Weapons still disallowed from Thingiverse?

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Have Blue

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Aug 31, 2011, 9:10:52 PM8/31/11
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Hello all -

As I'm a relatively new contributor to Thingiverse and a first-time
poster to this list, allow me to make a brief introduction before
diving into what will probably be a controversial topic. I'm a
mechanical engineer and one of my various hobbies is gunsmithing. I
also own a Stratasys rapid prototyper and am helping a friend to
complete a RepRap Mendel (printed on the Stratasys). I've used my
machine to test out grip panel ideas for pistols and paintball guns
(yet another hobby), and my latest project has been to make a rapid
prototyped AR-15 lower receiver: http://haveblue.org/ar15lowertests.jpg
(the one in the foreground was a 75% scale version to test the
viability of the concept) I made a few changes to the standard
receiver in order to strengthen certain regions to account for the use
of ABS on something originally intended to be aluminum, such as an
integral trigger guard and adding support around the front takedown
pin lugs and bolt hold lugs.

I'd like to post the receiver to Thingiverse and hear from others on
how it might be improved, but right on the upload page it says:
"5. Please don't upload weapons. The world has plenty of weapons
already."

In doing a little digging, I see various other weaponry items on
Thingiverse (including a very nice AR-15 mag follower) and mentions in
comments that the terms of service did in fact once prohibit weapons,
but have since been revised to allow them. Was the #5 upload rule
never removed when the ToS was modified, or is 'no weapons' still
official Thingiverse policy, despite the ToS?

- Michael
haveblue.org

MakerBlock

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Aug 31, 2011, 10:41:34 PM8/31/11
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I believe that's just a vestigial remnant of the old policy. People
have uploaded weapons, toy and otherwise, to Thingiverse.

I'd love to see your designs on Thingiverse!

GWJax

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Sep 1, 2011, 10:13:30 AM9/1/11
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uploading the lower receiver would not have any problem at all because
it is only a piece of the AR-15 and not the complete gun. Sure I have
seen many weapons on Thingiverse and have no problem with them. I'm
not really sure why they have that rule but really they don't make
people take them down.
I'd love to see what all you have and post away...

Jax

Mark Ungrin

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Sep 1, 2011, 11:58:14 AM9/1/11
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I imagine there might be some issues if someone posts an all-plastic
super-seekrit james-bond-ninja gun that you can print out and carry
through airport security. Also let's say you upload the complete plans
for a gun powered by a standard mini CO2 cylinder capable of shooting
nails completely through a human head...and some kid prints it out and
shoots a nail completely through a human head...who bears responsiblity
there, and how much?

...or if you post a knife that can be sharpened after printing enough to
hurt someone with - how does that interact with the U.K.'s notoriously
strict knife laws? Does it make Thingiverse liable for anything? Or you?
I have no idea - but I am sure it will come up eventually.

The ability to download and instantiate objects at will does raise some
moral and legal issues the maker community is going to have to deal with
more directly at some point. If a 3D printer could make an H-bomb from
scratch, access to 3D printers would logically need to be treated as
equivalent to access to nuclear weapons. Does that approach hold for
lesser weapons?

Everyone go read Diamond Age.

IMHO there will be regulations on the exchange of designs eventually -
there's no way around it. If we can establish a reasonable system now,
there's some chance that it will be reflected in what is eventually
codified. If not, I am sure that politicians and lobbyists would be more
than happy to come up with an unreasonable system for us later...

Mark

Forrest Flanagan

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Sep 1, 2011, 1:44:18 PM9/1/11
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There's faulty logic there. Access to machine tools and machining knowledge isn't restricted, but one can potentially get in trouble if discovered turning silencers on their lathe. It's not the technology that's hindered, just the application.

Mark Ungrin

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Sep 1, 2011, 3:16:17 PM9/1/11
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What happens if I give detailed instructions and a G-code file for
turning silencers on a CNC lathe to your 8-year-old and they get on your
lathe and make one? Did I do something bad? And (not necessarily
related) who will get in trouble for it if authority finds out? What if
it was the whole gun?

In practise society doesn't face this issue much because machine tools
are generally too expensive and/or dangerous for random kids to have
unsupervised access, but 3D printers will be ubiquitous before too long.

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Forrest Flanagan

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Sep 2, 2011, 9:34:14 AM9/2/11
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You'd let an eight-year old use a CNC lathe unattended? Technology really isn't at a level where that is a safe proposition. Even if it were, people that host things like the TM 31-210 Improvised Munitions Handbook don't get in trouble when some kid makes picric acid from asprin or a zip gun with pipe fittings and safety matches.

Luis E. Rodriguez

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Sep 2, 2011, 10:06:48 AM9/2/11
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3D printers don't hurt people. People do. Anything can be used as a weapon. I don't see the NEED for modeling weapons personally but its not my place to dictate that for everyone. A free exchange of ideas is what Thingiverse is all about, this country really. They just aren't as fun as other objects, IMO.

Luis E. Rodriguez

Mark Ungrin

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Sep 2, 2011, 12:23:49 PM9/2/11
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my point exactly - cost and safety issues have conspired to keep
independant manufacturing capacity out of the hands of 8-year-olds, so
other than a few isolated cases we've not had to worry about what they'd
do with it. Those kids who do get into trouble in this way have had to
put some effort into doing so.

The DIY revolution brought about by ubiquitous 3D printing is changing
this (for the better IMHO, my 7 year old has already done some creative
design work that we have printed out), but as with any new technology it
will raise some new challenges as well as new benefits - and if we as
supporters of these new technologies don't think about how we are going
to address them, the interests who oppose it will be more than happy to
do it for us.

I do not want to see a world where you need a license to operate a 3D
printer, and everything you print has to pass through some DRM and
safety software provided by the *IAA, FDA, ATF and CPSC first - but
there are people out there who are going to argue for that. Because the
children. And terrorists. And piracy. The best defence is to have
thought things out in advance, and work out at least some kind of
consensus etiquitte about posting designs.

I don't have any philosophical objection to posting weaponry - but at
the same time there should be more of a barrier between
$RANDOM_INTERNET_DENIZEN and a working firearm than pressing "Start" on
their 3D printer (and "Click here if you are under 18" won't cut it).
For the moment there still is, today's printers aren't quite up to it,
but in 2015? 2020?

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Aaron Double

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Sep 2, 2011, 1:02:51 PM9/2/11
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About your printer not being up to snuff, I materialize can print in voidless titanium with minimum wall thicknesses of .2mm and minimum details of .1mm.

Parts are damn expensive though!

I would go with your 2015 estimate over you 2020 estimate.

Aaron Double

Joe Kerman

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Sep 2, 2011, 2:26:50 PM9/2/11
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Specifically, thingiverse's goal is to "promote the free-flowing exchange of expression relating to members files, interests, activities and hobbies while maintaining high standards of respect and decency."

As a bit of a freedom nerd, its hard to see how you can be both. you are either a free-flowing exchange, or you police things for your own arbitrary standards of respect and decency.

Thingiverse is a great place to post and share ideas, but it is most certainly /not/ a bastion of openness and freedom. It never claimed to be. It is a corporate site, by makerbot Inc, whose purpose is to sell more 3d printers. Its only as open as is reasonable to their lawyers to operate the business, I have to respect that.


P.S.  and while im playing pretend internet lawyer, I would point out that society has already solved the issue of who to blame for violent crimes. I dont believe 3d printing adds any new angles to the law or societal need to deal with it. Weapon suppliers and manufacturers are rarely if never liable for violent crimes committed with their products. be it a book, a 3d model clearinghouse, or wal-mart.   Another fun fact: the legal age to hunt with a gun in most states is around 10 years old.  I think the law would say that gun manufacturing with your 8 year old would be "good preparation for small game hunting season" ;)  (you're on your own re: the silencer)

</morningrant> :)

Zach Smith

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Sep 6, 2011, 4:14:27 PM9/6/11
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This exactly.  While we @ MakerBot (the founders and proprieters of Thingiverse) are saddened to see weapons posted on Thingiverse, we want to try and respect the free exchange of ideas that we've created.

