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edu...@gmail.com

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Sep 5, 2007, 1:36:24 PM9/5/07
to tirania.org blog comments.
Hola Miguel!

This is what I think about the Silverlight collaboration:
d
* If I were you, I would be just happy that Microsoft officially
works towards supporting Silverlight in Linux, the banned word in Xbox
live.
* This move actually makes Silverlight a more open approach to
multimedia in the web than Flash because AFAIK Adobe doesn't
collaborate with gnash or other open source implementations.

But:

* I think we'll all agree that this collaboration can be seen as part
of an strategy to gain acceptance in a flash dominated world. I've got
no problem with that if this kind of competition benefits the users..
but why didn't Microsoft standarize Silverlight like they did with CLR
and C#? This make me think that all this collaboration is temporal.
They could drop it after getting a fair share of market. Of course, if
anything this collaboration is better than nothing so even if people
critizise it (and they will!), I don't feel you did a bad thing.
* Will you continue to develop a parallel batery of open source test
suite (like you have already) that are available not only to you but
also to other independent open source developers?
* What about microsoft patents? If I create my own linux distro or I
use a distro that is not mainstream or just doesn't have a deal with
the daemon.. err Microsoft.. like Novell has.. Will I have to suffer
the shadow of Microsoft patents over Silverlight when using or
developing Moonlight?

Thanks in advance,
Eduardo Robles Elvira (Edulix).

Miguel de Icaza

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Sep 6, 2007, 1:37:44 AM9/6/07
to tiraniaorg-b...@googlegroups.com, edu...@gmail.com
Hello,

* I think we'll all agree that this collaboration can be seen as part
of an strategy to gain acceptance in a flash dominated world. I've got
no problem with that if this kind of competition benefits the users..
but why didn't Microsoft standarize Silverlight like they did with CLR
and C#? This make me think that all this collaboration is temporal.

I do not blame them.   OOXML is a superb standard and yet, it has been
FUDed so badly by its competitors that serious people believe that
there is something fundamentally wrong with it.   This is at a time when
OOXML as a spec is in much better shape than any other spec on that
space.

Besides, it is always better to have two implementations and then standardize
than trying to standardize a single implementation.

* Will you continue to develop a parallel batery of open source test
suite (like you have already) that are available not only to you but
also to other independent open source developers?

Yes, those are some of the practices that we believe are core to Mono.

* What about microsoft patents? If I create my own linux distro or I
use a distro that is not mainstream or just doesn't have a deal with
the daemon.. err Microsoft.. like Novell has.. Will I have to suffer
the shadow of Microsoft patents  over Silverlight when using or
developing Moonlight?

Not as long as you get/download Moonlight from Novell which will include patent
coverage.

Miguel


rmh.d...@gmail.com

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Sep 7, 2007, 7:00:13 AM9/7/07
to tirania.org blog comments.
On Sep 6, 7:37 am, "Miguel de Icaza" <miguel.de.ic...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>
> I do not blame them. OOXML is a superb standard and yet, it has been
> FUDed so badly by its competitors that serious people believe that
> there is something fundamentally wrong with it. This is at a time when
> OOXML as a spec is in much better shape than any other spec on that
> space.
>
> [...]

> * What about microsoft patents? If I create my own linux distro or I
>
> > use a distro that is not mainstream or just doesn't have a deal with
> > the daemon.. err Microsoft.. like Novell has.. Will I have to suffer
> > the shadow of Microsoft patents over Silverlight when using or
> > developing Moonlight?
>
> Not as long as you get/download Moonlight from Novell which will include
> patent
> coverage.

Do you seriously believe I owe you money for the privilege of reading
text documents and browsing the web? What comes next?

Miguel de Icaza

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Sep 7, 2007, 12:29:18 PM9/7/07
to tiraniaorg-b...@googlegroups.com, rmh.d...@gmail.com
Hello,

Do you seriously believe I owe you money for the privilege of reading
text documents and browsing the web?  What comes next?

Who said so?  

You do not have to pay anyone any money.   Duh.

Nobody said so.   Either English is not your first language, or your reading
and comprehension skills are busted.

Miguel.


gabrie...@gmail.com

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Sep 7, 2007, 7:42:18 PM9/7/07
to tirania.org blog comments.
On Sep 6, 12:37 am, "Miguel de Icaza" <miguel.de.ic...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Not as long as you get/download Moonlight from Novell which will include
> patent coverage.

Is the patent coverage you are talking about here anything to do with
Moonlight, or just the codec's Microsoft is providing Moonlight
users? (I think I know the answer, but just to clear this point up).

Gabriel

Miguel de Icaza

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Sep 7, 2007, 8:18:22 PM9/7/07
to tiraniaorg-b...@googlegroups.com, gabrie...@gmail.com

> Not as long as you get/download Moonlight from Novell which will include
> patent coverage.

Is the patent coverage you are talking about here anything to do with
Moonlight, or just the codec's Microsoft is providing Moonlight
users?  (I think I know the answer, but just to clear this point up).

All of Moonlight.

In fact the codecs will be downloaded from Microsoft and will have their own EULA.

