Was 'Ages' disqualified?
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sinisterDei
Jul 20, 2008, 5:00:48 PM7/20/08
to TheCrackedMuggle
I'm simply curious. I don't normally pay attention much to the
challenges, or the fics they produce, unless something or someone
external draws my attention to them. I read Ages simply because it was
by Dave, and found it to be fairly awesome. I know there's been some
'controversy' (if you can call it such) with regard to a few aspects
of the challenge, and one of the judges left a review discussing
whether Ages met the criteria for the challenge or not. My opinion is
that it did, because whether James and Lily were really Harry and
Ginny in disguise or not, the characters in the show believed they
were H&G's children from the future and reacted accordingly. I thought
it was brilliant.
And then they posted the winners for the various categories and
honorable mentions and Ages was nowhere to be found. I was simply
curious whether it had been disqualified officially, because I simply
can't imagine it just not winning something.
challenges, or the fics they produce, unless something or someone
external draws my attention to them. I read Ages simply because it was
by Dave, and found it to be fairly awesome. I know there's been some
'controversy' (if you can call it such) with regard to a few aspects
of the challenge, and one of the judges left a review discussing
whether Ages met the criteria for the challenge or not. My opinion is
that it did, because whether James and Lily were really Harry and
Ginny in disguise or not, the characters in the show believed they
were H&G's children from the future and reacted accordingly. I thought
it was brilliant.
And then they posted the winners for the various categories and
honorable mentions and Ages was nowhere to be found. I was simply
curious whether it had been disqualified officially, because I simply
can't imagine it just not winning something.
melkior
Jul 20, 2008, 6:18:38 PM7/20/08
to TheCrackedMuggle
Ages was not disqualified. I can tell you that because it was offered
as a story for voting, and I'm pretty sure I was one of the judges.
Apparently, between the 20 of us, Ages didn't manage to get enough
votes to win in any category.
Since I was a judge, I won't tell you how disappointed I've been when
I didn't see it in the winning stories list. Oh wait! I just did.
Ah well.
Dino
as a story for voting, and I'm pretty sure I was one of the judges.
Apparently, between the 20 of us, Ages didn't manage to get enough
votes to win in any category.
Since I was a judge, I won't tell you how disappointed I've been when
I didn't see it in the winning stories list. Oh wait! I just did.
Ah well.
Dino
Chreechree
Jul 20, 2008, 6:26:33 PM7/20/08
to TheCrackedMuggle
No, Ages was not disqualified, and I can say that as a judge, as a
SIYE staff member, and as a disappointed beta of the story. I'd hoped
it would win, too, but even Dave can't always win. Too bad, as it's
one of my very favorite things he has ever written.
It is not unusual for challenge stories to stray a bit from the
challenge parameters. I've been judging challenges for a while, and
what I choose to vote for has never been dictated by Sir Ollivander in
any way. Specifically, I've never been told that any completed story
was ineligible. Each judge is presented with the challenge and the
parameters, reads the stories, and then makes their own assessment.
Consistency within your own judging is what is key. I have eliminated
stories in my mind that I felt didn't meet the parameters, and that is
my right as a judge to do so. Other judges might not see the same
story the same way.
I know which review you're talking about, and that was merely Jim's
opinion. His opinion only affects his own votes. He seemed to like
the story, but he didn't seem to fully get it and couldn't seem to
decide if it fit the parameters or not.
The challenge never said the children had to be Harry and Ginny's
children, just that they called themselves James and Lily and that
they called Harry "Dad" and Ginny "Mum." Other stories had the kids
be the Lestranges, Voldie and Snape, Albus Potter's grandchildren,
etc., so Dave certainly did nothing wrong in having them not be Lily
and James Potter. As a matter of fact, part of the challenge
requirements were that the author identify who the kids actually
were. Dave did that if you paid attention. I guess as he's confirmed
things in reviews to those who got it right, I can say this now.
"Jamie" called "Lily" "Gin" at one point, so I think their identities
should be clear.
