IMPORTANT: "A" Hub Battery Replacement: A Review

[deerfencer1]

Listen up folks. I think it's time to review what we know so far about
replacing our front hub batteries and put the info into its own folder
here for future referencing. I'm a bit surprised/distressed to see that
Batteries Plus is still offering this "service" when it appears they
lack the proper programming equipment and/or software to do it
properly. Guess we'll wait and see how Tom fares with his rebuilt
battery hub from B Plus, but I am not optimistic, and hope he can get
his money back if the work proves unsatisfactory.

Here's what we know so far based on others' experience as well as imput
from LEVT, who remain the only ones authorized and qualified to do this
work, meaning they have the equipment and knowledge to do whatever
reprogramming is necessary to get the new battery hub packs working
properly and in sync with the WC system. Given the specialized and
proprietary nature of the technology behind our TF bikes, I strongly
recommend sticking with LEVT's recommendations for now:

First, this post from 6/22/06. Please note that Steve himself admits
that B Plus does not have access to the WC Battery Control Circuit and
that this would therefore be a "dumb" rebuild. This admission is IMO a
bit of a red flag since the SOC lights may be just one of many things
that B Plus cannot reprogram.

<<My name is Steve Johnson and I have a Batteries Plus Store in
Ventura,
CA. We had a great releationship with Wavecrest, selling over 60 of
the
Tidalforce bikes before they stopped production. The Tidalforce bike
was the only line we offered.

I personally own one of the M-750X's and it has been great for over a
year now.

We've now sold our last bike and even though it was great business for
us, due to the supply problem we are now completely out of the
Electric
Bike business.

We have the ability to rebuild the main Front Hub battery when it goes
dead.(400-500 charge cycles) We can also build secondary batteries,
but
they would not look like the ones available from Wavecrest. We don't
have access to their Battery Control Circut, so it would be a 'dumb'
battery with no charge indication on the bike's control panel. Also the

Wavecrest battery had an aluminum case and our battery will have a
plastic casing.

Both the A and B batteries are built/rebuilt with 11,000 mAh 'D'-sized
NiMh cells, spot-welded in our Tech-Center and would take several days

to complete. The original battery pack was built with 9,200 mAh cells,

so ours would be an upgrade.

The price for rebuilding the Front Hub Battery is $499, the Secondary
battery is $549.

If you have any questions about the batteries or the bikes, please put
it up on this forum, or contact me at b...@batteriesplus.com.

Thanks for the invitation to this forum,

Steve Johnson
Batteries Plus
b...@batteriesplus.com >>

Some months later (10/06) a TF owner named James posted this report
here describing his (unsuccessful) experience with B Plus replacing his
A batteries:

<<Hi,

So, a couple of months ago I started the process of getting my A
batteries replaced by my local (Phoenix) Batteries Plus franchise.
Although the people there were very nice, I have to report that the
job
was unsuccessful.

I spent $539 for 30 of those MAHA cells, including tax and labour
("TechBuild") to actually replace them.

The bike kind-of worked for about a week (although I was still getting
many motor cut-outs, as I was before the work), but then the battery
simply stopped receiving a charge from the charger (they tested the
charger and found nothing wrong with it).

So, anyway, to cut a long story short, they actually gave me a total
refund, took the new batteries out, and I'm riding around with a
regular mountain bike wheel!

So I guess I should say, don't bother trying to get your A battery
refurb by anyone other than LEVT (although, I've yet to contact them
and see what my options are). >>

Finally, LEVT's official response via our good friend Shellee there.
What Shellee writes makes me wonder why B Plus persists in offering
this "service" when it appears clearly beyond their means. If Steve
from B Plus is still reading these boards, perhaps he can respond.

<<Hello James and other friends,

>From 10-12 posting by LEVT:

Some time ago a question was posted to the group as to whether anyone
had
Batteries Plus or another company replace cells. Has anyone responded
to this?
If so, I missed it. We have to date only heard of one owner who had
someone
besides LEVT load the A wheel with cells. The Battery circuitry was
damaged in
the process and the wheel is currently undergoing BMS repair here at
LEVT.

