[TW5] swarms of tiddlers

[Tobias Beer]

I have come to think of the mechanism that yields plugins as a more general concept of bundling tiddlers to be reused and repurposed for different usecases, like a bundle or a "swarm of tiddlers"... rushing from one place to another.

For example, there could be a "wikitext" swarm or a "widgets" swarm moving about tiddlywiki.com which one could easily import into ones tiddlywiki... if not only into some community documentation project... only to ammend that bugger, yet still having the shadow displayed underneath.

At some point it would be really neat if it was possible to send ones swarm looking for updates at home, returning back with updates ...without going to the remote site to manually fetch them with a brailer.

Anyhow, here are instructions on having tiddlers form swarms...

http://tiddlywiki.com/dev/#How%20to%20create%20plugins%20in%20the%20browser

Best wishes, Tobias.

[Alex Hough]

How about a 'shoal' of tiddlers to continue the fish metaphor?

Alex

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[Mat]

On Monday, December 8, 2014 1:10:00 AM UTC+1, Tobias Beer wrote:

I have come to think of the mechanism that yields plugins as a more general concept of bundling tiddlers to be reused and repurposed for different usecases, like a bundle or a "swarm of tiddlers"... rushing from one place to another.

I think that when we eventually develop ways to measure how plugins and other mechanisms are used, then we will be able to identify clusters of commonly used tiddlers and functions. Then we could hopefully exctract the common denominators and package these as separate entities for effective reuse. The thought is very appealing, not to mention very, very tiddlish.

BTW, I believe this "identification of clusters" will also be very valuable for us to build specialized application TWs, (which incidentally I think will show out to be a key factor for spreading TW).

For example, there could be a "wikitext" swarm or a "widgets" swarm moving about tiddlywiki.com which one could easily import into ones tiddlywiki... if not only into some community documentation project... only to ammend that bugger, yet still having the shadow displayed underneath.

At some point it would be really neat if it was possible to send ones swarm looking for updates at home, returning back with updates ...without going to the remote site to manually fetch them with a brailer.

Anyhow, here are instructions on having tiddlers form swarms...

http://tiddlywiki.com/dev/#How%20to%20create%20plugins%20in%20the%20browser

The mention of swarms and clusters awoke a memory of the past, when TW 10.0 was introduced. Pretty amusing to read even if I must say that dude is some rambler and I don't even understand half of his babble. Interesting to note that we've so far come half the way (TW5 instead of 10) but according to the plan described there it is obvious there will be a twexplosion happening in 2015!

While on the borderlands;

Another concept I've been thinking about, inspired by Danielos TiddlyDrive project, is that maybe it would be possible to have the core at some place (tw.com) and in your own computer you really only have your content and style tiddlers. You open the remote core (in your local browser) and it pulls your locally stored tiddlers. For one thing, users wouldn't have to bother with updates.

In a way I'm wondering if this shouldn't be possible almost now? To load a tw node.js version on tw.com (which is thus temporarily stored on my local computer)... and then visit a local tiddler folder via this. Hm, I'll ask @Jeremy. Unless anyone here knows?

Such a setup would be particularly usable for the aforementioned "application TWs". It could be a bit like tiddlyspace; There is the core. Application developer A, with a special interest in, say, math remote-includes the core into this "math application TW" which resides on any accessible place, be it tw.com or google drive. End user B 'remote-includes' this math appliction and locally fills it with his own content. Or end user B locally 'remote-includes' both core and the application. End user B doesn't have a to be a specialist at setting up the "math TW" but can again focus on content.

(I didn't just describe tiddlyweb, did I?)

And, kind of reversed, there could be "application community sites"; Take e.g a "blog application TW": Another person D sets up a, um, "pointer" to application developer A's "blog application" and adds his (i.e D's) own cutsey decoration and additions, turning it into a "music community blog application". Really just a niched display window dressing. Then individuals E who want to be part of that community, shares public tiddler folders with D that D provides a pretty and public window for. E can focus on content, while D has added not only the presentation of that content but also functions at a hub of many music enthusiasts potentially reaching out to more people than individuals E could alone.

Tiddlers on the loose, swarming around everywhere.

So, Tobias, we rely firmly on you ;-)


<:-)

[Jed Carty]

The swarms or tiddlers for accomplishing single tasks is hopefully the next step after the simple single application premade/no learning editions I am working on. Since the idea came up here, how do people like the interface and what sort of applications should be added? Or should I drop this and come up with a better way to do it?

The idea is that each part of this could be split into its own wiki edition/plugin (or tiddler swarm) that can be imported to other wikis.

http://nolearningrequired-full.tiddlyspot.com

[Tobias Beer]

Hi Jed,

 

The idea is that each part of this could be split into its own wiki edition/plugin (or tiddler swarm) that can be imported to other wikis.
http://nolearningrequired-full.tiddlyspot.com

Right, that's what I'd call swarms. There's a home location, some origin, where they emerge, going out in the workd.

