(off topic) Another CAS and two.
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Joe
Oct 29, 2009, 10:24:28 PM10/29/09
to tinspire
Those of you who provide your students with a well rounded exposure to
math technology will want Pocket Cas (pro) if you have an iphone. Go
to http://pocketcas.com/iphone/ or down load it from itunes. From the
first source it is priced at $1.99. I hear it is less from iTunes and
this is NOT a cheap 4 function calculator program. It uses a math
software developed by B. Parisse, and when I tried it on a friends
iphone, I found that it not only does algebra but calculus and linear
algebra as well. I don't know why it is priced so low but who cares.
That is a lot of math capability for just pennies.
I can remember when just having one affordable cas for a laptop would
have been great. Now there are many great options and having only one
math program to work with seems like a thing of the past.
Another bargin is the new Space times 4.0 version at a limited time
introductory price. I think I paid about 60 dollars and the 3-D
graphing among other things is awesome. I put it on my new netbook
computer and use it as a compliment to my TI windows cas program.
P.S. It's not just better than sliced bread, its better than sliced
rye bread (my favorite). I love it.
math technology will want Pocket Cas (pro) if you have an iphone. Go
to http://pocketcas.com/iphone/ or down load it from itunes. From the
first source it is priced at $1.99. I hear it is less from iTunes and
this is NOT a cheap 4 function calculator program. It uses a math
software developed by B. Parisse, and when I tried it on a friends
iphone, I found that it not only does algebra but calculus and linear
algebra as well. I don't know why it is priced so low but who cares.
That is a lot of math capability for just pennies.
I can remember when just having one affordable cas for a laptop would
have been great. Now there are many great options and having only one
math program to work with seems like a thing of the past.
Another bargin is the new Space times 4.0 version at a limited time
introductory price. I think I paid about 60 dollars and the 3-D
graphing among other things is awesome. I put it on my new netbook
computer and use it as a compliment to my TI windows cas program.
P.S. It's not just better than sliced bread, its better than sliced
rye bread (my favorite). I love it.
Nelson Sousa
Oct 30, 2009, 10:08:02 AM10/30/09
to tins...@googlegroups.com
Very interesting app and the price is unbeatable!
Thanks Joe.
Nelson
Thanks Joe.
Nelson
Joe
Oct 30, 2009, 7:21:06 PM10/30/09
to tinspire
You are welcome Nelson.
Joe
On Oct 30, 7:08 am, Nelson Sousa <nso...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Very interesting app and the price is unbeatable!
> Thanks Joe.
>
> Nelson
>
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 02:24, Joe <wjb...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Those of you who provide your students with a well rounded exposure to
> > math technology will want Pocket Cas (pro) if you have an iphone. Go
> > tohttp://pocketcas.com/iphone/or down load it from itunes. From the
>
> - Show quoted text -
Joe
On Oct 30, 7:08 am, Nelson Sousa <nso...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Very interesting app and the price is unbeatable!
> Thanks Joe.
>
> Nelson
>
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 02:24, Joe <wjb...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Those of you who provide your students with a well rounded exposure to
> > math technology will want Pocket Cas (pro) if you have an iphone. Go
> > first source it is priced at $1.99. I hear it is less from iTunes and
> > this is NOT a cheap 4 function calculator program. It uses a math
> > software developed by B. Parisse, and when I tried it on a friends
> > iphone, I found that it not only does algebra but calculus and linear
> > algebra as well. I don't know why it is priced so low but who cares.
> > That is a lot of math capability for just pennies.
>
> > I can remember when just having one affordable cas for a laptop would
> > have been great. Now there are many great options and having only one
> > math program to work with seems like a thing of the past.
>
> > Another bargin is the new Space times 4.0 version at a limited time
> > introductory price. I think I paid about 60 dollars and the 3-D
> > graphing among other things is awesome. I put it on my new netbook
> > computer and use it as a compliment to my TI windows cas program.
> > P.S. It's not just better than sliced bread, its better than sliced
> > rye bread (my favorite). I love it.- Hide quoted text -
> > this is NOT a cheap 4 function calculator program. It uses a math
> > software developed by B. Parisse, and when I tried it on a friends
> > iphone, I found that it not only does algebra but calculus and linear
> > algebra as well. I don't know why it is priced so low but who cares.
> > That is a lot of math capability for just pennies.
>
> > I can remember when just having one affordable cas for a laptop would
> > have been great. Now there are many great options and having only one
> > math program to work with seems like a thing of the past.
>
> > Another bargin is the new Space times 4.0 version at a limited time
> > introductory price. I think I paid about 60 dollars and the 3-D
> > graphing among other things is awesome. I put it on my new netbook
> > computer and use it as a compliment to my TI windows cas program.
> > P.S. It's not just better than sliced bread, its better than sliced
>
> - Show quoted text -
fhub
Oct 31, 2009, 9:33:24 AM10/31/09
to tinspire
Regarding SpaceTime I can't agree at all - that's nothing else than a
nice toy, but definitely not a CAS!
Ok, it has some nice graphic capabilities, BUT: in about 50% of the
mathematical problems it simply fails (e.g. try to solve y=x/(x-1) for
x, an easy task for every 15 years old pupil), and in many of the
remaining 50% it gives just wrong results!
And if you post such horrible mathematical bugs on their forum, these
postings are removed within a few hours!
Joe schrieb:
nice toy, but definitely not a CAS!
Ok, it has some nice graphic capabilities, BUT: in about 50% of the
mathematical problems it simply fails (e.g. try to solve y=x/(x-1) for
x, an easy task for every 15 years old pupil), and in many of the
remaining 50% it gives just wrong results!
And if you post such horrible mathematical bugs on their forum, these
postings are removed within a few hours!