Miguel.


Simon Phipps

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Sep 7, 2007, 8:35:29 PM9/7/07
to tiraniaorg-b...@googlegroups.com, gabrie...@gmail.com

Will that EULA be for non-commercial use only like the one we are
discussing on the other thread?

S.

Miguel de Icaza

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Sep 8, 2007, 12:38:41 AM9/8/07
to tiraniaorg-b...@googlegroups.com, web...@gmail.cvom
I imagine the mpegla patent license will ve the same. But I have not
seen that EULA.

You can choose to not get the MPEGLA license and use ffmpeg which
contanins no such clause and is lgpl.

That being said, considering what I pointed out in the other thread, I
suspect that "non-commercial" does not mean "use inside in a company"
but "use the dxecoding for profit" considering that every MacOS has
the exact same MPEGLA license terms.

Webmink

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Sep 8, 2007, 10:24:21 AM9/8/07
to tirania.org blog comments.

On Sep 8, 5:38 am, "Miguel de Icaza" <miguel.de.ic...@gmail.com>
wrote:


> That being said, considering what I pointed out in the other thread, I
> suspect that "non-commercial" does not mean "use inside in a company"
> but "use the dxecoding for profit" considering that every MacOS has
> the exact same MPEGLA license terms.

That sounds reasonable, but note the terms say /personal/ and non-
commercial...

S.

Andreia Gaita

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Sep 8, 2007, 12:31:34 PM9/8/07
to tirania.org blog comments.
On Sep 8, 3:24 pm, Webmink <webm...@gmail.com> wrote:
> That sounds reasonable, but note the terms say /personal/ and non-
> commercial...

Yes, because you, as a *person*, are viewing video content in, let's
say, your workplace (a commercial establishment), for yourself, not
earning anything by that action (no commercial profit in it). Seeing
that, as miguel as pointed out very thoroughly, MacOS comes with the
very same licensing terms, and no one as any doubts that it can be
used in the workplace, why do you keep pressing that maybe in this
particular setting (silverlight), that very same words in that very
same license might have a different meaning? Might it be you're
thinking that, because it comes from Microsoft, they have somehow put
a juju in it that makes the very same license say mean different
things? :p

andreia gaita

Webmink

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Sep 8, 2007, 6:39:22 PM9/8/07
to tirania.org blog comments.
No - I don't like it in any of the places I see it.

S.

martin.s...@gmail.com

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Sep 10, 2007, 5:39:21 AM9/10/07
to tirania.org blog comments.
On 6 Sep., 07:37, "Miguel de Icaza" <miguel.de.ic...@gmail.com> wrote:
> OOXML is a superb standard and yet, it has been
> FUDed so badly by its competitors that serious people believe that
> there is something fundamentally wrong with it. This is at a time when
> OOXML as a spec is in much better shape than any other spec on that
> space.

Michael Meeks didn't seem to think so at FOSDEM 2007.

> >Will I have to suffer
> > the shadow of Microsoft patents over Silverlight when using or
> > developing Moonlight?
>
> Not as long as you get/download Moonlight from Novell which will include
> patent
> coverage.

You're saying two things here that really shock me. Please tell me I
misunderstood.

1) You're saying that people _will_ have patent problems - i.e.
Moonlight "infringes" MS patents and doesn't work around them. Even
though Novell promised never to ship code that infringes MS patents -
but always avoid them one way or another.

2) You're saying other distributors can't ship Moonlight legally (in
the US) because of patent issues. Making Moonlight effectively non-
free (as in freedom).

I hope it's just a matter of you being too fast on the trigger and
your answer missing some elaboration - if this is the case you should
really choose your words more carefully when talking about patents in
the future - unless you want to hurt Novell.

If you're actually saying what it sounds like you're saying (see item
#1 and #2) I can only say OMFG...

Miguel de Icaza

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Sep 10, 2007, 11:26:47 AM9/10/07
to tiraniaorg-b...@googlegroups.com, martin.s...@gmail.com
Hello,

On 9/10/07, martin.s...@gmail.com <martin.s...@gmail.com > wrote:

On 6 Sep., 07:37, "Miguel de Icaza" < miguel.de.ic...@gmail.com> wrote:
> OOXML is a superb standard and yet, it has been
> FUDed so badly by its competitors that serious people believe that
> there is something fundamentally wrong with it.   This is at a time when
> OOXML as a spec is in much better shape than any other spec on that
> space.

Michael Meeks didn't seem to think so at FOSDEM 2007.

That is odd.   Michael and I have discussed this topic extensively.   He certainly would like clarification in various areas and more details in some.   But Michael's criticism (or for that matter, the Novell OpenOffice team working with that spec) seems to be incredibly different than the laundry list of issues that pass as technical reviews in sites like Groklaw.

The difference is that the Novell-based criticism is based on actually trying to implement the spec.   Not reading the spec for the sake of finding holes that can be used in a political battle.

Finally, Michael sounded incredibly positive after the ECMA meeting last month when all of their technical questions were either answered or added to the batch of things to review.   I know you are going to say "The spec is not owned by ECMA", well, currently the working group that will review the ISO comments is at ECMA.  

