Building the next version of tiddlywebwiki

[chris...@gmail.com]

I've created a tiddler on tiddlyspace with some ideas about how the
next version of tiddlywebwiki might look and would appreciate some
feedback:

http://cdent.tiddlyspace.com/tiddlywebwiki2

tiddlywebwiki is the server side code that allows TiddlyWeb to host
TiddlyWiki classic.

I'm crossposting to both the [tiddlyweb] and [twdev] groups to ensure
some measure of visibility. Feel free to respond in either of those
groups or use the reply functionality on TiddlySpace.

Thanks.

--
Chris Dent http://burningchrome.com/
[...]

[FND]

While I understand the motivation, I'm not quite clear on what exactly
you're hoping to achieve or what prompted that idea.

Regarding lazy loading, the last few years suggest that's not something
TiddlyWiki classic will ever be able to support properly - not least
because there's insufficient momentum from plugin authors to modernize
existing code.

The rest seems like details that, while certainly worth fixing, wouldn't
really have much of an impact on end-users.


-- F.

[chris...@gmail.com]

On Sat, 11 May 2013, FND wrote:

> While I understand the motivation, I'm not quite clear on what exactly
> you're hoping to achieve or what prompted that idea.

Essentially it's like this: I want to de-emphasize the exceptional
nature of tiddlywebwiki by making it "just another plugin". If that's
going to happen anyway, then may as well take advantage of the
opportunity to fix some warts. So another way to word the question(s)
is: What are the warts in tiddlywebwiki?

> Regarding lazy loading, the last few years suggest that's not something
> TiddlyWiki classic will ever be able to support properly - not least
> because there's insufficient momentum from plugin authors to modernize
> existing code.

Perhaps the better term is "delayed loading". What /_tiddlywiki does
is load an empty tiddlywiki and then load in the tiddlers it wants.
The main reason this is good is that it can allow for some parallelism
in the browser and less smarts on the server. I do _not_ like smart
servers.

[PMario]

pasted from the tiddler:
tiddlywebwiki

* Being a plugin in the `tiddlywebplugins` namespace.

I'm fine with this one, as long as installation is just: pip install tiddlywebplugins.tiddlywebwiki
 

* Providing an externalized semi-lazy version for online requests (as [[_tiddlywiki]]@apps does) while still doing the _injected_ version for downloaded (offline) wikis.

I do like optimizations, that make page loading fast but from a TiddlyWiki users point of view lazy loading is a regression. You have to wait untill the stuff is loaded, to actually use it. Why should I want to use something, that is worse than the status quo. I think time invested here is better invested in pushing TW5 integration.
 

* Simplify TiddlyWebAdaptor and related plugins to reflect the security issues in modern browsers. Sync is dead, is it not?

Is there someone, who actually can hack TW2 adaptors?

* Clarify media types for the below especially regarding tiddlywiki5:
* rendering tiddlers
* content negotiation for tiddlywikis

I think there is a post allready, that discusses TW2 / TW5 media types, but I can't find the links

-m

[Jeremy Ruston]

Hi Chris

Good stuff. My tuppenyworth:

> Simplify TiddlyWebAdaptor and related plugins to reflect the security issues in modern browsers. Sync is dead, is it not?

It is still possible to save TW classic locally using Firefox with the TiddlyFox extension, and so offline sync may well still be useful to some users. I'm very sympathetic to the goal of simplification, but the offline sync feature remains one of the more unique characteristics of TiddlyWeb+TiddlyWiki and so I'd be in favour of retaining the capability if practical. (TW5 will be able to handle the offline sync use case in due course, which may make it less important to support for TW classic).

> Clarify media types for the below especially regarding tiddlywiki5:

>> rendering tiddlers

Currently, TW5 uses:

* text/vnd.tiddlywiki for text written in TiddlyWiki5 wikitext

* text/vnd.tiddlywiki2 for text written in TiddlyWiki classic wikitext

>> content negotiation for tiddlywikis

TW5 treats TiddlyWiki documents as special text/html documents, and doesn't use a special content type for them.

Best wishes

Jeremy

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Jeremy Ruston
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[chris...@gmail.com]

On Sun, 12 May 2013, Jeremy Ruston wrote:

> It is still possible to save TW classic locally using Firefox with the
> TiddlyFox extension, and so offline sync may well still be useful to some
> users. I'm very sympathetic to the goal of simplification, but the offline
> sync feature remains one of the more unique characteristics of
> TiddlyWeb+TiddlyWiki and so I'd be in favour of retaining the capability if
> practical. (TW5 will be able to handle the offline sync use case in due
> course, which may make it less important to support for TW classic).

What I meant was that sync capability was removed (the syncmachine)
and I don't think it has come back? In classic that is. Perhaps I'm
wrong and missed something?

>> Clarify media types for the below especially regarding tiddlywiki5:
>>> rendering tiddlers
>
> Currently, TW5 uses:
>
> * text/vnd.tiddlywiki for text written in TiddlyWiki5 wikitext
> * text/vnd.tiddlywiki2 for text written in TiddlyWiki classic wikitext
>
>>> content negotiation for tiddlywikis
>
> TW5 treats TiddlyWiki documents as special text/html documents, and doesn't
> use a special content type for them.

Does TW5 ever make an http request for a tw document?

[Jeremy Ruston]

Hi Chris

What I meant was that sync capability was removed (the syncmachine)
and I don't think it has come back? In classic that is. Perhaps I'm
wrong and missed something?

Doh, of course we did. So anyone who wants to use syncing won't need any specific support from the server - they will just have to load the sync stuff up as a plugin manually, is that right?

 

TW5 treats TiddlyWiki documents as special text/html documents, and doesn't
use a special content type for them.

Does TW5 ever make an http request for a tw document?

Only indirectly when importing documents/files. It expects TW documents to have the type text/html, and sniffs inside them to determine whether they are TW files or ordinary HTML files.

Best wishes

Jeremy

 

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[chris...@gmail.com]

On Mon, 13 May 2013, Jeremy Ruston wrote:

>> What I meant was that sync capability was removed (the syncmachine)
>> and I don't think it has come back? In classic that is. Perhaps I'm
>> wrong and missed something?
>
> Doh, of course we did. So anyone who wants to use syncing won't need any
> specific support from the server - they will just have to load the sync
> stuff up as a plugin manually, is that right?

I'm not sure I'm following you here? As far as I was aware the reason
the sync machine was pulled out was because save to server from a
file: based tiddlywiki broke in classic (with the advent of modern
browsers) and has not been fixed, either in core or in a plugin. I may
be totally misremembering history here...

So while functionality of being able to PUT and GET tiddlers from a
tiddlyweb server remains as it always has been, there is complexity
with regard to how tw classic can interact with it when offline?

[Jeremy Ruston]

I'm not sure I'm following you here? As far as I was aware the reason
the sync machine was pulled out was because save to server from a
file: based tiddlywiki broke in classic (with the advent of modern
browsers) and has not been fixed, either in core or in a plugin. I may
be totally misremembering history here...

I believe it's still possible to manually enable cross domain HTTP requests from a file URI on Firefox and Chrome, but that may have changed. But still, all of this demonstrates that any further progress on sync will be strictly for the intrepid.

 

So while functionality of being able to PUT and GET tiddlers from a
tiddlyweb server remains as it always has been, there is complexity
with regard to how tw classic can interact with it when offline?

Yes, "complexity" === "horrendous restrictions".

Best wishes

Jeremy.

 

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