Joe schrieb:
Joe
Nov 1, 2009, 4:03:56 PM11/1/09
to tinspire
HI Joe Schrieb,
As I indicated above, I put spacetime on my new netbook computer and
use it as a compliment to my TI windows cas program. I am an
experienced user of the TI cas syntax because of over a decade of
using TI products so I never use the spacetime "solve" function but
thanks for pointing out the problem with solve(y=x/(x-1),x). If you
go to www.spacetime.us and to the support forum there, you will notice
that Spacetime has confirmed that bug, indicated that the problem can
be solved in the slightly different form of solve(y*(x-1)=x,x), and
that they have committed to correcting that bug with the next update.
You will also notice that the problem was posted some time ago and has
definitely been on the site more than a few hours. So my question
is: What more can we expect them to do? Theirs is a fairly new cas
and has as you noted "some nice graphic capabilities." In my opinon,
those graphic capablilities alone are worth the price of the space
time program, and the spacetime 3-D capability is far superior to that
of the TI-nspire products or for that matter any of the TI
products.
Without making excuses for Spacetime, I must admit that I would never
use a cas to solve y=x/(x-1) for x, but I do prefer their approach of
admiting to a bug and committing to fixing it, which I find refreshing
compared to being ignored by TI. What bug has TI ever committed to
fixing? None that I am aware of. Also, with the evolvement from the
TI89/v200 to the nspire prodcts, TI has taken a step backward in 3-d
graphing capability and that alone makes having the spacetime program
valuable.
P.S. We live in a 3-d world so be sure and demonstrate some 3-d
surfaces to your students using your nspire.
Just another joe.
As I indicated above, I put spacetime on my new netbook computer and
use it as a compliment to my TI windows cas program. I am an
experienced user of the TI cas syntax because of over a decade of
using TI products so I never use the spacetime "solve" function but
thanks for pointing out the problem with solve(y=x/(x-1),x). If you
go to www.spacetime.us and to the support forum there, you will notice
that Spacetime has confirmed that bug, indicated that the problem can
be solved in the slightly different form of solve(y*(x-1)=x,x), and
that they have committed to correcting that bug with the next update.
You will also notice that the problem was posted some time ago and has
definitely been on the site more than a few hours. So my question
is: What more can we expect them to do? Theirs is a fairly new cas
and has as you noted "some nice graphic capabilities." In my opinon,
those graphic capablilities alone are worth the price of the space
time program, and the spacetime 3-D capability is far superior to that
of the TI-nspire products or for that matter any of the TI
products.
Without making excuses for Spacetime, I must admit that I would never
use a cas to solve y=x/(x-1) for x, but I do prefer their approach of
admiting to a bug and committing to fixing it, which I find refreshing
compared to being ignored by TI. What bug has TI ever committed to
fixing? None that I am aware of. Also, with the evolvement from the
TI89/v200 to the nspire prodcts, TI has taken a step backward in 3-d
graphing capability and that alone makes having the spacetime program
valuable.
P.S. We live in a 3-d world so be sure and demonstrate some 3-d
surfaces to your students using your nspire.
Just another joe.
elkar
Nov 1, 2009, 5:23:00 PM11/1/09
to tinspire
another Math Software
http://en.smath.info/forum/default.aspx?g=posts&t=243
http://en.smath.info/forum/default.aspx?g=posts&t=243
Michael Ball
Nov 2, 2009, 1:26:00 AM11/2/09
to tinspire
Wow, PocketCas looks awesome. And $2 isn't bad! I'll definitely be
trying that out. :)
And, since we're on the subject of iPhone apps, I hope no one minds a
shameless plug for Quad Solver. I wrote it during the summer, and have
kept adding things that it does to a quadratic equation. I think I
might have it do the derivative in the next version for the heck of
it. :) This happens when I find calc to slow.
On Oct 29, 6:24 pm, Joe <wjb...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Those of you who provide your students with a well rounded exposure to
> math technology will want Pocket Cas (pro) if you have an iphone. Go
> tohttp://pocketcas.com/iphone/or down load it from itunes. From the
trying that out. :)
And, since we're on the subject of iPhone apps, I hope no one minds a
shameless plug for Quad Solver. I wrote it during the summer, and have
kept adding things that it does to a quadratic equation. I think I
might have it do the derivative in the next version for the heck of
it. :) This happens when I find calc to slow.
On Oct 29, 6:24 pm, Joe <wjb...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Those of you who provide your students with a well rounded exposure to
> math technology will want Pocket Cas (pro) if you have an iphone. Go
fhub
Nov 2, 2009, 5:35:42 AM11/2/09
to tinspire
Hi Joe,
> You will also notice that the problem was posted some time ago and has definitely been on the site more than a few hours.
well, but you don't see my 3 postings (within 3 days) anymore because
they were deleted quite quickly!
>I would never use a cas to solve y=x/(x-1) for x
Sorry, but what a stupid argument!
Of course I too won't need a CAS for that, but how could you ever
trust a CAS in more complicated calculations when it can't even solve
correctly such simple problems.
And since you mention their forum: well, then read through the
postings and you'll see HOW MANY errors this Spacetime makes in many
different areas.
Joe schrieb:
> You will also notice that the problem was posted some time ago and has definitely been on the site more than a few hours.
they were deleted quite quickly!
>I would never use a cas to solve y=x/(x-1) for x
Of course I too won't need a CAS for that, but how could you ever
trust a CAS in more complicated calculations when it can't even solve
correctly such simple problems.
And since you mention their forum: well, then read through the
postings and you'll see HOW MANY errors this Spacetime makes in many
different areas.
Joe schrieb:
Joe
Nov 2, 2009, 3:53:15 PM11/2/09
to tinspire
Many thanks elkar! Wow, another cas! If anyone has any experience
with SMath, what is that program's strengths? I notice for example
that there is 3-d graphing, and I wonder if one can plot mulitple 3-d
surfaces.