For another view at OOXML look at what Jody Goldberg (no longer a Novell employee) has to say about OOXML and ODF from the perspective of implementing both:

http://blogs.gnome.org/jody/2007/09/10/odf-vs-oox-asking-the-wrong-questions/

I find it hilarious that the majority (not all) of the criticism for OOXML comes from people that do not have to write any code that interacts with OOXML.  Those that know do not seem to mind (except those whose personal business is at risk because Microsoft moved away from a binary format to an XML format, which I also find hilarious).

> >Will I have to suffer
> > the shadow of Microsoft patents  over Silverlight when using or
> > developing Moonlight?
>
> Not as long as you get/download Moonlight from Novell which will include
> patent
> coverage.

You're saying two things here that really shock me. Please tell me I
misunderstood.

1) You're saying that people _will_ have patent problems - i.e.
Moonlight "infringes" MS patents and doesn't work around them. Even
though Novell promised never to ship code that infringes MS patents -
but always avoid them one way or another.

First of all, am not aware of such Novell promise to "never ship code that infringes MS patents".   You can not make such statement because for one, the patent system is broken.   Novell statements are wildly different, they are of the form "we do not believe that we infringe" and am sure they say something along the lines of "we dont plan on infringing, and we plan on removing infringing code".  But I am not aware of all the promises Novell has made, and I can not comment on other parts of the organization.  If you want an official answer, my personal blog on politics and poor attempts at humor is not the place to get an official answer.  Contact Novell public relations for that.

But you might be referring to the policy that we use for Mono, and I will be happy to discuss those with you.   The policies are on our FAQ, so you might want to read that before you post in panic again. 

Moonlight does not have the same policy that Mono does in terms of us working around to remove infringing code.   For one, we do not know what it could be (that is how the patent system works) and two we have agreed and have obtained permission from any patents that might exist in Moonlight to implement it.   So our policy with Moonlight is different from Mono because of the requirements of this task (see mpegla.com for your own amusement).

That being said, in neither case are we aware of infringements.   But like with any software piece, every 100 lines of code infringe someone's broken patent, there is just no way around that.

2) You're saying other distributors can't ship Moonlight legally (in
the US) because of patent issues. Making Moonlight effectively non-
free (as in freedom).

Am not sure where you get the idea that the "US" is the only place where software patents exist.   Free software people are under the mistaken impression that software patents are only a US thing, while many of the stake holders are European companies.   The only difference is that in Europe your "software patent" is written to describe a machine.   Law firms will offer you a set of checkboxes to "port" your patent from the US-wording to any other nation wording.   And the patents are enforceable in most countries in the EU.   Not surprising, as the EU owns many of patents on the media space.

We are obtaining covenants (from Microsoft) and patent licenses (from MPEGLA, the consortium of American, European and Asian companies that own the "media space") to be allowed to redistribute Moonlight with a minimal risk to the end user.  

I say "minimal risk" and not "risk free", because that is the nature of software patents, we could be infringing a patent from some guy in Latvia for walking a linked list.  

So that is the approach that we are taking to distribute for commercial use Moonlight, a plugin that operates in the media space: a patent rich and incredibly profitable space for the patent holders.  The rights negotiated will give anyone patent coverage, as long as it is downloaded from Novell.  Although I would like to fix the patent system, am not the one going to do so.   It feels like boiling the ocean, and I have already done my share of ocean boiling, feel free to pick the good fight.

I hope it's just a matter of you being too fast on the trigger and
your answer missing some elaboration - if this is the case you should
really choose your words more carefully when talking about patents in
the future - unless you want to hurt Novell.

Well, it certainly merits an extended explanation.  I have tried to summarize some of the issues above media patents but the space is incredibly complicated and no amount of one-liners can precisely describe the problems, the limitations and all the special conditions attached to them. 

The problem is that people think that the problem is as simple as "patents bad" and everyone wrapping his virtual kafia around his head and running to the streets yelling "death to patents" has no idea how complex the system is and how little effect yelling has on actually changing anything.  If you want to engage on a serious patent discussion, I would love to do so, but you are going to need some legal training and get a lot more depth before we can have a productive discussion.

If you're actually saying what it sounds like you're saying (see item
#1 and #2) I can only say OMFG...

Well, I did not say that.   So you can put the Ventolin down and breathe.  

Miguel.

ari...@gmail.com

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Sep 10, 2007, 5:54:06 PM9/10/07
to tirania.org blog comments.

Mohammad

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Sep 11, 2007, 12:41:42 AM9/11/07
to tirania.org blog comments.

