content organization: the advantage of hierarchy that tags lack, and a cure for this problem

[Dani Zobin]

Hi

A word of introduction: I came to Tiddly recently, during my search of a better tool to organize my content, which is usually text related to diverse areas.

So this is what I'm after more than everything: effective ways to organize unstructured content. 

I basically feed very good about Tiddly for this aim.

And to the topic.

I'm sure many of us are coming  originally  from a background of folders and files to organize their content. 

Than, one day you figure out: this piece of content is related to more than only one category. And my data model (directories tree) is not expressive enough to reflect this fact.

Than tags step in - you can tag a piece of content by many tags. If it only belongs to one - than great, tag it with only one tag. And here we have a more expressive data model. Great.

But (!) on the way we lost something important . Hierarchical structure hides from us the vast majority of our content, exposing on each step only a small part of relevant content. This follows one of our biggest natural cognitive limitations: attention. 

Tags, in the traditional form,fail to do so. You have all your tags at one big pile.

The idea of tags cloud tries to handle this problem, by showing the most used tags bigger. But this is a statistical categorization, not conceptual

So here is a claim: we need a way to powerfully categorize tags themselves as well. And, be able to select them by categories whenever needing to specify a tag (when searching by tag or 

when applying a tag)

I'll suggest here an initial list of requirements for a feature that follows the thoughts above

- Be able to categorize existing tags, by applying other tags (already possible in Tiddly) [example: apply the tag "vehicle" on the tag "car"]

- When applying a tag, be able to create a new tag under an existing tag [example: create the tag "subaru" under the tag "car" (that himself is tagged by vehicle). Later, we'll be able to apply also "Japanese products" on "subaru" but in the time of creation it will be probably apropriate to limit categorization to one parent tag]

In two situations we need to specify tags, and this search for tags: when applying a tag, when filtering by a tag

In this situation we need to be able to search for tags, exactly as we're searching for content. Namely: by textual search - i.e. auto complete (a plugin for this by Udo already exists) and by tags

So if I want to search info about a car that I recently saw and don't remember the brand, I will type (or better be also able to use a GUI): tags:car [here a dropdown will appear with all tags that are themselves tagged by car, i.e. brands of cars] and I can now choose: only filter by the main category - car, or continue and choose a subtag: Subaru. 

Whenever a Tidler is tagged by a tag, it will be automatically tagged also by all parent tags. So when tagging a tiddler by Subaru, it'll be automatically tagged also by "car" and by "Japanese product". (This can be implemented at the time of tagging, or at the time of retrieval. Should be transparent to the user.) 

Some more general thoughts:

Personally I feel that rarely more than 2 levels of hierarchy will be needed. Maybe 3. But this 2-3 level are absolutely needed. I felt this need many times since I started to insert content into my Tiddly some week ago

My guess is that many may not feel strongly the need for the above, because they don't use so much tags.

However,  in my opinion, there is a great chance, that those people would use much more tags, IF they  had an efficient way to order and retrieve them. 

And more tags used is more captured meaning, and better abilities of retrieval. I.e. more chances that you'll actually use what you wrote.

Hey guys, I hope for a positive resonance, for this post of mine. 

I feel this is a key point, go ahead and share you thoughts. 

Dani

P.S

Generally I'm a web developer, and even if more server side oriented, I have some experience also with JS and JQuery. 

If my excitement with Tiddlly will continue to be at high level it currently is, there is a  good chance that I'll jump one day into the wagon of Tiddly development. 

I'm not sure however how soon  my time will allow this

So for now I'm throwing this idea here into the group, in order for it to start getting feedback and  resonating with other peoples minds. I'll for sure be very glad if someone likes it enough to implement

[Dani Zobin]

I'm not aware of a plugin that currently allows this functionality. Do enlighten me if there is!

And by the way, Udo, I love your search plugin very much. It does exactly what I expected a search to do in the Tidlly environment !

[Dani Zobin]

Throwing in one more idea: 

The ability to "stick a filter on the top of you wiki". Probably usually the filter be a tag. 

The "sticking" means a focus into a sub-world of your domain. 

