TiddlyWiki user engagement

[PJO]

I dip in here now and then, and I'm sure I'm not the only person who does so. 

It's hard to keep track without checking in more frequently than I usually have time for. To give an example: I thought I saw a pinned message a while ago indicating that anyone using TiddlySpace needed to backup their TWs as it was closing. Now I see references to it as if that hasn't happened? So, do I search on TiddlySpace and go through posts? 

I wouldn't have to do this if there was a TiddlyWiki newsletter, which could of course be hosted on a TiddlyWiki, with some summary info of, e.g.

• Core developments
  
• New plugins
  
• Issues discussed in the google group
  
• New applications with links
  
• Other Notes
  

I'm sure I'm not the only person who gets newsletters and reports periodically, by email, that get converted into tiddlers (one of my most useful applications of TiddlyWiki; saves having to wade through Word files later to write up project reports).

Suggestion: a TiddlyWiki newsletter hosted in TiddlyWiki would be good. Alternatively, a blog with tags corresponding to topics such as I've enumerated. Either way, with user surveys as a regular feature (see the Distrowatch weekly e.g.)

If I can make a Linux analogy, TiddlyWiki feels rather like a rolling release like Arch. For years now the most successful distributions (Linux Mint, Ubuntu and many derivatives) have followed a six-monthly release cycle with long term support versions every 2 years. I appreciate that that cadence might not suit many who show up here, but it does have advantages in terms of having stable releases for documentation and issue tracking. Maybe the Linux kernel is a better analogy -- it goes through point revisions all the time, and what version is incorporated is in part a function of the timing of the release of a new distribution.

In any case, a key benefit of this splitting updates into what in Debian terms is "stable" (long term support) and "testing" (latest) releases is that people can install which ever suits and then tune in to what they need to know with corresponding frequency. Those to whom stability is paramount can pick an LTS release and forget about tracking breakages and fixes for a good while--apart from anything that needs to be backported (security fixes in particular).

My impression is that the TW community is fizzing with creativity but that the TiddlyVerse, to coin a word (if it hasn't been coined), is that it's not as accessibly organized and structured for new users who are not developers and occasional updaters (like me) as it might be. This is an observation and not a complaint.

There have been some interesting discussion of TiddlyWiki "journeys" which I think reflect some of the same perceptions but I am not sure what actions if any have or may result -- I'd have to start reading posts when a newsletter or blog would keep me informed more conveniently and perhaps flag something I might be able to contribute to without having to stay abreast of everything (which I have to say an impressive number of people seem to do, and new people too, which is great).

Suggestion: TiddlyWiki would benefit from some comparison with other open source projects and borrowing of good practices regarding user engagement, and then making some deliberate choices based on community feedback

Some examples, just picking a few things that come to mind that I actively like about some other projects (not at all an exhaustive comparison)

Linux Mint:

• The Mint community solicits donations and publishes information about the money received. I give money every month because I use it and I get satisfaction from supporting the remorseless improvement of a truly fantastic public good.
• There's a developer blog: segfault.linuxmint.com ; also useful for people to keep an occasional eye on what's coming
• The home page at linuxmint.com provides links to all the important resources at a glance and is attractively presented; I hope nobody will be offended if I say that TiddlyWiki by comparison has seemed as if trying harder to explain what it is, using TiddlyWiki, than in providing an at-a-glance link to ALL the key resources. I apologize if this is unfair, it's a subjective impression. I know it's improved a lot but I have wondered if the having to be its own showcase has been a straightjacket.
• The software itself tells you that updates are available and they're easily installed (true of most distributions of course)
• Documentation exists in many languages

An interesting question perhaps: What would persuade you to make an annual contribution to TiddlyWiki?

WeeWX:

This is an application that interacts with a weather station and which publishes data and graphs to databases and web sites (weewx.com). I use it on a raspberry pi to run a small web site for my weather station.

