Problems with Tise and Vista x64.

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Christopher Bell

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Mar 18, 2009, 1:37:21 PM3/18/09
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Has anyone had trouble getting Tise to work on a Windows Vista x64 system?  I just bought a new laptop with Vista x64 and when I installed Tise and tried using it, nothing comes up when I type, not even regular letters.  In fact, it acts like it's no longer even registering the keyboard, as the cursor just doesn't react to any input until I toggle Tise off.  I've tried running Tise as an administrator and that has no affect.  It ran fine on my last Vista system, which was x32, I believe.  Any suggestions?

Thanks,

Christopher Bell
cp...@virginia.edu
Religious Studies Department - Tibetan Studies
University of Virginia

Christopher Fynn

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Mar 18, 2009, 1:43:51 PM3/18/09
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The dll that hooks the keyboard input probably needs re-compiling for
x64 systems.



2009/3/18 Christopher Bell <cp...@virginia.edu>:

Christopher Bell

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Mar 18, 2009, 1:47:46 PM3/18/09
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That's what Grigory said.  Any chance that that's going to happen soon?  How hard is it to do that?  Could I do that on my x64 system if I had the right software and compiler?

Chris

Christopher Fynn

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Mar 18, 2009, 1:51:10 PM3/18/09
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Probably, but you'd need the source code.


2009/3/18 Christopher Bell <cp...@virginia.edu>:

Grigory Mokhin

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Mar 18, 2009, 7:16:09 PM3/18/09
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It is possible that this 32-bit DLL is not loaded properly on a 64-bit
system. Anyway, I'd appreciate any other reports confirming that the
problem is related with 64-bit system, and not with Vista permissions
(for example, the permissions related with executing the code in
non-standard directories or accessing the registry). I don't have a
64-bit Vista machine at the moment to test it by myself.

Regards,
Gregory

Grigory Mokhin

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Mar 18, 2009, 7:17:38 PM3/18/09
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...and sorry, for a number of reasons I'm not ready yet to open the source code.

Christopher Fynn

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Mar 19, 2009, 12:32:01 AM3/19/09
to tise-...@googlegroups.com, mok...@gmail.com
Hi Gregory

I don't have 64-bit Vista machine either ~ but I know that even the
fairly simple keyboard DLL's created with MSKLC need re-compiling for
64-bit systems - so I suspect anything that hooks the keyboard input
will need re-compiling for 64-bit Vista.

- Chris

2009/3/19 Grigory Mokhin <mok...@gmail.com>:

Christopher Bell

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Mar 23, 2009, 1:42:20 PM3/23/09
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I understand the desire not to make the Tise code open-source.  Do you have any other suggestions, though?  Can you get access to a x64 system to recompile it?  I tried installing Wylie Word and that didn't work either.  I'm getting desperate here; I need to be able to type Tibetan.

Chris

yunxu sun

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Mar 23, 2009, 2:05:43 PM3/23/09
to tise-...@googlegroups.com
you maybe use the tibetan input method provided by microsoft.
--
Sun Yunxu
Department of Electronic and Information Engineering
Harbin Institute of Technology, Shenzhen Graduate school
Shenzhen
Guangdong, China

Grigory Mokhin

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Mar 23, 2009, 9:55:41 PM3/23/09
to tise-...@googlegroups.com
The best solution would be to port Tise to .NET platform. That way it
would be platform-independent and will work without need to recompile
it on any Windows platform. A year ago I made a kind of port of the
program to .NET, implementing some basic functions of Tise in C#. The
good news is that it worked fine. However, I didn't have enough free
time or enough motivation to complete it. You see, the activity of
this group is quite low, and that either means that most people are
perfectly happy with Tise how it is now or (much more likely) that
there is not enough interest to this program among the Tibetan-typing
community.