For example, if I have a wiki about cars, at some point I may want to set a "Subaru" filter in the background, i.e. today I'm working only on Subaru, so append tag:subaru to all my searches / tag browsing and maybe also automatically apply the tag "Subaru" onto all the new tiddlers I create.

[Cyrill]

Hello,

I second these ideas , the only Plugin that show this kind of tags
order might be RelatedTiddlerPlugin form Eric, but it only show the
manually tagged tiddlers, without the wishes of preordered/prefilter
hiarchical Tags ...

Regards

On 2 Mai, 00:37, Dani Zobin <danizo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Throwing in one more idea:
>
> The ability to "stick a filter on the top of you wiki". Probably usually the
> filter be a tag.
> The "sticking" means a focus into a sub-world of your domain.
>
> For example, if I have a wiki about cars, at some point I may want to set a
> "Subaru" filter in the background, i.e. today I'm working only on Subaru, so
> append tag:subaru to all my searches / tag browsing and maybe also
> automatically apply the tag "Subaru" onto all the new tiddlers I create.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, May 2, 2011 at 1:23 AM, Dani Zobin <danizo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I'm not aware of a plugin that currently allows this functionality. Do
> > enlighten me if there is!
>
> > And by the way, Udo, I love your search plugin very much. It does exactly
> > what I expected a search to do in the Tidlly environment !
>

> > On Mon, May 2, 2011 at 1:19 AM, Dani Zobin <danizo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> Hi
>
> >> A word of introduction: I came to Tiddly recently, during my search of a
> >> better tool to organize my content, which is usually text related
> >> to diverse areas.
> >> So this is what I'm after more than everything: effective ways to organize
> >> unstructured content.
> >> I basically feed very good about Tiddly for this aim.
>
> >> And to the topic.
>
> >> I'm sure many of us are coming  originally  from a background of folders
> >> and files to organize their content.
> >> Than, one day you figure out: this piece of content is related to more
> >> than only one category. And my data model (directories tree) is not
> >> expressive enough to reflect this fact.
> >> Than tags step in - you can tag a piece of content by many tags. If it
> >> only belongs to one - than great, tag it with only one tag. And here we have
> >> a more expressive data model. Great.
>
> >> But (!) on the way we lost something important . Hierarchical structure
> >> hides from us the vast majority of our content, exposing on each step only a
> >> small part of relevant content. This follows one of our biggest natural

> >> cognitive limitations: *attention*.
>
> >> *Tags, in the traditional form,fail to do so*. You have all your tags at

> >> one big pile.
>
> >> The idea of tags cloud tries to handle this problem, by showing the most
> >> used tags bigger. But this is a statistical categorization, not conceptual
> >> So here is a claim: we need a way to powerfully categorize tags themselves
> >> as well. And, be able to select them by categories whenever needing to
> >> specify a tag (when searching by tag or
> >> when applying a tag)
>
> >> I'll suggest here an initial list of requirements for a feature that
> >> follows the thoughts above
>

> >> *- Be able to categorize existing tags, by applying other tags (already
> >> possible in Tiddly) [example: apply the tag "vehicle" on the tag "car"]*
> >> *- When applying a tag, be able to create a new tag under an existing tag

> >> [example: create the tag "subaru" under the tag "car" (that himself is
> >> tagged by vehicle). Later, we'll be able to apply also "Japanese products"
> >> on "subaru" but in the time of creation it will be probably apropriate to

> >> limit categorization to one parent tag]*
> >> *
> >> *
> >> *In two situations we need to specify tags, and this search for tags:
> >> when applying a tag, when filtering by a tag*
> >> *In this situation we need to be able to search for tags, exactly as

> >> we're searching for content. Namely: by textual search - i.e. auto complete

> >> (a plugin for this by Udo already exists) and by tags*
> >> *So if I want to search info about a car that I recently saw and don't

> >> remember the brand, I will type (or better be also able to use a GUI):
> >> tags:car [here a dropdown will appear with all tags that are themselves
> >> tagged by car, i.e. brands of cars] and I can now choose: only filter by the

> >> main category - car, or continue and choose a subtag: Subaru. *
> >> *
> >> *
> >> *Whenever a Tidler is tagged by a tag, it will be automatically tagged

> >> also by all parent tags. So when tagging a tiddler by Subaru, it'll be
> >> automatically tagged also by "car" and by "Japanese product". (This can be
> >> implemented at the time of tagging, or at the time of retrieval. Should be

> >> transparent to the user.) *
> >> *
> >> *

[HansBKK]

This is doable now with existing plugins, specifically TagsTree
http://visualtw.ouvaton.org/VisualTW.html

The way I use it is to set up a separate hierarchy of tags
specifically for a particular navigation tree, and only use these to
tag for navigation purposes.