On a more practical note... it is an extremely hard and flamewar fraught process to draw the line between weapon and not-weapon.  We tried that once and it was a disaster.

Zach
Zach Smith
Chief Product Officer
MakerBot Industries

David

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Sep 19, 2011, 4:53:55 PM9/19/11
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So then I assume that if you are allowing weapons then there is
actually no restriction on content posted on thingiverse?

On Sep 6, 4:14 pm, Zach Smith <z...@makerbot.com> wrote:
> This exactly.  While we @ MakerBot (the founders and proprieters of
> Thingiverse) are saddened to see weapons posted on Thingiverse, we want to
> try and respect the free exchange of ideas that we've created.
>
> On a more practical note... it is an extremely hard and flamewar fraught
> process to draw the line between weapon and not-weapon.  We tried that once
> and it was a disaster.
>
> Zach
>
> On Fri, Sep 2, 2011 at 10:06 AM, Luis E. Rodriguez <lrodriguezm...@gmail.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > wrote:
> > 3D printers don't hurt people. People do. Anything can be used as a weapon.
> > I don't see the NEED for modeling weapons personally but its not my place to
> > dictate that for everyone. A free exchange of ideas is what Thingiverse is
> > all about, this country really. They just aren't as fun as other objects,
> > IMO.
>
> > Luis E. Rodriguez
> > Are you a Maker? <http://www.makerfairekc.com/>
>
> > On Fri, Sep 2, 2011 at 8:34 AM, Forrest Flanagan <solenoidcl...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> >> You'd let an eight-year old use a CNC lathe unattended? Technology really
> >> isn't at a level where that is a safe proposition. Even if it were, people
> >> that host things like the TM 31-210 Improvised Munitions Handbook don't get
> >> in trouble when some kid makes picric acid from asprin or a zip gun with
> >> pipe fittings and safety matches.
>
> >> On Thu, Sep 1, 2011 at 2:16 PM, Mark Ungrin <Mark.Ung...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> >>> What happens if I give detailed instructions and a G-code file for
> >>> turning silencers on a CNC lathe to your 8-year-old and they get on your
> >>> lathe and make one? Did I do something bad? And (not necessarily
> >>> related) who will get in trouble for it if authority finds out? What if
> >>> it was the whole gun?
>
> >>> In practise society doesn't face this issue much because machine tools
> >>> are generally too expensive and/or dangerous for random kids to have
> >>> unsupervised access, but 3D printers will be ubiquitous before too long.
>
> >>> On 01/09/2011 1:44 PM, Forrest Flanagan wrote:
> >>> > There's faulty logic there. Access to machine tools and machining
> >>> > knowledge isn't restricted, but one can potentially get in trouble if
> >>> > discovered turning silencers on their lathe. It's not the technology
> >>> > that's hindered, just the application.
>
> >>> > --
> >>> > Go visit thingiverse athttp://thingiverse.comand stay tuned to the
> >>> > blog athttp://blog.thingiverse.com.
>
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>
> >>> --
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> >>> blog athttp://blog.thingiverse.com.
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> >>  --
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>
> >  --
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> > athttp://blog.thingiverse.com.

Andrew Plumb

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Sep 19, 2011, 8:09:31 PM9/19/11
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The hard-limits are spelled out on the Legal page (http://www.thingiverse.com/legal) under Prohibited Content.

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--

"The future is already here. It's just not very evenly distributed" -- William Gibson

Me: http://clothbot.com/wiki/


Matt Joyce

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Sep 19, 2011, 8:13:19 PM9/19/11
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A man once killed his wife with a belt sander.  In a world without belt sanders we would all be covered in splinters.

I don't know where the ethics are in that.  Maybe there is a god and he is a cruel and vindictive sort.  Maybe there isn't one and we're just stuck trying to live with each other in a less than perfect situation.

Regardless, belt sanders are here to stay, and women are going to need to learn how to disarm their husbands if they decide to assault them with one.  Marriage is about commitment and nothing says commitment like disarming your spouse as they attempt to kill you with a belt sander.

That's my position on this issue.

Vote for me.

Windell H. Oskay

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Sep 19, 2011, 9:19:46 PM9/19/11
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> Marriage is about commitment and nothing says commitment like disarming
> your spouse as they attempt to kill you with a belt sander.

I don't understand. Where am I supposed to upload my K'nex gun STLs?

Edgar Castelo

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Sep 20, 2011, 2:23:47 AM9/20/11
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Ban weapons, ban Carbon (hah!), Ban your way into 1984's Big Brother!

If you are diligent little Mothers of Prevention, you might tun the World into this:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2037050/Racists-aged-THREE-Children-accused-bigotry-broccoli-head-calling.html#ixzz1Y9ZEhnfa

--
Go visit thingiverse at http://thingiverse.com and stay tuned to the blog at http://blog.thingiverse.com.

Jeff Keegan

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Sep 20, 2011, 1:17:21 PM9/20/11
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So it would seem that the terms of service adequately address this:

http://krebsonsecurity.com/2011/09/gang-used-3d-printers-for-atm-skimmers/

(in the line "Content promoting or providing instructional information about illegal activities.")

..Jeff
/=====================================================================\
| Jeff Keegan  ==  jke...@keegan.org  ==  http://www.keegan.org/jeff |
\=====================================================================/

Luis E. Rodriguez

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Sep 21, 2011, 2:04:45 PM9/21/11
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Isn't that what Instructables is for? Uncalled for but true.

3d printers don't kill people, people kill people? What hunter needs an AR-15 anyways!? Also uncalled for. Not a gun owner, no need for one.

Luis E. Rodriguez



--

Matt Joyce

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Sep 21, 2011, 2:12:14 PM9/21/11
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AR-15s are fun to fire.  Try it before you deny it.

Also, I've heard of hunters with rifles and shotguns getting mauled to death by the bears they were shooting at.  If someone was hunting grizzly bears for a legitimate and legal reason, I'd not be the least be surprised if they had a weapon comparable to an ar15.  Honestly that would not be overkill in that situation.

But, I know that some people derive pleasure / enjoyment from firing weapons.  Not necessarily at living things.  But just the fun of going out to a range and shooting targets.  Some of these folks enjoy firing esoteric weapons such as ar15s.  And the reality is, our constitution isn't just built around the right to bear arms.  It's also built around the pursuit of happiness. 

Denying people the right to pursue their happiness because of the criminal actions of others is not what this country was or should ever be about.  Hackers have stolen financial data from millions of people in the past few years alone.  That's in some ways way worse than what any firearm has done, at least in terms of the shear scale of victims if not the severity of the crime.  Does that mean that the internet should be turned into a police state?  I argue no.  And before you argue that the two are not analogous, I ask that you remember that in each the pursuit of individual happiness is at the very core of where all rights are derived.

That would be my counter argument.

Cheers.

-Matt

Windell H. Oskay

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Sep 21, 2011, 2:38:39 PM9/21/11
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> And the reality is, our constitution isn't just
> built around the right to bear arms. It's also built around the pursuit
> of
> happiness.

"Pursuit of happiness" is neither mentioned nor protected in the US
constitution:

http://www.usconstitution.net/constnot.html#life


Also, Thingiverse isn't just used by people in the USA.


Matt Joyce

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Sep 21, 2011, 2:42:22 PM9/21/11
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Still the advice of the founding fathers.



--

Mark Ungrin

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Sep 21, 2011, 4:01:32 PM9/21/11
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I agree, shooting things is fun. I'm a big fan of responsible gun
ownership, and no doubt we could all fight about what exactly that means
until the sun burns out. Just to try to drag discussion back to what I
think might be a more productive arena though...

