Weapons still disallowed from Thingiverse?
Have Blue
As I'm a relatively new contributor to Thingiverse and a first-time
poster to this list, allow me to make a brief introduction before
diving into what will probably be a controversial topic. I'm a
mechanical engineer and one of my various hobbies is gunsmithing. I
also own a Stratasys rapid prototyper and am helping a friend to
complete a RepRap Mendel (printed on the Stratasys). I've used my
machine to test out grip panel ideas for pistols and paintball guns
(yet another hobby), and my latest project has been to make a rapid
prototyped AR-15 lower receiver: http://haveblue.org/ar15lowertests.jpg
(the one in the foreground was a 75% scale version to test the
viability of the concept) I made a few changes to the standard
receiver in order to strengthen certain regions to account for the use
of ABS on something originally intended to be aluminum, such as an
integral trigger guard and adding support around the front takedown
pin lugs and bolt hold lugs.
I'd like to post the receiver to Thingiverse and hear from others on
how it might be improved, but right on the upload page it says:
"5. Please don't upload weapons. The world has plenty of weapons
already."
In doing a little digging, I see various other weaponry items on
Thingiverse (including a very nice AR-15 mag follower) and mentions in
comments that the terms of service did in fact once prohibit weapons,
but have since been revised to allow them. Was the #5 upload rule
never removed when the ToS was modified, or is 'no weapons' still
official Thingiverse policy, despite the ToS?
- Michael
haveblue.org
MakerBlock
have uploaded weapons, toy and otherwise, to Thingiverse.
I'd love to see your designs on Thingiverse!
GWJax
it is only a piece of the AR-15 and not the complete gun. Sure I have
seen many weapons on Thingiverse and have no problem with them. I'm
not really sure why they have that rule but really they don't make
people take them down.
I'd love to see what all you have and post away...
Jax
Mark Ungrin
super-seekrit james-bond-ninja gun that you can print out and carry
through airport security. Also let's say you upload the complete plans
for a gun powered by a standard mini CO2 cylinder capable of shooting
nails completely through a human head...and some kid prints it out and
shoots a nail completely through a human head...who bears responsiblity
there, and how much?
...or if you post a knife that can be sharpened after printing enough to
hurt someone with - how does that interact with the U.K.'s notoriously
strict knife laws? Does it make Thingiverse liable for anything? Or you?
I have no idea - but I am sure it will come up eventually.
The ability to download and instantiate objects at will does raise some
moral and legal issues the maker community is going to have to deal with
more directly at some point. If a 3D printer could make an H-bomb from
scratch, access to 3D printers would logically need to be treated as
equivalent to access to nuclear weapons. Does that approach hold for
lesser weapons?
Everyone go read Diamond Age.
IMHO there will be regulations on the exchange of designs eventually -
there's no way around it. If we can establish a reasonable system now,
there's some chance that it will be reflected in what is eventually
codified. If not, I am sure that politicians and lobbyists would be more
than happy to come up with an unreasonable system for us later...
Mark
Forrest Flanagan
Mark Ungrin
turning silencers on a CNC lathe to your 8-year-old and they get on your
lathe and make one? Did I do something bad? And (not necessarily
related) who will get in trouble for it if authority finds out? What if
it was the whole gun?
In practise society doesn't face this issue much because machine tools
are generally too expensive and/or dangerous for random kids to have
unsupervised access, but 3D printers will be ubiquitous before too long.
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Forrest Flanagan
Luis E. Rodriguez
Luis E. Rodriguez
Mark Ungrin
independant manufacturing capacity out of the hands of 8-year-olds, so
other than a few isolated cases we've not had to worry about what they'd
do with it. Those kids who do get into trouble in this way have had to
put some effort into doing so.
The DIY revolution brought about by ubiquitous 3D printing is changing
this (for the better IMHO, my 7 year old has already done some creative
design work that we have printed out), but as with any new technology it
will raise some new challenges as well as new benefits - and if we as
supporters of these new technologies don't think about how we are going
to address them, the interests who oppose it will be more than happy to
do it for us.
