.. To give an example of a question I could not answer without referring to here: "How do you append to a list a title with spaces using a text reference?"
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Hi Dave,
Responses to various points --
There probably need to be 3 document paths: User, Advanced User, Developer.
Each bit of documentation could include the version it was written for. Then the reader could decide if what they're reading is applicable.
Adding better use-cases would be much more tempting with a MediaWiki (or some other Wiki/Blogging tool).
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dividing into the three audiences…
Hi Mat and Jed
Your work is one of the most expected works. However here are my concerns
It would mean that anyone who has one of the tiddlyspot wikis already could easily contribute to the documentation without having to do more than add to their existing wiki.
1. Organization: Having documentation alone will not do. It must be organized under titles and subtitles and so and so.
2. Scalability. If I remember correctly, I read somewhere that the scalability of an effort like Twederation will be difficult beyond a point. Shouldn't we opt for a solution that has the ability to expand?
3. Learning curve. For someone who is new to TW5, Twederation will be yet another thing he will have to learn, however simple it is being made into. This introduces the same hurdle that makes github not ideal. While we might not be able to make the process of creating documentation completely familiar, we should atleast provide a way to access the documentation on a familiar UI.
4. What if someone deletes his TW5? Will a copy of the documentation persist somewhere or will it be lost? Since twederation is not a client-server type setting, I guess not? If it will not persist, it means the whole structure of documentation becomes volatile. If it does, where will it stored?
5. Asking people to submit documentation is one thing, asking them to give access to a file that resides in their hard-drive is another. Call me paranoid.
6. The whole system depends on current browser security I assume. If they become stringent tomorrow, what will happen?
7. Yours is a voluntary effort. I am not in anyway questioning you guys' commitment to the project of Twederation, but what if at a point tomorrow life makes it hardly possible to maintain the project of Twederation?
I understand that people will not submit documentation eagerly. Hence the suggestion to make it a community agreement that if users get a satisfactory solution for their problem from the group, they will simply write it up and file it under the appropriate heading.
I disagree; consider any internet search engine for example. The idea to put everything in a pretty tree structure was abandoned decades ago.
If you "know TW" then the learning curve to "know TWederation" should probably not be that tricky.
Fetching means to copy what you want. At least in curren implementation. There can also be a community aggregation for someting as important as docs, i.e it can be an aggregating place much like tiddlywiki.com.
What else will happen tomorrow?
let me save you sime time: Ain't gonna happen. Not that I wouldn't want it to happen but it has proven to simply not work, for several reasons.
Besides, if people did already get the solution "from the group" i.e here on the boards(!) ...then it is already here and you can find it here.
What you ask for is already being done!
I disagree; consider any internet search engine for example. The idea to put everything in a pretty tree structure was abandoned decades ago.
Well here is the first link to the google search "Examples of Best Documentation". https://documentor.in/2148/best-examples-product-documentation-guides/
What all of the have in common, is organization.
If you "know TW" then the learning curve to "know TWederation" should probably not be that tricky.
Know TW being the keyword.
Fetching means to copy what you want. At least in curren implementation. There can also be a community aggregation for someting as important as docs, i.e it can be an aggregating place much like tiddlywiki.com.
Here is a situation. I made a write-up on something. It is now part of the documentation. UserB fetched it. Now I delete it. Tomorrow another person is coming along looking for the write up. Will he be able to find the write from UserB's copy? Remember UserB has not shared it from his wiki nor is he aware of the fact that I have deleted it.
What else will happen tomorrow?
I am going to disagree with your tone here. Should I file it under "Wits and Sarcasm from Internet strangers?"
[ + ...what if Tiddlyspot closes down ]
let me save you sime time: Ain't gonna happen. Not that I wouldn't want it to happen but it has proven to simply not work, for several reasons.
Has such an effort where people are asked to submit documentation in return for the help from this group already tried? Can you show a part where it was tested?
Besides, if people did already get the solution "from the group" i.e here on the boards(!) ...then it is already here and you can find it here.
Then pray tell me, how come this group begets several questions a day.
How come people still come up empty when they look for -say - how to add a border to a tiddler? or how to hide a single field? I do not think it is the first time anyone wanted to have a button that moves a tiddler up the story-river. It is an easy solution. Jed answered it beautifully and demonstrated several methods to achieve the same. Now try and search for "Move tiddler up" or "Move tiddler up the sory-river." How deep do you have to go to find Jed's answer?
I am ending with this post. I feel I am taking up a crusade nobody is bothered about.
We can go to and fro for long time debating hypotheticals. An easy way for refutation and clarification is actually setting up the documentation using whatever platform you deem fit.
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So let us summarize the discussion up until this point. Pending Jeremy's clarification whether we are permitted to undertake such an effort at all, we are considering two main options
1. Create a mediawiki
2. Twederation
That is a really good suggestion - a proper forum. Even reddit would have been a good alternative. Last time someone suggested this, the objection raised was that the amount of data in this group cannot be migrated. But that is sunken cost fallacy, we have created a non-ideal past doesn't mean we can't change.
