Scripture tiddly wiki 5 examples

[Marc Ferguson]

I am trying to make a simple scripture using tiddly wiki 5 so people can use it to add notes and reflections.

I would sure like to see some examples that might be out there to see how others are doing similar projects.

There is such great knowledge amount this group.

Thanks

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[Scott Simmons (Secret-HQ)]

HI, Marc —

I don't have anything to share, but I've often thought TiddlyWiki would make a great vessel for scripture, with its various atomic parts and different translations.  I keep hoping someone else will do the grunt work of putting all the text into a TiddlyWiki.  :)

[Hegart Dmishiv]

Hi Marc,

I can imagine this becoming a massive undertaking, as Scott alludes to in his "grunt work" comment above. I envision individual tiddlers for each and every verse in the scriptural text, such as the reputedly 31,102 verses of the English language version of the King James Bible. That's quite a few tiddlers. From there you'd need a further 1,189 to transclude those verses into chapters, and a further 66 tiddlers to tansclude those chapters into books. That would take quite a lot of effort, and that's just for one scriptural text. I imagine if you wanted your TiddlyWiki to be able to compare texts, you could multiply that effort out exponentially.

As an example of how this would work; as part of my exercise answers for a {{DesignWrite}} course exercise, I've created a traditional essay template, which makes extensive use of transclusion to construct an academic essay from, based on the explanation of academic essay structure from my alma mater. Such a structure is puny in comparison to the idea of a scriptural TiddlyWiki you propose here, but the methodology could be similar.

I've also begun implementing a reference knowledgebase in my {{DesignWrite}} exercise answers, to capture notes and quotes in, similar to the existing TiddlyWiki for Scholars project, which you might also like to take a look at.

Also, when working with such a large volume of data as you propose, you might like to consider using JSON to import the pre-made tiddlers in bulk from a spreadsheet, as we did in this {{DesignWrite}} exercise. Using this method, I recently imported 470 tiddlers in one hit into my TiddlyWiki.

Hegart.


PS. See also this tiddler, where I describe the implementation of some of these techniques in my {{DesignWrite}} exercise answers.

[Arlen Beiler]

The grunt work could be very easily automated using a simple script to load text files, as the text files are readily available in a computer readable format.

On Feb 26, 2016 5:42 AM, "Hegart Dmishiv" <hegart....@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Mark,

I can imagine this becoming a massive undertaking, as Scott alludes to in his "grunt work" comment above. I envision individual tiddlers for each and every verse in the scriptural text, such as the reputedly 31,102 verses of the English language version of the King James Bible. That's quite a few tiddlers. From there you'd need a further 1,189 to transclude those verses into chapters, and a further 66 tiddlers to tansclude those chapters into books. That would take quite a lot of effort, and that's just for one scriptural text. I imagine if you you wanted your TiddlyWiki to be able to compare texts, you could multiply that effort out exponentially.

As an example of how this would work; as part of my exercise answers for a {{DesignWrite}} course exercise, I've created a traditional essay template, which makes extensive use of transclusion to construct an academic essay from, based on the explanation of academic essay structure from my alma mater. Such a structure is puny in comparison to the idea of a scripture TiddlyWiki you propose here, but the methodology could be similar.

I've also begun implementing a reference knowledgebase in my {{DesignWrite}} exercise answers, to capture notes and quotes in, similar to the existing TiddlyWiki for Scholars project, which you might also like to take a look at.

Hegart.

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[ben]

Relatively little grunting required, see:

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/tiddlywiki/6H1xh8mjnMI/WC6s0H7ny4kJ 

Ben

[Marc Ferguson]

That's what I am doing

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On Feb 26, 2016, at 2:51 AM, Scott Simmons (Secret-HQ) <goo...@secret-hq.com> wrote:

HI, Marc —

I don't have anything to share, but I've often thought TiddlyWiki would make a great vessel for scripture, with its various atomic parts and different translations.  I keep hoping someone else will do the grunt work of putting all the text into a TiddlyWiki.  :)

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[Marc Ferguson]

For what I am doing I think I'll do it by chapter. I am feeling if I want my users to really make it their scriptures that it has got to be very simple. 

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[Marc Ferguson]

Thank you for your comments. As I move forward I will share. 

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On Feb 26, 2016, at 3:42 AM, Hegart Dmishiv <hegart....@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Mark,

I can imagine this becoming a massive undertaking, as Scott alludes to in his "grunt work" comment above. I envision individual tiddlers for each and every verse in the scriptural text, such as the reputedly 31,102 verses of the English language version of the King James Bible. That's quite a few tiddlers. From there you'd need a further 1,189 to transclude those verses into chapters, and a further 66 tiddlers to tansclude those chapters into books. That would take quite a lot of effort, and that's just for one scriptural text. I imagine if you you wanted your TiddlyWiki to be able to compare texts, you could multiply that effort out exponentially.

As an example of how this would work; as part of my exercise answers for a {{DesignWrite}} course exercise, I've created a traditional essay template, which makes extensive use of transclusion to construct an academic essay from, based on the explanation of academic essay structure from my alma mater. Such a structure is puny in comparison to the idea of a scripture TiddlyWiki you propose here, but the methodology could be similar.

I've also begun implementing a reference knowledgebase in my {{DesignWrite}} exercise answers, to capture notes and quotes in, similar to the existing TiddlyWiki for Scholars project, which you might also like to take a look at.

