PART TWO: The infinite lightness of not-paying-anyone

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Is ANYONE getting paid here?

I Hope So.

A few people do a LOT of work for nothing.

There is TALK of financial help occasionally.

I, personally, would prefer it was made real.

That actual people, actually got paid, money.

But to pay people you need a WAY to do it.

TiddlyWiki in general is crap at this kind of thought.

People say "yes" but remain in a fog of NOTHING HAPPENS.

I expect this expletive to go down the same lonesome drain.

Best wishes
Josiah

[TonyM]

Josiah,

This has being discussed in the past, Eric Shulman raised some money by crowd source for some documentation in the past. There is always a degree of complexity in these questions given the strong "open source" nature of tiddlywiki. Any derivative work is only possible because of the prior and mostly volunteer work (excluding some support historically). There seems to me to be two areas where it may be helpful to allow/promote financial recompense;

1. Work on tiddlywiki or a necessary plugin for and on behalf of the community
2. When an adaption is created by a TiddlyWiki enthusiast/developer for a third party to do work or to meet a need

I limit this to two as historically the value of tiddlywiki has being in adaptions being returned to the community for open use and I would like to see this continue, and I hope to contribute there myself. In the second case I believe there is some obligation to return any adaption back to the community even if you provided tiddlywiki design as a service, in effect to pay for the platform you are using.

In the second case it may be more appropriate if the fee charged the third party was no more than providing their email address, to obtain access to a prepared  adaption, or by commission to do the work to make a customised adaption, but any advances/plugins/techniques must be returned to the community.

In the first case, it would be nice to build a pot of money perhaps through crowd sourcing that the community could then apply to good works on behalf of the community, but we do not want this to put a dampener on volentary contributions.

As someone currently building a business I would love to include tiddlywiki in some services and solutions but do need to exact a fee so I may earn a "right livelihood".

I would love to hear others perspective or example cases.

Regards

TonyM

[Mat]

Heyo. In midst of vacation here but can't resist popping by the tiddly party.

Is ANYONE getting paid here?

Paid for what? Paid by whom? Are you asking if there's anyone selling services, to "the real world", that involve TW? 

Jeremy is a professional JS developer (maybe I'm using the wrong label here) and I know he tries to involve TW when possible, of course. (We probably have much to thank for this as it gives him opportunity to create TW stuff while getting paid.)

Commercially, fellow member Siniy-Kit has his webshop fully built in TW, which I guess can be seen as "getting paid" in some sense.

The thing otherwise is that "getting paid" typically requires selling. So, the question is probably better phrased as; "Is anyone here selling their TW services/competence and/or any product/service made in TW?"

It is probably a tough competence to sell. Ain't nobody asking for something specifically built in TW, at least not outside of the community. Occasionally there is someone asking for help here and who expresses willingness to pay.

Using TW as a solution to some customer need may be another game. Not always necessary to involve the customer in what exact technology is used to build whatever is needed. But because of TWs limitations, it is probably restricted to small scale endeavors.

Then there's perhaps the most interesting area: Turning some TW based implementation into a commercial product/service. Like an "app". So far I know of no such case. It would be fantastic if TW could be used for this. One problem is that TW is optimized to be the "LEGO kit" that it is - not optimized to be "product X" or "service Y". Take any of the cool plugins or editions... and it would likely be a "better performing" product if it was created from scratch in "real" code (JS or something else) without consideration for everything else that TW is supposed to be able to do. Specialized products or services probably also can't take full advantage of TWs fantastic UI. The extreme dynamism of TW is in conflict with the specialization of applications. Given the extreme competitiveness on the "app markets", specialization and optimal performance is key, as far as I understand.

...buuut, just maybe I am too pessimistic: A main point with e.g WordPress is its modular structure. A general core + a zillion (commercial!) plugins, themes etc. 

