Fly Tying - Substitute Materials

[Paul Kalajainen]

I'm working on tying some "Gotcha" flies for a trip to Myrtle beach next month.  Everything I've found online calls for Pseudo Hair as the material for the wings.  I have a pretty substantial supply of buck tail at the moment, I'm wondering how different these materials are.  I'm fairly confident that I can get the fly to look about the same, but I'm not sure if it would have different sort of action in the water.  Thoughts??

Thanks!
-Paul

[TurbineBlade]

Urban Angler did a tie with that pattern the other last weekend and it was really helpful for me.  

I tied some small clouser patterns with calf tail the other day and had a tough time with some of them "fouling" on the hook.  Others worked fine.  There's probably a trick I haven't learned yet here....

I usually just stack the bucktail in my hand instead of using that brass-slammer thing.  I think you have to waste a lot of bucktail when tying to get the good stuff, but people in my family shoot a lot of deer each year with different projectiles, and it's pretty cheap to buy the colored stuff.  The best one I have is a red one from Urban.  You'd probably be fine using it -- it is a bit stiffer to me, but I've never had any fouling problems with it.  Yet.  

Gene

[Steve F]

Bucktail and pseudo hair are pretty different materials in that the bucktail wont give you as much movement in the water and is not as durable.  Pseudo hair is a much finer synthetic fiber that's closer to craft fur.  Calf tail may be the ideal natural for flies this size but tie one with the bucktail, call it a crazy gotcha, and see what you think.  Tho personally I'm a fan of the synthetics for these type files (pseudo hair/polar fiber/craft fur).

[Daniel Davala]

Steve is definitely right, bucktail will not move as well on a Bonefish pattern.  Calf tail is one of the best natural hairs for these types of flies.  After my time in Andros though, I now tie most of my Crazy Charlie/Gotcha type patterns with a sparse bit of rabbit strip (aka "Zonker Strip") and a little accent of rubber/silicone legs for a trigger.  Nothing moves quite like rabbit, and when you are casting ahead of/leading a fish, the undulating rabbit fur in the current seems hard to resist.  Cheap and easy to find in a wide range of colors too.

 

Dan Davala

On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 1:59 PM, Steve F <spfb...@gmail.com> wrote:

Bucktail and pseudo hair are pretty different materials in that the bucktail wont give you as much movement in the water and is not as durable.  Pseudo hair is a much finer synthetic fiber that's closer to craft fur.  Calf tail may be the ideal natural for flies this size but tie one with the bucktail, call it a crazy gotcha, and see what you think.  Tho personally I'm a fan of the synthetics for these type files (pseudo hair/polar fiber/craft fur).

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[Paul Kalajainen]

Thanks for the input everyone, I have some zonker strips so I'll tie some up with that.  Can't wait to use these.

[TurbineBlade]

Oh, okay -- that sounds cool.  Rabbit -- need to get some.  

Can you do the charlie/gocha with marrabou?  I'm learning here.  

Gene

[TurbineBlade]

Update:  I just tried out something someone suggested and tied in the tail followed by some thread wraps under the tail to prop it a bit off of the hook shank.  It *looks like it might work well!  I'll have to fish it this weekend and see.  

Gene

[Eric Y.]

Never been into the whole fly tying thing before, but I'd be interested to know what else out there I can use. I recently picked up a new Renzetti Traveler 2200 for next to nothing and have been working up some shad flies thanks to Dan's instruction at the show on Saturday. Anybody used bear, raccoon, goose or turkey? I have a good chunk of that stuff around - would be nice to find some recipes that I could use them in. Or maybe, someone has a good recommendation for a starter kit of materials?

[Danny Barrett]

I use goose and turkey for nymph tails or parts near the head of the mixed in with a collar.

Dan Barrett

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[namfos]

Where on the bird are the turkey or goose feathers from? I find raccoon tail fibers to be very tough to bind down on a hook, though I've never tied with fur from elsewhere on a raccoon. There's lots of feathers on goose and turkey you can use. For example, single fibers (biots) from either can be used to make self-ribbed bodies on small flies, mostly wets and nymphs. Sections of wing feathers from either can be used as wings on dries or wets. If you can find them, there's a few books with "fly tying materials" in the title that will give you some ideas - though you could also google "fly tying with goose feathers" which turns up 112,000 results.

Mark

[Daniel Davala]

Bear and other hair was more commonly used in times past, prior to modern dying processes and the rise in popularity and availability of synthetic materials.  Polar Bear hair is harder to attain and more expensive since commercial harvest has been banned for decades (for good reason).  If you do find some in a fly shop (usually in the N.W.), it most likely comes from an older pelt (pre-80's) such as an old bear skin rug or partial mount, often gotten from estate sales.  I have a few squares of it that I picked up in Alaska several years ago, and a friend gave me a few chunks too.  The hair is very long and crinkly, almost like calf tail hair but 4"-5" long.  I seldom tie with it though, since many synthetics do a better job, at cheaper cost, and with added sheen and translucence.  I'm saving the polar bear for some Atlantic Salmon patterns and/or an unforeseen traditional kick in the future. 