Hegart.

[Marc Ferguson]

Thanks for this. I can see how this individual verse approach is the ultimate way to go. 

Is there a way to link to specific paragraphs in an individual tiddler so that I could cross simply cross reference from one tiddler to a portion of another. 

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[Scott Simmons (Secret-HQ)]

On Friday, February 26, 2016 at 7:45:08 AM UTC-5, ben wrote:

 

Relatively little grunting required, see:

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/tiddlywiki/6H1xh8mjnMI/WC6s0H7ny4kJ

Awe-SOME.  I knew someone out there had to have tackled the heavy lifting (at least in part) before.  :)

[Scott Simmons (Secret-HQ)]

On Friday, February 26, 2016 at 11:50:45 AM UTC-5, Marc wrote:

Is there a way to link to specific paragraphs in an individual tiddler so that I could cross simply cross reference from one tiddler to a portion of another.

As far as I know, TiddlyWiki5 doesn't support anchor tags like that.  :(

You could, perhaps, tranclude individual passages into "discussion" or "commentary" tiddlers, though.  E.g.,

These are some thoughts/notes on John the Baptist.  He shows up several times in the New Testament, like when Jesus is baptized:

>{{Matthew 3:13}}{{Matthew 3:14}}{{Matthew 3:15}}{{Matthew 3:16}}{{Matthew 3:17}}

[Greg Davis]

Hi,

I've been working on something like this off and on for some time. There are sources for text like the example give earlier. I'm taking a somewhat brute force approach. There are a couple of very early examples of my thoughts on appraching this, been focused on entering the content rather than the external shell.

a Quran: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/sh/jtg16zfgbb5gol1/AADseamis2LVl7nMFM9e82jma/quaran-three.htm#Title%20Page

a Bible: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/sh/9gfy8yeogq6n4u8/AABrSAPZ4l0f1mRxSp_sHU-Fa/kjv-bible.htm

Matthew and Mark slightly different appraoach to dispaly. Working in HTML on the idea that might convert to an EPUB.

Attached example template JSON for adding content, extra lines to cover largest chapter/surah.

Good luck!
Greg

On Friday, February 26, 2016 at 11:50:45 AM UTC-5, Marc wrote:

[Marc Ferguson]

Thank you. 

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<chapter-new-template.json>

[Marc Ferguson]

Too bad about anchor tags that is exactly what I was hoping for. Thanks

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[Jed Carty]

As an exercise to learn perl a while ago I took a bible from project Gutenberg and split it into tiddlers and tagged it by verse and chapter and stuff. I can see if I still have the code tomorrow. There isn't much grunt work as far as that is concerned.

[Marc Ferguson]

Great. Thanks

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> On Feb 26, 2016, at 4:06 PM, Jed Carty <inmy...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> As an exercise to learn perl a while ago I took a bible from project Gutenberg and split it into tiddlers and tagged it by verse and chapter and stuff. I can see if I still have the code tomorrow. There isn't much grunt work as far as that is concerned.
>

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[Jed Carty]

I think I got bored and stopped working on it, and I can't find any of the output, but here is what I still have:

This perl script:

open(TEXT, "<pg10.txt") || die "flaming doom\n";

open (FILE, ">>bible.json") || die "problem opening bible.json\n";

print FILE "[\n";

my $book;

while(<TEXT>) {
    if ( $_ =~ /^\D{2,}/ ) {
        $book = $_;
    }
    if ( $_ =~ /^(\d*)[:](\d*) (.*.)$/ ) {
        print FILE "{\n";
        print FILE "\"chapter\" : \"", $1, "\",\n";
        print FILE "\"verse\" : \"", $2, "\",\n";
        print FILE "\"title\" : \"", $book, " Chapter: ", $1, " Verse: ", $2, "\",\n";
        print FILE "\"text\" : \"", $3, "\",\n";
        print FILE "}\n";
    }
}

print FILE "]\n";

close(FILE);

close(TEXT);

given the plain text version of the king james bible from project gutenberg here http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/10/pg10.txt should create a json file that has the tiddlers in it. At the moment they have a field that lists the chapter and a field that lists the verse and the tiddler title should be in the form  'bookname chapter: n verse: y'

I am sure you can find whatever bible version you want as a similar plaintext file online and it shouldn't be too difficult to modify the script to do things like add a field for the version so you can make it all easily searchable.

[Marc Ferguson]

Thanks

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[Marc Ferguson]

Thanks

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On Feb 27, 2016, at 5:58 AM, Jed Carty <inmy...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Greg Davis]

Don't know what happened to the first post, try again.

Just an update for those interested in a KJV Bible in TW. Still have some cleanup to do, but have the complete New Testament now. Must sort out a few things and will then post the JSONs. Moving on to entering the Old Testament. Sample from Genesis included.

For now:
for the base bible layout use Advanced Search Filter for the tag: bible and save as a json.
for the New Testament use Advanced Search Filter for the tag: new and save as a json.
for the Left Menu use Advanced Search Filter for the tag: leftmenu and save as a json.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/sh/9gfy8yeogq6n4u8/AABrSAPZ4l0f1mRxSp_sHU-Fa/kjv-bible.htm

If you find any mistakes or problems, please let me know.
Greg

Edit 2017-0224

Since Dropbox doesn't display the TW as a web page anymore this is just to add a link to the current version on TiddlySpot for anyone looking at this old thread.

http://kjv-bible.tiddlyspot.com

Life intervened and haven't added much in Old Testament.

