[doc] The BIG PICTURE of TiddlyWiki - an overview

[Mat]

The Big Pic of TW is a text describing some things I wish I had understood sooner in my TW ventures.

It is written for the "advanced beginner".

Please shout out if I make any false claims or if there's something I ought to include.

<:-)

[Mohammad]

A quick look! I love it!

Thanks for sharing!

Keep it alive! 

Best

Mohammad

[Birthe C]

Mat,

That is pure love for the tiddler. How could anyone be a "tiddleur" without them?

Everybody should read this really.

Birthe

[Tony K]

Helpful for beginners such as myself

thank you

[Birthe C]

Mat,

Something else:

I would like to pester you a little. Long time ago you created twaddle. That really inspired people to get tiddler fiddling (addiction). Would you at some time consider a twaddle2.

If you do, include a list of your plugins.

Birthe

[TiddlyTweeter]

Good. Mature take on it. Actually quite pointed. Useful. I would have benefited as a starter too. It gives perspective!

Missing? You probably not into it but the fact TW is a Quine matters a lot to how it works. Its that fundamental character that facilitates is endless flex.

Best wishes

TT

[Mat]

Thanks for the kind words everyone.

Birthe C wrote:

Would you at some time consider a twaddle2.

It's flattering that you ask. A few reasons made me stop TWaddling but there was one permeating frustration that was mentally exhausting: My ponderings constantly led back to a very specific conclusion, which BTW still holds: that we really need a federated network that everyones wiki can connect to for exchanging tiddlers (TWederation). This infrastructure would enable "fundamentals" like collaborative work and sharing of plugins etc. I got frustrated from constantly either writing my bigger ideas about what would be possible if we only had this - or suppressing writing about them because it, again, ended with the same disappointing conclusion. As you know, I eventually tried to build it with Jed and he has since continued in his own direction but with a somewhat different vision (quite possibly based on a better understanding of the technology than I have). Maybe he'd even say it works (@Jed - ?) but the UX/UI isn't there yet at least not IMO. I can understand if this seems like a weird reason why TWaddle stopped but... blogging ain't no fun if it evokes the wrong feelings. But who knows, maybe one day.

<:-)

[Mat]

TiddlyTweeter wrote:

Missing? You probably not into it but the fact TW is a Quine matters a lot to how it works. Its that fundamental character that facilitates is endless flex.

Thanks for your kind words. 

The quine aspects are interesting but I'm not qualified to write about them. In what way does this aspect, as you say, "matter a lot to how it works"? I thought it was only that TW has the potential to create new wikis... and that this, by the way, requires the node.js version. As you can tell, I have no real understanding of the quine aspects in TW.

<:-)

[Jon]

Thanks Mat I look forward to reading this

Regards

Jon

p.s. I love the concept of the "advanced beginner"!

[TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Mat,

In computing a quine is a special kind of phenomena. Briefly, its code whose output becomes its input where the input is the code of the program ... In other words its a self-contained system that changes itself where those changes persist between iterations. Its rarer than you might think. 

TW is an true instance of a practical quine.

In one way this is esoteric. But, actually, I think it really aids understanding TW stand-alone once you get your head round it.

FWIW, https://rosettacode.org/wiki/Quine and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quine_(computing)

Best wishes.

TT

[Mat]

TiddlyTweeter wrote:

[...] I think it really aids understanding TW stand-alone

In what way? I agree it is super cool conceptually but I just don't see how it aids understanding. It is just a fact that "TW is a quine which means <definition>". What else is there to say about it?

<:-)

[Sach]

I've been a lurker on our TW google group, Reddit & Discord threads for the last few days after Anne-Laure posted about TW.

I've RTFM ;) and the Philosophy of Tiddlers

I've seen the trunk move playfully,

touched the hard rubbery cracked skin,

felt the breeze as the ears swayed, 

Today

I finally saw the elephant

in all its magnificent glory

far greater than the sum of its parts

which I would have possibly never seen 

if not for you.

Thank you, Mat

[Mat]

@Sach ... that touched me. Upliftingly wonderful. Really happy to have you on board.

<:-)

[Diego Mesa]

Mat!

This is wonderful!!

Is it possible to add this to the recent "The Book" project? (As well as on tw.com)

Thank you for this!

Diego

[TonyM]

Mat,

Very timely 
The Big Picture, Good Work, I will scour it for material but a lot of new users will benifit from it. Thanks

On the Matter of Quines,

Most examples in the wild are Trivial Quines. 