I do not want to see a world where you need a license to operate a 3D
printer, and everything you print has to pass through some DRM and
safety software provided by the *IAA, FDA, ATF and CPSC first - but
there are people out there who are going to argue for that. Because the
children. And terrorists. And piracy. The best defence is to have
thought things out in advance, and work out at least some kind of
consensus etiquitte about posting designs.
I don't have any philosophical objection to posting weaponry - but at
the same time there should be more of a barrier between
$RANDOM_INTERNET_DENIZEN and a working firearm than pressing "Start" on
their 3D printer (and "Click here if you are under 18" won't cut it).
For the moment there still is, today's printers aren't quite up to it,
but in 2015? 2020?
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Aaron Double
Parts are damn expensive though!
I would go with your 2015 estimate over you 2020 estimate.
Aaron Double
Joe Kerman
As a bit of a freedom nerd, its hard to see how you can be both. you are either a free-flowing exchange, or you police things for your own arbitrary standards of respect and decency.
Thingiverse is a great place to post and share ideas, but it is most certainly /not/ a bastion of openness and freedom. It never claimed to be. It is a corporate site, by makerbot Inc, whose purpose is to sell more 3d printers. Its only as open as is reasonable to their lawyers to operate the business, I have to respect that.
P.S. and while im playing pretend internet lawyer, I would point out that society has already solved the issue of who to blame for violent crimes. I dont believe 3d printing adds any new angles to the law or societal need to deal with it. Weapon suppliers and manufacturers are rarely if never liable for violent crimes committed with their products. be it a book, a 3d model clearinghouse, or wal-mart. Another fun fact: the legal age to hunt with a gun in most states is around 10 years old. I think the law would say that gun manufacturing with your 8 year old would be "good preparation for small game hunting season" ;) (you're on your own re: the silencer)
</morningrant> :)
Zach Smith
On a more practical note... it is an extremely hard and flamewar fraught process to draw the line between weapon and not-weapon. We tried that once and it was a disaster.
Zach
Chief Product Officer
MakerBot Industries
David
actually no restriction on content posted on thingiverse?
On Sep 6, 4:14 pm, Zach Smith <z...@makerbot.com> wrote:
> This exactly. While we @ MakerBot (the founders and proprieters of
> Thingiverse) are saddened to see weapons posted on Thingiverse, we want to
> try and respect the free exchange of ideas that we've created.
>
> On a more practical note... it is an extremely hard and flamewar fraught
> process to draw the line between weapon and not-weapon. We tried that once
> and it was a disaster.
>
> Zach
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > wrote:
> > 3D printers don't hurt people. People do. Anything can be used as a weapon.
> > I don't see the NEED for modeling weapons personally but its not my place to
> > dictate that for everyone. A free exchange of ideas is what Thingiverse is
> > all about, this country really. They just aren't as fun as other objects,
> > IMO.
>
> > Luis E. Rodriguez
> > On Fri, Sep 2, 2011 at 8:34 AM, Forrest Flanagan <solenoidcl...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> >> You'd let an eight-year old use a CNC lathe unattended? Technology really
> >> isn't at a level where that is a safe proposition. Even if it were, people
> >> that host things like the TM 31-210 Improvised Munitions Handbook don't get
> >> in trouble when some kid makes picric acid from asprin or a zip gun with
> >> pipe fittings and safety matches.
>
>
> >>> What happens if I give detailed instructions and a G-code file for
> >>> turning silencers on a CNC lathe to your 8-year-old and they get on your
> >>> lathe and make one? Did I do something bad? And (not necessarily
> >>> related) who will get in trouble for it if authority finds out? What if
> >>> it was the whole gun?
>
> >>> In practise society doesn't face this issue much because machine tools
> >>> are generally too expensive and/or dangerous for random kids to have
> >>> unsupervised access, but 3D printers will be ubiquitous before too long.
>
> >>> On 01/09/2011 1:44 PM, Forrest Flanagan wrote:
> >>> > There's faulty logic there. Access to machine tools and machining
> >>> > knowledge isn't restricted, but one can potentially get in trouble if
> >>> > discovered turning silencers on their lathe. It's not the technology
> >>> > that's hindered, just the application.