Greg

[Marc Ferguson]

Wow. This has taken a great effort!  I need to look at it more carefully and get back to you. 

Thank you for remembering me. 

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On May 30, 2016, at 6:03 AM, Greg Davis <gregdav...@gmail.com> wrote:

Don't know what happened to the first post, try again.

Just an update for those interested in a KJV Bible in TW. Still have some cleanup to do, but have the complete New Testament now. Must sort out a few things and will then post the JSONs. Moving on to entering the Old Testament. Sample from Genesis included.

For now:
for the base bible layout use Advanced Search Filter for the tag: bible and save as a json.
for the New Testament use Advanced Search Filter for the tag: new and save as a json.
for the Left Menu use Advanced Search Filter for the tag: leftmenu and save as a json.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/sh/9gfy8yeogq6n4u8/AABrSAPZ4l0f1mRxSp_sHU-Fa/kjv-bible.htm

If you find any mistakes or problems, please let me know.
Greg

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[Josiah]

Its a very interesting project. You don't need to be Christian to appreciate the effort that has gone into it.

Though not yet complete it does illustrate that TW5 is well capable of handling very large complex texts very well.

I do suggest that you add a bookmarking or favoriting plugin so readers can find their favorite verses quickly. There is one here if you want to experiment: http://favorites.tiddlyspot.com/

Best wishes
Josiah

[Greg Davis]

Example of a large complex text.

Took the template JSONs that are being used for creating my KJV Bible and built an empty bible. None of the actual verses, just short place holders. Comes in at 10MBytes.

the empty bible - https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/sh/9gfy8yeogq6n4u8/AADLLrnysbegzvLxEQYy9Ed9a/empty-kjv.html

a zip with all the required JSONs - https://www.dropbox.com/sh/9gfy8yeogq6n4u8/AABbXbyiph5lelRo1xgZKdt8a/empty-king-james-bible.zip?dl=0

If someone wants to take this brute force path to a bible it is a matter of copy and paste, each verse, from the source into the chapter JSONs replacing the placeholders. Something I did/do in spare time in front of the television.

This basic approach could be applied to other books.

Enjoy,
Greg

Oh, @Josiah, bookmark / favorites a good idea. Probably will not try to do it myself but may include a note pointing to plugins like the one you mentioned.

[RichardWilliamSmith]

Hi Greg,

I have also previously spent many (many, many) hours of laborious copy-pasta - I find it kind of soothing in a strange way, but there is also something very satisfying in figuring out how to automate away a lot of the pain. 

I don't know if you saw it already, but I made an old testament last year by manipulating spreadsheets - https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/83055414/kjv.html 

I also think the approach has a lot of potential for plays ( http://macbeth.didaxy.net/) - we can imagine, for example, printing out the lines for each player to learn, or annotating the play with stage and lighting directions. Also, one could stamp the lines with multiple time-stamps, to sync them with video of the play from different performances.

These were both highly automated, which doesn't mean they were necessarily quick to make, because I still had to set up the process before I could use it. On the other hand, when I made this maths textbook (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/83055414/Active_Calculus_v0.1.html) I had to do an embarrassing amount of manual labour to make it look right.

I reckon what we really need in order to make a series of books is a pandoc converter that can write wikitext (http://pandoc.org/)

Regards,

Richard

[Marc Ferguson]

By chapter is my thought too. Thank you for your work. 

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On Jun 1, 2016, at 3:10 PM, 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki <tiddl...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

The work is a lot easier if you just enter entire chapters at once. At 4 chapters a day (perhaps as part of your regular reading) you can complete it in less than a year.

I'm not sure if breaking it into verses is worth the effort. Having it in verses means that it will be really large, and might not work on tablets and portable devices. The whole book, imported by chapter, comes out to about 6 megs in a modern language version which is just manageable on tablets.

Mark

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[Marc Ferguson]

I think that this could replace Ebooks and make them much more functional. 

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[Jed Carty]

I am slightly horrified at the thought of manually copying and pasting each verse. This is something that you could automate using perl or a similar coding language and it would probably take less time to learn and implement than doing all the copying manually.

[Marc Ferguson]

 I don't understand how each verse being its own tiddler can help individuals own what they read and note  what they feel inspired by. 

The people I work with have scriptures full of highlights, notes, and little slips of paper through throughout. 

That's what I have too. I was hoping for a simple tool to annotate single verses to multiple chapters and related chapters and verses and scholar's quotes. 

I got to stress simple with as little coding as possible.  I don't know how so many tiddlers can help. Obviously I am not a coder and I doubt if most the potential users of TW will be. 

I think this is a great product but seems to be limiting itself to advanced users. 

Please just help me understand.  

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On Jun 3, 2016, at 9:39 AM, Jed Carty <inmy...@gmail.com> wrote:

I am slightly horrified at the thought of manually copying and pasting each verse. This is something that you could automate using perl or a similar coding language and it would probably take less time to learn and implement than doing all the copying manually.

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[Mark S.]

In general I would agree with you, since the size of the Empty Bible made verse by verse is larger than the size of an entire Filled Bible done chapter-by-chapter.