Regards,
Grigory

Fabrizio Romano

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May 4, 2009, 6:19:19 AM5/4/09
to Tise Development
Hi,
I am new here.
I've been using Tise with word 2007 and openoffice 3 on vista sp1
(home premium, business, enterprise) and works very well, but only on
32 bit machines. I have bought a 64 bit laptop and on that one Tise
doesn't work.
It's a real pity, because it would really be great if I could write
tibetan when I'm at the center. I could check pechas with my tibetan
teacher or my Lama.
Would it be so long or so difficult to recompile the program for 64
bit processors?
Can I help you in any way?
If I could, I sure would be very happy to help, so if you're
interested just let me know ok?

Best regards,
Fabrizio


On Mar 24, 3:55 am, Grigory Mokhin <mok...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The best solution would be to port Tise to .NET platform. That way it
> would be platform-independent and will work without need to recompile
> it on any Windows platform. A year ago I made a kind of port of the
> program to .NET, implementing some basic functions of Tise in C#. The
> good news is that it worked fine. However, I didn't have enough free
> time or enough motivation to complete it. You see, the activity of
> this group is quite low, and that either means that most people are
> perfectly happy with Tise  how it is now or (much more likely) that
> there is not enough interest to this program among the Tibetan-typing
> community.
>
> Regards,
> Grigory
>
> On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 13:12, Christopher Bell <cp...@virginia.edu> wrote:
> > I understand the desire not to make the Tise code open-source.  Do you have
> > any other suggestions, though?  Can you get access to a x64 system to
> > recompile it?  I tried installing Wylie Word and that didn't work either.
> > I'm getting desperate here; I need to be able to type Tibetan.
>
> > Chris
>
> > On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 12:32 AM, Christopher Fynn <chris.f...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
>
> >> Hi Gregory
>
> >> I don't have 64-bit Vista machine either ~ but I know that even the
> >> fairly simple keyboard DLL's created with MSKLC need re-compiling for
> >> 64-bit  systems - so I suspect anything that hooks the keyboard input
> >> will need re-compiling for 64-bit Vista.
>
> >> - Chris
>
> >> 2009/3/19 Grigory Mokhin <mok...@gmail.com>:
>
> >> > It is possible that this 32-bit DLL is not loaded properly on a 64-bit
> >> > system. Anyway, I'd appreciate any other reports confirming that the
> >> > problem is related with 64-bit system, and not with Vista permissions
> >> > (for example, the permissions related with executing the code in
> >> > non-standard directories or accessing the registry). I don't have a
> >> > 64-bit Vista machine at the moment to test it by myself.
>
> >> > Regards,
> >> > Gregory
>
> >> > On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 13:13, Christopher Fynn <chris.f...@gmail.com>

Grigory Mokhin

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May 4, 2009, 11:13:11 AM5/4/09
to tise-...@googlegroups.com
Hi Fabrizio,

The development of Tise started in 2001 when Jim Valby asked me to
write a replacement for tibwin utility by Marvin Moser, that worked
for windows 95/98, but not for 2000/XP. This work was supported by
several members of the International Dzogchen Community, because
Chögyal Namkhai Norbu, the founder and the head of the Dzogchen
Community, needed a tool for Tibetan typing.

In 2005 I made a Unicode version of Tise, that became necessary with
the development of OpenType fonts. David Germano offered me his copy
of Microsoft Visual Studio.

The programming work itself required some investigation into poorly
documented section of keyboard APIs. It is not an easy task to
understand all the parts of my source code, because some of them were
necessary only as a workaround for the bugs in the underlying API. I'm
almost sure that Vista and 64-bit systems will have a different flavor
of these bugs and some other bugs, and the porting will not be as
straightforward as it may seem. This is one of the reasons I don't
open the source code, not to mention the letters from the software
companies who asked me to give out this code for their commercial
products.