Now, one could jump ahead and call all that a "plugin", and for some things that would be the appropriate term.

But that "plugin" word has a heavy connotation and implies some developer background and responsibility, if not just versioning, specs, documentation, etc... whereas a basic swarm pretty much had some origin indicator and a datestamp of its creation, with a lot less expectations attached to it in terms of providing the most stable experience... could be just some funny noise, a friends photo-album, a collection of jokes or quotes... Contacts have always been things people wanted to use in TiddlyWiki, effortlessly... so, if you want to call that a plugin or not, I don't know.

What I do think is that the ecosystem might have a certain boost if people were thinking more in terms of sharing swarms or bundles of tiddlers... some of those bundles are functional things called plugins or themes, other's are really content-templates, dictionaries (think flashcards), all kinds of useful or simply shared bundles that were made such to facilitate exchanging them.

Right now, we do have those tiddlers with a field "plugin-type:" and that could be populated with a value of "swarm" ...or whichever word best indicates that we're talking about a more losely defined bundle, rather than some official plugin / theme / language... it could stay empty ...simply some form of "shared package"... and, as for me, chances are you want them listed first, because in terms of your actual wiki contents, they might just hold the reference content most relevant to you.

Best wishes, Tobias.

[Mat]

On Tuesday, December 9, 2014 1:37:10 AM UTC+1, Jed Carty wrote:

The swarms or tiddlers for accomplishing single tasks is hopefully the next step after the simple single application premade/no learning editions I am working on. Since the idea came up here, how do people like the interface and what sort of applications should be added? Or should I drop this and come up with a better way to do it?

The idea is that each part of this could be split into its own wiki edition/plugin (or tiddler swarm) that can be imported to other wikis.

Ok, this aim is not to me yet obvious as I look at the page. Could you describe this aim a bit more?

I imagine something like this could perhaps be in the form of either a simple checklist where the user ticks whatever he wants and then clicks import. Or, perhaps a wizard asking questions and ending up with a "you should have this" answer. I like the latter because then particularly the ones you seem to aim this at, i.e newcomers, can go "So, I'm a math student  - would this be something for me? Oh, it suggests TW-LaTex and Taskgraph!" instead of getting a lot of irrelevant stuff.

AFAI can tell, it is not obvious that one can, or how to, download specific parts of you TW. Maybe this bit will come later? BTW,  do you have any critera for which "applications" go into this,that they're supposed to be able to choose from?

I particularly like the way you've "packaged" things so that it's a feature tiddler and behind/tabbed is e.g the "add new" form. Neat with both gathered in one tiddler so to say.

<:-)

[Birthe C]

Hi Tobias

I really like the idea of swarms. There are bees in swarms and it is easy to get stung. With swarms of different origin would that not be a risc?

A guide to how to make those swarms would really be nice.
Because the more available swarms around for all different kind of purpose, the better the idea.


Birthe

[Tobias Beer]

Hi Birthe,

 

I really like the idea of swarms. There are bees in swarms and it is easy to get stung. 

With swarms of different origin would that not be a risc?

Definitely, but we all can and have to chose our own protective measures, being careful about what bundles we're importing and what sources we're trusting, etc...

 

A guide to how to make those swarms would really be nice.
Because the more available swarms around for all different kind of purpose, the better the idea.

Right now, making a "swarm" is really the same process as making a plugin, only just there's not necessarily any executable js in it:

http://tiddlywiki.com/dev/#How%20to%20create%20plugins%20in%20the%20browser

Not sure which fields are ultimately required, but simple "swarms" I don't know if the requirements shouldn't be somewhat more lose.

Best wishes, Tobias.

[Jed Carty]

Tobias,

That is a good point about needing a distinction between a plugin and a swarm is probably important. I imagine that there are probably many distinctions like that that may be important.

Mat,

Currently that page is just a demonstration of the different functions. I am hoping to collect use cases that can fit into that format that I can include (so I am open to suggestions!). The only single use version I have posted is the contacts database (http://nolearning-contactsdb.tiddlyspot.com/)
Jeremy had mentioned the possibility of including some individual functions like the contacts database as an edition on the main page. At the moment the only way to get the specific parts is to manually import the tiddlers. Now that I am looking at it the only place that actually has that information is the other site I am working with (http://inmysocks.tiddlyspot.com/#Dashboard look at the 'adding functions' tab)

But following what Tobias said, I can hopefully just package them together into a swarm without much trouble and make it much simpler.

[Michael Wiktowy]

On Tuesday, December 9, 2014 7:35:40 AM UTC-5, Tobias Beer wrote:

Definitely, but we all can and have to chose our own protective measures, being careful about what bundles we're importing and what sources we're trusting, etc...

 

A guide to how to make those swarms would really be nice.
Because the more available swarms around for all different kind of purpose, the better the idea.

Right now, making a "swarm" is really the same process as making a plugin, only just there's not necessarily any executable js in it:

http://tiddlywiki.com/dev/#How%20to%20create%20plugins%20in%20the%20browser

Not sure which fields are ultimately required, but simple "swarms" I don't know if the requirements shouldn't be somewhat more lose.