On Sep 11, 1:26 am, "Miguel de Icaza" <miguel.de.ic...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> The problem is that people think that the problem is as simple as "patents
> bad" and everyone wrapping his virtual kafia around his head and running to
> the streets yelling "death to patents" has no idea how complex the system is
> and how little effect yelling has on actually changing anything. If you
> want to engage on a serious patent discussion, I would love to do so, but
> you are going to need some legal training and get a lot more depth before we
> can have a productive discussion.
>

With respect to all of your deep understanding of the patent issue and
your assumption that most of the people doesn't understand this *huge
complicated* issue,
i don't see the point of how it is not logical for one wanting to
throw away patent (yelling "death to patent") just knowing the basic
fact that it may hinder (which it usually does) the concept freedom.
Somebody keeping a patent right on something and providing it for free
to me is not good enough as there can be situation where this
"providing for free" is discontinued.

Above all, what is the problem to get rid of a *very leagal serious
complex* system which may result in the same situation as not having
the system at all. If you don't understand this concept let me know, i
will try to dumb it down.

Also one other note, i have seen the noise relating to this OOXML
standard. Now that you are claiming OOXML to be "superb" I guess you
are one real person (outside MS gallery. are you?!!?) who has a
substantial understanding of the standard - you are one person to ask.

Can you verify if the concerns prompted in the following link is all
FUD or not?

http://fsfeurope.org/documents/msooxml-questions


Regards,

Soyuz

asbjornu

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Sep 11, 2007, 9:16:03 AM9/11/07
to tirania.org blog comments.
On 6 Sep, 07:37, "Miguel de Icaza" <miguel.de.ic...@gmail.com> wrote:

> OOXML is a superb standard and yet, it has been FUDed so badly by
> its competitors that serious people believe that there is something
> fundamentally wrong with it. This is at a time when OOXML as a spec
> is in much better shape than any other spec on that space.

I have absolutely no commercial interest in the Office format space,
but I still find the OOXML specification to be utter crap. As a
developer, I think it's of so poor quality that it's very difficult to
get even the simplest things right. Stéphane Rodriguez touches upon a
couple of the problems in his blog post "OOXML is defective by
design"[1].

I agree that there has been a lot of FUD over OOXML, but even after
sorting through it and reading (parts of) the specification, I think
it's catastrophic, from a technical standpoint. If the specification
is so superb, then you might be able to explain how the backward
compatibility flags "autoSpaceLikeWord95", "footnoteLayoutLikeWW8",
"lineWrapLikeWord6", "mwSmallCaps", "optimizeForBrowser",
"shapeLayoutLikeWW8", "supressTopSpacingWP",
"truncateFontHeightsLikeWP6", "useWord2002TableStyleRules",
"useWord97LineBreakRules", "useWord97LineBreakRules",
"wpJustification", "wpSpaceWidth", "sldSyncPr", "securityDescriptor"
and "revisionsPassword" are supposed to be implemented? Does the
specification say?

How do you implement the different style labels used in the
specification, like "chicago", "ideographDigital",
"ideographLegalTraditional", "koreanDigital2" and "koreanLegal"? These
labels are just named; how they are supposed to be implemented and
look like is up to interpretation. Also, how is the
"securityDescriptor" attribute supposed to be implemented
interoperably? It has no defined semantics or data structure. It is
impossible to know how to handle this without reverse engineering
Microsoft Office 2007 documents using this attribute.

Do you think an international standard should contain wording like
"For legacy reasons, an implementation using the 1900 date base system
shall treat 1900 as though it was a leap year. [...] A consequence of
this is that for dates between January 1 and February 28, WEEKDAY
shall return a value for the day immediately prior to the correct day,
so that the (non-existent) date February 29 has a day-of-the-week that
immediately follows that of February 28, and immediately precedes that
of March 1."?

Wouldn't it be more sane to just use the Gregorian calendar and
preserve this backward compatibility through conversion filtering
inside Microsoft Office instead? After all, the binary documents are
still proprietary and closed source, so direct compatibility with
those documents in other applications than Microsoft Office is a non-
concern for the OOXML specification. Right?

And how can a "superb standard" implement features ("Basic String")
that break XML conformance when used? And is it a "superb standard"
worthy to use opaque bitmask integers to encode information instead of
XML itself? I don't think that's very good XML design at least. I also
think it's bad software design in general to use your own date formats
(instead of relying on international standards like ISO-8601 or
RFC-3339) and not even being consistent within the specification it's
used. There are several incompatible date serialization formats used
in OOXML, which all require their own deserialization/serialization
algorithms, test suites, etc. This is a burden on the developer and
will cause interoperability problems.

A standard, especially a "superb" one, should provide a summary of
good and best practice based on consensus of expert opinion. OOXML is
just an XML-serialized dump of Microsoft Office 2007's internal object
hierarchy, and just by skimming quickly through the specification you
should find so many glaringly ugly design decisions that you, as a
developer, should be hard pressed to call it a "superb standard". It
doesn't follow best practices, it ignores existing well-deployed and
well-known global standards, it relies on proprietary, binary,
unspecified and probably patented formats (like VML, EMF and WMF), it
doesn't go into enough detail on a lot of properties that, if not
implemented correctly (which is impossible with the current
specification), will hurt interoperability.

