Interactive Learning Patterns (or your better term for it)

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Ed Jones

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Jun 16, 2011, 11:01:03 AM6/16/11
to tinygames
Whatever you call them, is there, or can we put here, a good list of
the basic patterns of digital learning activity?

That is, however fancy the game appears, in the end there are a
relative few modes of interaction between the learner and the
knowledge to be gained. True/false is the simplest (Binary choice,
binary feedback). Multiple choice with 3 incorrect and one correct is
the most common.

Is there a name for the pattern underlying Greg's multiples of 3 and 5
quest? Kind of a multiple choice with multiple correct answer
components?

WidgEd's second example of drad-drop matching certainly seems a unique
entry. From the first example, the inline dropdown is surely a new
variant of multiple choice?

And now you begin to see the forking nature of the beast...

I wrote some more about this here, but I haven't found the definitive
research:
http://blog.openhistoryproject.org/2010/10/interactive-learning-patterns-google.html
http://blog.openhistoryproject.org/2010/10/interactive-learning-patterns-ii.html


Thanks,
Ed

widged

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Jun 17, 2011, 9:27:58 AM6/17/11
to tinygames
There have been various education groups how have tried to apply the
idea of design patterns (initially introduced by Alexander in
architecture then used in software development). But not with much
success.

When it comes to simple patterns about matching or multiple choice,
here is an early attempt at writing some:
* http://widged.com/wiki/doku.php?id=en:e-tivities:by-name:matching
* http://widged.com/wiki/doku.php?id=en:e-tivities:by-name:true-false
* http://widged.com/wiki/doku.php?id=en:e-tivities:by-name:multiple-choice

When it comes to literature or resources, the most promising one I am
aware of is:
* Games for learning: a design pattern approach (Workshop) Games for
learning: a design pattern approach --
http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.108.3735. By
the same team, A Design Approach to Research in Technology Enhanced
Mathematics Education -- http://www.telearn.org/open-archive/browse?resource=5700.
They have a website with the patterns-- http://lp.noe-kaleidoscope.org/outcomes/typologies/.

Though it is not declared as having anything to do with online
learning, I like these:
* Mining Montessori Design Patterns --
http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.112.2981. And
their webiste -- http://www.tjleone.com/design_patterns.htm.

Otherwise, there is some literature and resources on patterns for
learning activities. But they rarely go beyond the theoretical /
proposal stage and not very useful in the current context:
* Patterns for Active Learning -- http://csis.pace.edu/~bergin/patterns/ActiveLearningV24.html.
That group set up a website for pedagogical patterns --
http://www.pedagogicalpatterns.org/
* Patterns: Using Proven Experience To Develop Online Learning --
http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.33.5253
* Game-Based Learning Design Patterns: An Approach to Support the
Development of “Better” Educational Games -- http://www.irma-international.org/viewtitle/52493/
* Project based learning scenarios -- http://edutechwiki.unige.ch/en/Catalog_of_simple_scenarios
* Applying and developing patterns in teaching --
http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.132.8572
* Pattern language of group process -- http://grouppatternlanguage.org/wagn/full_map
* A Pattern Language for Course Development in Computer Science --
http://csis.pace.edu/%7Ebergin/patterns/coursepatternlanguage.html.
And the associated website -- http://csis.pace.edu/~bergin/PedPat1.3.html.
* e-Len patterns project -- http://www2.tisip.no/E-LEN/patterns_info.php
* SEMINARS A Pedagogical Pattern Language about teaching seminars
effectively -- http://www.voelter.de/seminars


On Jun 17, 3:01 am, Ed Jones <ed.jo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Whatever you call them, is there, or can we put here, a good list of
> the basic patterns of digital learning activity?
>
> That is, however fancy the game appears, in the end there are a
> relative few modes of interaction between the learner and the
> knowledge to be gained. True/false is the simplest (Binary choice,
> binary feedback). Multiple choice with 3 incorrect and one correct is
> the most common.
>
> Is there a name for the pattern underlying Greg's multiples of 3 and 5
> quest? Kind of a multiple choice with multiple correct answer
> components?
>
> WidgEd's second example of drad-drop matching certainly seems a unique
> entry.  From the first example, the inline dropdown is surely a new
> variant of multiple choice?
>
> And now you begin to see the forking nature of the beast...
>
> I wrote some more about this here, but I haven't found the definitive
> research:http://blog.openhistoryproject.org/2010/10/interactive-learning-patte...http://blog.openhistoryproject.org/2010/10/interactive-learning-patte...
>
> Thanks,
> Ed

Greg DeKoenigsberg

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Jun 17, 2011, 9:51:34 AM6/17/11
to tiny...@googlegroups.com

It's easy to see all this literature and become discouraged.