I found a lot of the online collections great for finding out what can be done but not so great for modular reuse. I have had to re-implement from scratch in most cases.

The GNOME3 desktop has an architecture that is js/css-based I think. They also have a pretty cool ability to just go to a webpage and download and locally "enable" plugins within the desktop (by flicking a virtual switch in the webpage) that fundamentally changes the UI or add features. Perhaps this web-based repository is a model that TW5 can adopt.  Where you have a "plugin|add-on|add-in|swarm|module" tab in the settings that accesses a set of tiddlers online and pulls them in and caches them locally when they are "enabled" somehow. Some combination of transclusion of _canonical_uri and cloning might achieve this with the repository simply being a specifically structured TiddlyWiki file online somewhere.

/Mike

[Michael Wiktowy]

On Tuesday, December 9, 2014 7:35:40 AM UTC-5, Tobias Beer wrote:

Definitely, but we all can and have to chose our own protective measures, being careful about what bundles we're importing and what sources we're trusting, etc...

 

A guide to how to make those swarms would really be nice.
Because the more available swarms around for all different kind of purpose, the better the idea.

Right now, making a "swarm" is really the same process as making a plugin, only just there's not necessarily any executable js in it:

http://tiddlywiki.com/dev/#How%20to%20create%20plugins%20in%20the%20browser

Not sure which fields are ultimately required, but simple "swarms" I don't know if the requirements shouldn't be somewhat more lose.

[Chris Dent]

On Monday, December 8, 2014 11:32:36 AM UTC, Mat wrote:

Tiddlers on the loose, swarming around everywhere.

This is pretty much exactly the metaphor that I've been hoping the TiddlyWeb API I would enable. 

[Tobias Beer]

Thinking about swarms more, I am pondering if the newly introduced export machanism may actually provide the groundworks to render a link from the advanced search / filters tab which allows you to grab all matches at ones and drag them over to another TiddlyWiki, thus forming "ad-hoc swarms", not within packaged shadows, but individual tiddlers, so to speak.

Would be neat, though, if each would at least ship with some nest-id so as to indicate their origins in terms of where they were last bundled... although a blurry concept indeed but perhaps better than none.

Best wishes, Tobias.

[Mat]

@Chris
Probably not a coincidence - I have most likely been influenced by blog posts of yours, and specifically remember reading about your fascination with the individual tiddler rather than the whole TW. BTW how would you say your TANK project manifests this vision? (I am not a member there).

<:-)

[chris...@gmail.com]

On Wed, 10 Dec 2014, Mat wrote:

> Probably not a coincidence - I have most likely been influenced by blog
> posts of yours, and specifically remember reading about your fascination
> with the individual tiddler rather than the whole TW. BTW how would you say

> your TANK <https://tank.peermore.com/> project manifests this vision? (I am
> not a member there).

On the surface Tank is mostly just trying to be a simple page-oriented
wiki but it has a few features (beyond those already provided by
straight TiddlyWeb) with which it tries to make the swarms of individual
and collections of tiddlers a bit more available:

* The auth model + full CORS support makes it fairly straightforward
for other interfaces and web services to do CRUD operations on
tiddlers. You can create named revokable keys which you can "give"
to various applications or tools.

* There is a thing call the policy manager[1] which makes it easier to
adjust the policy settings on individual bags so that you can easily
say what users can do what actions on the bags. Support for recipes
is pending.

* Tiddlers are easy to move between tanks.

* Compositions[2] make adding additional functionality (both simple[3]
and complex[4]) a matter of putting the right things in the right
place.

* Like tiddlyspace there are websocket notifications and atom feeds of
most everything, so other systems can be easily made aware when
stuff happens.

Properly functioning CORS support was a bit of a struggle to get
right, but it goes a very long way to making it possible to build
things _elsewhere_ that happen to use tiddlers that are kept in tank.

The features list is worth gazing at:
https://tank.peermore.com/tanks/docs/Features

[1] https://tank.peermore.com/tanks/docs/Policy%20Manager

[2] https://tank.peermore.com/tanks/docs/composition

[3] https://tank.peermore.com/tanks/journalizer/index
https://tank.peermore.com/tanks/bookmarker/index

[4] https://tank.peermore.com/tanks/tw5/index

--
Chris Dent http://burningchrome.com/
[...]

[Chris Dent]

On Thursday, December 11, 2014 at 10:49:27 AM UTC, Chris Dent wrote:

Properly functioning CORS support was a bit of a struggle to get
right, but it goes a very long way to making it possible to build
things _elsewhere_ that happen to use tiddlers that are kept in tank.

I thought I should annotate this posting with a link to instructions I left in the TiddlyWeb group about how to set up a simple TiddlyWeb server configured with cors to work with a file-based TW5: https://groups.google.com/d/msg/tiddlyweb/UcYrnvGwNUQ/UJRgSn4VjfYJ