More volunteers needed?

[Bert]

Hi,

I love tipfy, but I was wondering if tipfy is still being actively
developed (seems to have slowed down recently) or whether we should be
looking to move to some other framework (like webapp2)? I really enjoy
using tipfy so I'd hate to move, but if its going to stop being
developed, then I'd rather move to a more actively developed
framework.

If its a case of not enough volunteers developing/supporting the
product, how does one go about "signing up" to support?


Thanks
Rob

[Rodrigo Moraes]

On Jun 29, 11:41 am, Bert wrote:
> I love tipfy, but I was wondering if tipfy is still being actively
> developed (seems to have slowed down recently) or whether we should be
> looking to move to some other framework (like webapp2)? I really enjoy
> using tipfy so I'd hate to move, but if its going to stop being
> developed, then I'd rather move to a more actively developed
> framework.

Hi,

I'm facing a dilemma with tipfy, and don't mind talking openly about
it. More and more I find little energy to work on tipfy as my interest
in webapp2 increases, and today I am a lot more interested in webapp2.
It has more potential, as integrating existing and future App Engine
services is easier, since it can work exactly like webapp (on top of
which many SDK libraries are built). This makes maintenance easier,
and the commitment to webapp compatibility keeps the framework lean
and disciplined, with some interesting twists in how it can be
extended: webapp2 is a foundation on top of which one could build a
Django, Pyramid, Flask or Bottle, but it also offers a default way of
building apps (the well known webapp way).

I think webapp2 is a better bet for the future, and there're signs
that Google is interested in incorporating some of its features in
webapp, and some defend that it should be shipped with the SDK (this
is highly speculative and unofficial, don't quote it :).

If you ask me, I won't recommend tipfy today because docs are not
updated and I don't have energy to push it forward. On the other hand
webapp2 has a decent documentation already and a well-defined DNA that
keeps it simple and tidy.

That said, I'd accept volunteers to help maintaining tipfy, or maybe
we should try to find a new maintainer for it. I'm sorry to say this.

Thoughts?

-- rodrigo

[OzzyB]

Howdy Rodrigo,

Thanks for reaching out, I hear your pain/dilemma and I appreciate
your openness.

I see two main possibilities:

1) If the problem with Tipfy as it currently stands, is "simply" a
case of documentation, then we can work on it and sort it out. So if
the question is having someone "take the lead" and go through and
rewrite/tweak the documentation, then I would be happy and willing to
do so and in turn invite others to give input in an open way too.

What I could do is start going through the Tipfy source on my github
fork and submit docs/changes as I go, and then if anyone would want to
contribute they can reference that.

I would ask you however to give me some pointers in how to best format
the text/docs correctly -- are we using Sphinx? Is that the way to go?
etc. I would also assume that adding this well-formatted docs/text to
the actual source-code would allow us to generate whatever kind of
html documentation we need... also please remember that I'm not saying
I'm the best documentation writer in the world, but I *know* English
and I'm willing to give it a shot if you think that can help us push
forward.

Now, if the problem (maybe) is "making the switch" from the old 6.x
version of Tipfy to the new 1.0 release, i.e. in terms of the actual
online documentation at Tipy.org. Then my suggestion -- eventhough it
may be unpopular -- is to make a "reset" of all the (online)
documentation, with the new Tipfy 1.0 docs set as the default.

I would imagine trying to maintain 2 versions of docs with 2 versions
of the codebase is quite difficult and stressful. I would *like* to
think that current Tipfy developers would understand this and be
proficient enough in Python etc. to weather this switch-over.

Allowing you to start over with a "clean slate" might be all the help
we need...

2) I understand as a developer, coder and problem-solver you wish to
always solve deeper and deeper problems -- I respect that, in fact, I
count on it! Having someone such as yourself *design* a framework like
Tipfy with your experience, has certainly helped me, and many others
too I'm sure.