It's easy to see all of this analysis and think, "wow, I don't
understand even half of this -- how can I make a proper start?"

So I think it's useful to take a survey of these ideas to inform our
own -- but my example is Sal Khan, who put his head down and recorded
one video at a time.

Anyway. For me, the key open question, for right now, today, is this one:

Do we continue with Akihabara, or do we move forward with another framework?

That's what I'm working on today and through the weekend: comparing
and contrasting Aki with the other tools mentioned. I will share
notes as I have them.

--g

widged

unread,
Jun 17, 2011, 11:16:04 AM6/17/11
to tinygames
On Akihabara, I am personally more intersted in (1) environments that
can be personalized. The learner can ask for the content to be played
in different interactives, depending on his preferences and (2) can be
authored by the learner, not just the teacher.

One video at a time. A chunky framework like Akihabara doesn't allow
you to do that. Software like MissionMaker have been around for 5+
years. Yet, their adoption has been very limited. For instance, in NZ,
they ran a pilot in 2007 and dropped it --
http://www.core-ed.org/portfolio/using-game-based-technologies-to-support-learning-mission-maker.
The major issues were : "Of these the technical and infrastructural
issues received most comment, and included experiences with hardware
that was not powerful enough to run the software, difficulties with
having versions to use on their personal laptops at home, lack of
facility for exporting finished products to run-time versions, coping
with version updates that occurred during the pilot and the lack of
ability to import graphics from other applications." A framework like
Akihabara would present similar difficulties.

Waiting for a chance to read your "vision" document. My own
understanding is that if your goal is to encourage more teachers to
look into gaming, then you have to build bridges. Most teachers would
feel lost, not knowing where to start when about to create a game like
that. Make it as easy as possible for them to author their own
content, without having to deal with the technology. Provide key
knowledge they will need to be successful in their new activities. Let
them start with concepts and approaches that they are already familiar
with. Something that could help is a book similar to flash games
university -- http://www.flashgameu.com/ , but for javascript / html5
(you won't see mainstream users invest in html5 before another 2
years), more focused on how to adapt the code to change the content
than how to write the code, and with information about game-based or
game-like learning activities design.

Ed Jones

unread,
Jun 17, 2011, 11:30:51 AM6/17/11
to tinygames
Widged, thanks! Lots of reading.

Greg:
>It's easy to see all this literature and become discouraged.

Yes, indeed. But a quick scan will probably tell what is relevant to
your needs and what is not. Here;s the thing with online learning
games: there are thousands of them. How many actually make learning
more effective? Not so sure. So on the one hand, you're right, try try
until we find something that works. On the other hand, don't spend
time doing what someone already did!

Question: would any of the RPG frameworks allow you to make use of
widgets like widged has listed? If so, that would multiply the options
of the game, while cutting down on development time.

Question: In your multiples of 5's and 3's example, what if I don't
get the concept? What if I try 26 and 19 and 4, and after 5 times
still have not picked the right combination? Does fixing this matter
in the choice of a framework? Or do the type of kids who love RPG not
care about getting such help..i.e. its the repetitive negative
examples that makes the game good for them?

