Re: Lists in tables?

[Måns]

Hi Sub

> |cell|* list item 1
> *list item 2|
> |cell|cell|
>
> I searched and found 2 hack solutions which are not practicable at
> all.
>
> Is there a proper solution?

Basic tools in TW are macros.
One way to insert multiline content into a tablecell is to use the
tiddlermacro:
<<tiddler TiddlerTitle>> or more detailed <<tiddler
TiddlerTitle##TiddlerSection>> or <<tiddler
TiddlerTitle::tiddlerslice>>

If you want to show a list in a cell you can do it like this:

|<<tiddler TiddlerTitle>>|

where [[TiddlerTitle]] contains the list - or you can put the list in
a hidden section in the current tiddler containing the table - like
this:

|<<tiddler TiddlerTitle##List>>|
/%
!List
*ListItem#1
*ListItem#2
!end
%/

Cheers Måns Mårtensson
(Btw - I'm NOT a programmer - just using TW for everything I can think
of...)
> All these missing BASIC features are the reason why TW will never be
> used by the masses. It's only cool for users who have experience in
> Skriv teksten til 'New Tiddler 'prgramming / webdesign.

[Sub]

Thanks for the reply, but it's just another complicated hack solution
for a simple thing like a list in a table cell.

I'm using TW at work and "solutions" like this are useless since you
cannot seriously explain it to your colleagues.

[HansBKK]

On Saturday, July 9, 2011 8:03:11 PM UTC+7, Sub wrote:

Thanks for the reply, but it's just another complicated hack solution
for a simple thing like a list in a table cell.

I'm using TW at work and "solutions" like this are useless since you
cannot seriously explain it to your colleagues.

Putting a list into a table cell requires such workarounds because it's something that the designers of the web never intended.

You're trying to use a table for layout, trying to get a certain display of your content within a tiddler, correct?

In HTML a table cell is designed to hold a single datum, since a table is intended to lay out tabular data, as in a database table.

You should be using CSS for layout, but that does take a certain amount of knowledge and experience.

Maybe you should be using something like Excel for layout, might be more appropriate for your and your colleague's skill level. . .

[Sub]

Stop guessing purposes and judging other people by single posts on the
internet you troll.

"Putting a list into a table cell requires such workarounds because
it's
something that the designers of the web never intended."

LOL!!

[Eric Shulman]

> Stop guessing purposes and judging other people by single posts on the
> internet you troll.

This is a *very* friendly group. Unlike other groups, many people in
the TW community are quick to offer their assistance, and we do NOT
insult people here, regardless of the questions, or the responses!

You began, reasonably enough, by asking for help from the TW community
to solve a problem you are facing, but regrettably also included some
unneeded negative commentary about how "TW will never be used by the
masses", a statement that is sure to annoy at least some people in
this group.

Then, after a *work-around* solution was presented by @Mans, you
responded in a dismissive and unpleasant manner, calling the offered
help "useless" because *you* feel unable to explain it well enough to
your co-workers.

Even if this work-around doesn't actually help your particular use-
case, you might consider that *other people* might find the responses
informative or useful, even if you don't.

In addition, when @HansBKK offered another perspective on the topic,
he was not judging or disrespecting you in any way. However, after
similarly dismissing his thoughts without any discussion, you
responded with a *personal attack* by calling him a troll.

Frankly, I find *your* the style of communication to be "troll-ish" as
well as being paradoxically both self-defeating (working against your
own goals) AND self-fulfilling (matching your negative expectations)
at the same time:

You ask for help, but respond with negativity that discourages people
from wanting to put in any effort to help you find a simple, effective
solution to your particular problem. This, in turn, reinforces your
perception that TiddlyWiki is "missing BASIC features" and "will never
be used by the masses" because it consists of "complicated hack
solution(s) for a simple thing(s)".

I *strongly* suggest that, before you consider asking this group for
help again, you should post a suitable *public* apology to both Mans
and HansBKK. Then, moving forward, leave the negative attitude "at
the door" and show some basic manners and courtesy when people attempt
to offer their assistance.

