Translations: call for help with Spanish and others

[Yakov]

Hello everyone,

recently I've finished updating Spanish translation to 2.10.1, but I'm not a native speaker, so I'd be glad if someone can review the changes (starting from "feature: update Spanish (es) translation to 2.6.2") and tell if there are any mistakes. If it simplifies the process, you can look up the corresponding changes in English lingo in the history. The whole thing is about 15-20 sentences long, at the most.

If anyone is interested in updating other translations, I'd be glad to help, too. Let me know if you'd help, but using git makes the process too complicated for you, I have an idea how to simplify it via Google Sheets. In case you'd like to try using git and Github, you can check the conversation with Reto about Germain translation.

If you'd like to participate in creating the first RTL localization (like Arabic, Farsi, or Hebrew) or any other missing translation, please let me know as well. This is a much greater task, but it definitely can be done in small steps.

Last but not least, I'm interested in hearing any experience with the existing translations (I suspect they are not popular, but it would be nice to know details, like maybe you've tried to install one and something went wrong).

Best regards,

Yakov.

[Roma]

I will be glad to help for french translation. Not before 4 weeks or so I'm afraid because I am presently busy too much...

[Yakov]

Hi Roma, sounds nice, take your time and let me know when you're good to go with this :)

понедельник, 2 декабря 2024 г. в 16:37:14 UTC+3, Roma:

[Roma]

I am alas busy too much presently to go through translation... I won't forget, nonetheless, will do as promised asap!

In the meantime, I propose my thoughts as a funny but, I hope, interesting view about languages and trend on the tech.

First, it is important to understand that England and France have a non-neutral history. Second, as a French of 60 years old, I appreciate and use for the best my language. Third, as languages, if English is brilliant (like German) for developping concepts used for example in philosophy, French is good for diplomacy and poetry because of its use of periphrases.

Having said that, one should understand I cannot be a fanatic of the english language. English is amongst the many languages in the world, a beautiful one. There is not a lot. Spanish, Italian, German... are nice too. But French and Russian are more beautiful. However, it is to be honest to say that english has decisive advantages over other languages especially in the tech field, which led me to think it should replace any local language. I have adopted this resolution except for TW because it is so personal. I modified it in a nasty way (I mean in its core) so that it reflects, through //my// language, my style, what TW is supposed to reflect as a... powerful and //distinguished// secretary.

Now, I could have think differently and accept the original language of its creator and the one the developpers work with. The reasons for this are probably interesting.

* English is concise. The lengh of words is not a trivial question for interfaces.
* Translation is not that easy. For //Tags//, I first chose //Etiquettes// before changing to //Index//. But it is always questionable.
* Grammar is also a problem. When English just put //the// or //a// or nothing, French put //le//, //la//, //l'//, //une//, //un//, //des//, etc. depending on the gender, etc.
* French has somehow the chance to benefit from a //US international with dead keys// code to simplify diacritics. Cyrillic for instance adopts something different for Russian whereas Serbian //can// transcript in latinic with diacritics... when they choose to use them... Simplification leads to abandon the academic way for being more operational. But "in between" is strange, to say the least. Languages written with ideograms or in a different direction are other problems.
* English has spread worldwide nowadays, and since some time, so that if not spoken by people, is understood on a words basis. This is sufficient to understand any computer interface.
* English spoken sphere is the most dynamic and at least stands for being the most dynamic thanks to its heritage which acts as a fund where subsequent inventions come from, thus getting with them the technical words. The French where first on the cinema, and many words still populate its world.
* English is handy and concise as said previously.
* Changes are tricky, any developpers know this. Are translations that important to add difficulties or work?

Please, apologize for this post because it is nor important nor well written (no time for that). Just share thoughts for amusement...

[Yakov]

Hi Roma,

> Are translations that important to add difficulties or work?

I think that's the key question here. Since there's seemingly not that much interest, it's probably ok to focus on other improvements of TW. For now, my main focus is to improve the UI (and some UX bits) and infrastructure for extensions (i.e. EEP) and for updating core. Another big question is if we're able to promote TWC to new users, because this largely defines the future of TWC.

среда, 22 января 2025 г. в 18:23:46 UTC+3, Roma:

[Roma]

I think you're right, Yakov. User investment in using TW is for the man in the street harder than learning few words acting like buttons. Any code is in english, so...

[Alfonso Arciniega]

Hi Yakov,

I have barely used Git in the past, though it has been more than five years back.

I managed to fork "translations " (https://github.com/TiddlyWiki/translations?tab=readme-ov-file) into my own branch (https://github.com/aaarciniega/translations/tree/TWC-translation-ES) , though I don't feel comfortable with editing and else. I am not a developer by any means. I need to learn Git again, and I am afraid it could take some time.