>
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Andrew Plumb
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--
"The future is already here. It's just not very evenly distributed" -- William Gibson
Matt Joyce
I don't know where the ethics are in that. Maybe there is a god and he is a cruel and vindictive sort. Maybe there isn't one and we're just stuck trying to live with each other in a less than perfect situation.
Regardless, belt sanders are here to stay, and women are going to need to learn how to disarm their husbands if they decide to assault them with one. Marriage is about commitment and nothing says commitment like disarming your spouse as they attempt to kill you with a belt sander.
That's my position on this issue.
Vote for me.
Windell H. Oskay
> Marriage is about commitment and nothing says commitment like disarming
> your spouse as they attempt to kill you with a belt sander.
I don't understand. Where am I supposed to upload my K'nex gun STLs?
Edgar Castelo
If you are diligent little Mothers of Prevention, you might tun the World into this:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2037050/Racists-aged-THREE-Children-accused-bigotry-broccoli-head-calling.html#ixzz1Y9ZEhnfa
--
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Jeff Keegan
http://krebsonsecurity.com/2011/09/gang-used-3d-printers-for-atm-skimmers/
(in the line "Content promoting or providing instructional information about illegal activities.")
..Jeff
| Jeff Keegan == jke...@keegan.org == http://www.keegan.org/jeff |
\=====================================================================/
Luis E. Rodriguez
--
Matt Joyce
Also, I've heard of hunters with rifles and shotguns getting mauled to death by the bears they were shooting at. If someone was hunting grizzly bears for a legitimate and legal reason, I'd not be the least be surprised if they had a weapon comparable to an ar15. Honestly that would not be overkill in that situation.
But, I know that some people derive pleasure / enjoyment from firing weapons. Not necessarily at living things. But just the fun of going out to a range and shooting targets. Some of these folks enjoy firing esoteric weapons such as ar15s. And the reality is, our constitution isn't just built around the right to bear arms. It's also built around the pursuit of happiness.
Denying people the right to pursue their happiness because of the criminal actions of others is not what this country was or should ever be about. Hackers have stolen financial data from millions of people in the past few years alone. That's in some ways way worse than what any firearm has done, at least in terms of the shear scale of victims if not the severity of the crime. Does that mean that the internet should be turned into a police state? I argue no. And before you argue that the two are not analogous, I ask that you remember that in each the pursuit of individual happiness is at the very core of where all rights are derived.
That would be my counter argument.
Cheers.
-Matt
Windell H. Oskay
> And the reality is, our constitution isn't just
> built around the right to bear arms. It's also built around the pursuit
> of
> happiness.
"Pursuit of happiness" is neither mentioned nor protected in the US
constitution:
http://www.usconstitution.net/constnot.html#life
Also, Thingiverse isn't just used by people in the USA.
Matt Joyce
--
Mark Ungrin
ownership, and no doubt we could all fight about what exactly that means
until the sun burns out. Just to try to drag discussion back to what I
think might be a more productive arena though...
1. Free sharing of design files for object X means anyone with access to
an instantiator with the required capabilities (3D printer, CNC mill,
whatever) can make X (that's the point of Thingiverse)
2. 3D printer capacity and accesibility is progressing by leaps and
bounds, stuff that was unprintable not long ago is routine now (and
pricing on CNC machines is also coming down fast). You couldn't print a
convincing zip gun very easily today, but the day is not far off as more
materials become available.
3. While CNC machines are somewhat difficult to make child-friendly, 3D
printers lend themselves more to turnkey operation and machines
targeting kids as end users will be out shortly (c.f. Origo).
Each of these three points is a good thing, I assume we all agree on
this. In combination, they are bringing the day when some random kid
surfs over to thingiverse, downloads an stl, runs off a gun and shoot
someone closer. I assume we are also all in agreement that this will be
a bad thing. If steam is coming out of anyone's ears at this point -
calm down, take a couple of deep breaths, activate brain. Note carefully
that the word "ban" does not appear anywhere here. Note also that these
are fairly undeniable facts.
I think that we can probably also all agree that the above will lead to
politicians using the word "ban" and "regulate" (also
"thinkofthechildren" and all the usual related memes) a lot. This would
also be bad.