1. Free sharing of design files for object X means anyone with access to
an instantiator with the required capabilities (3D printer, CNC mill,
whatever) can make X (that's the point of Thingiverse)

2. 3D printer capacity and accesibility is progressing by leaps and
bounds, stuff that was unprintable not long ago is routine now (and
pricing on CNC machines is also coming down fast). You couldn't print a
convincing zip gun very easily today, but the day is not far off as more
materials become available.

3. While CNC machines are somewhat difficult to make child-friendly, 3D
printers lend themselves more to turnkey operation and machines
targeting kids as end users will be out shortly (c.f. Origo).

Each of these three points is a good thing, I assume we all agree on
this. In combination, they are bringing the day when some random kid
surfs over to thingiverse, downloads an stl, runs off a gun and shoot
someone closer. I assume we are also all in agreement that this will be
a bad thing. If steam is coming out of anyone's ears at this point -
calm down, take a couple of deep breaths, activate brain. Note carefully
that the word "ban" does not appear anywhere here. Note also that these
are fairly undeniable facts.

I think that we can probably also all agree that the above will lead to
politicians using the word "ban" and "regulate" (also
"thinkofthechildren" and all the usual related memes) a lot. This would
also be bad.

So, what is the alternative we can present to this set of circumstances?
If we, the people who are the biggest believers in the benefits this
sort of technology can have in our society, decide we can't even think
about whether there should be any limits on the availability of anything
(because freedom) - then that discussion will happen anyway, without our
input.

My own feelling is that the most practical restriction point is likely
the unsupervised access kids have to high-performance instantiators - in
practical terms, we might wind up in a place where an 8-year-old could
buy something that will cough out ABS over the counter, but can't buy a
titanium printer by themselves. Their parents could buy them one, and
would thereby take on the responsibility of keeping an eye on what they
make.

I can see how people might disagree with this - so tell me what your
better idea is. But we do need to figure this out.

Thoughts?

Mark

> Are you a Maker? <http://www.makerfairekc.com/>


>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 8:19 PM, Windell H. Oskay <win...@oskay.net
> <mailto:win...@oskay.net>> wrote:
>
>
> > Marriage is about commitment and nothing says commitment like
> disarming
> > your spouse as they attempt to kill you with a belt sander.
>
> I don't understand. Where am I supposed to upload my K'nex gun
> STLs?
>
>
> --
> Go visit thingiverse at http://thingiverse.com and stay tuned to
> the blog at http://blog.thingiverse.com.
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>
>
> --
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Matt Joyce

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Sep 21, 2011, 4:09:19 PM9/21/11
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Well, I don't know.  I'm thinking about this, and to a degree you are right.  In the future it may be that someone will actually upload full plans for building your very own assault rifle.  And that would be advantageous to a number of felonious individuals.  But I am reminded of the argument that we don't need gun control, we need ammunition control.  And that kind of makes sense.

As of yet there's no 3D printer or CNC that will allow you to produce ammunition from downloaded plans.

Of course many people refill their spent casings themselves, but even that is somewhat controlled.

Maybe thingiverse can be a means by which hackers can actually produce a positive impact here.  Maybe a weapon could be posted that imprints or requires a registered unique identifier for each round spent.  I don't know.

But I feel like opening up the question to the larger community will have a greater impact on the issues in play than burying it in the sand and hoping it goes away.

It's worth pondering least ways.

  -Matt

Joe Kerman

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Sep 21, 2011, 4:25:23 PM9/21/11
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One thing that should bother thingiverse/makerbot inc about this thread is that if your ToS bans weapons, but you dont enforce it, you might as well just get rid of the ToS. Im not a lawyer, I only play one on the internet, but it would seem that claiming to provide a weapon free site, with weapons on it, would open you up to some serious liability.

Mark Ungrin

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Sep 21, 2011, 5:12:24 PM9/21/11
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Just for clarity's sake - I am less worried about felonious individuals,
who have much easier ways to get guns than printing one in most cases,
than I am about irresponsible ones. And by this I mean irresponsible in
the sense that we don't consider some people responsible enough to drive
a car or walk into a gun store and buy a gun on their own. A
computer-literate 8-year old today could download some STLs and print
something that looks like a gun without needing any training in
machining, CompSci or gun design. I don't think it will be that many
years before "that looks like" can be taken out of that
statement...that's the scenario I am more concerned about. Someone who
makes a gun because their friends at school will think it's cool. Elmer
T. Bank Robber will just walk into a gun shop or pawn shop and buy one
(or get one from his crack dealer).

Ammunition control is a good approach too, although the technicalities
may cause some problems. Also the fact that currently ammo is not very
controlled currently means there's a bunch floating around out there,
making the transition more difficult to enforce rapidly.

Mark

> <mailto:lrodrig...@gmail.com <mailto:lrodrig...@gmail.com>>>


> wrote:
> >
> > Isn't that what Instructables is for? Uncalled for but true.
> >
> > 3d printers don't kill people, people kill people? What hunter
> needs
> > an AR-15 anyways!? Also uncalled for. Not a gun owner, no need
> for one.
> >
> > Luis E. Rodriguez
> > Are you a Maker? <http://www.makerfairekc.com/>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 8:19 PM, Windell H. Oskay
> <win...@oskay.net <mailto:win...@oskay.net>

> > <mailto:win...@oskay.net <mailto:win...@oskay.net>>> wrote:
> >
> >
> > > Marriage is about commitment and nothing says commitment
> like
> > disarming
> > > your spouse as they attempt to kill you with a belt sander.
> >
> > I don't understand. Where am I supposed to upload my
> K'nex gun
> > STLs?
> >
> >
> > --
> > Go visit thingiverse at http://thingiverse.com and stay
> tuned to
> > the blog at http://blog.thingiverse.com.
> >
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to
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Edgar Castelo

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Sep 21, 2011, 7:24:58 PM9/21/11
to thing...@googlegroups.com
This has turned into a Political Debate, and, as I'm not blessed to be borne on the Country you guys have, (and some fools want to turn into Socialist Greece), i sure won't have to participate.
Ooops, just did! :)

justblair

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Sep 21, 2011, 3:30:54 PM9/21/11
to thingiverse
"Denying people the right to pursue their happiness because of the
criminalactions of others is not what this country was or should ever
be about."

1. I don't come from your country... Your values don't apply to me

2. Publishing weapons and their component parts denies me my
happiness. I ruins my enjoyment of the site and alienates me and
millions like me from the maker community

3. Thingiverse is a domain owned by Makerbot. As such the content
they allow on the site reflects the ethics of the company. Allowing
this kind of content on the site reflects poorly on Makerbot.

At the weekend I proudly displayed my recently completed Prusa at a
maker event. I was recommending the Makerbot products for those that
wanted an easy and fun entry into 3D design. If this kind of material
continues to be posted I will be suggesting just about anyone else...

For those that enjoy killing machines, it's a free web. Open up your
own website, publish away and enjoy your hobby. I won't be visiting.
Makerbot, wake up. This is a topic that will cost you revenue and
already is damaging the goodwill of the community that you service.