• There are TWO Google Groups: one of developers and one for users. I think this works well and improves the focus and reduces the traffic for both
• The web site has a world map showing where users are located. I've yet to contact anyone near me but it's interesting and I like knowing.
• Users can and do contribute extensions which they can document and provide links to via a wiki maintained in github (community curated documentation)
• WeeWX sites are themeable; (I used to use TiddlyThemes, now sadly a site for WordPress stuff. I've lost track of what's doable now with TW)

It's a much less active project but somehow the size of the radar needed, if I can put it like that, is small, and the presentation of information to users is, overall, exemplary.

I could enumerate others; the point is not criticism, but just to suggest that it might be useful to collate ideas on what people find valuable about other projects and then see if there are things that could be borrowed and how to go about making those decisions. Maybe it's worth making the governance and decision making process clearer? I confess it's not something I have actively sought to apprehend but my equally casual understanding of that for Joomla, Ghost and others is clearer. This may be my fault and maybe it doesn't matter from a software development POV, but I think it does when it comes to many other things (release management, support, documentation, translation, user engagement etc.).

In short, I think what TiddlyWiki needs is more organized, structured attention to all the things besides the code and that certain difficulties arise from that being moving target, among other things. Anyway, I'm happy to see discussions here about how to make TiddlyWiki more accessible.

[Riz]

Hi fellow mint user!!

Technically most of what you mentioned  is here.

Alternatively, a blog with tags corresponding to topics such as I've enumerated.

Have you had a chance to drop into https://www.reddit.com/r/TiddlyWiki5/ ? If you can volunteer, I heard the guy running that thing needed more hands on the deck.

There's a developer blog: segfault.linuxmint.com ; also useful for people to keep an occasional eye on what's coming

Corresponding part will be https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5/pulls ? Then there is always Pre-releases to test the up and coming features: http://tiddlywiki.com/prerelease/

TiddlyWiki by comparison has seemed as if trying harder to explain what it is, using TiddlyWiki

Technically linux mint is using a website because linux mint is not a web-oriented service. That will be apples and oranges comparison.  A comparable example would be something like BananaDance Wiki or MediaWiki or dokuwiki.
Yes, resources can take a little bit of work and exposure. But hey, it is there

The software itself tells you that updates are available and they're easily installed (true of most distributions of course)

Which would require the software to ping the mother-ship. Don't give them ideas.

Documentation exists in many languages

 

 http://tiddlywiki.com/prerelease/#Languages with a lot more coming and the translation is something people can chime in.

There are TWO Google Groups: one of developers and one for users.

Here is the developer group : https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/tiddlywikidev

Users can and do contribute extensions which they can document and provide links to via a wiki maintained in github (community curated documentation)

Users can and do contribute extensions which they can document and provide links to via a wiki maintained in github  -  https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5/pulls. I wish it didn't have to be github. Nevertheless it is there.

The web site has a world map showing where users are located.

Isn't that a tiny bit creepy? I always found it a little bit creepy.
 

There is a nascent SE forum underway so that we can conduct discussions more effectively. There is a twederation project actively developed by Mat and Jed for a Social Network platform. 

I think what TiddlyWiki needs is more organized, structured attention to all the things besides the code and that certain difficulties arise from that being moving target, among other things.

There - no questions. Whole hearted agreement.

Riz.

 

 

[Tobias Beer]

Hi PJO,

 

It's hard to keep track without checking in more frequently than I usually have time for. To give an example: I thought I saw a pinned message a while ago indicating that anyone using TiddlySpot needed to backup their TWs as it was closing. Now I see references to it as if that hasn't happened? So, do I search on TiddlySpot and go through posts? 

That was TiddlySpace! May I suggest you edit your OP to remove that bit entirely so as to not furhter confuse other users?

Best wishes,

Tobias. 

[PJO]

Not a redditer and no time for that, sorry. Overall, your response (and thanks btw) just adds to the plethora of TW sites. I guess my feeling is that TW is all over the shop and it would be better off bringing as much as possible under one roof, except for the code. 