Now, if you really feel that Webapp2 is the way to go for a happier
future in developing for GAE -- because of it's better routing etc.
Then I would urge you to consider replacing Werkzeug's Routing with
Webapp2's (or whatever it is!), and in a sense, create a new and
improved Tipfy rebuilt ontop of Webapp2.

Again, forgive my presumptuousness as only *you* can make this call,
but I'm sure all the developers that count on you for giving us a
"helping hand" with your framework would greatly appreciate it.

I know I would.

3 (optional) If you are just sick and tired of Tipfy and just want to
move on, I understand, and I don't think anyone will fault you for it.
I have seen this "version 2.0 dilemma" before and have even
experienced it myself, so I hear ya...

In fact I would be happy to buy Tipfy from you, as it is, for $1 --
because as it stands, even if there are no future updates, I think it
is a great little project :)

Thanks for everything,

Ozzy

[Sam G]

Hey Ozzy+Rodrigo,

This just popped up in my Google Reader... I've followed and used
Tipfy almost since it was first released, and I've never worked with a
framework that felt so natural. I absolutely love Tipfy, love using
it, and base every project I start off of it.

I have always thought of reaching out and offering my help to develop
for Tipfy, since I've definitely written my own modules to solve
specific issues.

Ozzy - I would be glad to help write documentation and contribute code
to move Tipfy forward. There is probably stuff I could integrate and
contribute already. How can I get started?

Rodrigo - Thanks a million for an *awesome* framework. In a perfect
world we would have time and temper to move things forward
perpetually. Tipfy has enhanced my productivity, made me money, and
made me an awesome developer - I've caught myself laughing at how
straightforward it has been to implement even the most complicated
sites in Tipfy with ease and grace. For the framework's charm and
expert execution, I thank you!

I originally moved to Tipfy from Django, which I moved to from Webapp.
The webapp style just doesn't make as much sense to me, and I would be
happy to work towards keeping Tipfy alive (not only for my own
projects, but also because it's one of the inspiring things I trumpet
about App Engine as a whole).

Please keep me updated, guys... I am also @ github as 'sgammon'.

-sam

[Harendra]

Hi been using tipfy for a month or so, it is frustrating at times due
to lack of
documentation but when it works it works really well. It will be a
pity if this
project gets abandoned. Stuff like auth, sessions are very good in
tipfy and so
is wtforms integration.
I would certainly like the tipfy to continue. Basically if you are
making a framework
as big as tipfy backward compatibility is vital. If all the
documentation in site
worked it would be one of the best documented frameworks.
Perhaps guys with better understanding should help update
documentation.
If required I can pitch in with all I can with my limited knowledge.

[Craig Glennie]

We love Tipfy at my office as well; we're using it as the platform for
all our GAE projects. I can't make any promises but I might be able to
get some resources from here (bynd.com) to help move tipfy forward. A
big win for us would be improving the documentation, as we have new
programmers coming on board trying to pick up tipfy (and often GAE
too).

Let me know if/how I can assist; I can help to write some
documentation too.

[Carlos Eduardo León Franco]

Yes, in my company we use Tipfy too in our new developments. Is important to mantain usefull this framework.

Please count with me to help.

2011/6/30 Craig Glennie <craig....@gmail.com>

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[Kapil Sachdeva]

Hi Rodrigo,

I am also using tipfy as my main framework and would now start contributing to the project.

If you could also point out which repository (googlecode or github) is the most appropriate to fork.

Regards & thanks

Kapil

2011/6/30 Carlos Eduardo León Franco <carlos.eduard...@gmail.com>

[Rodrigo Moraes]

On Jun 29, 5:42 pm, OzzyB wrote:

Hey everybody,

Thanks for the warm replies. :)

> 1) If the problem with Tipfy as it currently stands, is "simply" a
> case of documentation, then we can work on it and sort it out. So if
> the question is having someone "take the lead" and go through and
> rewrite/tweak the documentation, then I would be happy and willing to
> do so and in turn invite others to give input in an open way too.

That would be great.