Note: if the negativity continues, I will unsubscribe you from the
group and block your posts (something I have, thus far, only done to
*spammers*).

-e
Eric Shulman
TiddlyTools / ELS Design Studios
(and TiddlyWiki/TiddlyWikiDev GoogleGroups administrator)

[Sub]

My inentention of this thread may have been only showing my
disappointment for missing basic features such as lists in table cells
rather than looking for a simple solution.

My first reply to Mans may sound negative because he only wanted to
help (and I thanked him for that) but actually it's only negative
against TW which you of course feel attacked by.

But I def do not apologize for my reply to HansBKK's flame attack
against me.

[Scott Simmons]

Hi, Sub —

 

Assuming you (or someone who comes along later) is interested in a simple workaround, I'll venture mentioning this one:

|first list|•list item 1<br>•list item 2<br>•list item 3|
|second list|•list item 1<br>•list item 2|

I don't think you mentioned which two workarounds you found, but that's the simplest one I know of — and should be pretty easy to demonstrate to anyone who's comfortable with TiddlyWiki.  True, it's not a proper <UL> list — but, as HansBKK explained, embedding a list inside a table cell isn't part of the intended basic functionality of the web.  "Workaround" isn't always a dirty word.

[nemo]

Another solution on the table: The mediawiki tables formatter plugin.

http://devpad.tiddlyspot.com/#MediaWikiTableFormatterPlugin

Mediawiki syntax is arguably as mainstream as wiki syntax gets (though
it does get crazily complex in some cases - much more than anything
I've seen in my own TW usage), and I know from use that it solves this
usage case. :)

.../Nemo

[Sub]

To explain the workaround / colleagues thingy: I do have a clue and
don't mind using hack solutions. I use TW as a shared wiki at work
with colleagues who never edited Wikipedia or used HTML tags before.
It's hard to communicate TW as proper wiki solution when basic
features as this are not supported. Even more when the support forum
replies it's not needed and we should Excel for our website layout
etc...

@Scott Simmons: "as HansBKK explained, embedding a list inside a table

cell isn't part of the intended basic functionality of the web."

I don't think that's the reason why TW doesn't suport this.
It's the old line break problem again imo.

@nemo: Wow! I'm coming from MW so this is extremely useful, thanks!
So proper line-break parsing IS possible!? Would it be possible to to
create paragraphs as MW does?:
Foo

Bar

would return
<p>Foo</p>
<p>Bar</p>

instead of
Foo<br><br>Bar

[HansBKK]

Sub, I personally don't need you to apologize, but do suggest you do your best to take Eric's comments on board for your own future success, not only in this group but online generally.

My comment about the semantics of HTML markup is supported throughout most of the webdev community. I didn't mean to put you down in any way, but was giving an explanation from my POV as to why this shouldn't be considered a "basic" need.

And I was genuinely suggesting Excel as a possible solution, it's something that corporate noobs often find very user friendly, and as we all know it's very common for computer technologies to be be used for things other than what was originally intended.

Good luck with your project. . .

[nemo]

On Jul 10, 11:22 pm, Sub <subfa...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> @nemo: Wow! I'm coming from MW so this is extremely useful, thanks!
> So proper line-break parsing IS possible!? Would it be possible to to
> create paragraphs as MW does?:

To be honest, I don't know.

I added it to one of my TW instances because I wanted to do a few
tricks beyond what TW tables could do (in fact, though I agree with
the 'table cells should be for singular datum' argument, I think I
originally installed because I *was* abusing it for layouts with
lists!)

Beyond that, I've barely used it, generally preferring to keep my
markup as otherwise simple and plain-text like as possible

Best bet would be to install and see what it can do :)

cheers
.../Nemo

[Julian Knight]

Another alternative is to skip WIKI formatting altogether and use a visual editor that inserts HTML instead. I'm pretty sure there is a plugin around somewhere, I know I've used it in the past.