If these relate to my other-purpose tags (Glossary, Index terms) I
will usually refer to them explicitly inline [[Index_term]] or tag the
nav tiddler with the term, depending on whether I'm using MPTW's
TagglyTagging or not.

This is because my Glossary/Index terms are usually extensively cross-
referenced creating recursive looping that defeats the linear
coherence of hierarchical navigation, and if there are a lot the
Javascript jams up.

See below for additional comments (I snipped a lot)

On May 2, 5:19 am, Dani Zobin <danizo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> *- Be able to categorize existing tags, by applying other tags (already

Already in core, originally from MPTW's tagglytagging. Just make your
tag a tiddler and tag your tags.


> *In this situation we need to be able to search for tags, exactly as we're

as above.

Many tags will walk through the tree and show you all related
tiddlers.

relatedTiddlers

I also find
http://www.TiddlyTools.com/#MatchTagsPlugin
very useful - now I often use this instead of MPTW, since
tagglytagging went to core.

[PMario]

Hi Dani,

I second everything you wrote. It's very similar to the TW workflow I
like.

MPTW's tagglyTagging [1] mechanism creates a "natural" tagging
structure. I think this is very similar to your descriptions.

MPTW also uses QuickOpenTagPlugin which creates the dropdown near the
tags and it opens the tag tiddler if you click the tags name.

There is a NewHere toolbar command, which automatically tags a new
tiddler, with its "parent" name as a tag. (The only problem here is,
that a curcular sturcture can't be solved very well)

For "fast finding" I use GotoPlugin + SearchOptionsPlugin (see [2]). I
like search options plugin a lot, because you can fold it, and go back
to the search results later on.

The "global filter" is a new idea to me. But I think to get usefull
results, you need to be very accurate with initial tagging.

FND made TagsplorerMacro which can be seen in action at the TiddlyWeb
page [3]. It may be of interest for you.

have fun!
-mario

[1] http://mptw.tiddlyspot.com/#TagglyTagging
[2] http://www.TiddlyTools.com/
[3] http://tiddlyweb.peermore.com/wiki/#Navigation
[4] http://tiddlyweb.peermore.com/wiki/#TagsplorerMacro

[PMario]

>Generally I'm a web developer, and even if more server side oriented, I have

>some experience also with JS and JQuery. ....
> ... there is a good chance that I'll jump one day into the wagon of Tiddly
>development.

Some links, that may be of interest.

InsideTW [1]. Especially the left menu, activates a very good
overview. Click the .js files and you'll see what I mean. The source
code links point to the svn repository, which will be depricated in
the future. But they are still good to go, to get an overview. The
actual source link is TiddlyWiki on github [2].

Dev questions/discussion is TiddlyWikiDev group [3]

Dev function descriptions will be at TiddlyWiki.org in the future. At
the time this resource is recreated from [5] oldwiki.tiddlywiki.org.

Tell us if you need more :)

-m

[1] http://www.tiddlytools.com/insideTW/
[2] https://github.com/TiddlyWiki
[3] http://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywikidev
[4] http://tiddlywiki.org/
[5] http://oldwiki.tiddlywiki.org/wiki/Main_Page

[JaredFreeman]

Dani

You might look into WordNet, which is used by a great many folk for
language analysis. It takes the form of a network and so can be used
to impose a hierarchy (or net) on tags. I suspect your idea has been
tried before -- it's a good one -- but I didn't find evidence on a
quick google scan. I did find a project that is the reverse of your
suggestion: it automatically tags texts:
http://books.google.com/books?id=Rehu8OOzMIMC&pg=PA203&lpg=PA203&dq=wordnet+tags&source=bl&ots=IpgbKhXUj8&sig=pBxXrvovgjiIb6kWeIDCTOJ2FCU&hl=en&ei=p5y-TdjfLdOjtgfe7sjkBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10&ved=0CGAQ6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=wordnet%20tags&f=false