My two pence worth, sorry for stepping on toes. (But you stepped on
mine first)

Blair
> > Are you a Maker? <http://www.makerfairekc.com/>
>
> > On Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 8:19 PM, Windell H. Oskay <wind...@oskay.net>wrote:
>
> >> > Marriage is about commitment and nothing says commitment like disarming
> >> > your spouse as they attempt to kill you with a belt sander.
>
> >> I don't understand.  Where am I supposed to upload my K'nex gun STLs?
>
> >> --
> >> Go visit thingiverse athttp://thingiverse.comand stay tuned to the blog
> >> athttp://blog.thingiverse.com.
>
> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
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> >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to>>thingiverse...@googlegroups.com
> >> For more options, visit this group at
> >>http://groups.google.com/group/thingiverse?hl=en
>
> >  --
> > Go visit thingiverse athttp://thingiverse.comand stay tuned to the blog
> > athttp://blog.thingiverse.com.
>
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Windell H. Oskay

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Sep 22, 2011, 1:53:32 PM9/22/11
to thing...@googlegroups.com

> 2. Publishing weapons and their component parts denies me my
> happiness. I ruins my enjoyment of the site and alienates me and
> millions like me from the maker community
>
> 3. Thingiverse is a domain owned by Makerbot. As such the content
> they allow on the site reflects the ethics of the company. Allowing
> this kind of content on the site reflects poorly on Makerbot.

You have a couple of fine points there-- ones that are hard to argue with.

On the other hand, I happen to think that it would be nice to have an
exception for certain "traditional" classes of toys-- including toy
swords, squirt guns, and rubber band guns.

I think that a spiked ball at the end of a chain might be a nice element
for a costume, and would be reasonably safe, made out of extruded plastic.
But should it be banned from Thingiverse? These are tough decisions, and
ones that Makerbot needs to make.

Message has been deleted
Message has been deleted
Message has been deleted

David

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Sep 22, 2011, 4:36:27 PM9/22/11
to thingiverse
It will be a sad day when the gov gets involved with this.
Irresponsible uploading of weapons is a sure way to make that happen.
Message has been deleted

Edgar Castelo

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Sep 23, 2011, 10:48:53 AM9/23/11
to thing...@googlegroups.com
Weapons are totally terrible?
Not in North Korea...
What a PARADISE!

Hundreds of thousands on Concentration Camps, there to work as Slaves, and starve, or eat frogs, earth, or each other's crap...
But I guess nothings wrong, there are no guns there, no terrible guns, 'cos we all know:

When it's your God, the State, that has guns, and indulge in these fun activities, it's all fin and dandy. Nothing terrible there.

On Fri, Sep 23, 2011 at 2:59 PM, Mark Cohen <markc...@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi,

I do not think this is an issue anymore as I have come up with a
solution. I was looking at the posts on Thingiverse and saw a pattern.
If someone posts something against weapons then someone might agree,
some might disagree, many will login as guest and post stupid remarks
or something else and not be known. Many will twist the posters words
and expand on them in all sorts of different directions. It goes on
and on. Then I saw something different. I saw flowers for guns and
Anti-Ammo pendants. It hit me square in the face like an AR-15 bullet.
This was nothing but a handful of people who can't comprehend what
they are doing and the rest are just baiters looking to exploit the
1st and 2nd ammendments.

So I came up with a solution...

Beat their swords into plowshares, for every knife a sheath. Use the
same weapons against them. Twist their words so they agree with you.
Ridicule them. Particularly the @guest accounters.

This is why I have formed the new Thingiverse Weapons Are Totally
Terrible league.

Imagine from an AR-15 lower we derive a tofu press, for a bullet a sex
aid. The point is make something useful from it. I know many people
work hard on designing their stuff and would find it a bit ironic and
maybe think twice about it before uploading.

Here is a sample retort:
His Post

All the whiney "war" and "murder" tag crack me up... I guess I am not
used to being on a site with people from socialist countries or places
where people have given up their God given right to arms... Its a
little hard for me to understand the disarmament mentality being a
free man and not a slave or a "subject", but whatever.

Also, I own literally thouands of REAL .223 Rem/5.56 NATO rounds, and
I have never fought a war or murdered anyone. Do you suppose I am
using them wrong?

My Post

I don't know if I should tell you this considering you have all that
ammo around, but if you just keep it between you and me well... you
really are doing something wrong. I am pretty certain that if you want
to fight a war or murder someone then you will need a gun to put it
in. If you don't have one handy I think you can find the designs right
here on thingiverse. If you find the designs incomplete, I'm sure
someone will point you in the right direction. But be careful, I've
heard that these things are non-functional so maybe that wouldn't
work. I'm glad you agree with me that we have the right to arms. I
have two of them and two legs also. I also feel sad for people who
have no arms or even one arm. It's a shame Have you considered
donating to all the charities that help them. It would be a great
thing to do. Considering you have all that useless ammo around and no
gun anyway, why don't you consider selling it and giving the proceeds
to them. The other benefit will be you won't have to worry about the
things exploding and perhaps you no longer having arms to bare.

Another:
His Post:

Is everyone on this site such big cry babies? Its a friggen plastic
bullet. Awwww, I'm sad now, and I think I just piddled myself...

My Post:

I really can't answer the question of whether everyone on the site is
a cry baby as I really don't know everyone here expecially the @guest
person. I think everyone will need to answer that for themselves. I
say I am not. You are on this site, and since you piddled, well I
think you answered what you are. I do need to correct you on the fact
that it is not a plastic bullet but a file that has the potential to
be a plastic bullet, or even a metal bullet. But a friggin bullet? I
think not as I do not know of any material called friggen. Thank you
for contributing your thoughts on this subject. You must be exhausted
now and probably need a nap. Sweet dreams!


Here is another who was mocking me and twisting my words. notice he
does not like it.
My Post
I think this is terrific. But I was a little surprised that you left
out the holes for the bullets. As an AR-15 clip or grip this doesn't
work well. So I'm guessing you are agreeing with us that this is no
place for realistic or functional weapons by making this kind of
political statement in Art. Thanks for joining us. We welcome you to
the Thingiverse Weapons Are Totally Terrible league.

His response
It's bad enough you rant in the other threads, don't hijack things
I've posted for your noisemaking. And don't presume to speak for me.

My response
But Mjlonir brother, you've been speaking for me on several occasions.
I'm just here to help get your point across. The 1st amendment gives
me that right. The 2nd amendment is yours.


And of course the @guest account can be treated as a Schizo.

Regards,
Mark


On Sep 6, 4:14 pm, Zach Smith <z...@makerbot.com> wrote:
> This exactly.  While we @ MakerBot (the founders and proprieters of
> Thingiverse) are saddened to see weapons posted on Thingiverse, we want to
> try and respect the free exchange of ideas that we've created.
>
> On a more practical note... it is an extremely hard and flamewar fraught
> process to draw the line between weapon and not-weapon.  We tried that once
> and it was a disaster.
>
> Zach
>
> On Fri, Sep 2, 2011 at 10:06 AM, Luis E. Rodriguez <lrodriguezm...@gmail.com

>
>
>
>
>
> > wrote:
> > 3D printers don't hurt people. People do. Anything can be used as a weapon.
> > I don't see the NEED for modeling weapons personally but its not my place to
> > dictate that for everyone. A free exchange of ideas is what Thingiverse is
> > all about, this country really. They just aren't as fun as other objects,
> > IMO.
>
> > Luis E. Rodriguez
> > Are you a Maker? <http://www.makerfairekc.com/>

>
> > On Fri, Sep 2, 2011 at 8:34 AM, Forrest Flanagan <solenoidcl...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> >> You'd let an eight-year old use a CNC lathe unattended? Technology really
> >> isn't at a level where that is a safe proposition. Even if it were, people
> >> that host things like the TM 31-210 Improvised Munitions Handbook don't get
> >> in trouble when some kid makes picric acid from asprin or a zip gun with
> >> pipe fittings and safety matches.
>
> >> On Thu, Sep 1, 2011 at 2:16 PM, Mark Ungrin <Mark.Ung...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> >>> What happens if I give detailed instructions and a G-code file for
> >>> turning silencers on a CNC lathe to your 8-year-old and they get on your
> >>> lathe and make one? Did I do something bad? And (not necessarily
> >>> related) who will get in trouble for it if authority finds out? What if
> >>> it was the whole gun?
>
> >>> In practise society doesn't face this issue much because machine tools
> >>> are generally too expensive and/or dangerous for random kids to have
> >>> unsupervised access, but 3D printers will be ubiquitous before too long.
>
> >>> On 01/09/2011 1:44 PM, Forrest Flanagan wrote:
> >>> > There's faulty logic there. Access to machine tools and machining
> >>> > knowledge isn't restricted, but one can potentially get in trouble if
> >>> > discovered turning silencers on their lathe. It's not the technology
> >>> > that's hindered, just the application.
>
> >>> > --
> >>> > Go visit thingiverse athttp://thingiverse.comand stay tuned to the
> >>> > blog athttp://blog.thingiverse.com.