EVERY wheel that has cells replaced has to be reprogrammed. This is
part of
the normal set up for the wheel. As far as I know, there is no way
that a
company besides LEVT with the programming equipment could replace the
cells and
have the wheel ready to roll. The wheel would still have to be sent in
for
reprogramming. I would be interested in hearing if there is a TF owner
who has
experienced this.

I guess we have an answer to this question, unfortunately it did not
end
well. We are all sorry you had this experience James. I am certain
LEVT can
remedy this for you, although we will not know until we examine and
test your
wheel what the damage is. This is the cost question which can't be
answered in
advance.

Refurbish or repair is nearly always possible. I would not say it is a
"BIG
IF." Sometimes the physical condition of the wheel components along
with the
remaining cell life and the cost of electronic repair may point us
to a new A
Battery wheel. This would be an exception, but does occasionally
happen. We
will recommend that solution which makes the most sense for each
customer's
circumstances. We do not charge a diagnostic fee, unless a customer
declines
either to repair or replace the component. In this rare case, there
would be a
fee for the time involved in testing the component(s), and
packing/shipping
back to you if you so choose.

As far as the shipping cost is concerned, our return cost of the A
Battery
to a Phoenix zip code looks like only $24. - 30 lbs and insured value
over
$1000. If you need a new shipping box for the return to you after
repair, this
would be an additional small cost. If you use a pack and ship service
for
getting it here, they will charge more. Perhaps that is where $60.
came
from(?).

Sometimes owners who are loosing range in their A Batteries chose to
add the
B Battery. Often they can forgo the A Battery rebuild until a later
time
with the added range of the auxiliary pack. The B Batteries are
working very
well and as mentioned previously, they allow the full functionality of
the
TidalForce technology. Even though you mention you are not interested,
it has been
an option chosen by other TF owners. The cost is $650. with the
rack.

Best Regards,

Shellee
L.E.V.T.

Light Electric Vehicle Technologies
_LEVTserv...@aol.com_ (mailto:LEVTserv...@aol.com)

1 888-880-1988
_TidalForc...@gmail.com_ (mailto:TidalForc...@gmail.com)

>>

[Richard Papa]

Good bit of investigative Journalism Larry. I did try and warn our Tom
about this.

Let's hope it's not as bad as it sounds and see what Steve says,

Rich

[Joe]

Good job on this recap Larry.
I totally agree that LEVT is the only folks to consider if you want to
keep the WC electronics intact after a hub rebuild. If you want to
gut the hub and rebuild from scratch with some lithium, lose use of
the WC charger, BMS and SOC, that's another story.

One last thing, Steve Johnson from Batteries Plus said:
"We have the ability to rebuild the main Front Hub battery when it goes
dead.(400-500 charge cycles)"

Steve's statement is in my opinion highly inaccurate. Rather than "go
dead" a regularly used WC hub (like any NiMH) will typically slowly
lose capacity, not suddenly go dead. My battery has probably seen
more cycles than this and is still as strong as ever after more than 2
years.
Best,
Joe

[Richard Papa]

Btw Larry,

You're a GREAT manager!!!

Cheers from us all,

Rich

[deerfencer1]

<<One last thing, Steve Johnson from Batteries Plus said:
"We have the ability to rebuild the main Front Hub battery when it goes

dead.(400-500 charge cycles)"
Steve's statement is in my opinion highly inaccurate. Rather than "go
dead" a regularly used WC hub (like any NiMH) will typically slowly
lose capacity, not suddenly go dead. My battery has probably seen
more cycles than this and is still as strong as ever after more than 2
years. >>

Excellent point, Joe. High quality NIMH cells such as the Saft
batteries WC specced for our bikes do indeed appear to be both robust
and long-lived--and as you point out, don't just die overnight. Of
course there ARE a host of things that can lead to the premature demise
of any rechargeable battery, especially "cooking" the cells via
overcharge, but our BMS and chargers were designed to prevent this.

