Fun

[Sukunai]

Patrick mentions fun in everything he writes :) Just 'funning' you
Patrick :)

But today I was reading a post (elsewhere) and reflecting on the word
fun itself.

What is it to have 'fun' for fun's sake alone?

We mention a lot of things, and then add 'but it can be fun too'.
Really, it is ok for something to 'be' fun, but, if we set out to do
it for another reason, then it is valid to say it is not solely for
the purpose of having fun.

Your work might be fun, but it's work, and I think we can all agree,
you expect to be paid.
Just because you enjoy it enough to call it 'fun' doesn't mean it was
meant to be done for fun.

If the point was to learn and study, then, again, nope, it was not
done for fun, hence it is not being allowed to be termed 'done for
fun'.

Thus I play wargames to learn to study and to know the subject. It is
merely a pleasant side effect that it is also fun.
But it is actually an intellectual pursuit, and not done for 'fun'.

This I think will largely solve Patrick's problems too. Patrick, stop
making things meant other than for fun, out to be disappointing
choices for fun when the fun refuses to remain all the way through the
experience. Stick to only things meant solely for fun.

I play Civilization IV only for fun. I couldn't care less if I finish
the game. When it happens it is nice, but I play for fun. If I know I
am going to win, I don't need the game to confirm it. I don't get
anything special given to me when I do after all. At least with Poker,
a win can mean you have cash in your pocket. Some games CAN impart
tangible real rewards for winning. Recognition for a Chess win for
instance matters. If it's you vs a machine though, who cares if you
win? No one will know.

I build models for fun. it's nice to get them finished, but it's the
assembly part I do it for. The same with books.

So, what games do you play, merely for the fun?
This list will tell you a lot about how you measure what it is you
call fun.
I have a great many wargames, and to be honest, not one of them, is
played for 'fun'.
I have played games specifically for fun though. Most of them are
silly arcade games.

[Patrick]

On Aug 10, 8:16 am, Sukunai <sukunai.ni.y...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> So, what games do you play, merely for the fun?

I'm not sure I do anything merely for fun. The very thought of it
makes me a little uneasy. I'd feel I was just wasting time or doing
something childish and unworthy.

When I pause and reflect on the word "fun," it seems to me it's sort
of a place holder. It's a way of saying, "Well, I don't know why I'm
doing this, but I'm doing it anyway, and I want to keep doing it, at
least for a while, because--well, because I like it. And don't ask me
why I like it; I just do."

Behind all that, there probably is a reason why the speaker is doing
what he's doing. He's just not aware of the reason (or complex set of
reasons) and doesn't want to think or talk about it.

Even sex isn't literally just for fun--though people think of it that
way. There's more to it. It's an intimate form of communication, for
one thing.

Game playing, come to think of it, may be another such form of
nonverbal communication. Plato said you can learn more about a person
from an hour of play than from a month of conversation.

Now, solitaire gaming, or solo gaming on the computer, is another
matter. There you're not communicating with another person. Maybe
you're reflectively communicating with yourself--learning more about
yourself as you play.

Back down to earth: I used to play wargames, years ago, as a sort of
intellectual study. But it got to where I stopped seeing them as
valid vehicles for study. If I want to learn about war, nowadays I
read books or watch documentaries. When I play a wargame, all I ask
is that there be enough "chrome" to stir my imagination and enable me
to indulge in some military make-believe.

It's the same with all themed games, I guess. To me, it's about the
same kind of experience as watching a movie or reading a novel.

Abstract games are different. Lately I've been into dominoes and
cribbage--playing them on the computer and reading books about the
games. I guess it's mainly a form of mental exercise. But it's also
fun--meaning there's something else there besides mental exercise, and
I like it, but I don't know just what it is.

--Patrick

[Peter Clinch]

Patrick wrote:
> On Aug 10, 8:16 am, Sukunai <sukunai.ni.y...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> So, what games do you play, merely for the fun?

> I'm not sure I do anything merely for fun. The very thought of it
> makes me a little uneasy. I'd feel I was just wasting time or doing
> something childish and unworthy.

Fun is "unworthy"? Oh dear...

And "childish"... well, my main definition of maturity is not never
being childish, but knowing when you mustn't be. And there are
times when silly, fun games are just what's needed.

Finstere Flure/Fearsome Floors is one I'll play with adults just
for fun. There are quite a few I'll play with my kids just for
fun, and I do genuinely have fun too. Been playing a lot of Uno
lately, enough luck for them to do okay, enough skill to make it
entertaining. Same with Galloping Pigs/Pigs Trotters.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net p.j.c...@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

The University of Dundee is a Scottish Registered Charity, No. SC015096.

[Patrick]

I should've had kids so they'd remind me what fun is all about. Then
I wouldn't have morphed into such a stuffed shirt.

I complain about work, and I criticize my wife (who's much more
serious than I am overall) for not knowing how to cut loose and just
play. But all the while, I'm taking work upon myself and crowding out
fun in my own life.

I guess the closest I've come lately to a just-for-fun game is Mario
Kart. Bought it for my Nintendo DS just because it was so highly
rated and I wanted to see what it was like. It is fun. But right
away I started working at it, trying to improve--and getting irritated
when I'd lose. Yet I know a dexterity game like that isn't something
a 54-year-old like me is apt to excel at. That keeps it light, and
usually when I load up that game, I know I'm just doing it as a fun
change of pace.

