The current state of TiddlyWiki5 for TiddlyWeb?

[Paul Power]

After reading up on what I could find, I wish to clarify what it is that I think i know.

In the past (9/9/12) cdent made a post to get people thinking about integrating / interoping TiddlyWeb and TiddlyWiki5.

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/tiddlyweb/BIRuexV0g-U

No interest was posted to this thread.

Since then it appears that TiddlyWiki5 can get and save its tiddlers on TiddlyWeb, but TiddlyWeb still delivers a TiddlyWikiClassic to the browser.

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/tiddlyweb/UcYrnvGwNUQ

Is this correct?

I want to work on a wiki for collaboration here at work. I would like to host a TiddlyWeb and deliver TiddlyWiki5 to the browser. I think that would be easier to manage.  Has anyone put any effort into this? What are the outstanding issues?

I do wish to put effort into this. It is just a matter of when...

-PCPIII

[chris...@gmail.com]

On Fri, 13 Mar 2015, Paul Power wrote:

> After reading up on what I could find, I wish to clarify what it is that I
> think i know.

If you haven't already done it is probably worth reading what you
kind find in response to these searches:

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/tiddlyweb/tiddlywiki5%7Csort:date
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/tiddlywiki/tiddlyweb%7Csort:date

As there's been a fair amount of discussion on the various ways of
using tiddlywiki5 and tiddlyweb together since December or so. Much
of that discussion centers around this issue:

> Since then it appears that TiddlyWiki5 can get and save its tiddlers on
> TiddlyWeb, but TiddlyWeb still delivers a TiddlyWikiClassic to the browser.
> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/tiddlyweb/UcYrnvGwNUQ
>
> Is this correct?

It is still correct that there is a tiddlywebwiki plugin for
TiddlyWeb that delivers a TiddlyWikiClassic to the browsers and that
there is no corresponding plugin for TiddlyWiki5.

While it is certainly the case that one reason this is so is because
no one has done it yet[1] there is a bigger reason:

Since tiddlywebwiki's creation and as TiddlyWiki5 has matured, it
has become clear that the method that tiddlywebwiki uses for
delivering content is not really ideal. It sets up a system where
there is a fairly complex server with quite a bit of smarts
delivering a lot of content in large request. This is slow and not
very flexible.

The newer method is for there to be a TiddlyWiki5 that can talk to one
or more fairly simple TiddlyWeb servers (that aren't running the
tiddlywebwiki plugin at all). These servers would be responsible for
storing content (tiddlers, bags, recipes) and managing access control
(policies).

To get this to work would require a relatively small amount of changes
to the tiddlyweb adaptor plugin that exists for TiddlyWiki5.

See this message (and its parents and children) for some related
information:

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/tiddlywiki/9StCkkvgDlI/B7t83V4bvaoJ

> I want to work on a wiki for collaboration here at work. I would like to
> host a TiddlyWeb and deliver TiddlyWiki5 to the browser. I think that would
> be easier to manage. Has anyone put any effort into this? What are the
> outstanding issues?

That link above lists many of them.

Something to keep in mind about the "new method" described above is
that there's nothing about it which denies the use case of a web
server delivering the TiddlyWiki5 to the browser. A web server would
deliver an empty but empowered TiddlyWiki5 to the browser, and then
the TiddlyWiki5 would request the content it requires from the same
or a different server. This is much like how Tank does it[2].

> I do wish to put effort into this. It is just a matter of when...

There is a small but growing group of people who are interested in
making it happen. Many of them frequent this group, the rest are in
the TiddlyWiki group (linked in the second search above).

I hope this helps provide a bit of info or guidance.

[1] It ought to be possible to do but there are likely some issues
to be resolved with slicing and dicing the content to inject into a
templated TiddlyWiki5 and given the current lack of resources and
the consensus that the new way is better there hasn't been much
investigation.

[2] https://tank.peermore.com/tanks/docs/TiddlyWiki%20Five
Tank relies on a somewhat customized build of the tiddlyweb adaptor plugin
that allows it to look to the URL to determine where to get content.

--
Chris Dent http://burningchrome.com/
[...]

[Paul Power]

Chris- 

 

Thank you for the info.

Since tiddlywebwiki's creation and as TiddlyWiki5 has matured, it
has become clear that the method that tiddlywebwiki uses for
delivering content is not really ideal. It sets up a system where
there is a fairly complex server with quite a bit of smarts
delivering a lot of content in large request. This is slow and not
very flexible.

Yes. This is a concern of mine given the large amount of data I would like 

to bring together from a variety of non-wiki sources.

 

Something to keep in mind about the "new method" described above is 

that there's nothing about it which denies the use case of a web
server delivering the TiddlyWiki5 to the browser. A web server would
deliver an empty but empowered TiddlyWiki5 to the browser, and then
the TiddlyWiki5 would request the content it requires from the same
or a different server. This is much like how Tank does it[2].

 Tank does look interesting and strikes me as very similar to what I worked towards

with an older version of TiddlyWeb.  I have not located any instructions on how 

to host my own Tank (or TiddlySpace). Is Tank available for others to host?

[Paul Power]

 

I just found this:

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/tiddlyweb/PERYbEtTO3g 

Perhaps one day I will be better about finding things on the web....

[chris...@gmail.com]

On Tue, 17 Mar 2015, Paul Power wrote:

> Tank does look interesting and strikes me as very similar to what I
> worked towards with an older version of TiddlyWeb. I have not located
> any instructions on how to host my own Tank (or TiddlySpace). Is Tank
> available for others to host?

Besides the link you've found there's also this:

https://github.com/cdent/tankdock

However, if what you're really after is TiddlyWiki5 + TiddlyWeb and
nothing else, tank is probably overkill. Better would be to crib
from what tank does in your assemblage of plugins and hacks. If the
end result is a lightweight tiddlyweb setup specifically oriented towards
that one use case people will be very pleased to have it.

[Jeremy Ruston]

Hi Paul

On the TiddlyWiki5 side, I'm keen to improve compatibility with TiddlyWeb (there are also some wholly TiddlyWeb things that could be done to improve integration, notably creating a TiddlyWiki5 serializer). I've come to the conclusion that the next step to improve things is for the TW5 core to adopt the bag and recipe model. That will enable TW5 to offer a user interface for bag and recipe manipulation.

Best wishes

Jeremy.

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[Paul Power]

Thank you for the response Jeremy!

I hope to be able to provide you some help with both TiddlyWiki5 and TiddlyWeb. I will have to see how much effort my employers want me to put into this.

An interface for bag and recipe manipulation would be very handy along with user administration.

It would be nice to have a user login to TiddlyWeb and receive thier assigned recipe. 

I think a filter of some sort for the SyncAdaptor would be handy (probably no not need to sync the StoryList).

When I get exactly what is wanted here at work, then I can find out thru the group here what may be of public interest and utility.

-PCPIII