Best wishes,
Gregory

Fabrizio Romano

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May 5, 2009, 6:28:34 AM5/5/09
to Tise Development
Hi Grigory,
I can understand it would not be a cake job.
I am a coder too and I was unsatisfied with the tools you can find in
internet to type tibetan.
So when I found Tise, I thought it was really cool. It is small, it
works nice and most of all, it's free.
The fact that it is free is really important in my opinion, since Tise
is used to type tibetan and tibetan is mostly used to write Dharma,
so, the more people do that, the better and when you give people free
tools, they use them and share them.
Even if one doesn't practice as a buddhist, just being in contact with
the tibetan language can be of a great benefit and it will bring great
benefit also to you.
So I got immediately fond of this tool I abandoned the fancy idea I
had for a while of making a similar tool in c# (or python perhaps)
myself, since it would require some time (which alas I don't have
right now) and moreover, I don't like to reinvent the wheel, so to
speak.

I really hope one day you'll be able to make this transition,
meanwhile I'll keep searching.

I wish you the best,
kindest regards
Fabrizio


On May 4, 5:13 pm, Grigory Mokhin <mok...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Fabrizio,
>
> The development of Tise started in 2001 when Jim Valby asked me to
> write a replacement for tibwin utility by Marvin Moser, that worked
> for windows 95/98, but not for 2000/XP. This work was supported by
> several members of the International Dzogchen Community, because
> Chögyal Namkhai Norbu, the founder and the head of the Dzogchen
> Community, needed a tool for Tibetan typing.
>
> In 2005 I made a Unicode version of Tise, that became necessary with
> the development of OpenType fonts. David Germano offered me his copy
> of Microsoft Visual Studio.
>
> The programming work itself required some investigation into poorly
> documented section of keyboard  APIs. It is not an easy task to
> understand all the parts of my source code, because some of them were
> necessary only as a workaround for the bugs in the underlying API. I'm
> almost sure that Vista and 64-bit systems will have a different flavor
> of these bugs and some other bugs, and the porting will not be as
> straightforward as it may seem. This is one of the reasons I don't
> open the source code, not to mention the letters from the software
> companies who asked me to give out this code for their commercial
> products.
>
> Best wishes,
> Gregory
>

Chris...@gmail.com

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May 7, 2009, 2:09:04 PM5/7/09
to Fabrizio Romano, tise-...@googlegroups.com
Fabrizio,

If you are using MS Word I think THL has a "Wylie Word" template available that will allow you to type Tibetan into Word documents using extended Wylie (EWTS) - similar to Tise. The main drawback is that this only works in MS Word. Adrew West's free BabelPad Unicode text editor also includes a built-in EWTS input method for typing Tibetan - so you could use that too.

Another alternative to Tise would be to install and use the Dzongkha keyboard instead. This is not a "Wylie" input method, but it is a *very* easy to learn simple keyboard layout for typing Tibetan script. It can be installed in Windows Vista and assigned to "Tibetan". The dll for the Dzongkha keyboard layout was created using Microsoft's free MSKLC - I think you may need to re-compile it for 64-bit Vista ~ but that should be straigtforward enough to do if you download the appropriate version of MSKLC.

Gregory is probably right about the difficulty of converting Tise to run on 64-bit Windows. I once made a Tibetan input-method for Windows 3.x (TibKey) and it took a very long time to figure out how to set all the different system level journal and keyboard hooks - and the order in which to set them. Most of this sort of thing in Windows is undocumented ~ and in my experience whatever documentation there was turned out to be either wrong or misleading.

best regards

- Chris

Grigory Mokhin

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May 7, 2009, 3:22:11 PM5/7/09
to tise-...@googlegroups.com
Tise uses low-level keyboard hooks that were introduced in win2k, I
can only imagine all the difficulties of developing a Tibetan input
method in Windows 3.1...

And unfortunately, doing the development on a virtual 64-bit system is
not an option for testing low-level keyboard hooks with the difference
of "real" and "injected" keystrokes... Otherwise I could try install
a virtual 64-bit system on my 3+ yr old laptop with WinXP. There
should be a physical 64-bit machine with a real keyboard.

Regards,
Gregory
> &gt
> >
>

Fabrizio Romano

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May 8, 2009, 4:10:04 AM5/8/09
to Tise Development
Thank you both for your suggestions.