Seeing that Microsoft and Brian Jones don't even commit to complying
with OOXML[2], I don't see the value of the standard at all. It would
provide some value, even in its current (far from perfect) form, but
without support in Microsoft Office, it's just 6.000 pages of
meaningless junk. So, do you still stand by your statement that OOXML
is a "superb standard"? If you do, I'd love if you could go into
detail on what makes it so superb, because all I see is a very poor
specification that (in the future) doesn't even specify Microsoft
Office's default formats.

____
[1] <http://ooxmlisdefectivebydesign.blogspot.com/2007/08/microsoft-
office-xml-formats-defective.html>
[2] <http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?
command=viewArticleBasic&taxonomyName=government&articleId=302256&taxonomyId=13&intsrc=kc_feat>

Adhemar....@gmail.com

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Sep 11, 2007, 3:53:44 AM9/11/07
to tirania.org blog comments.
Miguel wrote:
> OOXML is a superb standard and yet, it has been
> FUDed so badly by its competitors that serious people believe that
> there is something fundamentally wrong with it.

There *is* something fundamentaly wrong with the proposed OOXML
standard. In fact, more than one thing.

> The problem is that people think that the problem is as simple as "patents
> bad" and everyone wrapping his virtual kafia around his head and running to
> the streets yelling "death to patents" has no idea how complex the system is
> and how little effect yelling has on actually changing anything.

First, I do believe software patents are bad.

Second, I do think the Mono project is great, and there patent policy
makes sense for a product. (http://www.mono-project.com/
FAQ:_Licensing#Patents). However, for a spec to become an ISO
standard, it should be open to be implemented legally, and if any
patents are blocking that requirements, sound guarantees should be
given.

But the patents problem is only one of the many problems surrounding
OOXML. More fundamentally, the specification requires implementers to
implement bugs (such as 29 February 1900) and to emulate strange
behaviour of old Microsoft-products without describing what that
behaviour is. That is, amongs other defections, most of them by
design.

I have great doubts that anyone that claims that the OOXML spec is
superb, actually read the spec, or even just parts of the spec.

jaims...@gmail.com

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Sep 11, 2007, 4:13:39 AM9/11/07
to tirania.org blog comments.
Hi Miguel.

Just one question as I've not made my mind up yet about the whole
picture about OOXML, gnome, the open source and microsoft,
I wont judge at this point the quality of OOXML specification, but it
seems that microsoft has been bribing and playing not so nice to try
to ensure the aproval of OOXML as ISO standard.

What do you think about that, rather than the technologic point of
view?

Un saludo

On Sep 6, 7:37 am, "Miguel de Icaza" <miguel.de.ic...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Dan

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Sep 11, 2007, 8:39:59 AM9/11/07
to tirania.org blog comments.
Hello Miguel,

In regards to this:

> I find it hilarious that the majority (not all) of the criticism for OOXML
> comes from people that do not have to write any code that interacts with
> OOXML. Those that know do not seem to mind (except those whose personal
> business is at risk because Microsoft moved away from a binary format to an
> XML format, which I also find hilarious).

I was wondering if OOXML could be propery diff'd in CVS or any other
sort of versioning system. If so, that would be much better than the
binary .DOCs.

Thanks,
Daniel

Adam Huffman

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Sep 11, 2007, 8:54:08 AM9/11/07
to tirania.org blog comments.
On Sep 10, 4:26 pm, "Miguel de Icaza" <miguel.de.ic...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Hello,
>

>
> > >Will I have to suffer
> > > > the shadow of Microsoft patents over Silverlight when using or
> > > > developing Moonlight?
>
> > > Not as long as you get/download Moonlight from Novell which will include
> > > patent
> > > coverage.
>
> > You're saying two things here that really shock me. Please tell me I
> > misunderstood.
>
>
>

> 2) You're saying other distributors can't ship Moonlight legally (in
>
> > the US) because of patent issues. Making Moonlight effectively non-
> > free (as in freedom).
>
>

> We are obtaining covenants (from Microsoft) and patent licenses (from
> MPEGLA, the consortium of American, European and Asian companies that own
> the "media space") to be allowed to redistribute Moonlight with a minimal
> risk to the end user.
>
> I say "minimal risk" and not "risk free", because that is the nature of
> software patents, we could be infringing a patent from some guy in Latvia
> for walking a linked list.
>
> So that is the approach that we are taking to distribute for commercial use
> Moonlight, a plugin that operates in the media space: a patent rich and
> incredibly profitable space for the patent holders. The rights negotiated
> will give anyone patent coverage, as long as it is downloaded from Novell.
> Although I would like to fix the patent system, am not the one going to do
> so. It feels like boiling the ocean, and I have already done my share of
> ocean boiling, feel free to pick the good fight.
>

I don't think you have really addressed the question of the separation
you have
created between Novell and the other Linux distributors by means of
this
"covenant" and the implications thereof.

Adam

rmh.d...@gmail.com

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Sep 11, 2007, 3:24:03 AM9/11/07
to tirania.org blog comments.
On Sep 7, 6:29 pm, "Miguel de Icaza" <miguel.de.ic...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Hello,
>
> Do you seriously believe I owe you money for the privilege of reading
>
> > text documents and browsing the web? What comes next?
>
> Who said so?
>
> You do not have to pay anyone any money. Duh.