I searched Google Groups on TiddlyWiki and didn't find or overlooked Tiddlywikidev; thanks for pointing it out. Now there's that and Reddit and StackExchange and this is progress? I'm not convinced yet. And these things aren't even on the TiddlyWiki home page, which was explicitly part of the point of the comparison with Mint and which doesn't arise from any technology differences.

> Mediawiki etc.

I understand the distinctions your trying to make and I appreciate the difference. My point was wondering whether TW has perhaps hobbled itself from the user engagement POV by not using a wiki (and discussion forum with file sharing) with user authentication alongside TW. Perhaps this is heretical? 

> a twederation project

As an occasional user here, not monitoring a blog or a newsletter, I don't have any idea better than a guess what this about and there's nothing on TiddlyWiki.com about it. The first comments I could find in Google Groups were from someone saying he couldn't understand it. If I can be blunt this is one of the things that's a bit wearying about TiddlyWiki -- fragments of information all over the place (many of which, historically, have not survived) and no proper structured communication that would provide an alternative to stepping into the river here and watching everything that goes by. I don't have time, and I don't think TiddlyWiki is going to scale as it could if that doesn't change.

Overall, I was suggesting stepping back and looking at other projects not just going on adding more different sites. I realize that some throwing mud at the wall and seeing what sticks is part and parcel of how FOSS works but ... 

Maybe it's time for some stocktaking? But if everyone is ok with the current situation I'll get my coat.

> map for users

Indeed, a map for users would be creepy if it disclosed anything about them without consent. However, it's an opt-in map of weather stations and people who run weather stations are often interested to check their records against other stations once in a while. The only thing necessarily disclosed is "there's a weather station here running WeeWX software".

Raspberry Pi groups and others use maps to let people see where there may be birds of a feather. Most discussion forum software has optional profile info. So, maybe not that creepy, but indeed, maybe not all that relevant. I was just mentioning some things I like. The map could be a show case or register of sites compiled by users by embedding data in a wiki. The intended thrust of my remarks about WeeWX was how nicely everything was presented (although also using Google Groups and github!) and findable from the home page. 

The last thing I want to do is snark about commendable efforts people are making now. Instead: discuss whether there are things worth borrowing in terms of approaches to user engagement that might be worth accommodating in the context of a fresh start or reorganization rather than accretion.

[PJO]

Thanks for catching that. Fixed. 

[PMario]

On Wednesday, January 18, 2017 at 3:59:19 PM UTC+1, PJO wrote:

I dip in here now and then, and I'm sure I'm not the only person who does so. 

It's hard to keep track without checking in more frequently than I usually have time for. To give an example: I thought I saw a pinned message a while ago indicating that anyone using TiddlySpace needed to backup their TWs as it was closing. Now I see references to it as if that hasn't happened? So, do I search on TiddlySpace and go through posts? 

TiddlySpace is gone, that's why the pinned post is gone too.
-m

[PJO]

I understand. My point was just that it would be nice to get headline news in a digest form to stay abreast of news without checking in here all the time. 

How long before some pops up here asking about happened to TiddlySpace?

[Thomas Elmiger]

Hi PJO

When I read your posts I am impressed by your will to contribute innovative ideas and by your metaphorical language, so allow me to answer in the same way—maybe this will sound strange as English is a foreign language for me. You make the impression of a man walking up in the mountains, stepping into a river in his coat, watching some leaves floating by and complaining about the fish that are not jumping up in his pockets, while down the stream they have great bridges so your feet don’t get wet and fishing nets and heated pools ;–)

Now, maybe it could be rewarding to dive into the river to see some fish that have been swimming against the stream for a while … e.g.

Jeremy’s call for updating the community resources on tiddlywiki.com for the next release: https://groups.google.com/d/msg/tiddlywiki/mILsOWLlWXg/Ex0rr1LADAAJ

Moans from other users about poor documentation with 100+ contributions: https://groups.google.com/d/msg/tiddlywiki/R5Ml_P8IO5g/riy-XGloBQAJ

A very short dialogue about funding and TW: https://groups.google.com/d/msg/tiddlywiki/UIbK0XEDODc/7fFWx2HkCwAJ

I can imagine you don’t have time for that. But if you had the time, would you consider to sum your findings up and write a newsletter about it? I am sure you would find many readers here.