(Since I'm not a rpg player, I don't know if this is relevant but
thought i'd ask.)

ed



On Jun 17, 9:51 am, Greg DeKoenigsberg <greg.dekoenigsb...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 9:27 AM, widged <wid...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> > There have been various education groups how have tried to apply the
> > idea of design patterns (initially introduced by Alexander in
> > architecture then used in software development). But not with much
> > success.
>
> > When it comes to simple patterns about matching or multiple choice,
> > here is an early attempt at writing some:
> > *http://widged.com/wiki/doku.php?id=en:e-tivities:by-name:matching
> > *http://widged.com/wiki/doku.php?id=en:e-tivities:by-name:true-false
> > *http://widged.com/wiki/doku.php?id=en:e-tivities:by-name:multiple-choice
>
> > When it comes to literature or resources, the most promising one I am
> > aware of is:
> > * Games for learning: a design pattern approach (Workshop) Games for
> > learning: a design pattern approach --
> >http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.108.3735. By
> > the same team, A Design Approach to Research in Technology Enhanced
> > Mathematics Education --http://www.telearn.org/open-archive/browse?resource=5700.
> > They have a website with the patterns--  http://lp.noe-kaleidoscope.org/outcomes/typologies/.
>
> > Though it is not declared as having anything to do with online
> > learning, I like these:
> > * Mining Montessori Design Patterns --
> >http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.112.2981. And
> > their webiste --http://www.tjleone.com/design_patterns.htm.
>
> > Otherwise, there is some literature and resources on patterns for
> > learning activities. But they rarely go beyond the theoretical /
> > proposal stage and not very useful in the current context:
> > * Patterns for Active Learning --http://csis.pace.edu/~bergin/patterns/ActiveLearningV24.html.
> > That group set up a website for pedagogical patterns --
> >http://www.pedagogicalpatterns.org/
> > * Patterns: Using Proven Experience To Develop Online Learning --
> >http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.33.5253
> > * Game-Based Learning Design Patterns: An Approach to Support the
> > Development of “Better” Educational Games --http://www.irma-international.org/viewtitle/52493/
> > * Project based learning scenarios --http://edutechwiki.unige.ch/en/Catalog_of_simple_scenarios
> > * Applying and developing patterns in teaching --
> >http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.132.8572
> > * Pattern language of group process --http://grouppatternlanguage.org/wagn/full_map
> > * A Pattern Language for Course Development in Computer Science --
> >http://csis.pace.edu/%7Ebergin/patterns/coursepatternlanguage.html.
> > And the associated website --http://csis.pace.edu/~bergin/PedPat1.3.html.
> > * e-Len patterns project --http://www2.tisip.no/E-LEN/patterns_info.php
> > * SEMINARS A Pedagogical Pattern Language about teaching seminars
> > effectively --http://www.voelter.de/seminars

widged

unread,
Jun 17, 2011, 11:31:01 AM6/17/11
to tinygames
Ed, on the forking nature of the beast. The problem is that it gets
even worse when you combine a pedagogical goal with a game-based or
game-like environments. So you need to be aware of patterns in
education and patterns in gaming.

If you are foolish enough to try and gain some knowledge on game play
design, you are faced with a sea of information... and you just feel
you are gonna drown in it. The challenge really is to provide pathways
that provide quicker and easier access.

As a person who went from a lecturing role to a software developer
one, I am only too aware that you cannot be expert at both pedagogy
and code writing. That's very different types of knowledge that
requires different types of thinking, different roles, a presence in
different communities. As you gain expertise in one area, you tend to
loose some in the other, out of lack of practice. You need to
consider team work. Collaborations between persons who choose to
specialize in different areas. Development of a language that supports
efficient communication between them.

That's what design patterns are supposed to do. But there are too many
of them to be any useful to educators. You can get some idea of the
breadth and depth of resources availableGamePlay Design Patterns
resources with these resources:
* Game Design -- http://gamification.org/wiki/Game_Design
* Game Mechanics -- http://gamification.org/wiki/Game_Mechanics
* GamePlay Design Patterns -- http://62.142.53.59/daisy/patterns/3-DSY.html
* Simple but proven game mechanics --
http://www.36peas.com/blog/2010/11/3/7-simple-but-proven-game-mechanics-to-prepare-you-for-the-36.html
* Describing Games - An Interaction-Centric Structural Framework --
http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.6.1968
* Mapping the Mental Space of Game Genres --
http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.110.3009
* Gamestar mechanics challenge cards --
https://sites.google.com/a/elinemedia.com/gsmlearningguide/online-learning-guide-resources/more-lessons/challenge-cards
* The 13 Basic Principles of Gameplay Design --
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/3949/the_13_basic_principles_of_.php
* Towards a classification of video games --
http://dams.cv.free.fr/files/articles/%5Baisb07%5D_towards_a_classification_of_videogames.pdf.
And their websites: Game classification -- http://www.gameclassification.com/