That's nice. In that case, would you convince your employer's
partners to issue a free, public grant for all patents covering OOXML
and Moonlight ? I'd rather not have to pay for "protection" next time
I am forced to open a "superb" document or visit a "superb" website.

Thanks in advance

Adam Huffman

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Sep 11, 2007, 6:46:22 AM9/11/07
to tirania.org blog comments.
On Sep 10, 4:26 pm, "Miguel de Icaza" <miguel.de.ic...@gmail.com>
wrote:
>
>
>

> > >Will I have to suffer
> > > > the shadow of Microsoft patents over Silverlight when using or
> > > > developing Moonlight?
>
> > > Not as long as you get/download Moonlight from Novell which will include
> > > patent
> > > coverage.
>
> > You're saying two things here that really shock me. Please tell me I
> > misunderstood.
>
>
> 2) You're saying other distributors can't ship Moonlight legally (in
>
> > the US) because of patent issues. Making Moonlight effectively non-
> > free (as in freedom).
>
>
> So that is the approach that we are taking to distribute for commercial use
> Moonlight, a plugin that operates in the media space: a patent rich and
> incredibly profitable space for the patent holders. The rights negotiated
> will give anyone patent coverage, as long as it is downloaded from Novell.
> Although I would like to fix the patent system, am not the one going to do
> so. It feels like boiling the ocean, and I have already done my share of
> ocean boiling, feel free to pick the good fight.
>

It seems that you haven't really directly addressed the question of
your separation
between Novell and other Linux distributors with respect to "patent
coverage",
and the implications thereof.

Miguel de Icaza

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Sep 11, 2007, 10:20:02 AM9/11/07
to tiraniaorg-b...@googlegroups.com
Hello,

Also one other note, i have seen the noise relating to this OOXML
standard. Now that you are claiming OOXML to be "superb" I guess you
are one real person (outside MS gallery. are you?!!?) who has a
substantial understanding of the standard - you are one person to ask.

Can you verify if the concerns prompted in the following link is all
FUD or not?

http://fsfeurope.org/documents/msooxml-questions

Well, the document talks about "legalities" but its based on a "cursory legal study".   I did not even pay attention to the rest, it looks like the usual stuff people put out.

Miguel.

Miguel de Icaza

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Sep 11, 2007, 10:22:22 AM9/11/07
to tiraniaorg-b...@googlegroups.com
That's nice.  In that case, would you convince your employer's
partners to issue a free, public grant for all patents covering OOXML
and Moonlight ?  I'd rather not have to pay for "protection" next time
I am forced to open a "superb" document or visit a "superb" website.

You do not have to pay anyone for using OOXML or Moonlight.  

You might want to direct your fake outrage at an actual problem, rather than imaginary ones.

Miguel.


Dmitrii 'Mamut' Dimandt

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Sep 11, 2007, 12:01:02 PM9/11/07
to tirania.org blog comments.

> I find it hilarious that the majority (not all) of the criticism for OOXML
> comes from people that do not have to write any code that interacts with
> OOXML.

See http://www.codeproject.com/useritems/ooxml_is_defective.asp

There's at least one person trying to implement the spec

nachokb

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Sep 11, 2007, 12:50:19 PM9/11/07
to tirania.org blog comments.
> You do not have to pay anyone for using OOXML or Moonlight.

Do you have to ask for permission? Can I (a John Doe) develop an
application that uses OOXML, no strings attached *at all*? A small
one, not even a full application (say, reading an Excel file, doubling
the value in one cell, then saving it)? Is it future-proof? (or is
there a chance of future versions to be hijacked?)

As for the technical issues, let me refer to asbjornu's comment, which
is rather extensive, but still does not include every technically-
valid objection I have read. But please, first answer those.
There are other issues, which aren't technical, but rather ethical:

* The necessity of the creation of yet another standard (even a MS
spokesperson recognized that ODF and OOXML are not all that different,
and that they mostly overlap). They overlap almost fully (their
difference is vendor-specific and doesn't merit a new standard). The
examples brought forward by Microsoft of multiple standards are of non-
overlapping (e.g. GIF vs JPEG) standards or replacements (a new
standard overlaps mostly with an old one, but the new one is better
and aims to replace that).
* Its design: obscure, unspecified stuff (as asbjornu enumerated).
Plus, the obstination in not referencing existing standards, but using
half-baked self developed and underspecified crap, and furthermore
using them inconsistently accross the spec.
* Formal stuff: errors, ommissions, entire sections copypasted from
an applications' online help.
* Its sudden approval by ECMA in record-time, ignoring so much
technical comments, with absolutely no review.
* The amount of corruption that went into the ISO fast-track process.
Do you think all those late-coming countries are honestly voting "yes"
without comments, countries which don't have a clue about standards in
general and OOXML in particular? And what about those companies
subscribing to their NBs in nordic countries? Do you think that their
support voices legitimate support (even if MS decides to not support
them financially, they consider a competitive advantage to look good
in MS's eyes, as they are --mostly small- MS partners)? What about
chairs unilaterally changinf "No, with comments" to "Abstain"? What
about being not enough space in Portugal?