Several years ago, the future of math technology looked very bleak.
At that time you had the choice of using cas's from the big three (TI,
Hp, and Casio) or the prohibitively expensive (at that time) Maple or
Mathematica, and while the last two were constantly innovating, the
first three were not. The Hp 50 was introduced with few changes from
the previous model, and the tinspire series was very disappointing for
those who took the time to generate a list of functions they would
like to see in the new nspire design. At the same time Casio was
sticking with it's touch screen class pad and ignoring the hue and cry
for a dedicated math keyboard.
That was then and this is now, and with the promising new and
inexpensive cas's that have been identified along with probably a few
more that we don't know about, surely we are in the middle of a math
technology revolution! Yes, the new cas producers need to do some
debugging and that is taking place and their products will soon mature
and updates to the next versions are free. I remember the speculation
on the TI site (that they eliminated), shortly after nspire was
introduced, that because TI hasn't designed a next generation "math"
machine, surely someone else will, and now we are in the middle that
transition, from being a user of a single math program on a hand held
that does nothing else, to having a very portable PC with multiple
math tools/programs on it. Exciting. Very exciting indeed!
One more point I want to make is on the impact that the new netbook
computers will have on the calculator world in general. These small,
very portable, and very inexpensive computers with their quick boot
up, make having a dedicated hand held for math unnesessary and
undesirable. Look at it this way. The iphone had and still has a
huge impact on the cell phone world. In a similiar fashion the
netbook computer will revolutionize the calculator world. Why?
Because what the netbook computer has in common with the iphone is
that they are both very very superior devices that go way beyond what
is minimally necessary.
So what does this all mean to you? Well, if you are burned out from
the three T's (teaching trivia to teenagers) probably nothing. On the
other hand if you still have a passion for math, it means that this is
an exciting time. With a revolution in math technology taking place,
the best is yet to come.
P.S. You are going to like demonstrating math technology to your
students on your new netbook's color screen using one of three or four
math programs that you down loaded, and your students are going to be
fasinated and impressed by that really cool little computer.
Joe
On Nov 1, 2:23 pm, elkar <elkinarbel...@gmail.com> wrote:
> another Math Softwarehttp://en.smath.info/forum/default.aspx?g=posts&t=243
with SMath, what is that program's strengths? I notice for example
that there is 3-d graphing, and I wonder if one can plot mulitple 3-d
surfaces.
Several years ago, the future of math technology looked very bleak.
At that time you had the choice of using cas's from the big three (TI,
Hp, and Casio) or the prohibitively expensive (at that time) Maple or
Mathematica, and while the last two were constantly innovating, the
first three were not. The Hp 50 was introduced with few changes from
the previous model, and the tinspire series was very disappointing for
those who took the time to generate a list of functions they would
like to see in the new nspire design. At the same time Casio was
sticking with it's touch screen class pad and ignoring the hue and cry
for a dedicated math keyboard.
That was then and this is now, and with the promising new and
inexpensive cas's that have been identified along with probably a few
more that we don't know about, surely we are in the middle of a math
technology revolution! Yes, the new cas producers need to do some
debugging and that is taking place and their products will soon mature
and updates to the next versions are free. I remember the speculation
on the TI site (that they eliminated), shortly after nspire was
introduced, that because TI hasn't designed a next generation "math"
machine, surely someone else will, and now we are in the middle that
transition, from being a user of a single math program on a hand held
that does nothing else, to having a very portable PC with multiple
math tools/programs on it. Exciting. Very exciting indeed!
One more point I want to make is on the impact that the new netbook
computers will have on the calculator world in general. These small,
very portable, and very inexpensive computers with their quick boot
up, make having a dedicated hand held for math unnesessary and
undesirable. Look at it this way. The iphone had and still has a
huge impact on the cell phone world. In a similiar fashion the
netbook computer will revolutionize the calculator world. Why?
Because what the netbook computer has in common with the iphone is
that they are both very very superior devices that go way beyond what
is minimally necessary.
So what does this all mean to you? Well, if you are burned out from
the three T's (teaching trivia to teenagers) probably nothing. On the
other hand if you still have a passion for math, it means that this is
an exciting time. With a revolution in math technology taking place,
the best is yet to come.
P.S. You are going to like demonstrating math technology to your
students on your new netbook's color screen using one of three or four
math programs that you down loaded, and your students are going to be
fasinated and impressed by that really cool little computer.
Joe
On Nov 1, 2:23 pm, elkar <elkinarbel...@gmail.com> wrote:
> another Math Softwarehttp://en.smath.info/forum/default.aspx?g=posts&t=243
-TJ
Nov 3, 2009, 7:40:21 AM11/3/09
to tinspire
Dear Someone,
Can someone recap the discussion for me? The topic seems unclear and I
don't know what's going on.
Sincerely,
-TJ
Can someone recap the discussion for me? The topic seems unclear and I
don't know what's going on.
Sincerely,
-TJ
Joe
Nov 5, 2009, 9:48:11 PM11/5/09
to tinspire
Gee TJ, I just re-read the posts and it seemed pretty clear to me that
cas alternatives were being discussed with options and predictions
based on the options being made. Were you perhaps confused by the
reference to sliced rye bread. What specifically don't you
understand?
cas alternatives were being discussed with options and predictions
based on the options being made. Were you perhaps confused by the
reference to sliced rye bread. What specifically don't you
understand?
fhub
Nov 8, 2009, 9:52:35 AM11/8/09
to tinspire
>Yes, the new cas producers need to do some
debugging ...
You need another example of SpaceTime's extraordinary mathematical
skills?
Well, here it is:
Factor(x^2-1.8*x+0.81) gives (x-1/2)^2 as result!