However, I can see some advantages. You could go to an individual verse and add your own comments below, perhaps in backtick mode for highlighting..  That could be done in edit mode, or maybe by having something like a sticky note associated with each verse (http://stickynotes.tiddlyspot.com/). You could tag verses in ways that were meaningful to you (Favorite, Family, Materialism, etc.)

I think some of the size could be reduced by eliminating the reference links that are currently embedded in each verse. They don't need to be there -- the chapter display can generate them on the fly. That should save 60 characters per verse or a little more than (recalculating) a megabyte for the entire Bible. Darn. Not as much difference as I hoped.

Mark

[Mark S.]

Javascript itself is probably the equal of those other languages. I'm working on a way to automate this process somewhat in TW, though I'm not actually convinced of the value of the verse-by-verse approach. I'm thinking about filling it up with the WEB, which, as far as I can tell, is the only modern language English version in the public domain.

The work-flow would be to grab a chapter, and using regular expressions or other techniques, massage it so that each verse is in this format:

nn:And when they arose early in the morning, there were ...

where "nn" is the padded verse number. Those verses are copied to a data tiddler called "Incoming". A generator  tiddler (which I've mostly written) would then allow you to create each verse by clicking on a button. I'm also thinking that the chapters could be rendered with a template, saving on file size, and that the verses don't need to have the references embedded into them. It might also be possible to eliminate the "book" field from each verse, by using some sort of lookup.

Which brings me to my question. There's now a way to delete lots of tiddlers at once. Is there any way to create lots of tiddlers at once? All the techniques I've found use a button to launch an activity that creates a single tiddler (or multiple tiddlers if you hardcoded what you wanted in advance) but I haven't seen anything that would let you create them all at once in a list or similar construct.

Clicking on a button for each verse doesn't take long, but it doesn't seem like it should have to be necessary.

The other possibility, which I've used with the CSV2TW converter, is to have a tiddler make a "picture" of what the importable verses would look like in JSON. Then the picture could be copied to a JSON file and dragged and dropped into the Bible TW. This would eliminate verse-by-verse clicking, but would require the steps of copying into an external file and dragging back into the target TW.

Thanks,
Mark

[Mark S.]

This is a generator Kit to help import verses into Greg's Bible structure.

If you try it, you definitely want to save your existing Bible into a back-up. I've imported 10 chapters of Exodus from the open-source WEB bible rather than the KJV.

You start by importing the kit and then reloading the document (you have to reload because it includes a javascript macro).

After importing, hopefully you'll see that the book of Exodus has appeared. It should have 10 chapters in it.

Using the search engine, find the "Generator" tiddler. This is the main work tiddler for operations.

To create a new chapter, start by filling out the form and creating a RAW (data dictionary) tiddler using the button below. You will paste your dictionary data into the tiddler that appears.

Your data should be massaged to be in the form:

n1: rest of verse
n2: rest of verse
...

where n1..n2 are padded to 2 places (Psalm 119 will need 3 places). I use some emacs regular expression tools to help me with this.

Select your raw input from the drop down and a list of verse buttons will appear.  You need to press each button to generate the verse. This happens about as fast as you can click, so it's not too bad. Also generate the chapter header by clicking on the create chapter button.

Things that I have changed (that I know about) from the original:

• Chapter headings contain just a template -- it just occurs to me that a view template could be used.
• I've eliminated the "book" field from verses.
• I've eliminated the verse reference from verses -- the links get generated by the template in the chapter heading
• I've eliminated (for the time being) the "list-after" field for the chapters and am using the "list" field instead for sorting.
• I haven't done the special formatting like Greg has that indicates when God/Jesus is speaking.
• I haven't included the foot notes that are available with the WEB bible.
  

People can look at this and see if it improves processing time. For me, the processing in Emacs takes about 40 seconds per chapter. Then it's about 1 second per verse inside of TW. Not as fast as loading everything at once, admittedly

Mark

[Greg Davis]

Hi Richard,

Yes, I remenber. Had the large cross and tabbed contents if I recall correctly. I was trying to figure out the format I wanted to use and considered yours but went off in a bit different direction. One feels a more intimate conection to the text when working at that level. Closest as I'll come without getting into the Greek or Hebrew.

I know something like PERL or PYTHON might be easier but it has been almost thirty years since I did any programming and I'm not quite inclined to get into it again. There are probably a couple of easier brute force methods than the one I'm using but I've got the framework now.

Best Wishes,
Greg

[Greg Davis]

Hi Marc,

Well, looks like I stirred up some discussion on this topic.Yes there cold be simpler ways of getting the text into a JSON to load into TW but it will not be formatted.

I'm not just doing straight text. In NT added words of Christ in red. I'm adding italics for the words added by the translators to make reading easier than a straight translation would be. Also adding superscript markers for alternate translations, shows tooltip (Genesis 2:13+14), and notes, short version in tooltip longer in actual linked tiddler. Find it easier to work on a chaper's JSON for the intial simple formatting rather than having to do that in TW.

Notes are handled like regular verses, adding 200 to verse number, so show up at end of chapter in sequence. For example Genesis 2 in the partial version I put up:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/sh/9gfy8yeogq6n4u8/AABrSAPZ4l0f1mRxSp_sHU-Fa/kjv-bible.htm#Genesis%20-%20Chapter%202

Note in this example the related verses in the NT are transcluded into the note.