Actually, I think the difficulty in commercializing anything in TW comes back to our favourite topic: We don't have the infrastructure for it. Not only do we not have an "app store" but we don't even have a central place for our existing plugins. And our development process is severely "bottlenecked". I would think e.g WP and most other commercially successful projects, or just well known projects for that matter, have a different organization.

Like you, I think the TW project is missing out on tremendous opportunities. The saddest part is thinking about all those developers who would love TW and thrive here but who don't simply because they don't know the project exists because "marketing" is a non-issue here.

...

<:-)

[Lost Admin]

While I very much doubt he is making any money from it, I am reasonably sure that Danielo envisions a service, built around his NoteSelf version of Tiddlywiki, that would compete with the likes of Evernote or Onenote.

After I realized how NoteSelf actually worked, I hoped to create a fully functioning demo of that same concept. Or, at least, my vision of that concept.

[Lost Admin]

Here's an "actual idea". When you say, making money, I assume you mean as in money coming in to our personal bank accounts. What we need for that is a company and a VC that wants to give that company money. to get the VC, we need a "new bubble" concept. Right now the "new bubble" is "machine learning" and "artificial intelligence" and "big data".

So, how do we turn TiddlyWiki in to a "big-data machine learning artificial intelligence internet-of-things" pitch for a room full of VCs? We need a pitch guy. Anybody here a good pitch-guy?

[ste...@gmail.com]

I often wondered whether a paid TiddlyWiki hosting service might work? Like TiddlySpot (which is, thankfully, free), but with https, a better user interface and maybe some nice extra features. Furthermore, it should be easy to create additional TiddlyWikis within the same (paid) account, and to duplicate existing wikis. This way, maybe people in a professional environment could be enticed to use TiddlyWiki in a similar way as Excel sheets (simply create a new wiki whenever a need for note taking, information structuring and/or data sharing arises). 

~~Stef

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao all ...

Stef wrote:

I often wondered whether a paid TiddlyWiki hosting service might work? Like TiddlySpot (which is, thankfully, free), but with https, a better user interface and maybe some nice extra features.

Yes. COMMERCIAL applications of the hosting type might be a runner. Your post party reflects what Lost Admin also commented ...

Lost Admin wrote:
... I am reasonably sure that Danielo envisions a service, built around his NoteSelf version of Tiddlywiki, that would compete with the likes of Evernote or Onenote.
    After I realized how NoteSelf actually worked, I hoped to create a fully functioning demo of that same concept...

This is not exactly what I was meaning, but my post was probably somewhat unclear. AND, these are good points, I feel worth absorbing.

Best wishes
Josiah

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Mat e tutti,

TiddlyTweeter wrote:

Is ANYONE getting paid here?

 

Mat replied:

Paid for what? Paid by whom? Are you asking if there's anyone selling services, to "the real world", that involve TW? 

No. Because they'd already be stepping towards Zone 3 & don't need help.
 

Jeremy is a professional JS developer (maybe I'm using the wrong label here) and I know he tries to involve TW when possible, of course. (We probably have much to thank for this as it gives him opportunity to create TW stuff while getting paid.)

Very much so. He's fully in Zone 3.
 

Commercially, fellow member Siniy-Kit has his webshop fully built in TW, which I guess can be seen as "getting paid" in some sense.

That's a great commercial success with Tupperware, flowers and other stuff. He's well in Zone 3.
 

The thing otherwise is that "getting paid" typically requires selling. So, the question is probably better phrased as; "Is anyone here selling their TW services/competence and/or any product/service made in TW?"

I probably phrased my question incorrectly. It wasn't about Zone 3.

It was about Zones 2 and 1.

Zone 2 is not commercial. Its about supporting essential ENABLEMENT developments. Come next June Arlen's TiddlyServer may be a big part of the TW functional map. Arlen is bold enough to request donations. Money well sent, IMO.

     Donate to Arlen here: PAYPAL - ARLEN.

