Repopup, Volant, Mentat

[admls]

Hi Everybody,

The new release of the Volant plugins are here. There are a number of bug fixes and added configurability in the Mentat config menu (if you're missing the resizers or window tabs, that's the place to look).

The biggest change is the addition of some very simple touch events. I haven't worked on adding other features yet. It may be a bit buggy as I haven't tested it thoroughly, but I thought I'd put it out there and let people take it out for a test drive. I also haven't updated the demo/docs to match the changes, yet. So beware.

By the nature of the thing, it still isn't suited to mobile. But it ought to be okay on something tablet sized.

The code is at https://github.com/admls/Mentat

And the demo is at https://admls.github.io/Mentat/

If there are any bugs, or feature requests, please raise them as issues on the github repo. That's a more convenient place for me to address them.

Best wishes,

admls

Edit: If you are checking out the touch features, hit the easy drag mode button (the one that looks like a hand). That will let you drag a tiddler from anywhere. Have fun!

[Mohammad]

Hi admls,

 I raised some issues on GitHub. One request: Is it possible to have a change-log tiddler to populate the changes including issues fixed and new features.

--Mohammad

[admls]

Hi Mohammad,

I've been using the history tiddlers of each plugin to track their changes. Do you mean one changelog for the whole system as well? That's a good idea. I could then simplify the history tiddler of each plugin and simply reference the main changelog. I'll get on that! Thanks, Mohammad!

Best wishes,

admls

[Mohammad]

Yes, it would be great to have that!

--Mohammad

[Mohammad]

Admls,

 I did not see those history tiddlers! They are great. I think you can list them in a main tiddler having it at the front page.

--Mohammad

On Friday, March 22, 2019 at 1:26:16 PM UTC+4:30, admls wrote:

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao admls

Wonderful stuff! "Mentat" is a particularly interesting name.

Mentats in Frank Herbert's book "Dune" are humans whose job it is to mimic computers after computers were banned by the Bulterian Jihad. 

See: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mentat.

Here is a Mentat at work: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMBb_tPPA8E

I will reply more traditionally later.

Best wishes

Josiah

admls wrote:

... The biggest change is the addition of some very simple touch events....

... By the nature of the thing, it still isn't suited to mobile. But it ought to be okay on something tablet sized.

[Jan]

Dear admls
Great.
Volant was a giant step forward which was comprehensible at once, but it took me some time to understand the logic of Mentat.
You have provided a tool for which i was looking for a long time... and it seems to be doing even more than I expected.

But I would like to make some suggestions to make it more understandable at first glance.

- it is great that Mentat provides a special storyview.
- the relative logic of the $/windows works great but the Mentat space seems to be limited to vh, it would be practical if it was unlimited at least to the bottom
- it is a Luxury that a $:/window can contain multiple Tiddlers. I think it would be easier to understand if each Tiddler would open in a new $:/Window.
- it would be great if a new Tiddler could be added  to a $:/Window and reordered by drag and drop.
-it would be nice if the Names of the contained Tiddler were visible in the windowbar and if you could configure the standart name from $:/Window to a subject to be able to store multiple Mentat-Pinnboards (like subjectxy/TiddlerName) generated by the prefix.
- Why do the $:/window-Tiddlers have this sort of historylist. They seem to work without even if you delete it. It makes them  a little unpleasant in the normal storyriver. Could this simply be omitted?

I have to say again that the thing you did there is so promising.
Thanks a much
Jan






PS: Deciphering Names...Mentat is clear now ... is Volant inspired by Mikhail Bulgakov's The Master and Margerita?

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[admls]

Hi Mohammad,

Is it possible to have a change-log tiddler to populate the changes including issues fixed and new features.

The next release will have a change-log in the demo! Great idea!

Hi @TiddlyTweeter,

Mentats in Frank Herbert's book "Dune" are humans whose job it is to mimic computers after computers were banned

Yes! I've been rereading Dune with my wife and it has been on my mind. I think the ubiquity of computers has made humans think more like computers. But then there's TiddlyWiki and other software that tries to make computers that can structure information more like a human. I find this tension pretty interesting. We are remaking each other in the other's image. Mentat is supposed to be an extension of TiddlyWiki's philosophy of radical configurability into UI.