OTOH I have a batch of AA NIMH (Powerizer) rechargeables from
Batteryspace that appear to be kaput after just a year or so of
use--I'd guess less than a couple dozen charges. Still cheaper than
alkalines, but nowhere near the lifespan they should be capable of. I
suspect the cheapo chargers that seem to dominate the market may be
responsible, but that's just a guess. Anyone know of a tested, high
quality NIMH small battery charger? I have a new batch of NIMH AA's I'd
like to try to make last longer. Market price right now is about
$1/cell for 2500 mAh AA's in bulk (24), which means you only need to
get a few charges out of them before they're cheaper than alkalines.
BSpace is currently selling a new brand called Avectoi.

Larry

[deerfencer1]

Batteryspace does appear to be now carrying a couple so-called "smart"
chargers that might be worth investing in--they're about $25. Here's
one I'm considering purchasing:

http://www.batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=11

[deerfencer1]

BSpace's other smart charger. This one looks more impressive, but
charges at twice the rate of the first one I posted (read higher
voltage input), and does not appear to have the slower, pulsed-charge
option the first charger has. Gotta think the slower pulsed charge is
better for the batteries, and the charge time factor is meaningless to
me (IOW I don't care if it takes 16 hours to recharge the cells if it
maximizes their cycle life). Any opinions from the battery-savvy out
there re this pulsed vs constant current charge issue?

http://www.batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=22

[Fluxface]

Pricy but well worth it.
http://shop.mahaenergy.com/store/viewItem.asp?idProduct=408

You can get this for about $90.00 from thomas-distributing.com

It the only one I found that can charge my Saft D cells properly.

It also brought a TF B pack from the dead (little sugery required) by
charging the cells indepentdantly.

Brian

PS you can still use the OEM TF chargers with any 36V NI-MH pack but
you need to hack the plug and also need a thermister, 3 wires, that's
it.

[JoePod]

I agree with Brian on recommending Thomas-Distributing and the charger looks good. I've used T-D for many, many years.
Best,
Joe

-----Original Message-----
From: Tidal...@googlegroups.com [mailto:Tidal...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Fluxface
Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2007 4:19 PM
To: TidalForce Forum

[L-A-commuter]

My A-hub finally died, and my B battery is down.

The delphi connector on my W/C-B-battery separated from the wire leads
(they seemed to be very loosely crimped into the delphi connector on
the end of the wires) so I called batteries-plus ventura store on
monday (1/16) (Steve Johnson's store) fishing the local stores for a
delphi connector. I was tersely told by "Jeff" that Batteries-Plus
Ventura will NOT support or supply any battery packs for tidalforce
products to include A-hub refurbishing or MAHA F-cell packs. He didn't
even seem to know what a delphi connector was.

I then spoke to a "Steve Johnson" (different Steve than the ventura
store) at Batteries-plus Camarillo (they are a former tidalforce
dealer) and received the same answer albeit much more diplomatically.
In all fairness tho,... I did not speak directly to Steve Johnson of
the Ventura store .

It's kind of disappointing that batteries-plus couldn't follow thru
with their claims on A-hub refurbishment. Their F cell auxilliary pack
might have been a winner if the BMS was up to par.

I sent a e-mail and a phone message to LEVT to request an RMA to
refurbish my hub battery. Just waiting for their response.

Thank goodness for EV-Tech!

DAVE

[plasmadust]

We stock the connectors, both Delphi and Andreson.
Give a shout if you need any.
Oh, if the shell is good on your Delphi, then you just need the
inserts. Assuming you do not have the $200 crimper, they can be
soldered just fine.
DC

[L-A-commuter]

Thanks again Doug! The point-one lithium-polymer battery you sell has
turned out to be my saving grace, keeping my bike on the road. At the
moment it's the only battery I have that works. (It's colder weather
performance is awesome too.)

DAVE