But I have to admit: factoring a complete square is indeed a very
tough mathematical problem ... ;-)
Joe schrieb:
Joe
Nov 8, 2009, 4:41:10 PM11/8/09
to tinspire
You are quite right. I notice that the bug you mention was brought to
their attention on their web site and based on past experience I think
you can safely assume that it will soon be fixed. So try this. Go to
the Spacetime catalog and choose Plot3d and enter Plot3d(x^3*y^3/(x^12
+y^4). Then increase the points four fold or more so as to see
greater detail and press enter. Then maximize the screen if you
havn't already done so, and double click on the plot so that it fills
the whole computer screen. Finally select and use rotate, move, and
zoom at the bottom of the screen, in order to get "really spectacular"
color views of various areas of that surface. Now, compare that to
the 3-d graphing capability you get from your nspires.
Have you considered having several math programs such as nspire and
spacetime, and perhaps a student version of Maple or Mathematica on
inexpensive netbook computers, so that you and your students can use
the best of each, as well as use the computers for other things.
Having said that, from my experience I think you can safely assume
that space time will soon fix that bug, but let me ask you this. How
likely is it that TI will soon fix their lack of competitive 3-d
graphing capability? I hope it is soon, I doubt that it will ever
occur. So is it wise to limit yourself and your students to a single
hand held math capability? When there are better options?
Little battery operated math handhelds with their tiny B&W screens are
a thing of the past, as is being limited to only one math program.
It's ancient technology. Those days are drawing to a close. It's
over.
> > > another Math Softwarehttp://en.smath.info/forum/default.aspx?g=posts&t=243- Hide quoted text -
their attention on their web site and based on past experience I think
you can safely assume that it will soon be fixed. So try this. Go to
the Spacetime catalog and choose Plot3d and enter Plot3d(x^3*y^3/(x^12
+y^4). Then increase the points four fold or more so as to see
greater detail and press enter. Then maximize the screen if you
havn't already done so, and double click on the plot so that it fills
the whole computer screen. Finally select and use rotate, move, and
zoom at the bottom of the screen, in order to get "really spectacular"
color views of various areas of that surface. Now, compare that to
the 3-d graphing capability you get from your nspires.
Have you considered having several math programs such as nspire and
spacetime, and perhaps a student version of Maple or Mathematica on
inexpensive netbook computers, so that you and your students can use
the best of each, as well as use the computers for other things.
Having said that, from my experience I think you can safely assume
that space time will soon fix that bug, but let me ask you this. How
likely is it that TI will soon fix their lack of competitive 3-d
graphing capability? I hope it is soon, I doubt that it will ever
occur. So is it wise to limit yourself and your students to a single
hand held math capability? When there are better options?
Little battery operated math handhelds with their tiny B&W screens are
a thing of the past, as is being limited to only one math program.
It's ancient technology. Those days are drawing to a close. It's
over.
Wayne
Nov 8, 2009, 5:05:27 PM11/8/09
to tinspire
I must say that I would much prefer to have capabililties omitted from
a CAS (as with the Nspire) than to have them included but providing
incorrect results (as with the SpaceTime). At least I can then
confidently use the CAS with fewer, accurate features.
Wayne
> > > > another Math Softwarehttp://en.smath.info/forum/default.aspx?g=posts&t=243-Hide quoted text -
a CAS (as with the Nspire) than to have them included but providing
incorrect results (as with the SpaceTime). At least I can then
confidently use the CAS with fewer, accurate features.
Wayne
fhub
Nov 8, 2009, 5:06:23 PM11/8/09
to tinspire
Well, it seems you're misunderstanding me completely!
I don't defend nSpire at all, I'm far away from it, IMO nSpire is also
nothing else than a toy!
Long time ago TI already had a fantastic CAS, and this was Derive.
I've used Derive from its beginning (DOS version 1.0, where I was even
involved myself in its development) up to the latest Windows verson
6.x, and that was something that really can be called a CAS.
What I want to say with my postings here, is that we have a lot of
really good CAS which have been developed and tested more than 20
years (Mathematica, Maple, Reduce, muPad, Maxima, Derive,...), so I
think we don't need such 'trial-and-error' pseudo-CAS from authors
which are just amateurs in both, computer algebra and programming.
And SpaceTime is one example that belongs to these pseudo-CAS (among
lot of others) - it's indeed a waste of time even trying them (not to
speak of that they can't be trusted at all).
Joe schrieb:
I don't defend nSpire at all, I'm far away from it, IMO nSpire is also
nothing else than a toy!
Long time ago TI already had a fantastic CAS, and this was Derive.
I've used Derive from its beginning (DOS version 1.0, where I was even
involved myself in its development) up to the latest Windows verson
6.x, and that was something that really can be called a CAS.
What I want to say with my postings here, is that we have a lot of
really good CAS which have been developed and tested more than 20
years (Mathematica, Maple, Reduce, muPad, Maxima, Derive,...), so I
think we don't need such 'trial-and-error' pseudo-CAS from authors
which are just amateurs in both, computer algebra and programming.
And SpaceTime is one example that belongs to these pseudo-CAS (among
lot of others) - it's indeed a waste of time even trying them (not to
speak of that they can't be trusted at all).
Joe schrieb:
Joe
Nov 8, 2009, 9:25:13 PM11/8/09
to tinspire
The point I was trying to make Wayne is that you don't have to decide
on one or the other. You can have both. The technology is here right
now to have both, and even more. With the small, portable, and
inexpensive netbook computers, you can have the algebra/calculus
capabilities of nspire "and" the 3d graphing capabilities of spacetime
"and" what ever else you want, such as wireless internet "and" word
processing, "and" Mathematica or Maple, etc. and all on one small
portable device that spreads the overhead cost among many
functionalities in the same way that the smart phones like iphone do.