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That is a really good suggestion - a proper forum. Even reddit would have been a good alternative. Last time someone suggested this, the objection raised was that the amount of data in this group cannot be migrated. But that is sunken cost fallacy, we have created a non-ideal past doesn't mean we can't change.
On 05-Dec-2016 5:44 PM, "Sylvain Naudin" <sil...@gmail.com> wrote:
Le dimanche 4 décembre 2016 04:26:39 UTC+1, Riz a écrit :So let us summarize the discussion up until this point. Pending Jeremy's clarification whether we are permitted to undertake such an effort at all, we are considering two main options
1. Create a mediawiki
2. Twederation
Bonjour :)
I would add two options :
3. write on http://flossmanuals.net/ wich is a great collaborative place to write documentation for open source projects
4. migrate from Google Groups to a real forum tools, like Discourse (I use it for french community even if it cost me a little, it's my contribution to promote TW). We can have most of all Google Groups fonctionality (like email post) and even more, and there is a wiki inside, so it is really fast and easy to convert a thread to a wiki format.
Best regards,
Sylvain
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Ciao tutti
In the last two weeks I've had extensive private correspondence with three folk over on Twitter who want to know where to find the "real documentation" for TiddlyWiki. After pointing to what documentation there is I suggested they ask in the group on specific things they want to do.
If I hadn't engaged in that discussion with them I would never have know there are potential users who are likely passing on from not being able to grasp enough quickly enough to be able to utilise TW well.
I think its a problem (for them at least) as is.
Just saying ...
Josiah
Just a thought after having an exchange with former ShadowPlan users who are uncomfortable moving to TiddlyWiki.
Would it be workable to have an empty TW5 with a set of plug-ins and macros set up to provide ready made and intuitive experience for new users?
Why can't the download (perhaps a zip file) already have tiddlyfox included,
a checklist macro that uses fields to designate the tag the list is based on, the rename macro and a comprehensive set of functions that do not initially require digging under the hood?
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On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 9:20 AM, 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki <tiddl...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
What is shadowplan? Link? My google search only wanted to find "shadowplay".
Mark
On Tuesday, December 6, 2016 at 12:57:12 AM UTC-8, Raymond McDowell wrote:Just a thought after having an exchange with former ShadowPlan users who are uncomfortable moving to TiddlyWiki.
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I have both initiated and participated in several debates over documentation for TiddlyWiki. As this one goes on I have the sense its a LOT better than previous discussions.
There is some chance it might fruit.
A big difference from previous discussions is there is a much broader
IMPLICIT understanding, somewhat absent before, that (1) documentation
does NOT have to involve vast effort external to ongoing discussion; (2)
that proto-documentation is already in the Google Group discussions
everyday; (3) Google Groups is a big part of the problem as it works as
an ongoing flow that loses its own history all the time.
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Ultimately and ideally, we should base TiddlyWiki documentation efforts on TiddlyWiki itself
The solution is simple: switch to using TiddlyWiki in a server-based configuration, but you lose the offline capability. [...] federation on the server under Node.js, where the technical difficulties melt away. That’s how the threaded discussion on http://tiddlywiki.com/tiddlywiki-eu-meetup-2016/ was built; the result is a simple HTML file that downloads swiftly.
I'm against distracting interim solutions or parallel solutions of other kinds. ANY other system would mean people would have to e.g register for yet another thing, learn new UI's and more lingo and it would scatter and fragment the docs and info (or repeat it) and I strongly fear this would split the community and be confusing.
... how about a twitteresque system with UUIDs as hashtags (with potential aliases) for original issues and replies/whatever to such issues can be tagged with these UUIDs to associate it with the original issue.
In the space of a short time Riz, a guy who likes to do, has created a Reddit for TW5 that has discussion (http://tinyurl.com/h884qlj)
IF he continues with it he will need co-moderators to help it be sustainable.
Riz is doing great stuff! (Thanks Riz!)So, if I understand, Reddit is a substitute for the boards but with "voting" on answers, right?
Its worth noting a MAJOR theme is the discussion was we are losing valuable documentation all the time by not having an organised way to look at past threads. TAGs might help, at least as an interim.
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fancy boolean operators like + - AND OR NOT ()
.
Finally, searches can be limited to a particular email field such as from
, date
, subject
or message
.
For example, one can find all messages from April 2002.
The sort order can be controlled by adding sort:newest
or sort:oldest
to your search string.
Access key | Mnemonic | Action |
---|---|---|
Alt-n | Next | Later message by thread |
Alt-p | Previous | Earlier message by thread |
Alt-f | Forward | Later message by date |
Alt-b | Back | Earlier message by date |
Alt-i | Index | Chronological index |
Alt-c | Contents | Thread index |
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Your thoughts?
Cheers,
Dmitry
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