So, what is the alternative we can present to this set of circumstances?
If we, the people who are the biggest believers in the benefits this
sort of technology can have in our society, decide we can't even think
about whether there should be any limits on the availability of anything
(because freedom) - then that discussion will happen anyway, without our
input.
My own feelling is that the most practical restriction point is likely
the unsupervised access kids have to high-performance instantiators - in
practical terms, we might wind up in a place where an 8-year-old could
buy something that will cough out ABS over the counter, but can't buy a
titanium printer by themselves. Their parents could buy them one, and
would thereby take on the responsibility of keeping an eye on what they
make.
I can see how people might disagree with this - so tell me what your
better idea is. But we do need to figure this out.
Thoughts?
Mark
> Are you a Maker? <http://www.makerfairekc.com/>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 8:19 PM, Windell H. Oskay <win...@oskay.net
> <mailto:win...@oskay.net>> wrote:
>
>
> > Marriage is about commitment and nothing says commitment like
> disarming
> > your spouse as they attempt to kill you with a belt sander.
>
> I don't understand. Where am I supposed to upload my K'nex gun
> STLs?
>
>
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Matt Joyce
As of yet there's no 3D printer or CNC that will allow you to produce ammunition from downloaded plans.
Of course many people refill their spent casings themselves, but even that is somewhat controlled.
Maybe thingiverse can be a means by which hackers can actually produce a positive impact here. Maybe a weapon could be posted that imprints or requires a registered unique identifier for each round spent. I don't know.
But I feel like opening up the question to the larger community will have a greater impact on the issues in play than burying it in the sand and hoping it goes away.
It's worth pondering least ways.
-Matt
Joe Kerman
Mark Ungrin
who have much easier ways to get guns than printing one in most cases,
than I am about irresponsible ones. And by this I mean irresponsible in
the sense that we don't consider some people responsible enough to drive
a car or walk into a gun store and buy a gun on their own. A
computer-literate 8-year old today could download some STLs and print
something that looks like a gun without needing any training in
machining, CompSci or gun design. I don't think it will be that many
years before "that looks like" can be taken out of that
statement...that's the scenario I am more concerned about. Someone who
makes a gun because their friends at school will think it's cool. Elmer
T. Bank Robber will just walk into a gun shop or pawn shop and buy one
(or get one from his crack dealer).
Ammunition control is a good approach too, although the technicalities
may cause some problems. Also the fact that currently ammo is not very
controlled currently means there's a bunch floating around out there,
making the transition more difficult to enforce rapidly.
Mark
> <mailto:lrodrig...@gmail.com <mailto:lrodrig...@gmail.com>>>
> wrote:
> >
> > Isn't that what Instructables is for? Uncalled for but true.
> >
> > 3d printers don't kill people, people kill people? What hunter
> needs
> > an AR-15 anyways!? Also uncalled for. Not a gun owner, no need
> for one.
> >
> > Luis E. Rodriguez
> > Are you a Maker? <http://www.makerfairekc.com/>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 8:19 PM, Windell H. Oskay
> <win...@oskay.net <mailto:win...@oskay.net>
> > <mailto:win...@oskay.net <mailto:win...@oskay.net>>> wrote:
> >
> >
> > > Marriage is about commitment and nothing says commitment
> like
> > disarming
> > > your spouse as they attempt to kill you with a belt sander.
> >
> > I don't understand. Where am I supposed to upload my
> K'nex gun
> > STLs?
> >
> >
> > --
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> tuned to
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Edgar Castelo
Ooops, just did! :)
justblair
be about."
1. I don't come from your country... Your values don't apply to me
2. Publishing weapons and their component parts denies me my
happiness. I ruins my enjoyment of the site and alienates me and
millions like me from the maker community
3. Thingiverse is a domain owned by Makerbot. As such the content
they allow on the site reflects the ethics of the company. Allowing
this kind of content on the site reflects poorly on Makerbot.
At the weekend I proudly displayed my recently completed Prusa at a
maker event. I was recommending the Makerbot products for those that
wanted an easy and fun entry into 3D design. If this kind of material
continues to be posted I will be suggesting just about anyone else...
