Tiddlywiki as an Application

[Dave]

I'm thinking of making a TW that summarizes a course I recently took and could potentially act as a clinical guide to practitioners as they practice / work.  

If I view it as a complete entity with no more editing to be done I could just distribute the TW file and be done with it.

If however I intend for the user to modify their file and save changes that adds complexity to the user experience with the user suddenly having to either figure 

out how to modify their browser to save changes or at least know to go to the downloads folder to use the most recently saved version.

Is there currently any way to make a TW that can be given to a complete novice that allows them to make changes and not have to step out of the "TW experience"

any further than just double-clicking the file to open it up again?  I would imagine maybe a way to bundle a tiddlywikidesktop instance with it as "the program that runs TW",

but I don't know how easy that would be on Mac or Windows (as I'm on Linux and the install is more complicated than just "open this file with this program")

Thanks,

- Dave

[TiddlyTweeter]

Dave wrote:

... Is there currently any way to make a TW that can be given to a complete novice that allows them to make changes and not have to step out of the "TW experience"

Certainly TiddlyDesktop could do that on Windows very well. But it would need some changes. At the moment you can't distribute it wrapped with wiki reliably.

This is because the internal pathing to Wiki files is absolute pathing, not relative. If that one issue could be solved then TiddlyDesktop could be a simple install like a normal app and work well.

FYI I wanted to wrap all Dickens' novels into a TD install. One wiki per novel with ability for the user to annotate paragraphs. But I'd need to reliably wrap the novels so that on install TD can find the files. At moment can't work. But an example of something very close to your OP I think.

Best wishes

TT

[Mark S.]

The topic of saving has been discussed endlessly here. Unfortunately, all easy solutions depend on the user's platform and software.

The universal solution is to configure the browser. Oh come on, users can handle that, can't they?

Nearly universal solution: Put the TW file on tiddlyspace and give the user the password. Downside: The file is publicly viewable.

For windows, there are at least two solutions that come close to requirements:

On Windows, there is a way to wrap a TW file in it's own executable wrapper. See https://ihm4u.github.io/twexe. This comes closest to the "dream" solution. But some people warn that this approach may be dangerous. Hey, but YOLO, right? Also leaves a command box open, which user must be smart enough not to close.

On Windows, you can change the extension of your tw file to .hta and then open/save in Internet Explorer. Unsure if it works in either version of MS Edge. Maybe someone running Windows 10 could test that for you.

HTH

[PMario]

On Thursday, February 20, 2020 at 8:30:39 PM UTC+1, Mark S. wrote:

On Windows, you can change the extension of your tw file to .hta and then open/save in Internet Explorer. Unsure if it works in either version of MS Edge. Maybe someone running Windows 10 could test that for you.

For me this doesn't work anymore with latest windows 10 update and chromium Edge

I really don't want to mess with these settings and install my windows again afterwards: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/deployedge/edge-ie-mode

-m

[Mark S.]

On Thursday, February 20, 2020 at 2:11:38 PM UTC-8, PMario wrote:

On Thursday, February 20, 2020 at 8:30:39 PM UTC+1, Mark S. wrote:

On Windows, you can change the extension of your tw file to .hta and then open/save in Internet Explorer. Unsure if it works in either version of MS Edge. Maybe someone running Windows 10 could test that for you.

For me this doesn't work anymore with latest windows 10 update and chromium Edge

Is that the "new" Edge? Have they stopped calling it "developer" edition? Obviously I'm a bit out of the loop ;-)

I guess I'm wondering which version they currently ship with. That would be the version most people will use. I found the

original Edge had some serious problems, but it's possible it still does the .hta thing.

 

I really don't want to mess with these settings and install my windows again afterwards: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/deployedge/edge-ie-mode

That would be definitely beyond the call of duty

-m

[TonyM]

Folks,

On my windows 10 I load a hta at startup, and it continues to work. I have Windows Explorer 11 installed but providing the hta file to edge it opens and continues to work. However they make it hard for me to determine the version of edge running. So I am now installing the "latest".

On opening hta files with the new version of edge and IE11 installed I see it opens on its own process mshta.exe (dated ‎Tuesday, ‎19 ‎March ‎2019, ‏‎3:46:01 PM) so I believe it is somewhat independent from the local browser choice.

I recently saw (perhaps from Eric) this simple html download (Which downloads the wiki as found as a file on your server, without any changed tiddlers)

<a href="#" download="targetname.hta"> download this file to a windows </a>
However it is not working in firefox when I just tested it now

I am working on a download button as we speak

Regards

Tony

[Mark S.]