The Dzongkha keyboard is what I was using before discovering Tise, but
alas it doesn't work on x64 o.s.
Vista x64 lets me install just the Tibetan PRC (ironically...).
I tried wylie word too, but it somehow broke my word 2007 installation
so I had to uninstall it.
I tryed Sambhota add-in, but had some issues with that too.
I even bought the latest TibetDoc program which works fine with
tibetan but pecha customization is quite limited and sanskrit stacks
are not a piece of cake to do.
I also tried out Keyman Desktop 7.1, but wasn't completely satisfied
with that too.
The bottom line is: to make things exactly how I want them to be, I
need word (or openoffice), and therefore I need a tool that either
works as an add-in for word (excluding OO in this case) or works by
setting a hook, like Tise.

The reason I got so fond of Tise is that it solves all these problems
I encounter with other programs. Wylie works very good (also it is
very fast simply because to make a ka you just have to type k e.g.)
and sanskrit stacks are easy to do too.

The first thing I tried was to write the Om Mani Padme Hum mantra and
Tise was the only tool I could do it with very easily. Another example
is the karma word. With Tise I type kar+ma and it is done. With
TibetDoc I must type ka space backspace (to suppress the tsek) rma. Is
just a couple of more keys, I know, but if you multiply that for a non
negligible number of lines you get the idea of the time wasted.

I guess, as suggested by Gregory, that dot net may be the solution for
this problem. In fact it took me about 20 lines of code to setup a
global keyboard hook that works fine. I hope one day I'll have the
time to write an app on my own, even if for now I don't really know
how to do the wylie to tibetan translation efficiently (c:

But thank you again for your time.

Kindest regards,
Fabrizio


On May 7, 9:22 pm, Grigory Mokhin <mok...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Tise uses low-level keyboard hooks that were introduced in win2k, I
> can only imagine all the difficulties of developing a Tibetan input
> method in Windows 3.1...
>
> And unfortunately, doing the development on a virtual 64-bit system is
> not an option for testing low-level keyboard hooks with the difference
> of "real" and "injected" keystrokes... Otherwise I could try  install
> a virtual 64-bit system on my 3+ yr old laptop with WinXP. There
> should be a physical 64-bit machine with a real keyboard.
>
> Regards,
> Gregory
>
> On Thu, May 7, 2009 at 13:09,  <Chris.F...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Fabrizio,
>
> > If you are using MS Word I think THL has a "Wylie Word" template available
> > that will allow you to type Tibetan into Word documents using extended Wylie
> > (EWTS) - similar to Tise. The main drawback is that this only works in MS
> > Word. Adrew West's free BabelPad Unicode text editor also includes a
> > built-in EWTS input method for typing Tibetan - so you could use that too.
>
> > Another alternative to Tise would be to install and use the Dzongkha
> > keyboard instead. This is not a "Wylie" input method, but it is a *very*
> > easy to learn simple keyboard layout for typing Tibetan script. It can be
> > installed in Windows Vista and assigned to "Tibetan". The dll for the
> > Dzongkha keyboard layout was created using Microsoft's free MSKLC - I think
> > you may need to re-compile it for 64-bit Vista ~ but that should be
> > straigtforward enough to do if you download the appropriate version of
> > MSKLC.
>
> > Gregory is probably right about the difficulty of converting Tise to run on
> > 64-bit Windows. I once made a Tibetan input-method for Windows 3.x (TibKey)
> > and it took a very long time to figure out how to set all the different
> > system level journal and keyboard hooks - and the order in which to set
> > them. Most of this sort of thing in Windows is undocumented ~ and in my
> > experience whatever documentation there was turned out to be either wrong or
> > misleading.
>
> > best regards
>
> > - Chris
>
> ...
>
> read more »

Christopher Fynn

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May 10, 2009, 1:52:38 PM5/10/09
to tise-...@googlegroups.com
Though it is not a Wylie input method, it should be easy enough to
recompile the Dzongkha keyboard for 64 bit Windows with MSKLC which
can be downloaded from Microsoft. The Dzongkha keyboard is a very easy
method to type Unicode Tibetan.