For those that enjoy killing machines, it's a free web. Open up your
own website, publish away and enjoy your hobby. I won't be visiting.
Makerbot, wake up. This is a topic that will cost you revenue and
already is damaging the goodwill of the community that you service.
My two pence worth, sorry for stepping on toes. (But you stepped on
mine first)
Blair
> > On Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 8:19 PM, Windell H. Oskay <wind...@oskay.net>wrote:
>
> >> > Marriage is about commitment and nothing says commitment like disarming
> >> > your spouse as they attempt to kill you with a belt sander.
>
> >> I don't understand. Where am I supposed to upload my K'nex gun STLs?
>
> >> --
> >> athttp://blog.thingiverse.com.
> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
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Windell H. Oskay
> 2. Publishing weapons and their component parts denies me my
> happiness. I ruins my enjoyment of the site and alienates me and
> millions like me from the maker community
>
> 3. Thingiverse is a domain owned by Makerbot. As such the content
> they allow on the site reflects the ethics of the company. Allowing
> this kind of content on the site reflects poorly on Makerbot.
You have a couple of fine points there-- ones that are hard to argue with.
On the other hand, I happen to think that it would be nice to have an
exception for certain "traditional" classes of toys-- including toy
swords, squirt guns, and rubber band guns.
I think that a spiked ball at the end of a chain might be a nice element
for a costume, and would be reasonably safe, made out of extruded plastic.
But should it be banned from Thingiverse? These are tough decisions, and
ones that Makerbot needs to make.
David
Irresponsible uploading of weapons is a sure way to make that happen.
Edgar Castelo
Not in North Korea...
What a PARADISE!
Hundreds of thousands on Concentration Camps, there to work as Slaves, and starve, or eat frogs, earth, or each other's crap...
But I guess nothings wrong, there are no guns there, no terrible guns, 'cos we all know:
When it's your God, the State, that has guns, and indulge in these fun activities, it's all fin and dandy. Nothing terrible there.
Hi,
I do not think this is an issue anymore as I have come up with a
solution. I was looking at the posts on Thingiverse and saw a pattern.
If someone posts something against weapons then someone might agree,
some might disagree, many will login as guest and post stupid remarks
or something else and not be known. Many will twist the posters words
and expand on them in all sorts of different directions. It goes on
and on. Then I saw something different. I saw flowers for guns and
Anti-Ammo pendants. It hit me square in the face like an AR-15 bullet.
This was nothing but a handful of people who can't comprehend what
they are doing and the rest are just baiters looking to exploit the
1st and 2nd ammendments.
So I came up with a solution...
Beat their swords into plowshares, for every knife a sheath. Use the
same weapons against them. Twist their words so they agree with you.
Ridicule them. Particularly the @guest accounters.
This is why I have formed the new Thingiverse Weapons Are Totally
Terrible league.
Imagine from an AR-15 lower we derive a tofu press, for a bullet a sex
aid. The point is make something useful from it. I know many people
work hard on designing their stuff and would find it a bit ironic and
maybe think twice about it before uploading.
Here is a sample retort:
His Post
All the whiney "war" and "murder" tag crack me up... I guess I am not
used to being on a site with people from socialist countries or places
where people have given up their God given right to arms... Its a
little hard for me to understand the disarmament mentality being a
free man and not a slave or a "subject", but whatever.
Also, I own literally thouands of REAL .223 Rem/5.56 NATO rounds, and
I have never fought a war or murdered anyone. Do you suppose I am
using them wrong?
My Post
I don't know if I should tell you this considering you have all that
ammo around, but if you just keep it between you and me well... you
really are doing something wrong. I am pretty certain that if you want
to fight a war or murder someone then you will need a gun to put it
in. If you don't have one handy I think you can find the designs right
here on thingiverse. If you find the designs incomplete, I'm sure
someone will point you in the right direction. But be careful, I've
heard that these things are non-functional so maybe that wouldn't
work. I'm glad you agree with me that we have the right to arms. I
have two of them and two legs also. I also feel sad for people who
have no arms or even one arm. It's a shame Have you considered
donating to all the charities that help them. It would be a great
thing to do. Considering you have all that useless ammo around and no
gun anyway, why don't you consider selling it and giving the proceeds
to them. The other benefit will be you won't have to worry about the
things exploding and perhaps you no longer having arms to bare.