> I would ask you however to give me some pointers in how to best format
> the text/docs correctly -- are we using Sphinx? Is that the way to go?

Sphinx is the way to go, and a quick start would be to organize the
API documentation - just create sphinx files to document classes and
functions (using autodoc). The tipfy source code is fully documented
in restructured text format already, and so it is ready for Sphinx and
this would be just an organization work.

Once the API is organized, which should not take a lot of time since
the API is already documented in the source, at least we have some
updated docs.

Then narrative docs could be added gradually, and this takes a bit
more time to write. If you wish, documentation could be adapted from
webapp2 -- many things match -- or it could be used as a start point
to define the main topics to be covered (WSGI app, routing, handlers,
request etc).

> etc. I would also assume that adding this well-formatted docs/text to
> the actual source-code would allow us to generate whatever kind of
> html documentation we need... also please remember that I'm not saying
> I'm the best documentation writer in the world, but I *know* English
> and I'm willing to give it a shot if you think that can help us push
> forward.

Relax, any help is welcome and I really appreciate it.

> Now, if the problem (maybe) is "making the switch" from the old 6.x
> version of Tipfy to the new 1.0 release, i.e. in terms of the actual
> online documentation at Tipy.org. Then my suggestion -- eventhough it
> may be unpopular -- is to make a "reset" of all the (online)
> documentation, with the new Tipfy 1.0 docs set as the default.
>
> I would imagine trying to maintain 2 versions of docs with 2 versions
> of the codebase is quite difficult and stressful. I would *like* to
> think that current Tipfy developers would understand this and be
> proficient enough in Python etc. to weather this switch-over.

Agreed. Forget old versions, stick 1.0 to the wall.

> Now, if you really feel that Webapp2 is the way to go for a happier
> future in developing for GAE -- because of it's better routing etc.
> Then I would urge you to consider replacing Werkzeug's Routing with
> Webapp2's (or whatever it is!), and in a sense, create a new and
> improved Tipfy rebuilt ontop of Webapp2.

Armin said he will work on improvements in werkzeug routing, which is
great as it is but lacks behind in domain/subdomain routing. So I'd
suggest to wait for it. The webapp2 routing system has purposely less
features than werkzeug's (werkzeug.routing has the same size of the
whole webapp2), and it is perfectly capable for webapp2 but would be a
loss for tipfy users (and would raise unneeded compatibility
problems).

> 3 (optional) If you are just sick and tired of Tipfy and just want to
> move on, I understand, and I don't think anyone will fault you for it.
> I have seen this "version 2.0 dilemma" before and have even
> experienced it myself, so I hear ya...

Yeah, well, currently tipfy embarrasses me a bit because of the state
of the documentation. I just have little energy to do it myself, and
so I should at least be clear about this to get rid of this
embarrassment and let others join to move forward. I'd be proud again
if this was improved and could help. :)

> In fact I would be happy to buy Tipfy from you, as it is, for $1 --
> because as it stands, even if there are no future updates, I think it
> is a great little project :)

$1? /cry ;)

Please ozzy, talk to others that manifested interest to help, and
reach me on IRC and let's coordinate the documentation effort.

Thanks everybody for the support.

-- rodrigo

[Kyle Finley]

Rodrigo,

Are there any plans to include multi-auth in webapp2_extras? That seems to be the only major thing missing from tipfy.

Thanks,

Kyle

[Rodrigo Moraes]

On Jul 1, 7:56 pm, Kyle Finley wrote:
> Are there any plans to include multi-auth in webapp2_extras? That seems to
> be the only major thing missing from tipfy.

Hi Kyle,

At some point something like that should be added, but no promises for
now.

If/when that is added, I'd like to use external client libraries for
oauth/openid instead of rolling our own.

-- rodrigo

[OzzyB]

To Rodrigo, SamG and *all* supporters,

Just wanted to touch base and thanks for your response.

As per the above, I will start working on new docs and will
keep ya'll posted in due course...

-- Ozzy