There also are aplenty great articles on achievement / reward
systems :
* gamestudies -- http://gamestudies.org/1101
* Achievement Design 101 @Gamasutra --
http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/GregMcClanahan/20091202/3709/Achievement_Design_101.php
* Soapbox: Learning to Play to Learn - Lessons in Educational Game
Design -- http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/2273/soapbox_learning_to_play_to_learn_.php
* Can a college class be a game --
http://teethandclaws.blogspot.com/2010/03/can-college-class-be-game.html.
Also Gaming the classroom -- http://gamingtheclassroom.wordpress.com/syllabus/
and build your own Sheldon syllabus --
http://terranova.blogs.com/terra_nova/2010/03/build-your-own-sheldon-syllabus.html.
* Reward Systems, An Excerpt From Level Design: Concept, Theory, and
Practice -- http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/5874/reward_systems_an_excerpt_from_.php
* The Reward series, part 1: The basics of reward --
http://www.casualgamedesign.com/?p=42
* 8 Ways FarmVille Designs for Engagement --
http://www.philmichaelson.com/user-generated-content/8-design-tactics-farmville/
* How can we use concepts from online games to change education? --
http://www.quora.com/How-can-we-use-concepts-from-online-games-to-change-education
* Designing Rewards in Games -- http://onlyagame.typepad.com/only_a_game/2005/08/designing_rewar.html
* Creating the illusion of accomplishment --
http://blog.wolfire.com/2009/07/creating-the-illusion-of-accomplishment/

Greg DeKoenigsberg

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Jun 17, 2011, 11:37:12 AM6/17/11
to tiny...@googlegroups.com
On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 11:30 AM, Ed Jones <ed.j...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Widged, thanks! Lots of reading.
>
> Greg:
>>It's easy to see all this literature and become discouraged.
>
> Yes, indeed. But a quick scan will probably tell what is relevant to
> your needs and what is not. Here;s the thing with online learning
> games: there are thousands of them. How many actually make learning
> more effective? Not so sure. So on the one hand, you're right, try try
> until we find something that works. On the other hand, don't spend
> time doing what someone already did!

How many of them allow users to edit the source?

Not very many. In the Flash era, almost none. That's the opportunity.

> Question: would any of the RPG frameworks allow you to make use of
> widgets like widged has listed? If so, that would multiply the options
> of the game, while cutting down on development time.

Maybe, maybe not. Don't know yet. I think a key goal is to have
mechanisms to separate content from presentation, and in-game widgets
that can drop in content from anywhere. Puzzle libraries that take
question-bank data and transmogrify it into fun puzzles in the gaming
environment.

> Question: In your multiples of 5's and 3's example, what if I don't
> get the concept? What if I try 26 and 19 and 4, and after 5 times
> still have not picked the right combination? Does fixing this matter
> in the choice of a framework? Or do the type of kids who love RPG not
> care about getting such help..i.e. its the repetitive negative
> examples that makes the game good for them?

It's a good question.

One potential long-term advantage: instrumentation and sending data to
the backend. "Does this puzzle just suck? Do most players get it
wrong? How long does it take for a player to get it right?"

My sense, though, from watching kids play a lot of games: assuming
it's not so impossibly hard that they shut down, they'll keep trying
until they get it right, especially if getting it right stands between
them and completion of their quest.

--g

Greg DeKoenigsberg

unread,
Jun 17, 2011, 11:50:00 AM6/17/11
to tiny...@googlegroups.com
> One video at a time.  A chunky framework like Akihabara doesn't allow
> you to do that.

Sure it does. If I get the time to focus, I can turn around a
perfectly playable, self-contained, useful game in a week. If I find
10 people like me, that's 2 new games a day. :)

> Software like MissionMaker have been around for 5+
> years. Yet, their adoption has been very limited. For instance, in NZ,
> they ran a pilot in 2007 and dropped it --
> http://www.core-ed.org/portfolio/using-game-based-technologies-to-support-learning-mission-maker.