>
> >>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> >>> > Groups "thingiverse" group.
> >>> > To post to this group, send email to thing...@googlegroups.com
> >>> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> >>> > thingiverse...@googlegroups.com
> >>> > For more options, visit this group at
> >>> >http://groups.google.com/group/thingiverse?hl=en
>
> >>> --
> >>> Go visit thingiverse athttp://thingiverse.comand stay tuned to the
> >>> blog athttp://blog.thingiverse.com.

>
> >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
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>
> >>  --
> >> Go visit thingiverse athttp://thingiverse.comand stay tuned to the blog
> >> athttp://blog.thingiverse.com.

>
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>
> >  --
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> > athttp://blog.thingiverse.com.

>
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>
> --
> Zach Smith
> Chief Product Officer
> MakerBot Industries- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
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Andrew Plumb

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Sep 23, 2011, 11:06:09 AM9/23/11
to thing...@googlegroups.com
On 2011-09-23, at 9:59 AM, Mark Cohen wrote:
[snip]

> So I came up with a solution...
>
> Beat their swords into plowshares, for every knife a sheath. Use the
> same weapons against them. Twist their words so they agree with you.
> Ridicule them. Particularly the @guest accounters.
>
> This is why I have formed the new Thingiverse Weapons Are Totally
> Terrible league.
>
> Imagine from an AR-15 lower we derive a tofu press, for a bullet a sex
> aid. The point is make something useful from it. I know many people
> work hard on designing their stuff and would find it a bit ironic and
> maybe think twice about it before uploading.

[rest deletia]

Yup, that in a nutshell is why I came up with the "no bullets" pendent thing. It was to illustrate by example that models in themselves are Mostly Harmless, subject to interpretation, and can be totally remixed in unexpected ways. There is no need to ban anything unless it clearly contravenes the Terms of Service at http://www.thingiverse.com/legal


On a related note, I've filed two suggestion/enhancement requests via http://support.thingiverse.com/home:

1. Add per-user user 'ignore' or 'hide' to things.
- so that objects that offend sensibilities can be removed from one's personal stream.
- it should make it easier for parents and teachers in more permissive environments to vet content as per their expectations. (i.e. objectionable material will appear until the decision to 'hide' is taken)

2. Add "curated streams"; personal and shared variants

2.1 Shared Variant:
- Currently there is just one global "featured" stream. Add some "community curation" support so there can be some more clearly defined subsets of pre-screened things.
- Create an explicitly G-rated, kid-friendly stream.
- Create one or more Open Source Content (PG-rated) streams.

2.2 Personal Variant:
- Add subfolder support to personal "Favorites" so we can all manage and share things that we do (not) like.


Once there are more Community Curation options available, I think that would be the better mechanism for making content available to anonymous, non-logged-in members. IMHO, the "Newest Things" stream should only be visible to logged-in members who, by the ToS should be >17yrs or explicitly parental-consented to have that level of unfiltered access.

Andrew.

Message has been deleted

Whosawhatsis

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Sep 23, 2011, 12:18:53 PM9/23/11
to thing...@googlegroups.com
On Fri, Sep 23, 2011 at 6:59 AM, Mark Cohen <markc...@gmail.com> wrote:
...

> Imagine from an AR-15 lower we derive a tofu press, for a bullet a sex
> aid. The point is make something useful from it. I know many people
> work hard on designing their stuff and would find it a bit ironic and
> maybe think twice about it before uploading.
...

In a strange, sad twist of events stemming from America's puritanical
heritage, the sex aid would probably not be allowed while the bullet
would. This is a sad commentary on our nation.

Free speech is important, though, and I strongly agree with the idea
that the answer to bad speech is more speech. That's true no matter
your personal idea of bad speech is. I consider the category of "bad
speech" to include racism, sexism, homophobia, and suggestions that
censorship would be a good idea.

Message has been deleted

Have Blue

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Sep 23, 2011, 2:04:27 PM9/23/11
to thingiverse
Thank you all for your comments, and thank you Zach for clarifying the
official position. While it's not my intent to sadden you with
weapons, I really do want to help push the capabilities of hobbyist 3D
printing forward, and for me one such way is applying that technology
to another interest/hobby. I posted my receiver, and as hoped (and
expected), I received helpful suggestions on improving it as a
result. Much as I'm tempted to dive into a political debate, I've
decided to stay out of the fray and let others argue - the deep
questions have been raised, as they would have been sooner or later.

Personally, I wish the upload page said "5. Please don't upload *sta.
The world has plenty of *sta already." But if I am able to bite my
tongue, shake my head, and move on to the next Thingi when I see
something that I do not particularly care for, I hope that others will
be able to act the same way. Andrew, I rather liked your 'no bullets'
pendant for not only the reasons you stated, but also because it
ironically gave me the idea to remix it into safety selector icons for
the receiver (a language free improvement on the usual 'SAFE', 'SEMI',
etc.). And I think that's just the sort of interaction the
Thingiverse creators wanted to facilitate, regardless of our
contrasting views.

- Michael
haveblue.org

Tony Buser

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Sep 23, 2011, 2:17:37 PM9/23/11
to thing...@googlegroups.com
On Fri, Sep 23, 2011 at 2:04 PM, Have Blue <haveb...@gmail.com> wrote:
Personally, I wish the upload page said "5.  Please don't upload *sta.
The world has plenty of *sta already."  But if I am able to bite my
tongue, shake my head, and move on to the next Thingi when I see
something that I do not particularly care for, I hope that others will

I think the world is sorely lacking a quality 3D printed AR-15 rifle magazine in the shape of the Gangsta.  ;)

Mark Ungrin

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Sep 23, 2011, 2:25:02 PM9/23/11
to thing...@googlegroups.com
heh heh heh...
fight.jpg
Message has been deleted
Message has been deleted

Jeffrey Crews

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Sep 23, 2011, 2:40:15 PM9/23/11
to thing...@googlegroups.com
I think a large printed bullet, with space inside for cell phone vibrator motor, battery, and USB recharging circuit, is needed. At least by certain punky geek girls I know.

jc

On Fri, Sep 23, 2011 at 2:31 PM, Mark Cohen <markc...@gmail.com> wrote:
I feel a mashup com'in on....
Or a Bunny with an AR-15.
Please?

On Sep 23, 2:17 pm, Tony Buser <tbu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 23, 2011 at 2:04 PM, Have Blue <haveblue...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Personally, I wish the upload page said "5.  Please don't upload *sta.
> > The world has plenty of *sta already."  But if I am able to bite my
> > tongue, shake my head, and move on to the next Thingi when I see
> > something that I do not particularly care for, I hope that others will
>
> I think the world is sorely lacking a quality 3D printed AR-15 rifle
> magazine in the shape of the Gangsta.  ;)

Matt Joyce

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Sep 23, 2011, 2:41:03 PM9/23/11
to thing...@googlegroups.com
Maybe we could build trigger systems that allow fires to use ar-15s....

