Hypertech and TL7
Kirt Dankmyer
same page. I'm cc'ing the Writer's List so they know what I've told
you guys. This has been discussed on the Writer's List so the other
writers are generally on the same page here as well.]
Firstly, you need to understand that there are different "flavors" of
TL7. Not all TL7 technologies work in all other TL7 Threads, or if
they do, they don't work as well, or the same way. Basically, each TL7
power has a different set of physics "cheats" that allow certain
things to be possible and to work really well. The Technosphere
version of TL7 is not guaranteed to work in the Magic Kingdom, for
example, or if it does, it might not work as well or require
adaptation.
That said, there is meaningful correspondence between TL7 Threads.
It's not some weird black box where knowing "Malaysia science" doesn't
help you understand "USSR Science." For example, being able to make a
TL6 single-walled carbon nanotube and measure information about it is
significant in any TL7 state. There's a lot of cross-functionality
possible, it's just that not *everything* works.
Creating a device that works in a broad spectrum of TL7 places is
kinda like making a device that can use both European and American
power grids. It can be done, but there's some hackery and extra effort
involved.
Hypertech is NOT the same as TL7 technology. It's easy to get confused
because it mainly comes out of the Technosphere. In essence, Hypertech
devices also use "cheats", but they're cheats involve cross-Thread
physics, so they work anywhere, or close to it. This is why a Thread's
Hypertech level is different than its TL. Tortuga has a low TL but is
Hypertech High, because those particular cheats work well there.
Nearly every Technomage "power" is actually a nanotech Hypertech
device built into the Technomage's body to allow it to be inferaced
with instantly, like magic. That's why the effectiveness of Technomage
powers are influenced by the Hypertech level.
Now, it helps to have TL7 science to be able to measure, notice, and
understand the Hypertech cheats safely, or at all. This another reason
why people often got confused, as most Hypertech devices are ALSO TL7
Technosphere devices. That is, they need TL7 to work, AND they need a
Hypertech level. This is one of the reasons why the TL7 generator is
useful to Technomages even though it doesn't affect the Hypertech
level.
The reason that the Technosphere is so good at Hypertech is the chips
in their head. Keeping all the information required to understand
Hypertech is very difficult to do without straining the human brain.
The 'Sphere uses its chips, and other TL7 powers generally use
powerful computers and a lot of time, which is why they're not as good
at producing Hypertech.
You CAN produce Hypertech without TL7 instruments, but this means in
essence holding all sorts of information in a human brain in a way
that is likely to cause strain. The early Technomages did it. The
physicist that bounced the Maestrom away from the TL7 USSR did it,
using only his own brain and a chalkboard. But he had to have
genius-level intelligence and a lot of time, and it was a lot of
strain on him (handled in the true USSR fashion by drinking too much).
Doing that sort of thing all the time could have serious psychological
side effects, which is one of the reasons why the Technosphere
developed polydimensional notation and the chips that allow one to use
polydimensional notation with ease, so that these matters of
cross-Thread physics can be easily discussed and understood among
Technomages.
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Kirt Dankmyer
campaign, but frankly that was always inconsistently enforced or not
enforced at all.
So, to my mind, its like this. Your powers are well-refined.
Technically they're TL7 but they have built-in Preserve Tech so you
don't need seperate Preserve Tech to get them to work. You just need a
Hypertech level. This puts you on par with magic users.
The thing you needed / need Preserve Tech for are Technosphere
implants that aren't defined as powers, and probably aren't even
Hypertech. For example, the implants that make it so you don't have to
eat, the chips that let you do advanced math that you need to *create*
Hypertech but not to use your implants, your Metaverse jack, etc. Like
most Technosphere citizens currently on the Daedalus, you had so many
implants you couldn't survive outside a TL7 environment, and unlike
those citizens, you needed to learn Preserve Tech because you were
leaving the Technosphere.
Now. I believe a lot of you decided your characters were removing
those implants, so you don't need Preserve Tech anymore just to live.
And I would argue that if you kept them, that there were some scenes
where, say, not needing to eat was highly useful.