So the last thing I want to do is to steal the worms from your hook or, in other words, to slow you down, where you have ambitions to improve or to add something. Just take your coat of, grab a shovel and go ahead!

Cheers ;–)
Thomas

[PMario]

On Wednesday, January 18, 2017 at 3:59:19 PM UTC+1, PJO wrote:

I wouldn't have to do this if there was a TiddlyWiki newsletter, which could of course be hosted on a TiddlyWiki, with some summary info of, e.g.

• Core developments
  

see: It's in "dev speak" :) http://tiddlywiki.com/#Releases  but it's all there ;)

• New plugins
  

see: It's in "dev speak" :) http://tiddlywiki.com/#Releases  but it's all there ;)

 

• Issues discussed in the google group
  

That's close to impossible. This would be a full time job. 24h a day. 

• New applications with links
  

see: http://tiddlywiki.com/#Community ... but it needs pull requests from the community.

• Other Notes
  

see full time job.
 

I'm sure I'm not the only person who gets newsletters and reports periodically, by email, that get converted into tiddlers (one of my most useful applications of TiddlyWiki; saves having to wade through Word files later to write up project reports).

I'm sure everyone would like this. It's just a matter of resources. ... Even if a wealthy sponsor would like to throw several 100k at the project, we don't have a legal framework in place to deal with it. .. Which would / should be a separate thread by the way.

have fun!
mario

[PJO]

Hi Thomas,

That made me laugh. Indeed, you are right, in any language (English is also not my first language but I get by). The Chinese say that a man will have to stand for a long time with his mouth open before a roast duck flies in. But all these links to things I haven't had time to keep up with do, I think, underline my point. 

Of course, I didn't really mean that any one person should sieve the entire set of posts here and prepare a newsletter for the people who don't have time; a Sisphyean task indeed as has been noted. I was really just trying to articulate some of what I find frustrating and make some suggestions, knowing very well that I have not read what may be better ideas (and apologies for that as appropriate). I wasn't fishing for a suggestion that I go off and do something myself, so much as seeing if the suggestions had any resonance and if so discuss some collaborative possibilities with anyone interested.

What I could do, indeed, is review the documentation posts you've linked to and see if I can synthesize something and, perhaps, do a survey using, say, Google Docs. I may have missed it but I haven't seen anything like that done. But from my perspective what I'd like to see is not so much better documentation, as in "how to" materials, but better communication, especially for casual users. 

Cheers,

Paul

PS I hope you did get the expression "I'll get my coat" was a joke; code for "I've said something embarrassing, so I'll leave now".

[Chuck R.]

All I'd like is a web page showing features of the standard out-of-the-box TW5 with some screenshots, then TW5 with add-ins with screen shots. Pretty pictures are important to get people to try something. We will also need examples of how people use TW5. I'm willing to have a link on my blog for this but I need someone to make a single web page first.

Maybe I'll make a page like that, and ask for sample pages so I can grab a screen shot of them.

[Thomas Elmiger]

Hi Paul

That made me laugh.

Great! My text worked as intended :–D
 

… discuss some collaborative possibilities with anyone interested.

Let’s swim together!

What I could do, indeed, is review the documentation posts you've linked to and see if I can synthesize something and, perhaps, do a survey using, say, Google Docs.

A survey would be a new and good way to collect feedback on priorities of people in the community! (Recently there was someone asking in the group about usage of TW in companies … I think a formal survey is much better suited for such questions than an open question and a discussion here.)
 

PS I hope you did get the expression "I'll get my coat" was a joke; code for "I've said something embarrassing, so I'll leave now".

Thank you for making that clear, I was hoping so but not totally sure. But here the fault is obviously on my side: my English is still too bad :(

Kind regards,
Thomas