Future of TW5, TiddlyWeb, TW...
Mat
about programming so if there is little discussion here then I hope
double-posting it in the TW group is ok.)
As a mere TW user/fan, I'm curious to hear what you developer guys
think/intend - or even just hope - for the future of TW. Here are some
specific questions, but please express whatever other thoughts you
have on TW trends. No commitments. Pretend we've all got a cold beer
in our hands :-)
* Do I understand it right that there are currently *three major* and,
from a regular end-user-point, incompatible paths in the going, i.e;
classic TW, TiddlyWeb, TW5. More?
* If I understand it right, TiddlyWeb adds a fundamentally different
set of features to what is possible in classic TW. For this reason,
I'm wondering if TW5 is being designed with any respect to TiddlyWeb?
* Are there any quantitatively different features (from an end users
veiw!) that TW5 is intended to provide that are not possible with
classic TW? E.g going from "wiki markup to wysiwyg markup" doesn't
really change what is possible with TW whereas many of the core
concepts behind TiddlyWeb do differ very much from what is possible
with classic TW. How will TW5 compare with classic TW in this regard?
* Since Osmosoft holds the core team of developers and because it is
also the official representative for new releases (correct? It does
own tiddlywiki.com to name one thing, right?) then I'm wondering what
the intentions are on the future for classic TW. I.e is active
development for it going to be abandoned in Osmosoft?
* Any particular reflections on how, or if, TW5 and TiddlyWeb (and
more?) are evolving to/with the various tec trends we see? Since the
inception of TW, a few things have happened - most notably perhaps the
partial transition to mobile devices and also the increased popularity
of social services (facebook, chatting, skype...) and more. Obviously
most trends and fads are reflected on the plugin level, but I'm asking
if you consider some things fundamental enough to justify
considerations at core level?
I don't expect any consensus on these blurry matters, I'm just curious
to hear your thoughts on this.
Cheers :-)
jnthnlstr
> * Any particular reflections on how, or if, TW5 and TiddlyWeb (and
> more?) are evolving to/with the various tec trends we see? Since the
> inception of TW, a few things have happened - most notably perhaps the
> partial transition to mobile devices and also the increased popularity
> of social services (facebook, chatting, skype...) and more. Obviously
> most trends and fads are reflected on the plugin level, but I'm asking
> if you consider some things fundamental enough to justify
> considerations at core level?
I'm quite into hearing the response to that point.
J.
FND
> from a regular end-user-point, incompatible paths in the going, i.e;
> classic TW, TiddlyWeb, TW5. More?
Well, it depends on your perspective. There are many (more or less
active) projects in the Tiddly* universe.
I guess your list about covers what might be perceived as "endorsed"
projects. However, that's not meant to be exclusionary; the variety of
options is an essential part of this community and the decentralized
ecosystem.
As for incompatible paths, I don't think that perception is correct. See
below for details.
> * If I understand it right, TiddlyWeb adds a fundamentally different
> set of features to what is possible in classic TW.
What makes you think that? Basically, TiddlyWeb is just a tiddler store,
agnostic about who uses that data or how - this might be "classic"
TiddlyWiki, TiddlyWiki5, an application on a handheld device or some
other client.
Beyond this basic entity, TiddlyWeb adds a layer for grouping (bags) and
combining (recipes) tiddler collections. These concepts already map to
the existing TiddlyWiki's understanding of workspaces.
FWIW, I'm working on a simple animation to visualize this relationship
which might clarify things a little, but it's currently not a priority.
> I'm wondering if TW5 is being designed with any respect to TiddlyWeb?
While there are some lessons learned from TiddlyWeb, TW5 is not tailored
to work specifically with TiddlyWeb. That is, there's no tight coupling;
both are designed to work independently.
Here, too, it comes down to the tiddler as the basic entity, which
establishes a common basis for interaction.
> * Are there any quantitatively different features (from an end users
> veiw!) that TW5 is intended to provide that are not possible with
> classic TW?
I reckon the current prototype makes a good case, with the Improvements
tiddler providing a concise overview:
http://tiddlywiki.com/tiddlywiki5/
> * Since Osmosoft holds the core team of developers and because it is
> also the official representative for new releases (correct? It does
> own tiddlywiki.com to name one thing, right?)
Actually, the non-profit UnaMesa Association is the custodian of
TiddlyWiki assets:
http://tiddlywiki.org/wiki/UnaMesa
> I'm wondering what the intentions are on the future for classic TW.