You could, of course, push him to into Zone 3 by ignoring Zone 2, which would mean easy use of TW at NO cost would end as access to free saving that would need to be paid for. Arlen could charge you per save if he wanted.

Maybe no one yet is fully realising that simple file saving in Firefox and Chrome will END as things stand. IMO it would be best to financially SUPPORT workable alternatives using Zone 2-ers.

Giving to Zone 2 makes sense. (a) its FOR something concrete & important; (b) it helps cement a relationship so that the recipient wants to deliver because they feel materially valued  for the work they do.

You can always ask me about what is Zone 1? ... since you are probably in it :-).

Best wishes
Happy holidays
Josiah

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao TonyM & others interested...

TonyM wrote:

This has being discussed in the past, Eric Shulman raised some money by crowd source for some documentation in the past.

The problem there was I don't think Eric ever got enough money to finish the project. There was no output. That is part of the issue: matching money to requirement.

TW is amazingly productive. BUT I DO NOT think ANY of us really grasp how FEW people are really active. Its an Elephant not in the room enough.
 

There is always a degree of complexity in these questions given the strong "open source" nature of tiddlywiki.

"Open source" is a very rich field now. Some larger projects do get financial support congruent with needs. TW is a small project. It deserves to be much bigger. That is a Catch 22 its caught in. i think that is a big reason why money is not so discussed. Its potentially divisive.
 

... two areas where it may be helpful to allow/promote financial recompense;

 

1 - Work on tiddlywiki or a necessary plugin for and on behalf of the community

 

I agree. In my previous post I refereed to Arlen's work as important because its basic to future saving. I consider it a class case of need deserving support, especially as he asks for it (PayPal Account).
 

2 - When an adaption is created by a TiddlyWiki enthusiast/developer for a third party to do work or to meet a need ...

This is more complicated. In terms of actual things I USE I'd say Thomas Elmiger helped me most so far. But there are many people who have and do everyday, reliably, too. I don't think any of them are seeking money.

But a fund for "between jobs I'll work on TW" is not such a bad idea.

From another angle, its an interesting question I can approach like this: IF a YEAR AGO I had been able to get anyone interested (I tried) to code FOR ME, I would have paid for it.

In the long run it would have been CHEAPER for me to pay 1,000 Euro than spend the hours & weeks I've had to spend working out what is now to me the bleeding obvious.

Best wishes
Josiah 

[HansWobbe]

On Saturday, July 29, 2017 at 3:17:20 PM UTC-4, @TiddlyTweeter wrote:

...

 

But a fund for "between jobs I'll work on TW" is not such a bad idea.

From another angle, its an interesting question I can approach like this: IF a YEAR AGO I had been able to get anyone interested (I tried) to code FOR ME, I would have paid for it.

In the long run it would have been CHEAPER for me to pay 1,000 Euro than spend the hours & weeks I've had to spend working out what is now to me the bleeding obvious.

...

If such a Fund emerges, it would likely be necessary to "manage" it; perhaps in the way that the Wikipedia Foundatrion is set up.  After all, that is the one wiki that has truly achieved (large) "scale" success, since Ward Cunningham this "WikiWiki" thinking.

I believe that one of the factors supporting Wikipedia's success was the capability for Mass Participation, which inevitably requires a lot of people to agree about a lot of things and to feel they are a part of the process and then want to increase their participation.  For most people, TiddlyWiki still seems to have a steep learning curve, without providing enough rewards, to make people really want to controbute their time. 

That is, of course, not the case on this forum where various technical masters have tirelessly donated enourmous hours to helping others learn the technology.

What seems to be missing is our ability to inspire more "lay" people to participate by giving them an easy way to do so, that also helps them learn (easily) how to achieve more, collaboratively.

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Hans & all

One small footnote on one thing you wrote ...

HansWobbe wrote:

... What seems to be missing is our ability to inspire more "lay" people to participate by giving them an easy way to do so, that also helps them learn (easily) how to achieve more, collaboratively.