Preserve Tech is useful in other ways, too. One device I see as
requiring a TL *and* a Hypertech level is the gate interdiction /
rerouting device that the JET uses. Since that was developed with Penn
State, I view it as a TL6 Hypertech device (a rarity), tho it probably
required some TL7 manufacturing tricks. But that means if you were in
Tortuga and the TL7 Generator was stolen, you'd need Preserve Tech to
make the gate device run. (This wasn't an issue at Feral Detroit as
Detroit is TL 6.)
Does that make sense? You didn't need Preserve Tech for your powers,
you needed it for thinks like your cyber-intestine. You CAN have had
that stuff removed and buy down your Preserve Tech (letting the skill
atrophy through disuse or pulling the chip that contained it) and put
points elsewhere if you want.
[CCing the Writers List in the off chance of disagreement]
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Carolyn Grodt
David Lunking
"A talent is formed in stillness, a character in the world's torrent."
~ Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
Kirt Dankmyer
including Kammer, but it wasn't well communicated to y'all, methinks.
David Lunking
Kirt Dankmyer
> One other question that has vexed several of us is the necessity of the 'Use
> Hypertech' ability. Supposedly, this Very Hard skill is required to utilize
> any sort of hypertech, but to my knowledge it has never come up in game, and
> seems unnecessary under the penumbra of 'Hypertech Engineering'. I believe
> only Technomages have access to or have taken the skill, and that none of us
> have taken it above level 1. Unlike the explanation of Preserve Tech above
> (which has distinct utility), this skill seems like nothing more than a 3
> point chargen tax.
>
> For an analogus situation, imagine esoterics requiring a 'Use Magic Device'
> skill in addition to 'Supernatural' proficiency.
CCing Writers on this one as well.
So, okay, right. Again, this is one of those cases where you may have
been told something or inferred something that's never been actually
enforced to my knowledge.
This skill makes sense to me, but only in the sense of Preserve Tech
in that it should be learnable without Hypertech Engineering. In
essence, it's the ability to understand and use Hypertech devices
regardless of understanding its principles of peration. It's useful
for people like Penn State Gate Techs who want to turn the TL7
Generator off and on.
It's still useful if you have Hypertech Engineering, but only for
"unfamiliar" Hypertech, e.g. to turn off a Hive-built TL7 Generator.
But yes, to use your own powers or to use most Technosphere-made
Hypertech devices, Hypertech Engineering is sufficient without Use
Hypertech Device.
I really see it as more like the D&D 3E "Use Magickal Device" for
unfamiliar Hypertech.
David Lunking
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Kirt Dankmyer
> 'Use Hypertech' was required for Technomage chargen, so this might be either
> a miscommunication, or a drift in intention over the last 3 years.
Yeah, well, ditto "Preserve Tech". Welcome to Threads. :)
Let's be brutally honest here. I think that Kammer, in his head,
imagined Technomages as more awesome than they turned out to be, and
charged character points appropriately. The thing is, since he didn't
communicate with other authors, they couldn't ever be awesome except
in his scenes, and even there he seemed more than happy to hose
people. At this point, the remaining authors are looking back and
trying to make stuff make sense. I actually think this stuff matches
the *spirit* of what Kammer was aiming for, if not the actual details,
and the intent is to allow you guys to be awesome in all scenes, but
not so awesome you overshadow everyone else. :)
> As to its utility in activating/using unusual hypertech devices, would that
> not be better simulated by a penalty to any Hypertech Engineering
> roll/skill, due to unfamiliarity with some/all of the operational or
> fundamental principles?
I'd allow both. In practice it would depend on the scene author and I
don't see the different approaches as mutally exclusive. Like I said,
I see the skill as mainly useful to non-Technomages.
> For a magical analogy, a Western Hermetic attempting to understand Middle
> Eastern djinni summoning might not know exactly what to do, but can still
> analyze the process in a methodical, scientific manner to utilize it, though
> not necessarily with the same degree of skill as his native school of magic.
That's fine.