 

Black bear is easily found and is generally better than black bucktail since it doesn't need to be dyed though the hair is often shorter.  Something about the process of dying a bucktail black often results in the hair being coarser than when dying other colors.  While Black Bear isn't commonly carried at fly shops these days, you can often get scraps from taxidermy shops if you ask nicely and offer a few flies in exchange.  An example of an earlier recipe calling for Bear Hair is Art Flick's Black Nosed Dace.  Most current recipes for this pattern now call for bucktail in the three colors, and I have tied many accordingly.

 

Simply put though, tie with whatever you have.  Learning how to and when to substitute materials when tying is part of the art and process.  The more you experiment with different materials, the better you know how they will behave on the hook and in the water, and the more options you will have no matter where in the world you find yourself.

 

Dan Davala 

[Richard Farino]

If you’re talking about the biots, they’re the leading edge of goose and turkey primary feathers.  If you buy a turkey or goose primary, there is a long, wide side, and a short, folded side.  Pull the short side feather away from the stem and that’s the biot.

 

If you’re talking about marabou, they’re the chest feathers from all those delicious turkeys we eat during Thanksgiving and throughout the year.

 

 

R

 

 

Richard Farino

Urban Angler VA | 108 N. Washington Street  2nd Floor | Alexandria, VA 22314

(703) 527-2524 | fax: (703) 527-3313 | ric...@urbanangler.com

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[Eric Y.]

Thanks.

 

Basically, I am looking to tie with what I have stashed around my apartment to get a bit of practice in before I go dropping money on loads of tying materials - making sure I really want another hobby, or if I want to put the vice on ebay and pocket $100+. In doing so, it'd be good, but not necessary, if I could actually use those flies.

 

The turkey feathers I have are from a fan mount I never bothered to finish - mostly tail feathers but I have a handful of primaries and secondaries as well.

On Thursday, March 14, 2013 9:25:40 AM UTC-4, Dan Davala - Founder/President wrote:

Bear and other hair was more commonly used in times past, prior to modern dying processes and the rise in popularity and availability of synthetic materials.  Polar Bear hair is harder to attain and more expensive since commercial harvest has been banned for decades (for good reason).  If you do find some in a fly shop (usually in the N.W.), it most likely comes from an older pelt (pre-80's) such as an old bear skin rug or partial mount, often gotten from estate sales.  I have a few squares of it that I picked up in Alaska several years ago, and a friend gave me a few chunks too.  The hair is very long and crinkly, almost like calf tail hair but 4"-5" long.  I seldom tie with it though, since many synthetics do a better job, at cheaper cost, and with added sheen and translucence.  I'm saving the polar bear for some Atlantic Salmon patterns and/or an unforeseen traditional kick in the future. 

 

Black bear is easily found and is generally better than black bucktail since it doesn't need to be dyed though the hair is often shorter.  Something about the process of dying a bucktail black often results in the hair being coarser than when dying other colors.  While Black Bear isn't commonly carried at fly shops these days, you can often get scraps from taxidermy shops if you ask nicely and offer a few flies in exchange.  An example of an earlier recipe calling for Bear Hair is Art Flick's Black Nosed Dace.  Most current recipes for this pattern now call for bucktail in the three colors, and I have tied many accordingly.

 

Simply put though, tie with whatever you have.  Learning how to and when to substitute materials when tying is part of the art and process.  The more you experiment with different materials, the better you know how they will behave on the hook and in the water, and the more options you will have no matter where in the world you find yourself.

 

Dan Davala 

On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 12:55 AM, Danny Barrett <dannyt...@gmail.com> wrote:

I use goose and turkey for nymph tails or parts near the head of the mixed in with a collar.

Dan Barrett

On Mar 14, 2013 12:50 AM, "Eric Y." <theeri...@gmail.com> wrote:

Never been into the whole fly tying thing before, but I'd be interested to know what else out there I can use. I recently picked up a new Renzetti Traveler 2200 for next to nothing and have been working up some shad flies thanks to Dan's instruction at the show on Saturday. Anybody used bear, raccoon, goose or turkey? I have a good chunk of that stuff around - would be nice to find some recipes that I could use them in. Or maybe, someone has a good recommendation for a starter kit of materials?

On Wednesday, March 13, 2013 7:33:19 PM UTC-4, TurbineBlade wrote:

Update:  I just tried out something someone suggested and tied in the tail followed by some thread wraps under the tail to prop it a bit off of the hook shank.  It *looks like it might work well!  I'll have to fish it this weekend and see.  

Gene

On Wednesday, March 13, 2013 3:02:40 PM UTC-4, TurbineBlade wrote:

Oh, okay -- that sounds cool.  Rabbit -- need to get some.  

Can you do the charlie/gocha with marrabou?  I'm learning here.  

Gene

On Wednesday, March 13, 2013 2:40:40 PM UTC-4, Paul Kalajainen wrote:

Thanks for the input everyone, I have some zonker strips so I'll tie some up with that.  Can't wait to use these.

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