There are two versions of Edge. I believe the "new" and future version of Edge is the Chromium version which, per PMario, may not work with .hta files. (or may work if a lot of extra support files are installed).

It's possible to install both versions of Edge, so if you're interested you might install the new Chromium version to see if .hta still works. 

[Scott Kingery]

On my Win 10 box running the new Chromium Edge I just download empty.html, renamed it empty.hta and it opens under something called "Microsoft HTML Application Host". Saves seem to work. The icon on the file looks like a generic application icon and not a web page icon.

I dragged in a tiddlywiki.html file I use all the time and it imported. I get javascript errors when I refresh or load but I think that is due to the animated "loading" splash screen I have in the file.

This was a 5-minute test so your mileage may vary.

Scott

[TonyM]

Yes, It operates separately from the browsers however https://www.file.net/process/mshta.exe.html suggests It is usually installed with Internet Explorer and is executed by the mshta.exe file however I would not be surprised if it is in Windows 10 natively.

It is not in itself risky however some malware has used it (modified copy).

Regards

Tony

[TiddlyTweeter]

Further thought ...

Would user editing have to be offline? Would a cloud save do?

Not that I am fully clear on the options, but they exist.

Your question is interesting practically.

Best wishes

TT

[Mat]

Dave wrote:

Is there currently any way to make a TW that can be given to a complete novice that allows them to make changes and not have to step out of the "TW experience"

Here. The password is "password". Save as much as you want.

http://justsave.tiddlyspot.com/

<:-)

[TonyM]

Dave,

I just thought, something that can allow quick use of Tiddlywiki is using the local storage plugin within tiddlywiki, there are issues using this method and if you decide to lean on it I suggest researching it to learn more. The changes are saved in the browser for the wikis url, returning will restore the changes. So all you need to do it publish a read only tiddlywiki online with the local storage plugin active and with an appropriate filter set and users can make and save changes right there.

There remains opportunities here that do not seem to be full explored, first you hide the default save, turn off autosave and design a way to save the changes "like a back up" to disk, that can be called on if the data is lost.

But yes the hta and twexe solutions work, the hta is the most intuitive but is windows only.

Regards

Tony

[Dave]

Thanks everyone for the feedback.  I think I may have to bite the bullet and try to return to windows briefly to try those 2 methods (twexe and .hta)

The more I think of it the more I realise maybe not *every* user would want to edit, rather a few moderator-type people.  In that case tiddlyspot.com would probably be a good bet actually.

One thing - I've seen all sorts of TW5s at that site lately, but when I go there to make one it seems to only have the old version available to make.  Is there some secret incantation I'm missing to be able to do that? 

Thanks,

- Dave

[Birthe C]

Hi Dave,

You are right. Create your new tiddlyspot, write down name and password, if you forget, it is gone. You do not have to open your newly created tiddlyspot...it will as you found out have the old version. Now you need to have your own TW5 to upload to tiddlyspot. As far as I know, we still need to use chrome or chromium for that. (Firefox has never worked for me at least for this purpose).

Some of the browser updates...did work for me, but I often had to try a couple of times. When you see the message it has uploaded, go to your newly created tiddlyspot to check. Open controlpanel and enter you password, save and refresh. You are good to go.

Mat created http://tiddlywiki5.tiddlyspot.com/ to make it a bit easier

Birthe

[Donald Coates]

Have you checked out bobEXE?  I use TW5 on nodejs so I haven't played with this much but I remember it being an executable implementation of the node version packaged for Linux and MS.

[TonyM]

A note on Bob

BobEXE is excellent, and it allows you to create and manage folder based wikis very well. It also allows the same wiki to be opened including to edit by multiple people or browser/browser tabs, in effect it locks a tiddler for editing, this is as far as I now the only true milti-access multi-user version of tiddlywiki. Like TWexe, TiddlyServer and other node implementations of wiki bob and Bobexe do require another window open, in which to run the server. 

I believe you could host a bob (not necessarily exe) on the internet in a node docker container for an online multi-user network of Wikis however there may still be security concerns, however Bob or Bobexe is excellent for Local network, LAN and desktop based multi-user wikis.  Perhaps a little add on to force user ID selection or inhibit some edits would be wise in a larger LAN based solution.

Regards

Tony

[Mohammad]

It would be great if Mat update this to 5.1.21 (the latest stable) 

Birthe

[Mat]

Mohammad wrote:

Mat created http://tiddlywiki5.tiddlyspot.com/ to make it a bit easier

It would be great if Mat update this to 5.1.21 (the latest stable) 

OK, done.

<:-) 

[Mohammad]

Thanks Mat! 

Brilliant!

--Mohammad