Look, netbooks are the one bright spot in computer sales. They are
here to stay and I can't emphasize enough that they make a superb
calculator platform, and by superb I mean the available calculator
handhelds look like something out of the 1950's by comparison. I
wouldn't trade my netbook with it's math programs for a dozen
calculators. There is just no comparison. More importantly, if your
job is to provide students with a decent math education, shouldn't you
expose them to more than one manufacturers math software on an old
fashioned handheld that they aren't likely to find in the workplace?
I think our governments cash for clunkers program needs to be extended
to teachers in such a fashion that they can trade in their single
purpose math clunkers for multiple purpose netbooks with pre-installed
math software.
> > > > > another Math Softwarehttp://en.smath.info/forum/default.aspx?g=posts&t=243-Hidequoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
on one or the other. You can have both. The technology is here right
now to have both, and even more. With the small, portable, and
inexpensive netbook computers, you can have the algebra/calculus
capabilities of nspire "and" the 3d graphing capabilities of spacetime
"and" what ever else you want, such as wireless internet "and" word
processing, "and" Mathematica or Maple, etc. and all on one small
portable device that spreads the overhead cost among many
functionalities in the same way that the smart phones like iphone do.
Look, netbooks are the one bright spot in computer sales. They are
here to stay and I can't emphasize enough that they make a superb
calculator platform, and by superb I mean the available calculator
handhelds look like something out of the 1950's by comparison. I
wouldn't trade my netbook with it's math programs for a dozen
calculators. There is just no comparison. More importantly, if your
job is to provide students with a decent math education, shouldn't you
expose them to more than one manufacturers math software on an old
fashioned handheld that they aren't likely to find in the workplace?
I think our governments cash for clunkers program needs to be extended
to teachers in such a fashion that they can trade in their single
purpose math clunkers for multiple purpose netbooks with pre-installed
math software.
>
> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
Joe
Nov 8, 2009, 9:41:23 PM11/8/09
to tinspire
Mr. Schrieb, I think I understand the point you are making, however
even student versions of Mathematical and Maple are still very pricey
and of course TI killed Derive so what are you recommending? The TI
cas is over 12 years old and relatively bug free and the spacetime
program provides excellent graphing. If you don't see that as a good
combination, what do you recommend? Please tell us about Reduce,
Mupad, and Maxima? I thought they were out of business.
> > > > > another Math Softwarehttp://en.smath.info/forum/default.aspx?g=posts&t=243-Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
even student versions of Mathematical and Maple are still very pricey
and of course TI killed Derive so what are you recommending? The TI
cas is over 12 years old and relatively bug free and the spacetime
program provides excellent graphing. If you don't see that as a good
combination, what do you recommend? Please tell us about Reduce,
Mupad, and Maxima? I thought they were out of business.
>
> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
lee kucera
Nov 8, 2009, 9:48:11 PM11/8/09
to tins...@googlegroups.com
Actually, Mathematica is running a teacher special of sorts now--$49
if you go through less than an hour's video training on the software.
lk
lee kucera
a.p. statistics
leek...@gmail.com
if you go through less than an hour's video training on the software.
lk
lee kucera
a.p. statistics
leek...@gmail.com
Wayne
Nov 8, 2009, 9:59:21 PM11/8/09
to tinspire
Providing math education is definitely not my job, but thanks for the
concern. I understood your point completely. I cannot understand
though why one would willingly trust a platform for one application
when it is known to be untrustworthy in another. That is the position
I find myself with SpaceTime on a netbook or any other hardware - it
seems to be untrustworthy in some fundamental applications so I am not
at all sure it is trustworthy when it comes to 3-D or any other
function not provided on the Nspire. That is the sense of my post -
not that all netbook apps should be avoided. In fact, if a netbook
had the processing power to complete in a reasonable time the Maple
tasks that I use, then I would gladly use a netbook. Unfortunately,
current netbooks lack that processing power as well as adequate
battery life for my use. So I will just continue to use Maple on a
desktop or server for difficult and time consuming tasks and programs
and Nspire for the more routine back-of-the-envelope computations,
functions, and programs for which I can trust its CAS to be
trustworthy.
Wayne
> > > > > > another Math Softwarehttp://en.smath.info/forum/default.aspx?g=posts&t=243-Hidequotedtext -
concern. I understood your point completely. I cannot understand
though why one would willingly trust a platform for one application
when it is known to be untrustworthy in another. That is the position
I find myself with SpaceTime on a netbook or any other hardware - it
seems to be untrustworthy in some fundamental applications so I am not
at all sure it is trustworthy when it comes to 3-D or any other
function not provided on the Nspire. That is the sense of my post -
not that all netbook apps should be avoided. In fact, if a netbook
had the processing power to complete in a reasonable time the Maple
tasks that I use, then I would gladly use a netbook. Unfortunately,
current netbooks lack that processing power as well as adequate
battery life for my use. So I will just continue to use Maple on a
desktop or server for difficult and time consuming tasks and programs
and Nspire for the more routine back-of-the-envelope computations,
functions, and programs for which I can trust its CAS to be
trustworthy.
Wayne
fhub
Nov 9, 2009, 5:52:04 AM11/9/09
to tinspire
Well, the latest Derive 6.10 is 5 years old (not 12), but what's the
problem with the age of a CAS? Does it become worse when getting older
(as we do ;-)) ?
If TI won't have made the terrible decision to remove more than 50% of
the capabilities of the Derive (and TI-92/Voyage) CAS for their new
product nSPire, then this successor would in fact be a good choice!
And since Derive is no longer available (officially), it would
certainly be no problem to use an 'unofficial' version from the web
(which not hard to find).
And about the other systems:
You´re right with muPad, it's indeed out of business (being now an
integrated part of the 'Symbolic Math Toolbox' of MATLAB), but the
latest (or maybe an older) version can certainly be found on the
internet.