Hi Jan,

it took me some time to understand the logic of Mentat

Yes. I'm finding this to be a recurring problem. The docs and demos need a lot of work. I haven't been able to communicate the ideas effectively, I think.

the relative logic of the $/windows works great but the Mentat space seems to be limited to vh, it would be practical if it was unlimited at least to the bottom

Part of the idea of the volant/mentat group of plugins is that every aspect of the ui becomes encapsulated in configurable containers. If you think of the classic storyview, you get a scrolling container (the viewport) that holds the storyriver and a separate scrolling container that holds the sidebar (which does not scroll as you scroll the storyriver in the viewport). Mentat tries to make that explicit and configurable. So you now have a sidebar tiddler, which you can position wherever you like. But you also have the story river container in the form of a story window tiddler. If you want, you can position a window tiddler to fill the whole screen (or the whole screen apart from the sidebar tiddler). It will scroll and behave just like the classic story river.

All that said, Engine and Mentat have been elaborations on the fixed volant functionality (think the $:/Volant tag). Absolute volant functionality has not be explored yet (think $:/VolantAbsolute). It is certainly possible that later plugins will change everything.

it is a Luxury that a $:/window can contain multiple Tiddlers. I think it would be easier to understand if each Tiddler would open in a new $:/Window.

I want window tiddlers to be position-able story rivers. So it makes sense to me that navigating to a tiddler will open it an existing story river. That said, hold shift when you click a link and it will open it in a new story window.  This does not work for creating new tiddlers however. That doesn't use the same navigation mechanism. Sorry.

it would be great if a new Tiddler could be added  to a $:/Window and reordered by drag and drop.

You're in luck! Drag and drop the window tabs at the top of each window to reorder the story river in that window. Also drag the tab to the window tab bar in another window to open it there too. Unfortunately, as yet, the tab that you drag to a another window will remain open in the original window as well. This pull request #3710 on github would make it possible for the tab to be automatically removed when dragged away. But we aren't there yet.

-it would be nice if the Names of the contained Tiddler were visible in the windowbar and if you could configure the standart name from $:/Window to a subject to be able to store multiple Mentat-Pinnboards (like subjectxy/TiddlerName) generated by the prefix.

I'm not entirely sure what this means. The window name issue is a real one. The windowbar is supposed to mimic the task bar on a desktop. Icons are used rather than names, on a desktop. I don't have a good solution for this yet. I'm unsure about using a contained tiddler title. Since story windows are story rivers, which tiddler do you use as the name? And I don't entirely understand that next part about pinboards. Have you checked out the Layout and Session functionality in the Mentat tab? That may or may not have something to do with what you're referring to.

Why do the $:/window-Tiddlers have this sort of historylist. They seem to work without even if you delete it. It makes them  a little unpleasant in the normal storyriver. Could this simply be omitted?

 

They have a history list for the same reason the classic story river does. Inside each window tiddler, the default storyviews hold sway. If they make use of a history list ($:/HistoryList) I wanted to make sure one was available for each window, which is, itself, a self-contained story river. Full refreshes should clear that though. As for opening window tiddlers in the normal storyriver: I don't entirely understand what that's for. Could you give me a bit more information about what you're doing? I don't really understand the use case; so I don't know how to design for that.

PS: Deciphering Names...Mentat is clear now ... is Volant inspired by Mikhail Bulgakov's The Master and Margerita?

It's from Gene Wolfe's Book of the New Sun. I've heard The Maste and Margerita is an interesting one, but I've never read it, unfortunately.

Best wishes,

admls

[Jan]

Hi admls,
thanks for your reply. You asked about my Use-Case:
I am a teacher and I would like to use Mentat as a pinboard to display material and results we are working on. Currently I am working on a php-mechanism which allows students to post their results...and this would be the perfect tool to sort and display ideas.

I would like to pin material and results to one workspace per subject/unit. This is why I would like to use the name of the Tiddler presenting the subject as a prefix for the windownames. The Window/Taskbar is great, I would like to know to which tiddler I am jumping - this is why I would like to show the name of the contained tiddler in the Taskbar...or to append it to the $:/Window-name as a suffix (and just display this suffix).

It would be nice to have a little more space to organize complex subject, this is why I asked about the size of the canvass.