Best,
Jared



Jared

On May 1, 5:19 pm, Dani Zobin <danizo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi
>
> A word of introduction: I came to Tiddly recently, during my search of a
> better tool to organize my content, which is usually text related
> to diverse areas.
> So this is what I'm after more than everything: effective ways to organize
> unstructured content.
> I basically feed very good about Tiddly for this aim.
>
> And to the topic.
>
> I'm sure many of us are coming  originally  from a background of folders and
> files to organize their content.
> Than, one day you figure out: this piece of content is related to more than
> only one category. And my data model (directories tree) is not expressive
> enough to reflect this fact.
> Than tags step in - you can tag a piece of content by many tags. If it only
> belongs to one - than great, tag it with only one tag. And here we have a
> more expressive data model. Great.
>
> But (!) on the way we lost something important . Hierarchical structure
> hides from us the vast majority of our content, exposing on each step only a
> small part of relevant content. This follows one of our biggest natural

> cognitive limitations: *attention*.
>
> *Tags, in the traditional form,fail to do so*. You have all your tags at one

> big pile.
>
> The idea of tags cloud tries to handle this problem, by showing the most
> used tags bigger. But this is a statistical categorization, not conceptual
> So here is a claim: we need a way to powerfully categorize tags themselves
> as well. And, be able to select them by categories whenever needing to
> specify a tag (when searching by tag or
> when applying a tag)
>
> I'll suggest here an initial list of requirements for a feature that follows
> the thoughts above
>

> *- Be able to categorize existing tags, by applying other tags (already
> possible in Tiddly) [example: apply the tag "vehicle" on the tag "car"]*
> *- When applying a tag, be able to create a new tag under an existing tag

> [example: create the tag "subaru" under the tag "car" (that himself is
> tagged by vehicle). Later, we'll be able to apply also "Japanese products"
> on "subaru" but in the time of creation it will be probably apropriate to

> limit categorization to one parent tag]*
> *
> *
> *In two situations we need to specify tags, and this search for tags: when
> applying a tag, when filtering by a tag*
> *In this situation we need to be able to search for tags, exactly as we're

> searching for content. Namely: by textual search - i.e. auto complete (a

> plugin for this by Udo already exists) and by tags*
> *So if I want to search info about a car that I recently saw and don't

> remember the brand, I will type (or better be also able to use a GUI):
> tags:car [here a dropdown will appear with all tags that are themselves
> tagged by car, i.e. brands of cars] and I can now choose: only filter by the

> main category - car, or continue and choose a subtag: Subaru. *
> *
> *
> *Whenever a Tidler is tagged by a tag, it will be automatically tagged also

> by all parent tags. So when tagging a tiddler by Subaru, it'll be
> automatically tagged also by "car" and by "Japanese product". (This can be
> implemented at the time of tagging, or at the time of retrieval. Should be

> transparent to the user.) *
> *
> *

[Zargron]

+1 Dani. IMHO an excellent post.

> *Tags, in the traditional form [...] you have all your tags at one big pile.

Yes - being able to put your tags into a hierarchical structure would
be wonderful.
Regards the number of levels, you mention that 2-3 might be enough.
I generally head towards allowing for 7 levels when developing
solutions for such challenges. Not just my idea!
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
The_Magical_Number_Seven,_Plus_or_Minus_Two)

And i totally agree Dani, missing from many a good CMS is the ability
to filter a hierarchical data structure. Sure, there is filtering
implicit within the concept of hierarchy. When you expand a node, you
see only the child content of that node. Many a developer rubs their
hands together with glee as they point proudly at their masterpiece.

However, what if you don't want to see all children? Perhaps you only
want to focus on some of the children. Imagine being able to browse
your hierarchical data structure with it filtered according to some of
the tags you selected from your neatly organised hierarchical
structure of tags.

Then, when you go to add a piece of content, it automatically gets
tagged with all tags associated with the filter that you have in
place, as well as obviously being set as the direct descendent to the
node that you had selected at the time.