(It also requires less keystrokes than a Wylie input method)


- Chris

2009/3/23 Christopher Bell <cp...@virginia.edu>:

Christopher Fynn

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May 10, 2009, 2:14:46 PM5/10/09
to tise-...@googlegroups.com
Link for MSKLC:

<http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-gb/goglobal/bb964665.aspx>

"* Build keyboard layout DLLs for x86, x64, and IA64 platforms"

Fabrizio Romano

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May 10, 2009, 4:52:54 PM5/10/09
to Tise Development
Allright, I'll try and if I succeed I'll post a link on where to
download the altered keyboard for the x64.

Cheers,
Fabrizio

Fabrizio Romano

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May 10, 2009, 6:14:38 PM5/10/09
to Tise Development
Well,
it seems I did it, or at least, it's working on my x64 machine.
The original file was so messed up and buggy that I had to recreate
the keyboard from scratch, but now it gives the same exact results for
all the keys (including shift and altgr combinations) on my i386 and
x64 machines.

I don't know if I can post it somewhere on my website, for copyright
reasons (I left the original copyright anyway), so for now if anyone
wants it, I'll be happy to send it (it's 235 Kb zipped with 7-zip).

Just drop me a mail at sfa...@gmail.com.

Best regards,
Fabrizio

Christopher Fynn

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May 10, 2009, 11:23:07 PM5/10/09
to tise-...@googlegroups.com
Hi Fabrizio

Glad you got it working. Do please send me a copy.

the original version was made eight or nine years ago with a very
early version of MSKLC ~ There were a lot of problems at the time
trying to assign tsheg to the space bar. This version was just a dll
and a file to update the registry. Later Robert Chilton also made a
version his used Caps-Lock instead of RAlt and had an installer. Don't
kow which version you started with.

There are no copyright issues - the layout is public.

I know it is nice to have an EWTS/Wylie input method - but the
Dzongkha keyboard layout is fairly easy to implement on any system,
easy for anyone who knows the Tibetan alphabet to learn and requires
less keystrokes then Wylie. Of course if the US keyboard & Wylie are
burned into your brain it is a bit awkward.

- Chris

Thimphu, Bhutan

2009/5/11 Fabrizio Romano <sfa...@gmail.com>:

Fabrizio Romano

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May 11, 2009, 5:25:46 AM5/11/09
to Tise Development
Done, let me know if it works or if there are problems.
gmail hasn't aloowed me to send a zip with an exe inside, so you'll
receive the mail from my personal account at zerovolt.com.

Best regards,
Fabrizio

On May 11, 5:23 am, Christopher Fynn <chris.f...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Fabrizio
>
> Glad you got it working. Do please send me a copy.
>
> the original version was made eight or nine years ago with a very
> early version of MSKLC ~ There were a lot of problems at the time
> trying to assign tsheg  to the space bar. This version was just a dll
> and a file to update the registry.  Later Robert Chilton also made a
> version his used Caps-Lock instead of RAlt and had an installer. Don't
> kow which version you started with.
>
> There are no  copyright issues - the layout is public.
>
> I know it is nice to have an EWTS/Wylie input method - but the
> Dzongkha keyboard layout is fairly easy to implement on any system,
> easy for anyone who knows the Tibetan alphabet to learn and requires
> less keystrokes then Wylie. Of course if the US keyboard & Wylie are
> burned into your brain it is a bit awkward.
>
> -  Chris
>
> Thimphu, Bhutan
>
> 2009/5/11 Fabrizio Romano <sfab...@gmail.com>:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Well,
> > it seems I did it, or at least, it's working on my x64 machine.
> > The original file was so messed up and buggy that I had to recreate
> > the keyboard from scratch, but now it gives the same exact results for
> > all the keys (including shift and altgr combinations) on my i386 and
> > x64 machines.
>
> > I don't know if I can post it somewhere on my website, for copyright
> > reasons (I left the original copyright anyway), so for now if anyone
> > wants it, I'll be happy to send it (it's 235 Kb zipped with 7-zip).
>
> > Just drop me a mail at sfab...@gmail.com.
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