Do you really think that there's any legitimate point in OOXML, and
that it wasn't conceived only to undermine an existing,
collaboratively developed, openly and thoroughly reviewed standard?

Do you allege that ODF is insufficient and that we need a "superb"
alternative standard? If yes, then why didn't MS voice concern
earlier? (they are claiming that their actions are in the industry's
benefit, so that's what they should have done)

As a developer, I respect your work a lot and read your blog
frequently. But saying that only developers are allowed to voice
concern over a fraudulent faux-standard that affects us all is
deceitful. There are not only technical concerns (most, almost all of
them, legitimate), but also valid non-technical issues with it. Do you
really think that they are all FUD?

PJ may be emotional at times, but even in those times, her reaction is
always justified in her own words. Do you think that every concern she
raised should be disregarded the way you disregarded FSFE's position
as "(...) the
usual stuff people put out (...)".

Let me remind you that being an influential developer in the Free
Software world what you say might represent us all in certain circles.
Your reputation is not only the result of your hard work, but also the
dedication and effort that your initiatives were received with in the
community.
Even then, what do you have to say wrt Andy Updegrove's (non-
technical) concerns? Do you disregard them just as much?

I sincerely hope to see a new post in your blog explaining this
mess...

nachokb

kyk...@gmail.com

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Sep 11, 2007, 11:34:39 AM9/11/07
to tirania.org blog comments.
Miguel, you are harming opensource, Linux and Novell.

Miguel de Icaza

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Sep 11, 2007, 1:47:34 PM9/11/07
to tiraniaorg-b...@googlegroups.com
See http://www.codeproject.com/useritems/ooxml_is_defective.asp

There's at least one person trying to implement the spec

Except that Stephane's article is not very serious.

See what Morten Welinder had to say about this:

http://blogs.gnome.org/mortenw/2007/09/11/ooxml-vs-odf/

And my own rebuttal:
http://developers.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=279895&cid=20363627
Essentially, Stephane's claims are sloppy (he is well know for his sloppy claims around Brian Jones' blog).

Miguel


Miguel de Icaza

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Sep 11, 2007, 1:55:33 PM9/11/07
to tiraniaorg-b...@googlegroups.com
Do you have to ask for permission? Can I (a John Doe) develop an
application that uses OOXML, no strings attached *at all*? A small
one, not even a full application (say, reading an Excel file, doubling
the value in one cell, then saving it)? 

Yes you can.   Happy?

Now I want to apologize for not responding to any of your technical comments.  Am not going to address them as I have done that to the limit of my time on Slashdot:

http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/09/10/2343256

I juts do not care as much as all 500 posters on Slashdot seem to.

Am tired, and unlike most of you posting here, I have other things to do than convulsing over OOXML.   If my comments on slashdot are not sufficient, then go read Brian Jones blog (google it up).

Miguel

Todd Lindner

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Sep 11, 2007, 2:34:44 PM9/11/07
to tirania.org blog comments.
On Sep 11, 10:22 am, "Miguel de Icaza" <miguel.de.ic...@gmail.com>
wrote:

You said yourself it would be best to download Moonlight from Novell.
Why is that?

...because you might be held liable for downloading it outside of the
Novell/Microsoft patent protection umbrella. You might be FINANCIALLY
liable.


nachokb

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Sep 11, 2007, 3:08:03 PM9/11/07
to tirania.org blog comments.
> Yes you can. Happy?

Not yet, as that doesn't seem to be the case [1]. If I were to do
that, Microsoft could assert any patent they like, as their covenants
and such things only cover really specific cases of implementation.

[1] http://www.grokdoc.net/index.php/EOOXML_objections#Patent_rights_to_implement_the_Ecma_376_specification_have_not_been_granted

> Now I want to apologize for not responding to any of your technical
> comments. Am not going to address them as I have done that to the limit of
> my time on Slashdot:
>
> http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/09/10/2343256

I would just like you to post about it (I'm sure you do care about
this more than what Jon Galloway is posting on Twitter).

> I juts do not care as much as all 500 posters on Slashdot seem to.

Given that you defended it so harshly, it would seem that you DO
indeed care, only that it's easier to dismiss everyone who questions
your opinions as FUDders or just people with nothing to do...

> Am tired, and unlike most of you posting here, I have other things to do
> than convulsing over OOXML. If my comments on slashdot are not sufficient,
> then go read Brian Jones blog (google it up).

OK, then we can take that you wholeheartedly agree with everything
Brian Jones says wrt OOXML.

Whether you like it or not, what you say gets attention, and we really
need to know if we should have similar concerns over Mono and
Moonlight (which I'm sure you do care about). Do you really expect
linux distros to redistribute Moonlight when it gets so tainted? It
seems like you are always trying to justify everything Microsoft says
and does.


nachokb

Miguel de Icaza

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Sep 11, 2007, 4:47:55 PM9/11/07
to tiraniaorg-b...@googlegroups.com
Well, it seems like you need to be spoon-fed the information, but am not your nanny.