Intial Design choices:

Leaned toward HTML because had the idea might convert to an EPUB but TW let me try it out. Would TW markup saved some space, perhaps. But there would still have been links and classes used in the markup too.

Links available on each verse or note: Click the link to access to verse or note to edit, modify, whatever. A note added to a verse tiddler would show up inline with the scripture.

Multiple ways to identify individual verses. Verse title, or using fields. Each identified by bookname, book order within whole bible, chapter number and verse number. Allow fine tuning LIST to display selected verses as used for each chapter.

Initially built chapters using a long list of transludes. Notes would have been added directly to the chapter between transcluded verses. Didn't find that very satisfying.

Design over reach, maybe. I felt access to individual verses would give the most flexibility. Custom grouping of verses could be made by transcluding the required verses, however the user might choose.

Other plugins might be used like Josiah suggested for bookmarks or favorites, or the @Tobias Beer's Preview and Appear plugins.

That's all, just tossing out some ideas.

Maybe some more work will be done to get us closer to a TW Bible.

Keep on talking,
Greg

Wrote this before coming back and seeing the work by Mark S. , I'll have to take a look at it.

[Greg Davis]

Hi Mark S.

WOW that was fast! If a clean RAW format like you are using is available that would be fast for getting in the base text.

Tried out in a clean TW 5.1.11 with my base bible loaded. Loaded Exodus like you said.

Noticed one thing in the TOC, Chapter 10 comes before Chapter 2. I believe this is TW sorting alphabetically instead of numerically. That is why I included the field with a three digit verse number.

For a quick test I loaded two chapters of Matthew from the Revised Version. Chapter 2 and chapter 10. Again 10 came before 2. I think that confirms the TW sort problem.

Also other issues in Matthew Chapter 10. Verse 34 is out of place at the end of the chapter and is incomplete. Editing, I see the missing words have become fields. I think this is because there is a colon in the text being interpreted as a delimiter/separator. Don't know if there is an escape character iin your interpeter.

CORRECTION: What I get for working this late. Verse 34 was my mistake. Was looking at things a little longer before shutting down realized I had a semicolon after 34 instead of a colon. Deleted the RAW file and reloaded the corrected file and verse 34 was where it belonged. I have NOT updated the attached files. The other issues are still there. Sorry Mark.

Also all the verses in chapter 2 and 10 are tagged OT WEB instead of the NT RV that I put in??

It was a great first pass at making this generator. Might be useful in other applications too.

Best Wishes,
Greg

Test files attached:

[Mark S.]

Hi Greg,

I used the "list" method to force sorting in the Exodus example. Previously you had used the "list-after" field to force sorting (at least in Genesis). I could probably add "list-after" to the generator, but this was easier for now. I was bit winded, actually.

There was a mistake in the Generator tiddler making it write in hard-wired tags. The attached version should fix that. I'm sure there's lots of other things that need tweaking.

Thanks!
Mark

[RichardWilliamSmith]

Hi Marc,

Your original question got a bit lost here, I think. The answer is that of course there are easier ways to use Tiddlywiki and the way to do so depends on just what you would like to do. If you haven't seen it already, I suggest that you take a look at the work of David Gifford, who has been a prominent contributor over many years (you can search his name on the forum). David has made the best use of Tw for working with scripture that I have seen.

For my part, the point of working with individual verses was more about stress-testing Tw than through any strongly held belief that this was a good way to make the book, although there are some benefits which flow naturally from doing so - for example, the fine-grained search that it provides.

Regards,

Richard

[Marc Ferguson]

Thanks Richard. 

I understand where you are coming from. 

For me it is not getting the text into TW but having something that is really usable for me and my students. 

Sorry for the rant. I wish I had the skills that you and others have. My big wish is that it was possible to have anchors inside tiddlers so they verses could be referenced directly by novice users rather than trying to have each verse trams life's. 

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[Mark S.]

This is one of the changes between TW and TW5 -- the theory that tiddlers should contain little bits of information rather than larger chunks of data sectioned into accessible bits. I think the latter approach more closely reflects how most people would prefer to work, but what can you do?

Anyway, once the text is populated, it should be fairly easy to add some way to associates notes with each verse (maybe like sticky notes). This will allow a person to personalize their text similar to how you would in a dead-tree book.

Mark

[RichardWilliamSmith]

If you want to work with large chunks of data, sectioned into bits, it probably still makes sense to build a system that uses individual tiddlers as the fundamental units. The alternative is to have a two-teir heirarchy where individual chunks are referred to by "container + identifier", meaning that they can no longer be addressed individually at all and creating all sorts of conundrums (conundra?) about what to do if a chunk gets moved to a new article, or into multiple articles. Transclusion probably becomes 8x more complicated too.

IMHO the 'philosophy of tiddlers' is correct as an underlying approach to handling the information and what we need to consider are mechanisms that we can build on top of that to serve the needs of end users. You may have seen Jeremy's tentative foray into this area with the test-slicer (plugin, edition?). I'm interested in this area of development, even though I don't have any pressing need to use it myself and I occasionally spend time trying to think of a neat solution. I think one of the tensions at the heart of the issue, which was touched upon in other recent forum threads, is the dual role of the title field as both the human-readable title of a piece of writing, as commonly understood, and it's role as the primary key in the data-store.

Sorry, this is a bit of topic.