I hope some of you understand my ramblings.

[Claudio Li]

Hi Dani,

It's true that content is related to more than only one categories in many cases. Yet not all categories can be easily represented with tags, because as short labels they can't contain much "context" information.

If a file (or any piece of information) is simply about cars, we can put up the tag "car". However, if there is a file (e.g. a PDF article) which may become useful when I'm going to move my house, it will be hard to categorize with tags. In principle, I can apply tags called "house-moving" and "maybe useful later" to the file, but this will create lots of long and ugly-looking tags that are so unique that only few files use them.

As we don't know how many "would-be situations" there will be, using tags to describe them will create considerable "noise" in the information model. When tags are long, it will be difficult to remember them during retrieval as well.

"Hm...I gonna move my house next month. I remember there's something I can read about. What tags did I use to file them???"

Actually, keep lots of articles on various topics, some of the reasons for keeping them are:

- This article will become useful when reviewing/forming my life plan
- This sample newsletter can serve as a template if the company I work for are doing rebranding
- This will become useful when I want to write about why people can't throw away their stuffs

etc.

If using TW to file these articles/information, I can probably write the reasons for keeping as text notes, e.g.

Tiddler title="10 Tips on House-moving"
[[10 Tips on House-moving|file/h12938.pdf]]
!!!Notes
Great article to read about if I were to move my house.

Even doing so I can't guarantee I can remember the notes and use them to help locating the exact file I want. Keyword search may help but the result again there's no guarantee the keyword I think of during retrieval matches the one I used in the notes.

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[Tobias Beer]

+1 on all of PMario's suggestions, especially when it comes to NewHere
+ TagglyTagging (and it's sitemap view!). Those pretty much are always
the starting point in any of my TiddlyWiki's, as they simply
incredibly empower the tagging experience.

You could also have a look at a plugin of mine called x-plore...

http://tbgtd.tiddlyspot.com/#x-plore

...which allows you to explore tag or link relations of any tiddler.
For example... imagine a "car" tiddler while clicking on x-plore in
the toolbar. You could test that with the "action" tiddler in the wiki
linked above. The plugin's (code) is derived from and hence works
similar to Eric's RelatedTiddlersPlugin.

All in all, with all your specific idea's and your background I
definitely suggest you keep on defining clear goals and implementation
details while eventually setting out to develop the exact TiddlyWiki
adaptation you have in mind, quite probably coding or adjusting a few
macro's and plugins along the road.

For example, my http://tagsearch.tiddlyspot.com hooks with the search
abilities of GotoPlugin. Such a kind of "hook" might be a good
starting point to allow for a tag based search. Starting to type the
listbox returns any tags found while selecting one will render a
tagging tree for the selected tag like the ones generated by
RelatedTiddlersPlugin. This takes a bit of coding, but it's sure not
over the top.

Cheers, Tobias.

[Yakov]

Hi Dani, hello everybody.
I'd like to point another aspect of the issue.

> Than, one day you figure out: this piece of content is related to more than
> only one category. And my data model (directories tree) is not expressive
> enough to reflect this fact.

I also think it is an important point. I use symlinks on both PC and
handheld and I'm going to introduce hardlinks in both ones (the second
was changed to a one working on Maemo) though I haven't found a tool
for Windows which is good enough (extend context menu, assigne hot
keys and allow to create multiple hardlinks; not mentioning copying
hardlinks from one disk with NTFS to another, say, external hard
disk).

> Than tags step in - you can tag a piece of content by many tags. If it only
> belongs to one - than great, tag it with only one tag. And here we have a
> more expressive data model. Great.

Because of this I rarely use tags, mostly for "pinning" big notes to
~topics and for technical uses (for instance, I mark tiddlers with
relative html links with a special tag, so that if I need to rename or
move something, it's not an unsolvable problem).

> But (!) on the way we lost something important . Hierarchical structure
> hides from us the vast majority of our content, exposing on each step only a
> small part of relevant content. This follows one of our biggest natural

> cognitive limitations: *attention*.