Macsyma and Reduce are the first CAS that have been available at all
(more than 30 years ago), and both systems are now free (even open
source) and can be found here:
Maxima:
http://maxima.sourceforge.net/
http://sourceforge.net/projects/maxima/files/
Reduce:
http://reduce-algebra.sourceforge.net/
http://sourceforge.net/projects/reduce-algebra/files/
There's still another one worth to be mentioned:
XCAS, a PC version of the CAS included in the HP-48/49/50 calculators
(and from the same author).
http://www-fourier.ujf-grenoble.fr/~parisse/giac.html
And all of the last mentioned CAS are absolutely free, so there's
really no reason to spend any money for such unreliable programs like
SpaceTime and others ...
Joe schrieb:
problem with the age of a CAS? Does it become worse when getting older
(as we do ;-)) ?
If TI won't have made the terrible decision to remove more than 50% of
the capabilities of the Derive (and TI-92/Voyage) CAS for their new
product nSPire, then this successor would in fact be a good choice!
And since Derive is no longer available (officially), it would
certainly be no problem to use an 'unofficial' version from the web
(which not hard to find).
And about the other systems:
You´re right with muPad, it's indeed out of business (being now an
integrated part of the 'Symbolic Math Toolbox' of MATLAB), but the
latest (or maybe an older) version can certainly be found on the
internet.
Macsyma and Reduce are the first CAS that have been available at all
(more than 30 years ago), and both systems are now free (even open
source) and can be found here:
Maxima:
http://maxima.sourceforge.net/
http://sourceforge.net/projects/maxima/files/
Reduce:
http://reduce-algebra.sourceforge.net/
http://sourceforge.net/projects/reduce-algebra/files/
There's still another one worth to be mentioned:
XCAS, a PC version of the CAS included in the HP-48/49/50 calculators
(and from the same author).
http://www-fourier.ujf-grenoble.fr/~parisse/giac.html
And all of the last mentioned CAS are absolutely free, so there's
really no reason to spend any money for such unreliable programs like
SpaceTime and others ...
Joe schrieb:
Joe
Nov 9, 2009, 8:05:48 AM11/9/09
to tinspire
Thanks much for the reply Mr. Schrieb. I find this to be a very
fasinating discussion and would like to add the following.
Older software becomes worse "by comparison" to newer software in the
all important area of the user interface, as well as "by comparison"
in capability. For example I find using an on screen keypad with a
wireless mouse to be infinitely better than hunting around on a
keyboard for nonexistant math symbols, or attempting to correctly
depress only one button on a crowded handheld keyboard.
In the area of capability, graphing capability has increased by a huge
amount in the last ten years so don't expect to "see" the same results
from a program that was created during the DOS error as you would from
one created since then. In addition there are the problems of porting
to newer platforms and operating systems and that gradually makes
older software unusable.
Then there are the maintainance problems. Older software contains so
much bloat from fixes, patches, and workarounds that making minor
changes can have profound ripple effects. So it is generally better
to start from scratch than to try to upgrade older software to newer
user interfaces. The point is that it is best to leave older software
alone and at that point it usually goes into the public domain as
freeware. That is not to say that it is useless, it is to say however
that it is not a potentually upgradable product and won't have the
latest capabilities and user interface capabilities.
With time as platforms evolve and porting becomes a bigger and bigger
problem older software fades into history. So if you have an older
computer with windows 98 on it and some old math freeware, don't
expect that software to be compatable with the latest OS when you
eventually buy a new computer.
Taking the problems with older software in total, older software just
isn't as user friendly as the latest stuff and don't expect anyone to
upgrade older software with the latest bells and whistles. Do expect
older software to become unusable with the latest platforms/operating
systems. As with most things, you only get what you pay for however I
hasten to add that in todays business climate you sometimes pay a lot
and don't get much, for example in the evolution from the ti-89 to the
nspire cas, 3d graphing went from barely usable to nothing at all,
which is a reflection of a greedy unwillingness to spend the money to
do the job right. On the other hand, Apple still spends the money to
do the job right and has extremely successful products like the iphone
which now has thousands of after market software apps. Wake up TI.
The old rules of doing business still apply. It still takes a
superior product to generate superior sales.
On Nov 9, 2:52 am, fhub <f...@gmx.at> wrote:
> Well, the latest Derive 6.10 is 5 years old (not 12), but what's the
> problem with the age of a CAS? Does it become worse when getting older
> (as we do ;-)) ?
> If TI won't have made the terrible decision to remove more than 50% of
> the capabilities of the Derive (and TI-92/Voyage) CAS for their new
> product nSPire, then this successor would in fact be a good choice!
> And since Derive is no longer available (officially), it would
> certainly be no problem to use an 'unofficial' version from the web
> (which not hard to find).
>
> And about the other systems:
> You´re right with muPad, it's indeed out of business (being now an
> integrated part of the 'Symbolic Math Toolbox' of MATLAB), but the
> latest (or maybe an older) version can certainly be found on the
> internet.
>
> Macsyma and Reduce are the first CAS that have been available at all
> (more than 30 years ago), and both systems are now free (even open
> source) and can be found here:
> Maxima:http://maxima.sourceforge.net/http://sourceforge.net/projects/maxima/files/
> Reduce:http://reduce-algebra.sourceforge.net/http://sourceforge.net/projects/reduce-algebra/files/
> > > > > > > another Math Softwarehttp://en.smath.info/forum/default.aspx?g=posts&t=243-Hidequoted text -
fasinating discussion and would like to add the following.
Older software becomes worse "by comparison" to newer software in the
all important area of the user interface, as well as "by comparison"
in capability. For example I find using an on screen keypad with a
wireless mouse to be infinitely better than hunting around on a
keyboard for nonexistant math symbols, or attempting to correctly
depress only one button on a crowded handheld keyboard.