Another:
His Post:
Is everyone on this site such big cry babies? Its a friggen plastic
bullet. Awwww, I'm sad now, and I think I just piddled myself...
My Post:
I really can't answer the question of whether everyone on the site is
a cry baby as I really don't know everyone here expecially the @guest
person. I think everyone will need to answer that for themselves. I
say I am not. You are on this site, and since you piddled, well I
think you answered what you are. I do need to correct you on the fact
that it is not a plastic bullet but a file that has the potential to
be a plastic bullet, or even a metal bullet. But a friggin bullet? I
think not as I do not know of any material called friggen. Thank you
for contributing your thoughts on this subject. You must be exhausted
now and probably need a nap. Sweet dreams!
Here is another who was mocking me and twisting my words. notice he
does not like it.
My Post
I think this is terrific. But I was a little surprised that you left
out the holes for the bullets. As an AR-15 clip or grip this doesn't
work well. So I'm guessing you are agreeing with us that this is no
place for realistic or functional weapons by making this kind of
political statement in Art. Thanks for joining us. We welcome you to
the Thingiverse Weapons Are Totally Terrible league.
His response
It's bad enough you rant in the other threads, don't hijack things
I've posted for your noisemaking. And don't presume to speak for me.
My response
But Mjlonir brother, you've been speaking for me on several occasions.
I'm just here to help get your point across. The 1st amendment gives
me that right. The 2nd amendment is yours.
And of course the @guest account can be treated as a Schizo.
Regards,
Mark
On Sep 6, 4:14 pm, Zach Smith <z...@makerbot.com> wrote:
> This exactly. While we @ MakerBot (the founders and proprieters of
> Thingiverse) are saddened to see weapons posted on Thingiverse, we want to
> try and respect the free exchange of ideas that we've created.
>
> On a more practical note... it is an extremely hard and flamewar fraught
> process to draw the line between weapon and not-weapon. We tried that once
> and it was a disaster.
>
> Zach
>
> On Fri, Sep 2, 2011 at 10:06 AM, Luis E. Rodriguez <lrodriguezm...@gmail.com
>
>
>
>
>
> > wrote:
> > 3D printers don't hurt people. People do. Anything can be used as a weapon.
> > I don't see the NEED for modeling weapons personally but its not my place to
> > dictate that for everyone. A free exchange of ideas is what Thingiverse is
> > all about, this country really. They just aren't as fun as other objects,
> > IMO.
>
> > Luis E. Rodriguez
> > Are you a Maker? <http://www.makerfairekc.com/>
>
> > On Fri, Sep 2, 2011 at 8:34 AM, Forrest Flanagan <solenoidcl...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> >> You'd let an eight-year old use a CNC lathe unattended? Technology really
> >> isn't at a level where that is a safe proposition. Even if it were, people
> >> that host things like the TM 31-210 Improvised Munitions Handbook don't get
> >> in trouble when some kid makes picric acid from asprin or a zip gun with
> >> pipe fittings and safety matches.
>
> >> On Thu, Sep 1, 2011 at 2:16 PM, Mark Ungrin <Mark.Ung...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> >>> What happens if I give detailed instructions and a G-code file for
> >>> turning silencers on a CNC lathe to your 8-year-old and they get on your
> >>> lathe and make one? Did I do something bad? And (not necessarily
> >>> related) who will get in trouble for it if authority finds out? What if
> >>> it was the whole gun?
>
> >>> In practise society doesn't face this issue much because machine tools
> >>> are generally too expensive and/or dangerous for random kids to have
> >>> unsupervised access, but 3D printers will be ubiquitous before too long.
>
> >>> On 01/09/2011 1:44 PM, Forrest Flanagan wrote:
> >>> > There's faulty logic there. Access to machine tools and machining
> >>> > knowledge isn't restricted, but one can potentially get in trouble if
> >>> > discovered turning silencers on their lathe.