In school, everything which is not really understandable is distracting  (or even frightening). For the sudents as well as for the colleagues I would offer this service.  This is why I asked about the necessity of the historylists. I think to prepare the material for a pinnboard, the standart storyriver will be more comfortable.

.

You're in luck! Drag and drop the window tabs at the top of each window to reorder the story river in that window. Also drag the tab to the window tab bar in another window to open it there too. Unfortunately, as yet, the tab that you drag to a another window will remain open in the original window as well. This pull request #3710 on github would make it possible for the tab to be automatically removed when dragged away. But we aren't there yet.

I could not find how to drag and drop. Could you send an image to explain? Everything is so new in Mentat, that it is not obvious (yet)

Many thanks and best wishes
Jan

[Birthe C]

Hi Jan,

In the latest release, you have to go to Mentat Config, to Enable window tabs. I really think they should be on by default, it makes everything easier to understand. Nice to have the option though.

Birthe

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao admls (tip: get a better name? :),

I been testing on a Windows 10 tablet in the latest chrome ...

-- On basic startup I can MOVE  "Welcome" with both finger and pen.

-- I can RESIZE it with finger and pen. 

-- Activate via Finger Pointer in floating sidebar and I can move and resize the Sidebar too, though not before.

An issue ...

-- The pointy finger toggle for activating move/resize is AMBIGUOUS in that its not entirely clear from its colour what state you actually activated.

Its a brilliant piece of work!

Best wishes

Josiah

[Jan]

Hi Birthe Hi admls

Thanks, I found the tabs now.
For school as my usecase it would be good to have this a little more intuitive.

I just tried to start a blank Wiki with the Mentat-plugin only.
The red sign says:

Uncaught TypeError: Cannot read property 'fields' of undefined

Which of the other three plugins are needed to start it?

Thanks and keep on doing this great thing!
Jan

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[admls]

Hi @TiddlyTweeter,

The pointy finger toggle for activating move/resize is AMBIGUOUS in that its not entirely clear from its colour what state you actually activated.

In the latest release, the pointy finger toggle gets a border around it when its engaged. Good catch!

Ciao admls (tip: get a better name? :),

I'll have to think about that.

-- On basic startup I can MOVE  "Welcome" with both finger and pen.

-- I can RESIZE it with finger and pen. 

-- Activate via Finger Pointer in floating sidebar and I can move and resize the Sidebar too, though not before.

I've only done a really naive touch implementation at this point. I tried Hammerjs and it really bogged down my machine, so I just did something simple in the interim. But this is an issue that I'm very concerned with addressing when I get the time.

Hi Jan,

I just tried to start a blank Wiki with the Mentat-plugin only.

At this point, Mentat depends on Volant, Engine depends on Volant, and Volant depends on Repopup. Mentat uses Engine as well, but I don't think it has to have it. I'll update the docs to make these dependencies clear.

Honestly, I did not anticipate the way you're using Mentat. So it wasn't made with that sort of thing in mind. I think that to do what you seem to be trying to do would require totally restructuring Mentat, probably splitting it into two plugins. I'm not sure what the best way to do that might be at this point or what the costs might be if I do. I need to give it some thought. I'd like to enable the kind of pinboard stuff you're doing, though I didn't make mentat with that in mind. I was thinking more along the lines of browser window instances inside of TW. So restructuring stuff to allow for pinboards within the classic storyview may take a bit of work, but I'll see what I can do when I get the chance!

Hi Birthe,

In the latest release, you have to go to Mentat Config, to Enable window tabs. I really think they should be on by default, it makes everything easier to understand.

I think you're right. The latest release has them turned on.

Best wishes,

admls (Adam)

[@TiddlyTweeter]

admls wrote:

...  I've only done a really naive touch implementation at this point. I tried Hammerjs and it really bogged down my machine, so I just did something simple in the interim. But this is an issue that I'm very concerned with addressing when I get the time.

Just a footnote. 

I think you are definitely in the right direction already keeping simple. Performance is good and function is good too. I can't see what hammer would add if you managing without it?

Touch screens are a bit of a nightmare. For instance, you swipe up to scroll but you can get weird things when you drag up with both tiddler moving up and contents scrolling up on long tiddlers. But nothing fatal.

Best wishes

Josiah