So we'll try again. :)

Also: MISSION MAKER COSTS MONEY.

I can't overstate the importance of a development environment that's
open. It means that your potential development audience is "anyone
who's interested in playing around with it", not "anyone who's
interested enough to spend money."

> The major issues were : "Of these the technical and infrastructural
> issues received most comment, and included experiences with hardware
> that was not powerful enough to run the software, difficulties with
> having versions to use on their personal laptops at home, lack of
> facility for exporting finished products to run-time versions, coping
> with version updates that occurred during the pilot and the lack of
> ability to import graphics from other applications." A framework like
> Akihabara would present similar difficulties.

Well, let's see.

* "Difficulty running on personal laptops." It's HTML5. Early
adopters can all run HTML5, and we can safely assume that everyone on
earth with a computing device will catch up.

* "Lack of facility for exporting finished products to run-time
versions." Yes, we'd need an uploader for participants, but the fact
that it's all just HTML5+JS, and can actually run on a local computer
practically identically to how it runs on a server, is a potentially
significant advantage.

* "Coping with version updates." Yes, this is potentially a painful
problem. Always.

> Waiting for a chance to read your "vision" document. My own
> understanding is that if your goal is to encourage more teachers to
> look into gaming, then you have to build bridges.

No. No, it's not. My goal is to *write some games*, and then
encourage people to *play the games*, and make it as easy as possible
for people to say "gee, I wish the game would do this." And then have
a bunch of people who can say, "yes, we can do that!" Or "no, we
can't do that yet."

To the degree that the teachers play the games and say "do this not
that," then getting teachers on board will be a big win. We don't
have to make them coders to make them useful participants.

> Most teachers would
> feel lost, not knowing where to start when about to create a game like
> that. Make it as easy as possible for them to author their own
> content, without having to deal with the technology. Provide key
> knowledge they will need to be successful in their new activities. Let
> them start with concepts and approaches that they are already familiar
> with. Something that could help is a book similar to flash games
> university -- http://www.flashgameu.com/ , but for javascript / html5
> (you won't see mainstream users invest in html5 before another 2
> years), more focused on how to adapt the code to change the content
> than how to write the code, and with information about game-based or
> game-like learning activities design.

What you say all makes sense. To me, though, the key problem is
sprinting to get some open games that illustrate the core concepts:

* Free to edit any way you like, the open source way;

* Crazy cross-platform;

* Small enough to make that editing a non-impossible task for someone
with moderate coding skill;

* Aligned to bite-sized curriculum pieces;

* Fun and based on the notion of "levelling up".

I think Akihabara is good enough for this. It's not the only tool,
and it may not even be the best tool. But it's certainly good enough
to get started -- and the time to get started, for me, is right now.

Ed Jones

unread,
Jun 17, 2011, 11:51:32 AM6/17/11
to tinygames
>you cannot be expert at both pedagogy and code writing.

lol, ...and running a business, and keeping the systems running,
and.... :-) (Especially when the programming environment changes
monthly.)

For me, I do have a focusing tool. It's very different from Greg's,
but it does limit my applicable choices. It's "What potentially
contributes to public school Assessability?"

IE, what patterns are transparent enough that they have a hope of
helping demonstrate that a child actually is learning what she's
supposed to?

In that sense, an RPG (for the foreseeable future) parallels a video:
its a learning tool, but not a candidate for assessment. Whereas, an
online multiple choice, true-false, fill-in-the-blank has hoops to get
through, but directly maps to a paper-and-pencil tool, so its future
is probable.