So, to speed us the process, this is what I suggest: 

Send me the two locale.js files of the TW Classic version you like me to review: the English locale.js and the Spanish locale.es.js (I need both for comparison)? Then I could compare the original and the translation. Afterwards I could send the reviewed Spanish locale.es.js back to you.

Question: Why do we need to start reviewing from version 2.6.2 on? Past translations to Spanish were very good. Some minor changes could be made though nothing critical to produce misunderstandings. Reviewing version 2.10.1 could be more productive, don't you think?

Alfonso

[Yakov]

Hi Alfonso,

no problem, you can edit the files or make notes anywhere you want and write/attach/link here, I'll do the git stuff myself.

Let me clarify what's to review so that you don't do extra work:

• on the one hand, you could compare locale.es.js and locale.en.js directly (use the download button* if you prefer working with local files);
• on the other, exactly to track and review changes, I've created the lingo history file, so what really should be reviewed is just the changes for each version. Take a look at the changes history: there are 15 changes marked with "(es)" (currently all on the first page, so you can just search it for "(es)"). Starting from feature: update Spanish (es) translation to 2.6.2, they need to be compared with those in the lingo history, for instance the update to 2.6.2 has 2 changes: adding an annotation for SystemSettings and describing columns of listViewTemplateReadOnly (only "title" bit is seen by users and should be translated).

So to avoid checking the whole translation files and to review only the changes since 2.6.1, I'd propose the following approach:

1. Open changes from the lingo history file, one version at a time (for 2.6.1 → 2.6.2: 1, 2). For later updates (starting from 2.6.3), see the update example, they should be easier to follow.
2. Open the corresponding update of es translation in the changes history: feature: update Spanish (es) translation to 2.6.2.
3. Compare the changes, don't mind the technical bits, make notes if some translation bits are inaccurate, ask questions here if you get some (I guess, bits like what to translate in listViewTemplateReadOnly can be unclear, although you can see what's translated by comparing the updates of the en version and es translation).

Most of the updates are very small (like 1-2 sentences or even smaller), so once you get used to this approach, it will take a little time. It can be also useful to note some updates as "should be reviewed more carefully" and share this notes as, hopefully, most of the time you'll just see correct updates and will only need to understand a few updates in detail.

Best regards,

Yakov

* here it is:

воскресенье, 9 марта 2025 г. в 07:09:10 UTC+3, aaac...@gmail.com:

[Alfonso Arciniega]

Hi Yakov,

I prefer to review the latest two locale files directly, the one in English and the one in Spanish. Reviewing each update file appears too complicated for me. I don't want to start doing something and not being sure if what I am doing is right or wrong. It's easier to check the whole translation files at once. This also helps to maintain the context in the translation (i.e., maintaining the writing in second person across the file). To identify the changes, I could track them in a MS-Word document.

Is this acceptable to you? Please let me know.

Regards,

Alfonso 

[Yakov]

Hi Alfonso,

sure, I'd appreciate feedback regardless the way you gather and provide it: after all, it's the quality of the translation and how useful it is for users that I care about.

For your convenience, here are the direct links to the files: en, es.

Best regards,

Yakov

среда, 19 марта 2025 г. в 07:38:23 UTC+3, aaac...@gmail.com:

[Alfonso Arciniega]

Hi Yakov,

Attached is the reviewed Spanish locale translation, in MS Word and with "Track Changes Enabled". This way all the recommended changes may be seen in red colour. 

I tried to maintain a relatively formal third-person communication, as per the Spanish Royal Academy (https://www.rae.es/) as possible. 

Most of the translation is directly translated from the English version, without optimization. This means that additional optimization in both English and other languages may be possible, especially now that more and more information technology words in English are commonly accepted in other languages.

Let me know if you have any questions.

Regards,

Alfonso

[Yakov]

Thanks a lot, Alfonso, great work!

The usage of "track changes" is really helpful, just like git diff, very convenient!

I'll apply the changes gradually (will also learn some details in the process; I've pushed first changes already) and I'll ask questions if I have any.

Best regards,

Yakov

пятница, 18 апреля 2025 г. в 08:12:50 UTC+3, aaac...@gmail.com:

[Yakov]

Hello Alfonso,

a quick question for today: in mainDownloadManual, you've proposed to remove the "DERECHO" bit, is that because it works with the left click (i.e. you're proposing to update it in the core, too)?

Best regards,

Yakov

суббота, 19 апреля 2025 г. в 14:28:48 UTC+3, Yakov:

[Alfonso Arciniega]

Hi Yakov,

I shouldn't have deleted "DERECHO". Please reject the correction in this case.

Regards,

Alfonso