the head and not the tail; you shall be above only, and not be beneath, if you heed the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you today, and are careful to observe them. 14 So you shall not turn aside from any of the words which I command you this day, to the right or the left, to go after other gods to serve them.
Deuteronomy 14: 27 You shall not forsake the Levite who is within your gates, for he has no part nor inheritance with you.
Ezekiel 34 1 And the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 2 “Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy and say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD to the shepherds: “Woe to the shepherds of Israel who feed themselves! Should not the shepherds feed the flocks? 3 You eat the fat and clothe yourselves with the wool; you slaughter the fatlings, but you do not feed the flock. 4 The weak you have not strengthened, nor have you healed those who were sick, nor bound up the broken, nor brought back what was driven away, nor sought what was lost; but with force and cruelty you have ruled them.
Malachi 3:10
Acts 4: 31-37 31 And when they had prayed, the place where they were assembled together was shaken; and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and they spoke the word of God with boldness.32 Now the multitude of those who believed were of one heart and one soul; neither did anyone say that any of the things he possessed was his own, but they had all things in common. 33 And with great power the apostles gave witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And great grace was upon them all. 34 Nor was there anyone among them who lacked; for all who were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the proceeds of the things that were sold, 35 and laid them at the apostles’ feet; and they distributed to each as anyone had need. 36 And Joses, who was also named Barnabas by the apostles (which is translated Son of Encouragement), a Levite of the country of Cyprus, 37 having land, sold it, and brought the money and laid it at the apostles’ feet.
James 1:27 27 Pure and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their trouble, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world.
Luke 6:34-36 34 And if you lend to those from whom you hope to receive back, what credit is that to you? For even sinners lend to sinners to receive as much back. 35 But love your enemies, do good, and lend, hoping for nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High. For He is kind to the unthankful and evil. 36 Therefore be merciful, just as your Father also is merciful.
Luke 6:38
2 Corinthians 9:5-7 5 Therefore I thought it necessary to exhort the brethren to go to you ahead of time, and prepare your generous gift beforehand, which you had previously promised, that it may be ready as a matter of generosity and not as a grudging obligation. 6 But this I say: He who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully. 7 So let each one give as he purposes in his heart, not grudgingly or of necessity; for God loves a cheerful giver. |