My interest then is in the sphere of patterns which have a near-term
hope of joining with the old standbys.

ed



On Jun 17, 11:31 am, widged <wid...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Ed, on the forking nature of the beast. The problem is that it gets
> even worse when you combine a pedagogical goal with a game-based or
> game-like environments. So you need to be aware of patterns in
> education and patterns in gaming.
>
> If you are foolish enough to try and gain some knowledge on game play
> design, you are faced with a sea of information... and you just feel
> you are gonna drown in it. The challenge really is to provide pathways
> that provide quicker and easier access.
>
> As a person who went from a lecturing role to a software developer
> one, I am only too aware that you cannot be expert at both pedagogy
> and code writing. That's very different types of knowledge that
> requires different types of thinking, different roles, a presence in
> different communities. As you gain expertise in one area, you tend to
> loose some in the other, out of lack of practice.  You need to
> consider team work. Collaborations between persons who choose to
> specialize in different areas. Development of a language that supports
> efficient communication between them.
>
> That's what design patterns are supposed to do. But there are too many
> of them to be any useful to educators. You can get some idea of the
> breadth and depth of resources availableGamePlay Design Patterns
> resources with these resources:
> * Game Design --http://gamification.org/wiki/Game_Design
> * Game Mechanics --http://gamification.org/wiki/Game_Mechanics
> * GamePlay Design Patterns --http://62.142.53.59/daisy/patterns/3-DSY.html
> * Simple but proven game mechanics --http://www.36peas.com/blog/2010/11/3/7-simple-but-proven-game-mechani...
> * Describing Games - An Interaction-Centric Structural Framework  --http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.6.1968
> * Mapping the Mental Space of Game Genres --http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.110.3009
> * Gamestar mechanics challenge cards --https://sites.google.com/a/elinemedia.com/gsmlearningguide/online-lea...
> * The 13 Basic Principles of Gameplay Design --http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/3949/the_13_basic_principles_of...
> * Towards a classification of video games --http://dams.cv.free.fr/files/articles/%5Baisb07%5D_towards_a_classifi....
> And their websites: Game classification --http://www.gameclassification.com/
>
> There also are aplenty great articles on achievement / reward
> systems :
> * gamestudies --http://gamestudies.org/1101
> * Achievement Design 101 @Gamasutra  --http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/GregMcClanahan/20091202/3709/Achieveme...
> * Soapbox: Learning to Play to Learn - Lessons in Educational Game
> Design --http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/2273/soapbox_learning_to_play_t...
> * Can a college class be a game --http://teethandclaws.blogspot.com/2010/03/can-college-class-be-game.html.
> Also Gaming the classroom --http://gamingtheclassroom.wordpress.com/syllabus/
> and build your own Sheldon syllabus --http://terranova.blogs.com/terra_nova/2010/03/build-your-own-sheldon-....
> * Reward Systems, An Excerpt From Level Design: Concept, Theory, and
> Practice --http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/5874/reward_systems_an_excerpt_...
> * The Reward series, part 1: The basics of reward --http://www.casualgamedesign.com/?p=42
> * 8 Ways FarmVille Designs for Engagement --http://www.philmichaelson.com/user-generated-content/8-design-tactics...
> * How can we use concepts from online games to change education? --http://www.quora.com/How-can-we-use-concepts-from-online-games-to-cha...
> * Designing Rewards in Games --http://onlyagame.typepad.com/only_a_game/2005/08/designing_rewar.html

Greg DeKoenigsberg

unread,
Jun 17, 2011, 12:01:06 PM6/17/11
to tiny...@googlegroups.com
On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 11:51 AM, Ed Jones <ed.j...@gmail.com> wrote:

> For me, I do have a focusing tool. It's very different from Greg's,
> but it does limit my applicable choices. It's "What potentially
> contributes to public school Assessability?"
>
> IE, what patterns are transparent enough that they have a hope of
> helping demonstrate that a child actually is learning what she's
> supposed to?
>
> In that sense, an RPG (for the foreseeable future) parallels a video:
> its a learning tool, but not a candidate for assessment. Whereas, an
> online multiple choice, true-false, fill-in-the-blank has hoops to get
> through, but directly maps to a paper-and-pencil tool, so its future
> is probable.

Oh, I completely disagree. It's an excellent candidate for precisely
that kind of assessment, and I'm shocked that no one has figured that
out yet.

Why could a game not involve a "boss puzzle," wherein Our Intrepid
Adventurer must negotiate a series of rooms that ask questions, and
those questions are drawn from massive open assessment banks?