Matt Joyce

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Sep 23, 2011, 2:41:20 PM9/23/11
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s/fires/flowers/
Message has been deleted

Andrew Plumb

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Sep 23, 2011, 3:06:53 PM9/23/11
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That reminds me. Back in the late-80s/early-90s there was a "shotgun" method of injecting DNA into living cells outlined in Scientific American (I think) using empty shotgun shells. You could even order an experimenters kit to explore the technique!

...Unless you were outside the US; they returned my postal cheque. :-( Something about it being classified as a controlled technology, bioweapons, the first US-Iraq war, etc. Who woulda thunk?

A.

--

"The future is already here. It's just not very evenly distributed" -- William Gibson

Me: http://clothbot.com/wiki/


Matt Joyce

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Sep 23, 2011, 3:23:23 PM9/23/11
to thing...@googlegroups.com
Would you consider weapon designs to be something that should be available on archive.org?

I feel like the implications here are far more primal than thingiverse.  We're talking about data, what is in effect knowledge, and the preservation / availability of it.

I see this as being no different than banning books.

-Matt

On Fri, Sep 23, 2011 at 11:50 AM, Mark Cohen <markc...@gmail.com> wrote:
Well if I could put a bullet in a *sta or fire it from a gun I would
have an issue with it. But that is like comparing apples and oranges.
In your own words:
I have not yet tried fitting the receiver with the trigger group and
other components - I may need to ream some of the holes and then
sleeve with brass bushings to maintain the needed accuracy. However,
I'm very pleased with the receiver thus far and have a .22 conversion
kit that I'll be using once I'm ready for live fire tests. For zombie
extermination, I hope to use crank's excellent AR magazine:
thingiverse.com/thing:11636

One object is a joke and the other is meant to be used in the real
world. That sir is not a joke. For the following reasons:
1-It could explode.
2-In many states it could not be sold to you unless you are over 18,
not a felon and live in a state where it is legal. You are removing
these checks and that is irresponsible.
3-Although not a weapon in itself, if it does actually work, which you
hope it does, then it is not very far off from a complete firearm.
Again that is irresponsible.

You could argue with me all day about this but a *sta won't hurt
anyone even if TBUSA fits it with the AR-15. The only way you can get
hurt from that is if you swallow it or stick it where the sun don't
shine.
Message has been deleted
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Edgar Castelo

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Sep 23, 2011, 3:45:49 PM9/23/11
to thing...@googlegroups.com
Hey!
What about Doomsday Machines?


On Fri, Sep 23, 2011 at 8:28 PM, Mark Cohen <markc...@gmail.com> wrote:
I am not familiar with the site but I am only concerned with
Thingiverse. I already know that these things are available elsewhere.
I just don't wnat Thingiverse to be known as the main place to get
these things since I use it so often and do not ever want it to be
shut down. I also do not want the 3D printing biz to be associated
with these things but it is too late for that.
> > Go visit thingiverse athttp://thingiverse.comand stay tuned to the blog
> > athttp://blog.thingiverse.com.

>
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> > Groups "thingiverse" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to thing...@googlegroups.com
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > thingiverse...@googlegroups.com
> > For more options, visit this group at

>
> - Show quoted text -

--

Windell H. Oskay

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Sep 23, 2011, 3:46:57 PM9/23/11
to thing...@googlegroups.com
> Hey!
> What about Doomsday Machines?

I'm actually keenly interested to see the STL file for a doomsday machine.

Blair Thompson

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Sep 23, 2011, 3:47:27 PM9/23/11
to thing...@googlegroups.com

Matt.

 

Your argument is spurious.  No-one is suggesting banning this knowledge, just not accepting it here.

 

Thingiverse is a resource that is used by and contributed to by people from all over the world.  Uncontrolled ownership of weapons is not a global value (it’s mostly and American one), it’s a belief that is opposed by many millions of people.  When you have a niche interest that contrasts with a large section of a web community the sensible thing to do is to create a niche site where those that wish to pursue that interest can do so without either upsetting others or having to deal with the hostility of others. 

 

The other (less attractive option) is that you alienate those whose opinions differ to yours and drive them from the community.  You might be happy with that, but think it through and in fact everyone loses.  The community collapses, thingiverse becomes a niche site and Open Source 3D printing suffers.

 

Just as I will never understand how Americans can tolerate firearms in their communities I don’t expect Americans to understand my and others revulsion towards them.  Just accept that if thingiverse keeps publishing weapons parts then it will become a very much quieter site. 

 

Respectfully

 

Blair

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Mark Ungrin

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Sep 23, 2011, 4:09:24 PM9/23/11
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Not sure about the involvement of shotgun shells, but the technique is
alive and well...

https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Biolistic

hmmm...now that we're thinking abou it...should be a way of doing this
printably...

Matt Joyce

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Sep 23, 2011, 4:10:36 PM9/23/11
to thing...@googlegroups.com
Gonna do this on a line by line for convenience.

On Fri, Sep 23, 2011 at 12:47 PM, Blair Thompson <justblai...@gmail.com> wrote:

Matt.

 

Your argument is spurious.  No-one is suggesting banning this knowledge, just not accepting it here.

 


I disagree, thus my point.
 

Thingiverse is a resource that is used by and contributed to by people from all over the world.  Uncontrolled ownership of weapons is not a global value (it’s mostly and American one), it’s a belief that is opposed by many millions of people.  When you have a niche interest that contrasts with a large section of a web community the sensible thing to do is to create a niche site where those that wish to pursue that interest can do so without either upsetting others or having to deal with the hostility of others. 

 


Thingiverse could be seen as a private library.  It's owned by Makerbot / Zach Hoeken, but it's a library all the same.  What you are discussing is the banning of a book from a library in all but name.  Now private library or not, I will never agree with that argument.  You are attempting to use moral authority to tell people what they should and should not be doing with their 3D printers, and that is none of your business so long as they stay within the confines of what our laws are.  So don't pretend it is anything less than that.  It isn't.
 

The other (less attractive option) is that you alienate those whose opinions differ to yours and drive them from the community.  You might be happy with that, but think it through and in fact everyone loses.  The community collapses, thingiverse becomes a niche site and Open Source 3D printing suffers.

 


I uploaded my ass to thingiverse.  Are you offended?  That's too bad.  Guess what.  The world isn't going to make everyone happy all of the time.  We're all different and we've all got different opinions.  If you can't find it in yourself to tolerate people different from yourself, you are going to have a very hard time in life.
 

Just as I will never understand how Americans can tolerate firearms in their communities I don’t expect Americans to understand my and others revulsion towards them.  Just accept that if thingiverse keeps publishing weapons parts then it will become a very much quieter site. 

 


And that's anti-american demagoguery .  Switzerland is more heavily armed than the US.  Their entire population has automatic weapons as required by law.  Finland, New Zealand, and many other nations enjoy firearms regulation that promote the safe and responsible use of "weapons" in sport.  Hell, even great britain allows the use of firearms in game hunting.  So please don't pretend that the entire rest of the world is looking on with disdain here.  And even if they were, they could go ask King George II how that worked out for him.
 

Respectfully

 

Blair

 


Look I understand there is a culture clash here.  I am asking you to look beyond the "zomg automatic rifles" and really look into the underlying issues.  We're talking about a community coming together and sharing information.  You don't have to like all of it, but you shouldn't be trying to exclude people because you don't agree with them.  That's not what universal is about.  And last I checked, the site was called thingiverse, not safethingsinawalledgarden.
 
Cheers,

    Matt

Message has been deleted

Matt Joyce

unread,
Sep 23, 2011, 4:17:51 PM9/23/11
to thing...@googlegroups.com
The internet is not your backyard.

On Fri, Sep 23, 2011 at 1:16 PM, Mark Cohen <markc...@gmail.com> wrote:
It comes down to this:

Not in my backyard.
Post it somewhere else.
Thats it.
There is nothing else to compare it to.
No more, no less.