This is why I think the "hardlinks" approache would be the most
powerfull one. It also has "backward compability" in file systems and
any tree systems, but we don't have any tree structure in TW and don't
have any "converter" which would load a part of file system with txt
files, for instance. So, the first questoin is how to implement the
"hardlinks" approache in TW.

It is quite simple. I have one TW which is built almost totally in
this concept frames. It is called "info-node" and is used for
aggregating info from web -- links to info resources, communication
flows, notes and links for searches in progress and others. It relies
heavily on PasteUpPlugin [1] which supports the workflow (but not the
appearence of a "finished" document, so is not important for reading).
I have a "Root" tiddler with specific CSS applied. It is the only
tiddler in the DefaultTiddlers. And next thing is Root contains
<<tiddler>> macros and <<slider>> macros used along with sections,
like in the example below. Finally, I can use multiple <<tiddler
tiddlerA>> macros (in different tiddlers). I have to note, though,
that this is more "symbolic links" rather "hardlinks": if I want to
rename my "tiddlerA", I have to see the references and change the
links there.

== in the Searches tiddler, imaginary example ==
...
<<slider "" [[Searches##mobile phone]] "New mobile phone" "">>
.../%
..
!mobile phone
{{indent{
<<tiddler [[New mobile phone]] edit>>}}}
!..
...
!end
%/
== end of the example ==
the "edit" option can be skipped since the latest versions of
PasteUpPlugin has a global chkPasteUpEditAll option thanks to Eric.
Though, to my shame, I haven't introduces use of this in my documents
yet.

A side note: this approache shows that a corresponding extension of
the slider macro would be of considerable value. Also, I'd note that
transclusion is not the only possible approach -- links can be used as
well; all this is "manual" and "custom" and I have no idea of
"automatic" analogues. Keep in mind that I use "new tiddler" button
*very* seldom in this document: first I create <<tiddler [[..]]
edit>>, then I follow the link to create and sometimes add a slider to
hide the new content. More than that, I do so in most of my tw-
documents -- create <<tiddler>> macro or a pretty link first. The "new
tiddler" button is heavily used in documents which aggregate highly
unstructured information, like news.

One though can see the lack of autogenerated "contents" to be a
shortcoming of the approach. I can see some ways to implement it but
no really beatiful one (aside creating some big script or plugin).

------------------------------------

Now let's move to the work with highly "unstructured" data (I'll refer
to the news aggregating which I do from time to time). This is where I
use tags heavily and where things about "categorizing tags" really
apply. Actually something goes wrong here, I must admit. The intention
of using tags here is to define the value of the news to provide
further rereading flow. Acting in this frame I face the fact that many
things are interesting very indirectly -- as materials for
~statistics, as precedents, or only if I become interested in a narrow
branch of science, or they are announcements which will be interested
only if they don't become reality (otherwise they are replaced with
the actual news). In fact, many news pieces remain in the RSS
aggregator; and I'm not sure whether I can say something substantial
in this aspect.

[1] http://www.tiddlytools.com/#PasteUpPlugin

[Yakov]

PS I missed the Claudio's post and actually he said something similar
about the unstructured data. Probably we should admit that TW, great
WYSIWYM system doesn't do much with highly unstructured data. But
perhaps we should not :)

Anyway, this shows that we should be watchful of this "mind greed"
which sometimes provides chaotic loads of contents.

[Ken Girard]

Check out IntelliTaggerPlugin
http://tiddlywiki.abego-software.de/#IntelliTaggerPlugin
It suggest tags based on what is already common in your TW.
For example tagging something "Contact" would offer up Friend, Work,
Service.
Also uses Alt-1 through 0 for likely suggestions.

Ken Girard

[HansBKK]

For others googling about organizing tags into hierarchies, a related discussion is here:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/tiddlywiki/z1Q-_3az7bY/discussion

I found that google's search isn't using the different grammar forms of "hierarchy" as synonyms, so here's a more "global" search.

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/tiddlywiki/hierarchy$20OR$20hierarchical$20OR$20hierarchies

My particular interest in this topic is allowing for an arbitrary group of imported tiddlers to auto-magically create a well-structured navigation tree menu, rather than forcing the user to manually create the menu.

This allows for separate but related sets of content to share common indexing taxonomies, have the same menu structures and general look-and-feel.