> I.e is active development for it going to be abandoned in Osmosoft?
As explained by Jeremy, TiddlyWiki and TiddlyWiki5 will continue to
co-exist:
http://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki/browse_thread/thread/33f9cb46d5d15566/dd9515c29e50d6c2?#dd9515c29e50d6c2
That is, TW and TW5 complement each other. The stability of classic
TiddlyWiki will be maintained while TiddlyWiki5 is free to explore new
avenues independently.
Since "it's all just tiddlers", anyone's free to shuttle back and forth
between TW and TW5 as they please.
TiddlyWiki's stand-alone nature gives everyone the freedom to advance at
their own pace.
Personally, I still have some TiddlyWiki documents using older versions
(as far back as v2.1.3) - there's no need for me upgrade those
partocular documents until I actually want to take advantage of the
features provided by later versions. At the same time, I have TiddlyWiki
2.6 documents with plugins that require jQuery.
> * Any particular reflections on how, or if, TW5 and TiddlyWeb (and
> more?) are evolving to/with the various tec trends we see?
TiddlyWiki5 makes heavy use of modern technologies like HTML5. Here,
too, the prototype mentioned above gives a good overview.
As for TiddlyWeb, it intentionally utilizes the proven HTTP standard,
which is what the web is based on. (Though HTTP is better understood
these days than it used to be.)
-- F.
Paul Downey
> from a regular end-user-point, incompatible paths in the going, i.e;
> classic TW, TiddlyWeb, TW5. More?
There's always stuff going on with TiddlyWiki and anyone is free to do
what they want, but from Osmosoft's perspective the following things
are happening:
* TiddlyWiki - mainting and releasing the TiddlyWiki core
* TiddlyWeb - a reference implementation for a Web interface (in
Python) for storing and assembling tiddlers into TiddlyWikis (and
other Web sites)
* TiddlySpace - a social platform for creating multi-user TiddlyWikis
based on TiddlyWeb (that's my way of explaining it, but it has many
exciting possibilities)
* TW5 - explicitly Jeremy Ruston, the inventor of TiddlyWiki's project
to bring TiddlyWiki into the age of HTML 5.
plus a bunch of uses of TiddlyWiki and TiddlyWeb both inside and
outside of BT. We're in the process of updating http://osmosoft.com to
better communicate how we're contributing.
> * If I understand it right, TiddlyWeb adds a fundamentally different
> set of features to what is possible in classic TW. For this reason,
> I'm wondering if TW5 is being designed with any respect to TiddlyWeb?
TiddlyWebWiki is a set of plugins so TiddlyWiki may be served and
saved to a TiddlyWeb instance. TW5 is definitely being developed with
TiddlyWeb in mind.
> * Are there any quantitatively different features (from an end users
> veiw!) that TW5 is intended to provide that are not possible with
> classic TW? E.g going from "wiki markup to wysiwyg markup" doesn't
> really change what is possible with TW whereas many of the core
> concepts behind TiddlyWeb do differ very much from what is possible
> with classic TW. How will TW5 compare with classic TW in this regard?
I'll leave that to Jeremy, there's mail in the archive, but AIUI
you'll be able to do more with TW5, though existing plugins aren't
likely to work, it'll be easy to port / reproduce them with the TW5
code.
> * Since Osmosoft holds the core team of developers and because it is
> also the official representative for new releases (correct? It does
> own tiddlywiki.com to name one thing, right?) then I'm wondering what
> the intentions are on the future for classic TW. I.e is active
> development for it going to be abandoned in Osmosoft?
TiddlyWiki is Jeremy's invention, but legally belongs to Una Mesa, a
not-for-profit independent of Osmosoft and BT. I think we'll be
maintaining TiddlyWiki for a while, not least to protect our not
insignificant investment. TW5 doesn't exist, but we have high hopes
for TiddlySpace, so I think that bodes well for TiddlyWiki in the
foreseeable future.-- Note that's my personal POV, not a commitment on
behalf of Osmosoft.
> * Any particular reflections on how, or if, TW5 and TiddlyWeb (and
> more?) are evolving to/with the various tec trends we see? Since the
> inception of TW, a few things have happened - most notably perhaps the
> partial transition to mobile devices and also the increased popularity
> of social services (facebook, chatting, skype...) and more. Obviously
> most trends and fads are reflected on the plugin level, but I'm asking
> if you consider some things fundamental enough to justify
> considerations at core level?