In the area of capability, graphing capability has increased by a huge
amount in the last ten years so don't expect to "see" the same results
from a program that was created during the DOS error as you would from
one created since then. In addition there are the problems of porting
to newer platforms and operating systems and that gradually makes
older software unusable.
Then there are the maintainance problems. Older software contains so
much bloat from fixes, patches, and workarounds that making minor
changes can have profound ripple effects. So it is generally better
to start from scratch than to try to upgrade older software to newer
user interfaces. The point is that it is best to leave older software
alone and at that point it usually goes into the public domain as
freeware. That is not to say that it is useless, it is to say however
that it is not a potentually upgradable product and won't have the
latest capabilities and user interface capabilities.
With time as platforms evolve and porting becomes a bigger and bigger
problem older software fades into history. So if you have an older
computer with windows 98 on it and some old math freeware, don't
expect that software to be compatable with the latest OS when you
eventually buy a new computer.
Taking the problems with older software in total, older software just
isn't as user friendly as the latest stuff and don't expect anyone to
upgrade older software with the latest bells and whistles. Do expect
older software to become unusable with the latest platforms/operating
systems. As with most things, you only get what you pay for however I
hasten to add that in todays business climate you sometimes pay a lot
and don't get much, for example in the evolution from the ti-89 to the
nspire cas, 3d graphing went from barely usable to nothing at all,
which is a reflection of a greedy unwillingness to spend the money to
do the job right. On the other hand, Apple still spends the money to
do the job right and has extremely successful products like the iphone
which now has thousands of after market software apps. Wake up TI.
The old rules of doing business still apply. It still takes a
superior product to generate superior sales.
On Nov 9, 2:52 am, fhub <f...@gmx.at> wrote:
> Well, the latest Derive 6.10 is 5 years old (not 12), but what's the
> problem with the age of a CAS? Does it become worse when getting older
> (as we do ;-)) ?
> If TI won't have made the terrible decision to remove more than 50% of
> the capabilities of the Derive (and TI-92/Voyage) CAS for their new
> product nSPire, then this successor would in fact be a good choice!
> And since Derive is no longer available (officially), it would
> certainly be no problem to use an 'unofficial' version from the web
> (which not hard to find).
>
> And about the other systems:
> You´re right with muPad, it's indeed out of business (being now an
> integrated part of the 'Symbolic Math Toolbox' of MATLAB), but the
> latest (or maybe an older) version can certainly be found on the
> internet.
>
> Macsyma and Reduce are the first CAS that have been available at all
> (more than 30 years ago), and both systems are now free (even open
> source) and can be found here:
> Maxima:http://maxima.sourceforge.net/http://sourceforge.net/projects/maxima/files/
>
> There's still another one worth to be mentioned:
> XCAS, a PC version of the CAS included in the HP-48/49/50 calculators
> (and from the same author).http://www-fourier.ujf-grenoble.fr/~parisse/giac.html
> There's still another one worth to be mentioned:
> XCAS, a PC version of the CAS included in the HP-48/49/50 calculators
fhub
Nov 9, 2009, 10:52:33 AM11/9/09
to tinspire
Well, where did I write that you should use an old CAS from the DOS
era (with a naked command-line on a black screen)? ;-)
Of course all CAS that I've mentioned above have a modern Windows GUI,
so I see no reason why they should be outdated.
Since most CAS consist of a (mathematical) kernel (mostly written in
Lisp) and a GUI, it would be enough to adapt the GUI to what people
nowadays expect from a user-friendly program.
There's absolutely no need to re-invent the mathematical skills (i.e.
the CA algorithms) again - they have been developed by hundreds of
experienced mathematicians and tested for many years, and that's a
task that no single amateur mathematician can solve by himself. And if
he nevertheless tries to do it, then you can see (e.g. in SpaceTime)
what the result is: lots of errors even in elementary mathematical
calculations!
And what you're describing as 'modern' features, well, almost every
CAS that I mentioned has it: templates for mathematical symbols and
greek letters, 2D and 3D graphics, etc. ... (I would recommend
especially Derive 6.10 and Maxima).
It seems you have in fact never used or tried one of these programs,
otherwise you would know that ...
Joe schrieb:
era (with a naked command-line on a black screen)? ;-)
Of course all CAS that I've mentioned above have a modern Windows GUI,
so I see no reason why they should be outdated.
Since most CAS consist of a (mathematical) kernel (mostly written in
Lisp) and a GUI, it would be enough to adapt the GUI to what people
nowadays expect from a user-friendly program.
There's absolutely no need to re-invent the mathematical skills (i.e.
the CA algorithms) again - they have been developed by hundreds of
experienced mathematicians and tested for many years, and that's a
task that no single amateur mathematician can solve by himself. And if
he nevertheless tries to do it, then you can see (e.g. in SpaceTime)
what the result is: lots of errors even in elementary mathematical
calculations!
And what you're describing as 'modern' features, well, almost every
CAS that I mentioned has it: templates for mathematical symbols and
greek letters, 2D and 3D graphics, etc. ... (I would recommend
especially Derive 6.10 and Maxima).
It seems you have in fact never used or tried one of these programs,
otherwise you would know that ...
Joe schrieb:
Joe
Nov 9, 2009, 10:15:14 PM11/9/09
to tinspire
Joe, I don't understand what is going on. TI buys Derive, they
produce it for a while and then pull it off the market. Did they then
sell it to another company? If not, how is it legal for other
companies to offer it? For example
http://derive.en.softonic.com/ offers it as a 30 day trial and
presumably after that you have to pay money to buy it. What in the
world is going on here?
> > > Maxima:http://maxima.sourceforge.net/http://sourceforge.net/projects/maxima/...
> > > Reduce:http://reduce-algebra.sourceforge.net/http://sourceforge.net/projects...
> ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
produce it for a while and then pull it off the market. Did they then
sell it to another company? If not, how is it legal for other
companies to offer it? For example
http://derive.en.softonic.com/ offers it as a 30 day trial and
presumably after that you have to pay money to buy it. What in the
world is going on here?
> > > Reduce:http://reduce-algebra.sourceforge.net/http://sourceforge.net/projects...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
Joe
Nov 25, 2009, 9:24:12 PM11/25/09
to tinspire
Just a quick note to any of you who might have spacetime on your
laptops. I just downloaded update 3 for spacetime 4.0 and the bug(s)
that Joe Schrieb pointed out for solve(x/(x-1)) and factor(x^2-1.8x+.
81) among other things are fixed. Thats less than a month from report
to fix with an update available. Hopefully TI will now do a fix for
their problem with the double angle identity reported recently.
> RegardingSpaceTimeI can't agree at all - that's nothing else than a
> > rye bread (my favorite). I love it.- Hide quoted text -
laptops. I just downloaded update 3 for spacetime 4.0 and the bug(s)
that Joe Schrieb pointed out for solve(x/(x-1)) and factor(x^2-1.8x+.
81) among other things are fixed. Thats less than a month from report
to fix with an update available. Hopefully TI will now do a fix for
their problem with the double angle identity reported recently.
> RegardingSpaceTimeI can't agree at all - that's nothing else than a
fhub
Nov 26, 2009, 8:41:07 AM11/26/09
to tinspire
> I just downloaded update 3 for spacetime 4.0
> and the bug(s) ... pointed out ... among other
> things are fixed. Thats less than a month from
> report to fix with an update available.
So let's wait for the next wrong calculations (and there are already
> report to fix with an update available.
some) and their fix, and the next ... and their fix, and ... and so
on ...
Three words are enough to describe SpaceTime:
an unreliable CAS!
But you seem to be a PR mangager for SpaceTime ... ;-)
Joe schrieb:
Joe
Nov 26, 2009, 1:15:08 PM11/26/09
to tinspire
HI Joe Schrieb,
Good to hear from you again. It is my memory that all CAS's undergo a
period of bug fixes as they mature and bugs are discovered on even old
programs such as the recently reported double angle bug for the TI
cas. My approach to this problem is to use what I believe to be the
strengths of each cas program and when an answer just doesn't seem
right, or if it is of critical importance, I check it out, sometimes
by using another cas. In this regard, I really like convenience of
the SpaceTime 3D plotting capability and I think that capability alone
is worth the small price that they charge.
BTW, I considered taking your advice and adding Derive to the three
cas programs that I presently use on my next generation calculator (a
netbook computer with multiple cas's), but I'm concerned that it might
be illegal to down load and use Derive (which I thought was TI
property) from what is obviously a non-TI site. I sure wish someone
would shed some light on that situation because I'm not to keen on
exposing my credit card number by buying software from people who
might be doing illegal things.
Now let me make a full disclosure and admit that I do not have any
financial interest in SpaceTime, nor am I friends with any of the
people that work there, nor do I have any incentive to promote that
program other than the fact that I like what they are doing and
especially like their 3D multiple surface graphing, which includes
full screen option, rotation in all axis, zoom, and move. In addition
I want to admit that my x-wife doe not have a fur coat in the closet.
(A joke from the Nixon era.) :)
> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
Good to hear from you again. It is my memory that all CAS's undergo a
period of bug fixes as they mature and bugs are discovered on even old
programs such as the recently reported double angle bug for the TI
cas. My approach to this problem is to use what I believe to be the
strengths of each cas program and when an answer just doesn't seem
right, or if it is of critical importance, I check it out, sometimes
by using another cas. In this regard, I really like convenience of
the SpaceTime 3D plotting capability and I think that capability alone
is worth the small price that they charge.
BTW, I considered taking your advice and adding Derive to the three
cas programs that I presently use on my next generation calculator (a
netbook computer with multiple cas's), but I'm concerned that it might
be illegal to down load and use Derive (which I thought was TI
property) from what is obviously a non-TI site. I sure wish someone
would shed some light on that situation because I'm not to keen on
exposing my credit card number by buying software from people who
might be doing illegal things.
Now let me make a full disclosure and admit that I do not have any
financial interest in SpaceTime, nor am I friends with any of the
people that work there, nor do I have any incentive to promote that
program other than the fact that I like what they are doing and
especially like their 3D multiple surface graphing, which includes
full screen option, rotation in all axis, zoom, and move. In addition
I want to admit that my x-wife doe not have a fur coat in the closet.
(A joke from the Nixon era.) :)
fhub
Nov 26, 2009, 2:16:56 PM11/26/09
to tinspire
> HI Joe Schrieb,
LOL :-)
"Joe Schrieb" is not my name, this has just been added by the
GoogleGroups software when I answered the first time in this thread
here, it's in German and means "Joe wrote" in English.
My true name is Franz. ;-)
As for Derive:
Well, if I were you I won't worry much about any licence issues of
Derive. This program has been withdrawn from the market some years ago
and is not sold or updated anymore, so I would simply call it
'abandonware'.
Thus I won't see any problem at all to try getting a working copy of
Derive from anywhere on the internet (there are some places which have
cracked versions), who should really care about it?
Joe schrieb:
LOL :-)
"Joe Schrieb" is not my name, this has just been added by the
GoogleGroups software when I answered the first time in this thread
here, it's in German and means "Joe wrote" in English.
My true name is Franz. ;-)
As for Derive:
Well, if I were you I won't worry much about any licence issues of
Derive. This program has been withdrawn from the market some years ago
and is not sold or updated anymore, so I would simply call it
'abandonware'.
Thus I won't see any problem at all to try getting a working copy of
Derive from anywhere on the internet (there are some places which have
cracked versions), who should really care about it?
Joe schrieb:
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