Regards,
Richard

[Marc Ferguson]

I understand but I still think tw5 is the way to go. Here is a list of things I want to easily do and that I think users should  be able to do without getting into coding. 

Scripture notebook actions 

- Highlight (Several colors)

- Underline

- Bold

- Strike through

- Italicizes

- Insert [thoughts in brackets]

- Annotate

- Chain

- Refer to other scriptures and quotes or talks or videos

- Define

- Illustrate 

- Pronunciation

- Bullet 

- Number

- Hyperlink

- Project

- Share (email)

- Contribute to a group version

- Print

- Title and subtitle

 

You may not know what all of these actions are but this is my first crack at a list of user requirements. 

Thanks for your input on this project. I could see this as much more like a working document. I could see TW notebook version of textbooks being extremely valuable in learning situations. 

I have another TW notebook that I used for years to document the activities of a Boy Scout group. When I stopped being the scoutmaster I simply sent it to the new leader. It was great. 

Marc

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[Marc Ferguson]

That gives me a better idea of the underlying principles. With the scriptures I was placing the basic text in the TW and allow myself and others to use the basic text to create small tiddlers that can be manipulated to the hearts content. 

I would think that anchors would allow the novice users to do it easier. 

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[Mark S.]

I spent way too long trying to put KJV text into form for the data Generator before I realized that the form the KJV data is formatted lends itself almost perfectly to manipulation by regular expressions.

Here's the books of Esther and Job, from the Gutenberg KJV, if anyone is interested to see how they look. I suppose I should figure out how to re-activate my dropbox account.

Mark

[Mark S.]

The philosophy may make some sort of sense in the context of server-based wikis or other systems with unlimited resources or with shorter documents. But TW5 has no indexed optimization, and the bigger it gets, the slower it gets. Each tiddler that is created has a substantial amount of overhead adding to the overall size of the file. This really adds up in a big document like the Bible. This is why an empty Bible done verse-by-verse can be nearly twice as big as a filled Bible done by chapter -- maybe even a lot larger since the example of "Empty" given here doesn't have placeholders for the OT (I think).

Mark

[Mark S.]

Given your long list, it might be that TW5 isn't the right venue for you. Have you looked at Evernote? Most everything (that I understand) on your list could be done in EN. Certain things like collaboration and email either can't be done or can't be done easily in TW.

Another possibility would be a PDF version of the Bible with annotation software (PDF-Xchange is really good for this).

There might even be existing Bible software out there that can already do all that.

The coming version of TW5 will be able to most of the formatting items on your list -- but not as WYSIWIG.

Good luck!
Mark

[Richard Smith]

It's true that the file gets bigger, obviously, but the main point of my test was to assess how much it slows down by with a large structured text and the answer is 'not much' - the document I compiled had around 23,000 tiddlers and was quite useable. There are some exceptions to that.

Part of the issue that we face in discussing what tiddlywiki can do and what it should do is the difference between how the core works and how the UI can be made to work. The way I think of it is that TW is a tool for making tools, so the user-requirements of someone like Marc are interesting to me because they help me to think about the kind of tools I might make.

When the file size grows, you are actually getting something for your megabytes - even though the document doesn't contain any more content, it does contain more information, obviously, about the way the content is structured. I suppose it's like the difference between the size of a file in an an image editor like GIMP, which might be ten times or more the size of the exported image, because it contains much more information than just what colour each pixel is, even though that's all anyone will ever see directly.

Anyway, file-size itself isn't much of a concern for digital documents - the real potential overhead in having so many tiddlers is one of increased cognitive load in dealing with them all. If we can hide the complexity, then I'm confident that the benefits of the 'philosophy of tiddlers' will be evident. With the Bible, for example it's only by splitting the text up into individual verses that we can 'tell' the computer what constitutes a verse and it can infer much more (how many verses, arranged how, verses containing a particular word etc.)

Regards,
Richard

[Marc Ferguson]

Thanks. 

I love the single file idea so it is easy to share and not tied to the internet. 

For now I will continue with TW. As a teacher it makes sense for me. 

I don't need all of those requirement to be met to have a working tool to meet my needs. 

Hope still lives and I think that TW is doing some good. Thanks for your efforts. You are all touching lives. 

Marc

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[Marc Ferguson]

Thanks Richard. 

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[Marc Ferguson]

I am an instructional designer and so I am much more concerned about the user interface and the end user. 

All that you are doing with the core application flows downhill to benefit the end user and you are all doing great things. However, not everyone that can benefit from TW will be able to do what you do. We end users have got to be able to use it and make it our own in simple ways. 

Thank you for all that you are all doing just remember us little guys at the bottom of the hill. 

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On Jun 5, 2016, at 5:10 AM, Richard Smith <richardwil...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[Greg Davis]

See a whole lot more discussion to catch up on.

@Mark S, just let you know the new Generate.json did take care of the Tag problem.

Did a little experimenting and see at least simple formating like italics can be added this way, see attached Jude1-RV.txt.

Also, don't know if you have finalized your method for using Lists to order your chapters. Came up with an alternative using list-after but with your ChapterTemplate. It is generic because not sure if you have finalized your abbreviations for testament and bible version. So will have to use search and replace for "TestamentAbbr" and "VersionAbbr" in attached JSONs, chapters-NT-4-MAS-format.json and chapters-OT-4-MAS-format.json. Have not tested much because lack chapter texts, but seemed to work for your original Exodus chapters, my Matthew and Jude chapters.