I think TW5 is playing right to that, especially if the core becomes
much tighter, and uses newer CSS3 and JavaScript features which are
being optimised by browser and manufactures.
HTH
--
Paul (psd)
http://blog.whatfettle.com
Paul Downey
by which I meant "is embryonic" ..
Jeremy Ruston
> * Do I understand it right that there are currently *three major* and,
> from a regular end-user-point, incompatible paths in the going, i.e;
> classic TW, TiddlyWeb, TW5. More?
My way of looking at it is that TiddlyWiki and TiddlyWeb are two sides
of the same coin, embodiments of the same simple ideas, one as a piece
of client software and one as a piece of server software. They can be
used independently or together. TiddlyWeb's purpose is to answer the
needs that standalone TiddlyWiki can never address: large data sets,
multi-user access, security.
TiddlyWiki5 is the next stage in the evolution of TiddlyWiki. As the
text in the prototype discusses, there has always been a tension
between the desire to extend TiddlyWiki to resolve some of it's long
standing problems, versus the need to keep it stable to let everyone
benefit from the ecosystem of plugins and experience. TiddlyWiki5
allows us to embrace the opportunities offered by browser advances,
and also sort out some of the internal issues with TiddlyWiki that
give it performance problems.
> * If I understand it right, TiddlyWeb adds a fundamentally different
> set of features to what is possible in classic TW. For this reason,
> I'm wondering if TW5 is being designed with any respect to TiddlyWeb?
I wouldn't see it like that. It's more that in order to support the
features mentioned above, TiddlyWeb has had to introduce things like
revisions and security descriptors, which are not supported by classic
TiddlyWiki. So we've retrofitted those things onto TiddlyWiki classic
via a set of plugins. It works OK, but it's a kludgey and inconsistent
arrangement, and it means that we don't have consistent behaviour
between the client and the server. So, TiddlyWiki5 is being driven by
TiddlyWeb to the extent that these features need client side support.
> * Are there any quantitatively different features (from an end users
> veiw!) that TW5 is intended to provide that are not possible with
> classic TW? E.g going from "wiki markup to wysiwyg markup" doesn't
> really change what is possible with TW whereas many of the core
> concepts behind TiddlyWeb do differ very much from what is possible
> with classic TW. How will TW5 compare with classic TW in this regard?
As Paul notes, the text in the prototype is intended to answer that question.
> * Since Osmosoft holds the core team of developers and because it is
> also the official representative for new releases (correct? It does
> own tiddlywiki.com to name one thing, right?) then I'm wondering what
> the intentions are on the future for classic TW. I.e is active
> development for it going to be abandoned in Osmosoft?
Paul's already answered this: Long ago I made over all the TiddlyWiki
"properties" to the non-profit UnaMesa foundation.
I expect people to still be using classic TiddlyWiki for many, many
years to come.
> * Any particular reflections on how, or if, TW5 and TiddlyWeb (and
> more?) are evolving to/with the various tec trends we see? Since the
> inception of TW, a few things have happened - most notably perhaps the
> partial transition to mobile devices and also the increased popularity
> of social services (facebook, chatting, skype...) and more. Obviously
> most trends and fads are reflected on the plugin level, but I'm asking
> if you consider some things fundamental enough to justify
> considerations at core level?
Good question.
TiddlyWeb, for me, was partly influenced by the transition to mobile
devices. It gives us the ability to serve tiddlers to dumb clients
that don't support javascript, which are an important subset of the
mobile space. But for the most part the drivers were my awareness of
the things that I wouldn't be able to do within TiddlyWiki itself. I
think of TiddlyWeb as being upside down compared to most serverside
environments, because it focusses on being the smallest possible
mechanism to give us those few features that standalone TiddlyWiki
can't manage.
TiddlyWiki5 is much more a response to external changes in the tech
landscape, notably decent cross browser support for SVG and rich text
editing.
But, frankly, the drivers that I've spent more time thinking about is
(a) what we've learned from five years of TiddlyWiki being used in
anger by many thousands of end users (b) the benefit of hindsight
showing me where the original internal design was sub-optimal
(primarily with respect to performance, but also with respect to ease
of comprehension and extension).
Best wishes
Jeremy
>
> I don't expect any consensus on these blurry matters, I'm just curious
> to hear your thoughts on this.