To me the single file model proves it. You use tiddlywiki (that app) to save itself, the Document, which is also the app. 

The UI is the document, the App, a Website, a file, tiddlers drive everything and you can add and modify any tiddler. This is all without running it on a server.

Tiddlywiki can be its own generator, Software Development Kit, its own project tool all in one file.

Regards

Tony

[Edgaras]

Thanks Mat, very much needed for me now! :D

[Mat]

Again, thanks for your kind words guys.

Diego Mesa wrote:

Is it possible to add this to the recent "The Book" project? (As well as on tw.com)

For me it would be fine to add it to those places but I imagine it might not "fit" into someone elses work? Also, I have some further ideas for some more big pic stuff that I'm going to write about.

For tiddlywiki.com I think @Jeremy would have to say that it's a good idea first in which case I'd try to adapt it into tiddlers but I imagine that the bigger problem are the differences in style/prose. And I'm not sure how to handle the images.

<:-)

[Jeremy Ruston]

Hi Mat

My congratulations. It’s great piece of writing by any standard, and very skilfully illuminates something fundamental about TiddlyWiki that also eluded me for a long time.

I think we should consider publishing it on tiddlywiki.com in its entirety, if you’d be willing. You’re using three bitmap illustrations which I tend to avoid as part of the main TW5 docs because they are hard to maintain. If it was being read within TiddlyWiki do you think it might be possible to phrase it so the diagrams are not needed?

Best wishes

Jeremy

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tiddlywiki+...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/94ff310f-f870-45fe-9197-ab44cef900a5%40googlegroups.com.

[Julio Peña]

@Jeremy: +1 for that.

@Mat Yes, great piece of work!

Bitmap images can be converted to png's which would be easier to maintain...no?

All the best,

Julio

[Jeremy Ruston]

Bitmap images can be converted to png's which would be easier to maintain...no?

The issue is that the images are pictures of TiddlyWiki itself, and so will need to be kept up to date if the appearance of TiddlyWiki changes. The innerwiki plugin is designed for that situation, but we don’t currently have it integrated into the build process.

Best wishes

Jeremy

All the best,

Julio

On Thursday, April 30, 2020 at 6:08:50 AM UTC-4, Jeremy Ruston wrote:

Hi Mat

My congratulations. It’s great piece of writing by any standard, and very skilfully illuminates something fundamental about TiddlyWiki that also eluded me for a long time.

I think we should consider publishing it on tiddlywiki.com in its entirety, if you’d be willing. You’re using three bitmap illustrations which I tend to avoid as part of the main TW5 docs because they are hard to maintain. If it was being read within TiddlyWiki do you think it might be possible to phrase it so the diagrams are not needed?

Best wishes

Jeremy

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tiddlywiki+...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/cf0cbfba-1054-4433-b8e2-87325c94a804%40googlegroups.com.

[Michael Manti]

Well-done. As I'm just starting out with customizing TW, it was reassuring to read that my heavy reliance on the list widget is good TW practice.

[Julio Peña]

Ah, thank you for clarifying...understood!

[Hubert]

That was a great read, skillfully written. Thank you Mat!

Regards,

Hubert

[Mohammad]

Mat,

 I had some time this morning to read your narrative again. That is very informative.

Some comments from another approach

1. Under some recurring concept, I think among other items themes may be missing
2. Tiddler concept may be discussed first, that is the force behind creating the list concept
3. So everything in Tiddlywiki is made from another: materials from molecules, molecules from atoms or element (element can stay by itself but electron or proton NOT) so may be our smallest part in word are atoms and in Tiddlywiki is tiddler (consider fields like electron and title like proton or core)
4. In another view tiddlers are the building block of TW
5. These building blocks (like Lego pieces) can us used to create many things. How to use these building block to create different things? use List! The magic is List

You correctly wrote this description targets advanced beginners! I think we can have some levels

- beginner users only use TW for note taking (needs wikitext, add, delete tiddlers ready to use macros e.g tabs, list-links,...)

- intermediate users use TW for note taking and knowledge managements needs to use widgets among others

- advanced users use most of TW furniture to create complex knowledge management tools

And TW developer (NOT core developer) who create WebApps. 

Just some thoughts

[Birthe C]

Mohammad,

I think the problem is the definition of beginner. New to tiddlywiki, yes - but bringing different knowledge.