Disciples II Gold is a PC game I sometimes play for fun of a different
kind. It's a bit like a fantasy novel I'm making my way through. As
long as I save the game frequently and allow myself to back up when I
get into a jam, it's just a story to lose myself in.

[Sukunai]

Sometimes people give to much credence to something written by a
person with letters after their name.

Fun is just fun, and play is just play.

Why does it have to be fun? Well the opposite of fun is well, not fun.
Ask yourself, do you derive pleasure out of things that are not
enjoyable?

Play WILL say a lot of things about a person, but, the likely most
important thing to learn about play, is it isn't so complicated. Now
you can reference literature ad naseum, and I will simply insist on
laughing at it in most cases. Play is simply for the sake of play.
Sadly adults have grown used to the notion play is only for kids.
That's unfortunate of course. You are old the minute you stop being
young.

Kids don't have involved reasons for why they play, they play because
it is fun. That's the only reason. Trying to layer onto it that which
isn't required is really a pointless example of sophistication.

Patrick mentioned sex (funny it's usually me that mentions it first
hehe). Yes sex is designed to allow us to procreate. Boy meets girl,
boy's body meets girls body, yadda yadda lots of sweating later and
boy has accomplished the goal of leaving his seed in girl. If the
conditions are right, girl ends up having baby. I actually had sex
with my wife for the purpose of making her pregnant in our eighth year
of marriage. Before that, it was only for the joy of the moment where
we make the funny face and enjoy the thrill of orgasm. Oh you can bet
I like sex just for the fun. I had my son after 3 months of purposeful
sex, but other than then, all 23 years of marriage it's been about the
fun. I like having fun at least once a day :) Some days I have fun
twice. I hate not having any fun at all for several days in a row.

As for the communication part. Well my wife says I don't say 'I Love
You' to her enough. That phrase is sooooo tired and over used. I
actually dislike it as it is used so casually I have trouble caring
for it when it is used so readily. I've made it clear to her, every
time we have fun, it is precisely the same message. 'Dear I don't wish
to have fun with anyone else, because I like having fun with you the
most in all the world'. Hey, if she insists on seeing it some other
way, I can't really help that eh.

I DO though, think, being covered in sawdust and knee deep in a wood
working project in a properly outfitted woodshop is every bit the
equal of sex. I might not be standing covered in sawdust naked and
having an orgasm :) But I find it as satisfying. Everyone has their
own understanding of what is fun and what is play though.

If you pointed a gun to my head and if you put me in a suit and tie,
and told me I was working in an office from 9 to 5 mon to fri and were
going to pay me 30 bucks an hour to do something sell furniture, I'd
tell you to just pull the friggin trigger because I had no intention
of doing it. I loathe the idea of wearing a suit and tie and existing
in an office. I'd rather be dead.

[James Engelhardt]

I'm lost. Who got invoked in this thread who has letters after their
name?

>
> Fun is just fun, and play is just play.

> Play is simply for the sake of play.

In the spirit of poking fun: get into circular arguments much?

> Kids don't have involved reasons for why they play, they play because
> it is fun. That's the only reason. Trying to layer onto it that which
> isn't required is really a pointless example of sophistication.
>

It seems to me that kids play for a lot of different reasons,
including figuring out their world, their role in it. Is that
sophistication? I don't know. But watching my daughter at play, I get
the feeling that play is deeply serious, though not at all somber. She
might not be able to give any reasons for her play--most preschool
children aren't quite that articulate--but that doesn't mean that
reasons are absent, does it?

James

[Sukunai]

James you might have misread the context in my comments.

To say a child plays just for the joy of playing, does not prohibit
them from playing intently.

A child may be totally serious about their play, and yet, that doesn't
need to mean it is seriously intense.

When I was a teen, I would dress up in combat clothing, combat boots,
web gear cammo paint a beret complete with military unit badge. I also
likely had a firearm in hand, in my case a hand made mock up, although
some of my friends had actual real firearms. To look at me, it would
have seemed like I walked out of a war movie. We routinely confused a
great deal of locals as we walked out to the swampy part of town. We
would then patrol against each other, and upon making a discovery,
yell bang and insist we shot the guy before they shot us :) We were
idiots and we knew it hehe. We simply didn't get our laughs like most
teens normally do. We didn't 'hang around' doing nothing much and
talking about nothing much. We weren't into vandalism (but then some
of the parents in the gang were Provincial cops eh). We weren't into
getting together to drink booze we were too young to drink, and we
weren't into drugs. We might have liked to spend time pumping some
teen girl full of dna, but nah we were always too peculiar to be
popular enough to enjoy that teen experience.

We were just happy to play war and it wasn't for any other reason than
it turned our cranks. We liked the military, we liked history, we
liked pretending.

Then we grew up and became wargamers with jobs and families and the
usual problems connected with getting together.

Some loonies think wargamers glorify war. I call them loonies for a
reason.

I only turn my back on wargames when the play element looks too much
like serious work. Because play is supposed to be the opposite of
work.

I've asked my son why he plays World of Warcraft so much. The general
gist of the answer is this, it's something to do in between sending
chat messages.
Sometimes our play is really just killing time and means nearly
nothing.

But that doesn't prevent those of the soft sciences pretending it is
so much more :)