Hope that helps if you need it.
Greg

[Mark S.]

Hi Greg,

I'm trying to understand what the advantage of the list-after approach is. To me it looks like it means that there are an additional 40 characters that have to be added to each chapter.  But the same thing can be accomplished just by inserting the ordering list in the parent tiddler (i.e. the Book name) Having to calculate a list-after field for each chapter certainly makes importing a lot more complicated.

Yes, you should be able to add formatting if you want to the dictionary. But the gutenberg original text that I'm looking at doesn't have any formatting that I can see.

Thanks,
Mark

[Mark S.]

I found my dropbox account.  Here's Greg's KJV bible plus 3 books of the OT (Genesis, Job, Esther) and some tools (which you can find by looking for tag "MAS").

https://www.dropbox.com/s/2n4qgh6skshzvtq/kjv-bible.html?dl=0

Mark

Edit 1: Warning: My Genesis is different than Greg's - Greg had some nice formatting on the first (10) chapters which would have been wiped out by my import. If I had been thinking, I would have only brought over chapters 11 - 50. Maybe later I could replace the first 10 from his original TW.
Edit 2: Exodus
Edit 3: Psalms. Found a bug in Genesis. Fixed, I think.
Edit 4: Joshua
Edit 5: Judges
Edit 6: Ruth, 1 Samuel, Proverbs
Edit 7: 2 Samuel, 1 Kings, Daniel, the Minor prophets (though not all have the sorting LIST field in yet).

On Thursday, February 25, 2016 at 3:54:15 PM UTC-8, Marc wrote:

I am trying to make a simple scripture using tiddly wiki 5 so people can use it to add notes and reflections.

I would sure like to see some examples that might be out there to see how others are doing similar projects.

There is such great knowledge amount this group.

Thanks

Sent from my iPhone

[Marc Ferguson]

Wow. Thanks. Lots to look at!

I will get back to you with questions. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 5, 2016, at 1:29 PM, 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki <tiddl...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

I found my dropbox account.  Here's Greg's KJV bible plus 3 books of the OT (Genesis, Job, Esther) and some tools (which you can find by looking for tag "MAS").

https://www.dropbox.com/s/2n4qgh6skshzvtq/kjv-bible.html?dl=0

Mark

On Thursday, February 25, 2016 at 3:54:15 PM UTC-8, Marc wrote:

I am trying to make a simple scripture using tiddly wiki 5 so people can use it to add notes and reflections.

I would sure like to see some examples that might be out there to see how others are doing similar projects.

There is such great knowledge amount this group.

Thanks

Sent from my iPhone

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[Josiah]

Ciao Mark S.

Genesis Bugs?

lol. Yep. That's where all the trouble started! :-)

Josiah

On Sunday, 5 June 2016 21:29:32 UTC+2, Mark S. wrote:

I found my dropbox account.  Here's Greg's KJV bible plus 3 books of the OT (Genesis, Job, Esther) and some tools (which you can find by looking for tag "MAS").

https://www.dropbox.com/s/2n4qgh6skshzvtq/kjv-bible.html?dl=0

Mark

Edit: Warning: My Genesis is different than Greg's - Greg had some nice formatting on the first (10) chapters which would have been wiped out by my import. If I had been thinking, I would have only brought over chapters 11 - 50. Maybe later I could replace the first 10 from his original TW.

Edit 2: Now includes Exodus

Edit 3: Found a bug in Genesis. Fixed, I think. Added Psalms.

[Josiah]

Richard Smith

As far as i can see the way you built your version makes optimal use to TW5's love of fragments for purpose (i.e. the fundamental verse units). That is reflected in the performance.

Josiah

[Josiah]

Marc & all

I really like this thread.

Its dealing with CONTENT.

It seems to me that MASS conversion of Gutenberg texts into a reliable TiddlyWiki JSON importable format file (using regex, or better a full featured Grep engine) is not beyond reach. In fact, very close.

Its interesting to think that through further IMO.

Josiah

[Mark S.]

The Gutenberg KJV text is almost ideally suited for conversion with regex of some type -- every verse has it's own id in exactly the same format.

Looking at Shakespeare texts , on the other hand, at least in my quick sampling, the formatting is very scatter-shot. It appears that the original documents were scanned, but the output never corrected. In some cases entire conversations might be mixed up like a paragraph. So you not only have to import the data, but you have to do original hand-formatting and fixing. If you wanted it broken down line-by-line, you would have to apply your own numbering system as well.

Mark

[Josiah]

Ciao Mark S.

I just looked at the Gutenberg Complete Shakespeare http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/100/pg100.txt

I see your point. It has bizarre stuff in it. Its a mess. It is not well laid out either.

I think what is needed is a regex PRE-process that samples texts to see if they follow a defined standard rigorously. That is one idea.

That texts could be converted to JSON format for TW import I think still holds but clearly some kind of quality control is needed. BUT if it ends up having to be document by document its pointless.

Josiah

[Richard Smith]

I agree it's interesting to consider mass conversion of texts from Gutenberg - at least, it would be good to imagine a tool that lets someone easily choose a standard e-text, import it and then clean it up. 