Answer wrong, BOOM! Lightning bolt hits you, -1 health! Your health
at the end is directly comparable to a score on a test. In fact, one
can go so far as imagining submitting the score data to a Moodle
server. But it feels *completely different*.

Will schools accept this metaphor? Until examples exist in a way that
is tangible to them, how can they?

> My interest then is in the sphere of patterns which have a near-term
> hope of joining with the old standbys.

I suspect we're not as far apart as you think.

--g

tdxdave

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Jun 17, 2011, 12:08:02 PM6/17/11
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On Jun 17, 12:01 pm, Greg DeKoenigsberg <greg.dekoenigsb...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 11:51 AM, Ed Jones <ed.jo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > For me, I do have a focusing tool. It's very different from Greg's,
> > but it does limit my applicable choices. It's "What potentially
> > contributes to public school Assessability?"
>
> > IE, what patterns are transparent enough that they have a hope of
> > helping demonstrate that a child actually is learning what she's
> > supposed to?
>
> > In that sense, an RPG (for the foreseeable future) parallels a video:
> > its a learning tool, but not a candidate for assessment. Whereas, an
> > online multiple choice, true-false, fill-in-the-blank has hoops to get
> > through, but directly maps to a paper-and-pencil tool, so its future
> > is probable.
>
> Oh, I completely disagree.  It's an excellent candidate for precisely
> that kind of assessment, and I'm shocked that no one has figured that
> out yet.
>

e-Adventure is a research project that uses some RPG-like features to
build games that include assessment.

http://e-adventure.e-ucm.es/

This is an open source java-based platform. I suspect some of the
concepts might be usable in an HTML5/JS world, which clearly is going
to be more portable, and, I think, easier to work with.

Dave

Ed Jones

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Jun 17, 2011, 12:18:30 PM6/17/11
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You may be right...not sure what the percentage of current teachers
who are RPG players is. This would make it more palatable to the
profession, if not the public at large. Of course it's not just
schools who have to be sold...

I was basing this thought on the observation that I've had online
stock and banking accounts for 12+ years, but multiple choice
assessments for schools are still done on paper, with the questions,
answers, and scoring processes enduring unending national debates.


ed



On Jun 17, 12:01 pm, Greg DeKoenigsberg <greg.dekoenigsb...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Greg DeKoenigsberg

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Jun 17, 2011, 12:27:52 PM6/17/11
to tiny...@googlegroups.com
On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 12:18 PM, Ed Jones <ed.j...@gmail.com> wrote:
> You may be right...not sure what the percentage of current teachers
> who are RPG players is. This would make it more palatable to the
> profession, if not the public at large. Of course it's not just
> schools who have to be sold...
>
> I was basing this thought on the observation that I've had online
> stock and banking accounts for 12+ years, but multiple choice
> assessments for schools are still done on paper, with the questions,
> answers, and scoring processes enduring unending national debates.

LOL.

So this is the difference between what I call "low-stakes assessment"
and "high-stakes assessment". And school systems are so obsessed with
"high-stakes assessment" (will our scores go up? Will we get funded?
Will I keep my job?") that they have absolutely no incentive to pay
attention to "low-stakes assessment" (did the kid learn something?)

I want to avoid the "high-stakes assessment" discussion for as long as
possible. I can see it from here, but I'm not willing to deal with
the moat and the piranhas and the quicksand. Yet. But the low-stakes
assessment -- which really serves as a mechanism to unlock the kid's
next quest -- is absolutely at the heart of what I think we should be
doing here.

--g

Ed Jones

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Jun 17, 2011, 2:43:55 PM6/17/11
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Yeah, what u said. And, yet, part of the urgency is the congealing
national consensus around national tests...which present no end of
problems for both learning and democracy.

A near-term link between high-stakes and low-stakes may be in the
"Credit Flexibility" laws of states like Ohio. In Ohio, any highly
qualified teacher can approve a student's request for credit based on
independent activities.

Which is all very meta-, and applying to HS anyway, but stuff to
consider on down the line.

Happy weekend!