I think its very hard to inspire a lay audience is you don't have THE PRODUCT on display.

IMO the lack of a decent SHOWCASE gallery for TW that shows what has been done makes it much harder to see the point. "Demos", which are common, don't do what is needed IMO.

We need REPLETE EXAMPLE TWs to look at.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Best wishes
Josiah

[Danielo Rodríguez]

About this topic,

I've was tempted several times to put a tip-jar on any of my TW plugins. But then I though that they are not so awesome and I gave up, maybe because I though that not many people will use it anyway. 

In the case of NoteSelf it is indeed to create a service around it. Not only a service, but an entire ecosystem: online service, android, ios and Desktop apps. And if the amount of users is big enough I'll be forced to put some limitations and ask for money to remove that limitations.

But in order to achieve this I am very clear about the following:

1. It should be an online service with no setup, just sign-in and ready to use.
2. Target users are NOT tiddlywiki users. They are used to customizations, DIY and are too used to the single html file paradigm
3. The product needs a good amount of useful features out of the box, ready for taking advantage of it. This means several plugins pre-installed rather than requiring the user look for them and install
4. Users needs a guidance, a real guidance instead of linking to documentation. Some kind of first steps tutorial , where the user will learn how to do concrete and useful things.

All those steps require a big amount of time and work, and I would love to be able to make a career from them, but I am sceptic about it, and I will be happy with just a service that feeds itself in terms of cost.

Regards

[Eneko Gotzon]

On Mon, Jul 31, 2017 at 3:37 PM, @TiddlyTweeter <tiddly...@assays.tv> wrote:

the lack of a decent SHOWCASE gallery for TW

What I do with T

​W

​​

is private and

​discreet

​, and

 I

​ want, at least at this moment, keep control

 over

​it

.

Tiddlywiki​ (or even Noteself) websites can not be good showcases? Further, t

hey can be communally

​ 

maintained

​

.

If TW gives a good service, if it creates value it is fair and wise to support –pay for– it.​

​Take care.

--

Eneko Gotzon Ares
eneko...@gmail.com

[Eneko Gotzon]

Just thoughts of a humble man

On Mon, Jul 31, 2017 at 4:41 PM, Danielo Rodríguez <rdan...@gmail.com> wrote:

I would love to be able to make a career from them…

​If you know what you do, if you have a good, worthy project you can with talent, a right strategy and supporting team achieve, step by step, your goals.

If you need money you can try to get public –or even private– funding. 

Our European societies need and must develop digital services and products. There are local, national, state, and international funding programs for digital entrepreneurs.

​Take care and be wise.

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Danielo

I see your thinking here clearly. Whether its viable commercially is not so clear yet. But perhaps it could be. I am not sure that can be answered without trying to do it.

One of the problems you highlight is the need to get away from bits-and-pieces messy DIY in order to present a cogent finished product with clear aims & as faultless function as possible. As far I can see one needs a service with minimal cost that provides good all-round service to do what users want. But "what users want" in such a service is a very different agenda than that here. Its a different world?

I think the overall idea is likely very real. But how to shift from "here" to "there" is maybe not so easy. I myself wouldn't do something like that without a business partner heavily focused on marketing potential.

Best wishes
Josiah

Danielo wrote ...
... I am very clear about the following:

1. It should be an online service with no setup, just sign-in and ready to use.
2. Target users are NOT tiddlywiki users. They are used to customizations, DIY and are too used to the single html file paradigm
3. The product needs a good amount of useful features out of the box, ready for taking advantage of it. This means several plugins pre-installed rather than requiring the user look for them and install
4. Users needs a guidance, a real guidance instead of linking to documentation. Some kind of first steps tutorial , where the user will learn how to do concrete and useful things.

All those steps require a big amount of time and work, and I would love to be able to make a career from them, but I am sceptic about it ...