If you are just looking for clean versions of the texts, you can search for, eg; "shakespeare in a spreasheet" and you may be surprised at how many people have already done this :)

https://datahub.io/dataset/william-shakespeare-plays/resource/514d3c17-8469-4ae8-b83f-57678af50735

http://spreadsheetpage.com/index.php/file/king_james_bible/

Regards,

Richard

[Marc Ferguson]

A bunch of what you said was beyond my skill level. But I am excited to see what is possible. I am willing to do the boring work if someone can walk me through it.  

Thanks for you efforts. 

Marc 

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[Mark S.]

That's interesting. If you had text, from any source, which was preceded like the Gutenberg Bible by an identfier like

bbb:ccc:sss

where bbb is book (or major heading), ccc is chapter, and sss is stanza (or verse), accompanied by a list of names of books by number, then it should be possible to use a modified version of the converter macro I'm using to bring it over. However, I'm sure there would be additional requirements, especially regarding tagging.

The spreadsheet is very close. It would need some work to clean up and some executive decisions. For instance, what to do with the stage instructions which are included but not numbered. There's also chunks of text  spread out into columns for no apparent reason.

Thanks,
Mark

[Mark S.]

For those who don't follow the google groups web forum (and thus don't see the edits)  about half the KJV OT is more or less complete (some need the chapter list field filled in) at :

https://www.dropbox.com/s/2n4qgh6skshzvtq/kjv-bible.html?dl=0

I'm using an approach that I used in converting CSV to TW -- using a javascript macro to apply all the regex expressions and convert the contents of one tiddler-book into a format that can be cut/pasted as json and then dragged back into the TW. I'm sure someone who knew the export innards of TW could find a way to make those steps unnecessary.

Mark

[Marc Ferguson]

Wow!

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[Chuck R.]

Sorry if I'm late to the party but there are text-only versions of the bible. There are at least 6 versions to download for free from bibletext.
From there you can import the text of each chapter into TW somehow. I assume each chapter would have to be broken down into chunks.

[Greg Davis]

Mark S.

Impressive work, almost a complete KJV now. Great to find someone with the javascript and regex knowledge, interest and time to push this toward completion. Your generator would be a great help in creating other versions too.

Greg

[Mark S.]

Ok,KJV OT loaded, though the sort lists for the books are not all in place. I am sorely tempted to leaveth that as an exerciseth unto the student (breaking into KJV speech mode here).

https://www.dropbox.com/s/2n4qgh6skshzvtq/kjv-bible.html?dl=0

It's a little more than 10 megs at this point. It takes about 5 seconds to save. This should give people a chance to decide if the by-verse approach is worth the performance penalty.

Doing all this has gotten me thinking about a different approach. Possible all the verses could be kept compactly in data dictionaries. The chapters would display and look just like they do now. But when you wanted to see an individual verse, you would click next to the reference and the verse tiddler would be created on the fly. So only the verses you actually needed to have out would be turned into tiddlers. They could even be deleted, but the annotations stashed away. Something to think about.

Another thing, as I worked, I missed having the open tiddler on the side. I think that that would be useful for someone wanting to put two verses together or hop quickly between texts.

Mark



Mark

[Mark S.]

Here's the final version, in json form of the kit I used to convert whole books of the Bible.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/hp5kwo5jqarkkw3/Project_Verses2TW_v01.json?dl=0

The kit contains the following tiddlers:

Incoming2
Verses2TW: Launcher
Verses2TW: Macro

This kit should probably be run from a TW different from the one that will hold your verses. The macro in this kit has an embedded list of the books of the Bible, so that will need to be tweaked if you want to run it on Shakespeare or something.

• Load the JSON, save, and reload to activate the javascript macro
• Copy/paste into Incoming2 verses from Gutenberg. Copy just the verse parts -- not the preamble and post-amble.  I was able to load as many as 3 books at once.
• Copy the resulting JSON-formatted text from the Launcher.
• Paste into an external file using your favorite text editor and save with a .json extension. Don't allow any extra carriage returns before or after the pasted text.
• Drag and drop the json file into your Bible TW.
• If all goes well, your Bible TW will offer a list of tiddlers with verses to import. If everything looks OK, click on "import".

Mark

[Mark S.]

I've updated the KJV Bible to include an example of what I was thinking about in terms of annotations. I've added sticky notes from stickynotes.tiddlyspot.com. Each verse can have a sticky note. The note shows up at the chapter level if it exists.

Look at Ezekiel chapter 1 to see an example of it in use. Maybe this can be a springboard for thoughts about more ways to personalize the text. I have some ideas about collecting verses and pasting them into reference boxes for quick cross-references. Maybe a system for starring favorite verses (basically just easy tagging).  Maybe a search box that would let you do searches within subsets (OT, NT, Pauline epistles, other categories).

Mark


https://www.dropbox.com/s/2n4qgh6skshzvtq/kjv-bible.html?dl=0

[Rizwan Ishak]

Did you make any changes/upgrades after you last posted?

[Marc Ferguson]

I have a functional version that meets my needs. 

However I am using it to document my notes and use it to teach so all of the great transclusion methods aren't what I need. The creation has been cut and paste by chapter with commentary in line or by linking to other pages. 

I understand that it is against  basic thinking about TW but I still wish there was an easy way to link to anchored text in a tiddler. 

There are so many good and simple uses of TW that I still think it is the best thing for my purposes. 

Thanks for reminding me to report my progress. 

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