> Also, from a 'balanced' system standpoint, a skill to use unfamiliar
> hypertech would imply the need for a skill to use unfamiliar magic, and I do
> not believe that is necessary.
Again, you are assuming exclusivity that isn't there. You're
overthinking it, dude. :)
> The comparison to D&D's 'Use Magic Device' implies that it should be useful
> on any 'wacky-tech' device, and if hypertech is basically hypermagick, then
> where do we draw the line between a wacky hypertech device and a truly
> magical device? This is based on our collective desire for a distinction
> between magic and technology, which is a genre conceit upon which we all may
> have differing opinions. E.g., if they really exist, then why can't my
> device trap ghosts?
In theory you could file a research BGA to create a Hypertech device
to do exactly that.
Here's a little secret. Though it annoys some of the esoteric players,
it's an established fact that magic in Threads is a scientific force.
There are classes at Penn State that teach magic, and the energy that
it uses, which is shunted through the extra-Branal connection that all
humans have (what some call a "soul"), is measurable by science.
The main difference is the source of the energy. Hypertech uses cheats
of cross-Thread physics. Magic uses an inherent personal power and
energy from another brane. A Hypertech device could in theory tap that
power -- ReUnification tapped it, after all -- but it's a largely
underexplored part of science and in Threads its considered a big area
of "canon doubt and uncertainty" where in theory science can
eventually understand it but in practice it's unlikely to happen
during the game as that's likely a task that will take centuries of
highly specialized research.
This is why you can use esoteric energy to power the Daedalus. It's no
different than using coal, once you understand it well enough, tho,
perhaps like nuclear energy, there may be side effects that you don't
fully understand at the moment.
Returning to your ghost trap example, IC it would be possible in
theory. Whether you can achieve it in practice within this lifetime
would be someting the Writer's List would likely have to make a ruling
on, with some intent of protecting each "niche" on the meta level.
(Personally, it's a small enough area that I'd be fine with Hypertech
"ghostbusting", but other authors may disagree.)
> On the other hand, if you/the writers want to make the distinction between
> differing forms of hypertech into a very relevant plot point, then Use
> Hypertech as you describe it above is extremely useful, and currently nobody
> can do it well. Also, nobody will be able to do it well this season, as the
> skill is Very Hard, meaning Very Expensive, barring arbitrary respecs.
Frankly, I like that idea. I already talked about different flavors of
TL7 in my original post on this email thread.
Carolyn Grodt
Kirt Dankmyer
> Hypertech ghostbusting = our Book of ashes characters, Kirt.
Then you understand why I would tend to support it as a writer. :)
Carolyn Grodt
Carolyn Grodt
David Lunking
I seem to have a fashionable scientist character pattern.Maybe I should break out of that. Bethany would be fashionable scientist #3.LOL.
Kirt Dankmyer
this sometime in the next week or so. Updating the wiki has been on my
agenda for a while now.
BTW while we're on the topic of point sinks, I'll probably be
initiating a writer's list discussion about removing the point cost
for Metaverse jacks.
>>
>> Maybe I should break out of that. Bethany would be fashionable scientist
>> #3.
>>
>> LOL.
>>
>
>
> Re: Use Hypertech, I suggest we, the technomage players, view it not as a
> tax to be a technomage, but rather as a cool ability that is useful in rare
> circumstances. The innate talent or trained skill that lets one figure out
> flavor of 'Yeah, I can make it work.'
>
> In a sense, it's Technomagical MacGuyverism - the ability to adapt to any
> given situation and make it work on the fly, but not necessarily suitable
> for downtime research/BGAs. It's like how Gate Techs can make the gate work,
> but there's no way they could design or build their own device without
> Hypertech Engineering or some other source.
>
> This also means the current level 1 skill that each of the Technomages has
> is probably the right amount, barring explicit writer support for melding
> divers TL7 flavors.
>
> Anyways Kirt, thanks for taking the time to talk this out and explain and
> discuss. It's been very helpful in clearing up some confusion.
>
>
> ~D
>
>
> To unsubscribe, reply using "remove me" as the subject.
>
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