I know it is extremely narrow minded of me. Please don't tell me this
as that is always the next thing said. Do not compare it to someone
saying we should have never left the caves, etc. etc.

And as for the same as banning books well that is just as good as
saying its the same as banning shellfish. Some people are allergic to
shellfish and don't want it on their plate. See I can do it also.

I have already deleted all my designs from Thingiverse today as I do
not want to contribute to this and see it misused.

On Sep 23, 3:23 pm, Matt Joyce <mdjo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Go visit thingiverse athttp://thingiverse.comand stay tuned to the blog
> > athttp://blog.thingiverse.com.

>
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> > Groups "thingiverse" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to thing...@googlegroups.com
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > thingiverse...@googlegroups.com
> > For more options, visit this group at
> >http://groups.google.com/group/thingiverse?hl=en- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

--
Message has been deleted
Message has been deleted

Blair Thompson

unread,
Sep 23, 2011, 4:32:07 PM9/23/11
to thing...@googlegroups.com

 

 

From: thing...@googlegroups.com [mailto:thing...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Matt Joyce
Sent: 23 September 2011 21:11
To: thing...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [thingiverse] Re: Weapons still disallowed from Thingiverse?

 

Gonna do this on a line by line for convenience.

Let me return the favour…


I disagree, thus my point.
 

Thingiverse could be seen as a private library.  It's owned by Makerbot / Zach Hoeken, but it's a library all the same.  What you are discussing is the banning of a book from a library in all but name.  Now private library or not, I will never agree with that argument. 

 

Origionally you suggested that it would be akin to banning books.  Now you have extended that to banning books from private libraries.  I’ll accept that.

 

“You are attempting to use moral authority to tell people what they should and should not be doing with their 3D printers, and that is none of your business so long as they stay within the confines of what our laws are.  So don't pretend it is anything less than that.  It isn't.

 

Clearly I am not, and I will thank you not to put words into my mouth or imply intentions where I do not have them.  I never suggested that people should not pursue their interests.  My argument is that posting such files here is not the best place when the subject matter is controversial (Which this conversation proves it is)

 

 

 

I uploaded my ass to thingiverse.  Are you offended?  That's too bad.  Guess what.  The world isn't going to make everyone happy all of the time. 

 

As it happens I am sure your ass is quite cute.  No I am not offended.  However if I had uploaded my ass onto the site and it had upset people, my sense of community and general wish to get on with people would compel me to take it down… As cute as my ass may be!

 

We're all different and we've all got different opinions.  If you can't find it in yourself to tolerate people different from yourself, you are going to have a very hard time in life.
 

I am not suggesting that I don’t tolerate people of different opinions.  But there is no point in rubbing people up the wrong way,  May I suggest you check your post for tone?  It’s kinda ironic…


And that's anti-american demagoguery . 

 

No its not.

 

Switzerland is more heavily armed than the US.  Their entire population has automatic weapons as required by law. 

 

And hence they are more heavily armed… They also have a lot less people in their country and

 

Finland, New Zealand, and many other nations enjoy firearms regulation that promote the safe and responsible use of "weapons" in sport.  Hell, even great britain allows the use of firearms in game hunting.  So please don't pretend that the entire rest of the world is looking on with disdain here.  And even if they were, they could go ask King George II how that worked out for him.

 

I did not say that the rest of the world was looking on in disdain… I really would rather that we stick to what I did say not add new stuff in there.  I did say that millions of people don’t agree with firearms, I stand by that statement


 

Edgar Castelo

unread,
Sep 23, 2011, 4:36:11 PM9/23/11
to thing...@googlegroups.com
Do you guys realize the time you spend debating this to death, you could be having ideas about stuff to print?
I wanna see some Tesla 1 meter spark toys!
Message has been deleted
Message has been deleted
Message has been deleted

Mark Ungrin

unread,
Sep 23, 2011, 4:50:38 PM9/23/11
to thing...@googlegroups.com
I am not anti-gun the way Blair appears to be, but expanding on the
library metaphor, there are certain books that, without banning, you
still don't let kids sign out...

FWIW not sure library accurately describes thingiverse - legalistic
arguments aside, I would say the core (and value) of thingiverse is the
community and its collective contributions, not the storage space -
otherwise we could all just use dropbox to pass designs back and forth.
So there can be a legitimate discussion of community standards here.
Naked people don't bother me - whatever makes you happy. Naked people
running through playgrounds during school hours...not so much.
Discretion is the price for living in a world that has other people in
it. As a happy bonus, it also reduces the incentive for external
regulators to get involved.

On 23/09/2011 4:32 PM, Blair Thompson wrote:
>
>
>
>
> *From:*thing...@googlegroups.com
> [mailto:thing...@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Matt Joyce
> *Sent:* 23 September 2011 21:11
> *To:* thing...@googlegroups.com
> *Subject:* Re: [thingiverse] Re: Weapons still disallowed from Thingiverse?


>
>
>
> Gonna do this on a line by line for convenience.
>

> Let me return the favour�


>
>
> I disagree, thus my point.
>
>

> �Thingiverse could be seen as a private library. It's owned by Makerbot


> / Zach Hoeken, but it's a library all the same. What you are discussing
> is the banning of a book from a library in all but name. Now private
> library or not, I will never agree with that argument.
>
>
>
> Origionally you suggested that it would be akin to banning books. Now

> you have extended that to banning books from private libraries. I�ll
> accept that.
>
>
>
> �You are attempting to use moral authority to tell people what they


> should and should not be doing with their 3D printers, and that is none
> of your business so long as they stay within the confines of what our

> laws are. So don't pretend it is anything less than that. It isn't.�


>
>
>
> Clearly I am not, and I will thank you not to put words into my mouth or
> imply intentions where I do not have them. I never suggested that
> people should not pursue their interests. My argument is that posting
> such files here is not the best place when the subject matter is
> controversial (Which this conversation proves it is)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I uploaded my ass to thingiverse. Are you offended? That's too bad.
> Guess what. The world isn't going to make everyone happy all of the time.
>
>
>
> As it happens I am sure your ass is quite cute. No I am not offended.
> However if I had uploaded my ass onto the site and it had upset people,
> my sense of community and general wish to get on with people would

> compel me to take it down� As cute as my ass may be!


>
>
>
> We're all different and we've all got different opinions. If you can't
> find it in yourself to tolerate people different from yourself, you are
> going to have a very hard time in life.
>
>

> I am not suggesting that I don�t tolerate people of different opinions.

> But there is no point in rubbing people up the wrong way, May I suggest

> you check your post for tone? It�s kinda ironic�


>
>
> And that's anti-american demagoguery .
>
>
>
> No its not.
>
>
>
> Switzerland is more heavily armed than the US. Their entire population
> has automatic weapons as required by law.
>
>
>

> And hence they are more heavily armed� They also have a lot less people


> in their country and
>
>
>
> Finland, New Zealand, and many other nations enjoy firearms regulation
> that promote the safe and responsible use of "weapons" in sport. Hell,
> even great britain allows the use of firearms in game hunting. So
> please don't pretend that the entire rest of the world is looking on
> with disdain here. And even if they were, they could go ask King George
> II how that worked out for him.
>
>
>

> I did not say that the rest of the world was looking on in disdain� I


> really would rather that we stick to what I did say not add new stuff in

> there. I did say that millions of people don�t agree with firearms, I


> stand by that statement
>
>
>
>
> Respectfully
>
>
>
> Blair
>
>
>
>
> Look I understand there is a culture clash here. I am asking you to
> look beyond the "zomg automatic rifles" and really look into the
> underlying issues. We're talking about a community coming together and
> sharing information. You don't have to like all of it, but you
> shouldn't be trying to exclude people because you don't agree with
> them. That's not what universal is about. And last I checked, the site
> was called thingiverse, not safethingsinawalledgarden.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Matt
>
>
>
>
>

> *From:*thing...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:thing...@googlegroups.com>
> [mailto:thing...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:thing...@googlegroups.com>] *On Behalf Of *Matt Joyce
> *Sent:* 23 September 2011 20:23
> *To:* thing...@googlegroups.com <mailto:thing...@googlegroups.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [thingiverse] Re: Weapons still disallowed from


> Thingiverse?
>
>
>
> Would you consider weapon designs to be something that should be

> available on archive.org <http://archive.org>?