Look at the questions from beginners in this group. Would those questions be answered from a beginner tutorial?

The wish list is often, I want to do this, that and also much more, is that difficult and how do I do it

Birthe

[TonyM]

Birthe,

I agree,

Sometimes new users ask how to make a plugin and others want help with the toc. But I think the concepts are the most Importiant for new and sophisticated users.

Regards
Tony

[Mohammad]

Birthe,

On Friday, May 1, 2020 at 1:23:03 PM UTC+4:30, Birthe C wrote:

Mohammad,

I think the problem is the definition of beginner. New to tiddlywiki, yes - but bringing different knowledge.

True! I mean beginner as a general and I ignore their background!

[Anne-Laure Le Cunff]

Wow, this was a great read. Thanks so much, Mat, and agreed this should be on TW.com!

[TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Mat

Its certainly true that the "quine" nature if TW often inspires underwhelm. I tried getting attention to it on Twitter to no avail. Even with hardened readers of fringe material.

So I broadly grasp it is not in your thought. Or most any other, YET.

I think the issue devolves to concepts of function--do they help or not?

For my kind of brain KNOWING  TW is a quine helps a lot.

But that is for another thread. Yours is Good without it. A dopo.

Best wishes

TT

[Birthe C]

Hi  TT,

Please do explain?

The thought that everything is in that one file, saving upon itself ;-), that we could open that file in an editor and see what ever is in it (no secrets). That is around the point my brain stops.

Birthe

[TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Birthe! Your thought of TW is perfectly right! You likely not realise it is very UNusual.

Rather than ruin Mat's thread I commented here on the nature of Quines: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/tiddlywiki/xU-OvNupktI

Best wishes

TT

[Peter Buyze]

@TT

For me as a TW newbie without HTML coding knowledge but with a need of note-taking and knowledge management, knowing that TW is a quine (had to look up the word) does NOT help me whatsoever in understanding TW. That it is "one file, saving upon itself", as Birthe notes, is nothing unusual: a Word, Excel, Powerpoint, Markdown, ……… file does exactly that when you click on "save" after making changes.

So, what is the point in pushing the quine point? If it helps you to understand TW, great, but that does not necessarily apply to others.

3 May 2020, 13:18 by Tiddly...@assays.tv:

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tiddlywiki+...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/50e15b1b-c7da-40ab-a84f-2793e86fb361%40googlegroups.com.

[Birthe C]

Peter,

Well you can save a Word, Excell or Powerpoint file etc. But you have to run a program to do it, And also some program to use your file.

The point with TW is that it is one file with everything needed. That IS unusual.

Birthe

[Peter Buyze]

OK, point taken, but knowing that TW is quine does not add to my understanding of it. Just knowing that TW is app and file rolled into one is unusal but sufficient for my understanding as a newbie.

I also doubt that many people know what is a quine, or will bother to look it up. BTW, my webmail client does not know the word either - it shows a red squiggle underneath.

3 May 2020, 14:00 by strikke...@gmail.com:

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tiddlywiki+...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/4946b802-bd68-487f-bb94-c228d8585e6a%40googlegroups.com.

[PMario]

Hi Mat,

Very nice read! ..

The only thing that did upset me, was the abrupt end. ...

Instead of ending with: TiddlyWiki xxxxxxxxx

I would have expected something that would have brought me back to the intro, with a twist. eg: Tiddlywiki -- Lists in tiddlers, Tiddlers in lists

have fun!

mario

[Mat]

@PMario - thank you!

I didn't realize that end had slipped along from an edit I made - but after Jeremy invited me to adapt it for tiddlywiki.com it's all become a draft. I've actually continued working on it and I've identified quite a few additional Big Picture topics that I think are worth knowing about. You can see the current status here. The new topics at the end (again, all is just a draft!).

As I note elsewhere I'm not sure how to adapt the linear text into tiddlers because later text assumes one has read/understood previous text. Maybe your experiments with compound tiddlers will be able to solve this? I also don't know what to do about images. They're kind of needed for such long texts but, especially, the image pointing out the different fields is useful IMO.

<:-)

[Birthe C]

Mat,

I had not seen the last part of your write up. You are right some pictures are needed. When I first read about the tiddlers, I thought if substory could be used. (Maybe stupid thought - especially now that the documentation is growing).

Birthe

[Mat]

Birthe C wrote:

I thought if substory could be used.

That's interesting. I have totally neglected substories. Will investigate... but not now. Thanks.

<:-)