>
> Cheers :-)
>
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>
--
Jeremy Ruston
mailto:jer...@osmosoft.com
http://www.tiddlywiki.com
Xen
There is one thing that draws my attention.
FND wrote:
> Beyond this basic entity, TiddlyWeb adds a layer for grouping (bags) and combining (recipes) tiddler collections. These concepts already map to the existing TiddlyWiki's understanding of workspaces.
The workspace concept is completely new to me. From what I see the
idea of bags and recipes would be very welcome indeed in the context
of delivering end-user applications or add-ons to the user, to the
local wiki document.
For instance, the way I know it to be now, if I want to import the
application called "twab" (TW adress book), I have to point my import
at the right address and manually select all of the tiddlers tagged
"twab". It's a bit clumsy. It would be great if there was a common
interface - possibly a central repository, but in any case a "bag" or
"recipe" system that would allow me to browse all the "packages" on a
remote host/document, and simply select "import twab".
Can someone explain to me how the bags 'n recipes concept is being
reflected in TW classic and TW5?
PMario
On Apr 2, 7:13 am, Xen
> Can someone explain to me how the bags 'n recipes concept is being
> reflected in TW classic and TW5?
I can show you an example:
http://hoster.peermore.com/pmario.myopenid.com
There ia a wiki called MaloCSSLibrary which contains:
Ricipe:
system .. comes from tiddlyWeb
systemMalo .. I did this one
MaloCSSLibrary .. which contains the description tiddlers.
Tiddlers:
All tiddlers that are extracted with the above recipes.
====
Let's say you like the 8 line MaloCSS and you want to use it. Thats
easy.
*Click the recipe systemMalo
*Click the favorite button above the description
**Now systemMalo is added to you site. You can use it in one of your
recipes
*Go back to my site an repeate everything with MaloCSSLibrary
**Only there as a description. can be deleted if not needed anymore
*Now go to your site and drag systemMalo and MaloCSSLibrary onto your
public or private wiki/recipe
**A dialog comes up
**should be
1 system
2 systemMalo
3 MaloCSSLibrary
4 yourRecipeNameLooong
*click the wiki and open it as a wiki.
*now you have opened my uuups your Malo aware TW
====
In the TW click the more button at the edit menue and
click fields for the workspace info of an "old" Tiddlywiki.
Someone else may jump in for the access rights. Would be interesting
also for me :)
I did it with a second account and lost the edit rights on my own wiki
now.
I think this mechanism is extreamly powerfull in combination with
tiddlyspace.com which has a nice start picture now. A living countdown
for "sign in" would be cool.
I made a second TW where I use mptw and some of my recipes to build a
ListPlugins page.
http://hoster.peermore.com/recipes/ListPlugins/tiddlers
have fun!
Mario
PMario
I forgot. You have to register, otherwise bookmark and favorite doesnt
work
-m
FND
> reflected in TW classic and TW5?
In TW, each tiddler (if served by TiddlyWeb) has metadata identifying
its origin. The "server.workspace" field contains a reference to either
the bag or the recipe (e.g. "bags/Alpha", "recipes/Omega"). In addition,
"server.bag" and/or "server.recipe" are set to allow applications to be
more specific about how they want to interact with the server (rather
than relying on the workspace abstraction).
I'd be happy to elaborate on the TiddlyWeb mailing list.
-- F.
chris...@gmail.com
> Someone else may jump in for the access rights. Would be interesting
> also for me :)
None of TiddlyWebWiki, TiddlyHoster or TiddlySpace yet expose much of
the power associated with the policy entities used to control access
right in TiddlyWeb. There is some information on TPC, this tiddlers is a
relatively good starting point if you are interested in details:
http://tiddlyweb.peermore.com/wiki/recipes/docs/tiddlers/policy
Bag and recipe policies can be edited using twanager, PUTs to the
server, or (if you must) direct edits of the files in the store.
Hopefully there will be improved tools soon.
Hoster has some exposure of policies on bags, with predetermined
access models:
* public: anyone can read, write, edit or delete
* protected: anyone can read, the "owner" can write, edit and delete
* private: only the owner can do anything
When I come up with a suitable way to do the interaction, it will also
be possible to add people and roles to specific parts of the policies.
Ideas or prototypes welcomed.
--
Chris Dent http://burningchrome.com/~cdent/
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