>
> I feel like the implications here are far more primal than
> thingiverse. We're talking about data, what is in effect knowledge,
> and the preservation / availability of it.
>
> I see this as being no different than banning books.
>
> -Matt
>
> On Fri, Sep 23, 2011 at 11:50 AM, Mark Cohen <markc...@gmail.com
> <mailto:markc...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Well if I could put a bullet in a *sta or fire it from a gun I would
> have an issue with it. But that is like comparing apples and oranges.
> In your own words:
> I have not yet tried fitting the receiver with the trigger group and
> other components - I may need to ream some of the holes and then
> sleeve with brass bushings to maintain the needed accuracy. However,
> I'm very pleased with the receiver thus far and have a .22 conversion
> kit that I'll be using once I'm ready for live fire tests. For zombie
> extermination, I hope to use crank's excellent AR magazine:

> thingiverse.com/thing:11636 <http://thingiverse.com/thing:11636>


>
> One object is a joke and the other is meant to be used in the real
> world. That sir is not a joke. For the following reasons:
> 1-It could explode.
> 2-In many states it could not be sold to you unless you are over 18,
> not a felon and live in a state where it is legal. You are removing
> these checks and that is irresponsible.
> 3-Although not a weapon in itself, if it does actually work, which you
> hope it does, then it is not very far off from a complete firearm.
> Again that is irresponsible.
>
> You could argue with me all day about this but a *sta won't hurt
> anyone even if TBUSA fits it with the AR-15. The only way you can get
> hurt from that is if you swallow it or stick it where the sun don't
> shine.
>
>
>
> On Sep 23, 2:04 pm, Have Blue <haveblue...@gmail.com

> <mailto:haveblue...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> > Thank you all for your comments, and thank you Zach for clarifying the
> > official position. While it's not my intent to sadden you with
> > weapons, I really do want to help push the capabilities of hobbyist 3D
> > printing forward, and for me one such way is applying that technology
> > to another interest/hobby. I posted my receiver, and as hoped (and
> > expected), I received helpful suggestions on improving it as a
> > result. Much as I'm tempted to dive into a political debate, I've
> > decided to stay out of the fray and let others argue - the deep
> > questions have been raised, as they would have been sooner or later.
> >
> > Personally, I wish the upload page said "5. Please don't upload *sta.
> > The world has plenty of *sta already." But if I am able to bite my
> > tongue, shake my head, and move on to the next Thingi when I see
> > something that I do not particularly care for, I hope that others will
> > be able to act the same way. Andrew, I rather liked your 'no bullets'
> > pendant for not only the reasons you stated, but also because it
> > ironically gave me the idea to remix it into safety selector icons for
> > the receiver (a language free improvement on the usual 'SAFE', 'SEMI',
> > etc.). And I think that's just the sort of interaction the
> > Thingiverse creators wanted to facilitate, regardless of our
> > contrasting views.
> >
> > - Michael

> > haveblue.org <http://haveblue.org>


>
> --
> Go visit thingiverse at http://thingiverse.com and stay tuned to the
> blog at http://blog.thingiverse.com.
>
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "thingiverse" group.
> To post to this group, send email to thing...@googlegroups.com

> <mailto:thing...@googlegroups.com>


> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> thingiverse...@googlegroups.com

> <mailto:thingiverse%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>


> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/thingiverse?hl=en
>
>
>
> --
>
> Go visit thingiverse at http://thingiverse.com and stay tuned to the
> blog at http://blog.thingiverse.com.
>
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "thingiverse" group.
> To post to this group, send email to thing...@googlegroups.com

> <mailto:thing...@googlegroups.com>


> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> thingiverse...@googlegroups.com

> <mailto:thingiverse...@googlegroups.com>


> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/thingiverse?hl=en
>
> --
>
> Go visit thingiverse at http://thingiverse.com and stay tuned to the
> blog at http://blog.thingiverse.com.
>
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "thingiverse" group.
> To post to this group, send email to thing...@googlegroups.com

> <mailto:thing...@googlegroups.com>


> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> thingiverse...@googlegroups.com

> <mailto:thingiverse%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>


> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/thingiverse?hl=en
>
>
>
> --
> Go visit thingiverse at http://thingiverse.com and stay tuned to the
> blog at http://blog.thingiverse.com.
>
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
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> To post to this group, send email to thing...@googlegroups.com

> <mailto:thing...@googlegroups.com>


> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> thingiverse...@googlegroups.com

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Matt Joyce

unread,
Sep 23, 2011, 4:53:18 PM9/23/11
to thing...@googlegroups.com
Knowledge is power, and it's power you don't actually need any training to enjoy. =D

Scary stuff I know.

On Fri, Sep 23, 2011 at 1:36 PM, Mark Cohen <markc...@gmail.com> wrote:
You said:

>And that's anti-american demagoguery .  Switzerland is more heavily armed
>than the US.  Their entire population has automatic weapons as required by
>law.  Finland, New Zealand, and many other nations enjoy firearms regulation
>that promote the safe and responsible use of "weapons" in sport.

But the point is as you have just made clear is that they get the
training to go along with it.
They just don't get it handed to them. You are handing it to them
right now. You are being irresponsible.
I am sure people would not think very highly of this in Norway right
now.



On Sep 23, 4:10 pm, Matt Joyce <mdjo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Gonna do this on a line by line for convenience.
>
> On Fri, Sep 23, 2011 at 12:47 PM, Blair Thompson <
>
> justblairthomp...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Matt.****
>
> > ** **

>
> > Your argument is spurious.  No-one is suggesting banning this knowledge,
> > just not accepting it here.****
>
> > **

>
> I disagree, thus my point.
>
> > **

>
> > Thingiverse is a resource that is used by and contributed to by people from
> > all over the world.  Uncontrolled ownership of weapons is not a global value
> > (it’s mostly and American one), it’s a belief that is opposed by many
> > millions of people.  When you have a niche interest that contrasts with a
> > large section of a web community the sensible thing to do is to create a
> > niche site where those that wish to pursue that interest can do so without
> > either upsetting others or having to deal with the hostility of others.  *
> > ***
>
> > **

>
> Thingiverse could be seen as a private library.  It's owned by Makerbot /
> Zach Hoeken, but it's a library all the same.  What you are discussing is
> the banning of a book from a library in all but name.  Now private library
> or not, I will never agree with that argument.  You are attempting to use
> moral authority to tell people what they should and should not be doing with
> their 3D printers, and that is none of your business so long as they stay
> within the confines of what our laws are.  So don't pretend it is anything
> less than that.  It isn't.
>
> > **

>
> > The other (less attractive option) is that you alienate those whose
> > opinions differ to yours and drive them from the community.  You might be
> > happy with that, but think it through and in fact everyone loses.  The
> > community collapses, thingiverse becomes a niche site and Open Source 3D
> > printing suffers.****
>
> > **

>
> I uploaded my ass to thingiverse.  Are you offended?  That's too bad.  Guess
> what.  The world isn't going to make everyone happy all of the time.  We're
> all different and we've all got different opinions.  If you can't find it in
> yourself to tolerate people different from yourself, you are going to have a
> very hard time in life.
>
> > **

>
> > Just as I will never understand how Americans can tolerate firearms in
> > their communities I don’t expect Americans to understand my and others
> > revulsion towards them.  Just accept that if thingiverse keeps publishing