Go read the sources that I pointed you to, educate yourself and then post a coherent set of questions when you have exhausted every other avenue.   I do not have any patience left, as I said, the Slashdot discussion and Brian Jones blog contains answers to most of your questions.

Take it or leave it, am not your mom.

Miguel.
Message has been deleted

rmh.d...@gmail.com

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Sep 11, 2007, 4:54:16 PM9/11/07
to tirania.org blog comments.
On Sep 11, 4:22 pm, "Miguel de Icaza" <miguel.de.ic...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> > That's nice. In that case, would you convince your employer's
> > partners to issue a free, public grant for all patents covering OOXML
> > and Moonlight ? I'd rather not have to pay for "protection" next time
> > I am forced to open a "superb" document or visit a "superb" website.
>
> You do not have to pay anyone for using OOXML or Moonlight.

Well, Microsoft doesn't seem to agree with you. They think they have
some weird "Intellectual Property" thing that covers OOXML and
Moonlight. Furthermore, they have explicitly granted Novell rights to
use their "IP" thing. If those rights are meaningless, can you
explain what did Novell pay for?

But if you think this is all bullshit, why don't you put your money
where your mouth is, and promise to indemnify anyone who's threatened
for infringing patents when redistributing Moonlight or Novell's
OOXML? This way, for example, Debian could start providing these
"superb" technologies to its users while resting assured that you [1]
will take responsibility for all this "patent thing".

[1] Where "you" can be Novell, you personally or just anyone capable
of backing up "you don't have to pay" claims with something tangible.
It doesn't really matter.

rmh.d...@gmail.com

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Sep 11, 2007, 4:54:16 PM9/11/07
to tirania.org blog comments.
On Sep 11, 4:22 pm, "Miguel de Icaza" <miguel.de.ic...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> > That's nice. In that case, would you convince your employer's
> > partners to issue a free, public grant for all patents covering OOXML
> > and Moonlight ? I'd rather not have to pay for "protection" next time
> > I am forced to open a "superb" document or visit a "superb" website.
>
> You do not have to pay anyone for using OOXML or Moonlight.

Well, Microsoft doesn't seem to agree with you. They think they have

Miguel de Icaza

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Sep 11, 2007, 7:05:14 PM9/11/07
to tiraniaorg-b...@googlegroups.com
> > That's nice.  In that case, would you convince your employer's
> > partners to issue a free, public grant for all patents covering OOXML
> > and Moonlight ?  I'd rather not have to pay for "protection" next time
> > I am forced to open a "superb" document or visit a "superb" website.
>
> You do not have to pay anyone for using OOXML or Moonlight.

Well, Microsoft doesn't seem to agree with you.  They think they have
some weird "Intellectual Property" thing that covers OOXML and
Moonlight.  

Please point to the actual place where Microsoft said that OOXML is covered by the "IP" and that you can not use it without paying.  And keep it to OOXML.

Thanks,
Miguel

Miguel de Icaza

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Sep 11, 2007, 7:09:57 PM9/11/07
to tiraniaorg-b...@googlegroups.com
  This way, for example, Debian could start providing these
"superb" technologies to its users while resting assured that you [1]
will take responsibility for all this "patent thing".

As I pointed out in this thread numerous times, the patent covenant for Moonlight is available as long as you download the software from Novell.

If you want to remove OOXML support from OOo in Debian based on your inability to read the OSP, that is your prerogative.

Miguel

sunday...@gmail.com

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Sep 11, 2007, 6:00:32 PM9/11/07
to tirania.org blog comments.

On Sep 11, 10:20 am, "Miguel de Icaza" <miguel.de.ic...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Huh. So, after the excellent technical breakdowns and questions posted
and asked above, you can't manage more than a handwaiving, dismissive
"Uh, I didn't even pay attention. Just looks like FUD" answer?

Your complete lack of anything resembling a satisfactory answer, and
complete evasion, when pressed, of answering the excellent questions
above, is noted and not missed.

"The usual stuff" red herring and hand-waiving won't distract people
from wanting an answer to the questions asked. Either you are towing
the company/MS line, or you have an intelligent rebuttal.

We're wating.

Miguel de Icaza

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Sep 11, 2007, 7:34:55 PM9/11/07
to tiraniaorg-b...@googlegroups.com
Huh. So, after the excellent technical breakdowns and questions posted
and asked above, you can't manage more than a handwaiving, dismissive
"Uh, I didn't even pay attention. Just looks like FUD" answer?

You are under the mistaken assumption that I have a duty to defend OOXML , and that is not the case.   Go ask Microsoft (Brian Jones and Jason Matusow both have blogs where you can raise your issues).

You know what my opinion on the standard is, and you can read plenty of details on my postings for the time waster that was Slashdot.   Go read that.  

And if that is not enough for you, then too bad.   Am not paid to defend OOXML, I do not work on OOXML and my interest on the subject is medium-light, and it most definitely does not include spending all day addressing your concerns nor turning it into a full time job.

Miguel.


Mark Gallop

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Sep 12, 2007, 1:50:53 AM9/12/07