Ed



On Jun 17, 12:27 pm, Greg DeKoenigsberg <greg.dekoenigsb...@gmail.com>
wrote:

widged

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Jun 18, 2011, 9:22:56 AM6/18/11
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>One potential long-term advantage: instrumentation and sending data to
>the backend. "Does this puzzle just suck? Do most players get it
>wrong? How long does it take for a player to get it right?"

You can actually use google forms and google spreadsheets to store
your data. I provided a quick example of how this can be done:
http://jsdo.it/widged/leaderboard_gsheet. So, yes, with this type of
solution, you can drop content from anywhere. It doesn't necessarily
need to be defined in the back-end.

I will add a rating adapter as well. 1-5 stars. Could be used for the
user give feedback on the activities they like most.

On the kid not getting it after 5 times, you may want to look into the
concept of adaptive system. The questions adapt to the user level. If
the user does well, more difficult questions are presented. If he does
badly, easier ones.

How many games actually make learning more effective? This
presentation on evaluating educational games gives some insight:
http://www.slideshare.net/becker/magic-bullet-talkqueens2

widged

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Jun 18, 2011, 9:44:08 AM6/18/11
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> To the degree that the teachers play the games and say "do this not
> that," then getting teachers on board will be a big win.  We don't
> have to make them coders to make them useful participants.

Not expect them to turn into coders. Give them the ability to edit the
content. At least edit the problems that are presented to the
learners.

There is no real difference between a paid iphone app and your open
source RPG if users don't have the option to modify the content. It's
open in theory but closed in practice.

> * Aligned to bite-sized curriculum pieces;

Can you easily open a window with custom content in Akihabara or
temporarily replace the game screen by a custom screen, one out of the
RPG logic? It really is not unusual in games to have a different
screen layout for fights and challenges. That would give more
flexibility than having to step on tiles to mark answers.

You can then isolate activities from game genre. To use always the
same RPG format is likely to be boring. Expressing problems in a way
that they can be played in different interactives is a plus. If you
isolate activities from game genres, you can then more easily
integrate activities from other projects, like the Khan exercises --
https://github.com/Khan/khan-exercises

Greg DeKoenigsberg

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Jun 18, 2011, 9:51:24 AM6/18/11
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On Sat, Jun 18, 2011 at 9:44 AM, widged <wid...@googlemail.com> wrote:

> There is no real difference between a paid iphone app and your open
> source RPG if users don't have the option to modify the content.  It's
> open in theory but closed in practice.

Yes, completely agreed about this. If we can't ultimately present a
simplified interface for "adding quiz questions" or "adding a room
where a smart NPC presents content X," then we're doing it wrong.
We'll get there, but we've got some other things to do first.

>> * Aligned to bite-sized curriculum pieces;
>
> Can you easily open a window with custom content in Akihabara or
> temporarily replace the game screen by a custom screen, one out of the
> RPG logic? It really is not unusual in games to have a different
> screen layout for fights and challenges. That would give more
> flexibility than having to step on tiles to mark answers.

There are a lot of Aki forks on Github that are doing this: using
jQuery to pop up modal windows. I really need to look into this, from
a number of gameplay perspectives:

* Creating a shop to allow the character to buy things.
* Presenting a popup video to a player.
* Incorporating widgeds into the gameplay experience. :)

> You can then isolate activities from game genre. To use always the
> same RPG format is likely to be boring. Expressing problems in a way
> that they can be played in different interactives is a plus. If you
> isolate activities from game genres, you can then more easily
> integrate activities from other projects, like the Khan exercises --
> https://github.com/Khan/khan-exercises

Yes, I agree with this, to some degree.

For me, the central question that trumps all other questions: How
easily can you fit element X -- whether X be an instructional video,
or a game element, or something I haven't yet imagined -- into the
narrative structure? Because that's where RPGs absolutely excel: in
their ability to place a character into an immersive narrative.

--g

widged

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Jun 18, 2011, 9:59:46 AM6/18/11
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Good point Dave. I remember reading a paper on e-adventure integration
in LAMS
http://lams2010sydney.lamsfoundation.org/pdfs/papers/05_Blanco_Final.pdf
or with IMS (which is a standard for coding traditional assignments
types like MCQ and fill the gap exercises)
http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.140.4519

Definitely something to check out.
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