I think most of the stories that were chosen were pretty good, and
some I liked more than others. There were a couple of other stories I
really liked that also went unrecognized. I do take issue with one of
the winning stories, but I'm not going to bad mouth it publicly. That
being said, I think that Ages was the best story, but I guess that it
didn't grab the other judges the way it grabbed me.
SIYE staff member, and as a disappointed beta of the story. I'd hoped
it would win, too, but even Dave can't always win. Too bad, as it's
one of my very favorite things he has ever written.
It is not unusual for challenge stories to stray a bit from the
challenge parameters. I've been judging challenges for a while, and
what I choose to vote for has never been dictated by Sir Ollivander in
any way. Specifically, I've never been told that any completed story
was ineligible. Each judge is presented with the challenge and the
parameters, reads the stories, and then makes their own assessment.
Consistency within your own judging is what is key. I have eliminated
stories in my mind that I felt didn't meet the parameters, and that is
my right as a judge to do so. Other judges might not see the same
story the same way.
I know which review you're talking about, and that was merely Jim's
opinion. His opinion only affects his own votes. He seemed to like
the story, but he didn't seem to fully get it and couldn't seem to
decide if it fit the parameters or not.
The challenge never said the children had to be Harry and Ginny's
children, just that they called themselves James and Lily and that
they called Harry "Dad" and Ginny "Mum." Other stories had the kids
be the Lestranges, Voldie and Snape, Albus Potter's grandchildren,
etc., so Dave certainly did nothing wrong in having them not be Lily
and James Potter. As a matter of fact, part of the challenge
requirements were that the author identify who the kids actually
were. Dave did that if you paid attention. I guess as he's confirmed
things in reviews to those who got it right, I can say this now.
"Jamie" called "Lily" "Gin" at one point, so I think their identities
should be clear.
I think most of the stories that were chosen were pretty good, and
some I liked more than others. There were a couple of other stories I
really liked that also went unrecognized. I do take issue with one of
the winning stories, but I'm not going to bad mouth it publicly. That
being said, I think that Ages was the best story, but I guess that it
didn't grab the other judges the way it grabbed me.
sinisterDei
Jul 20, 2008, 7:29:49 PM7/20/08
to TheCrackedMuggle
Ah. Well, I'm glad it wasn't disqualified, but disappointed it didn't
win. Like the both of you, I quite enjoyed it, and the idea of it not
winning hadn't quite crossed my mind, especially with the opinions
expressed by people that left reviews. The only thing that perhaps
worked against it is people simply reading too fast and flying by the
subtleties.
win. Like the both of you, I quite enjoyed it, and the idea of it not
winning hadn't quite crossed my mind, especially with the opinions
expressed by people that left reviews. The only thing that perhaps
worked against it is people simply reading too fast and flying by the
subtleties.
Kezzabear
Jul 21, 2008, 12:24:09 PM7/21/08
to TheCrackedMuggle
Well I was very disappointed yesterday. Still am tbh. My first thought
was 'at least Sovran didn't win again!' :P (In the interests of
spreading the lurve and all.) But honestly? I would rather have not
placed after 'Ages' than many stories on the list. I thought 'Ages'
was very well crafted and in all honesty, better written than some of
the winners and with a much better premise and plot and whatnot and
whosit. I guess I just ... I liked mine best, as I guess all authors
do - but I don't know I guess I just thought maybe I finally made an
impression given the reviews I have received for it. So I was very
disappointed yesterday. Today ... well yeah I am still but it'll fade
like always I suppose. *sighs heavily*
Well Done, Dave I think you definitely should have won "Most
Original". It was probably the most unique concept out there. *And
erm, superbly beta'ed unlike my hasty effort that I well and truly got
caned for when my beta got home!)
And there is my post (to risk offending probably half of SIYE ...)
was 'at least Sovran didn't win again!' :P (In the interests of
spreading the lurve and all.) But honestly? I would rather have not
placed after 'Ages' than many stories on the list. I thought 'Ages'
was very well crafted and in all honesty, better written than some of
the winners and with a much better premise and plot and whatnot and
whosit. I guess I just ... I liked mine best, as I guess all authors
do - but I don't know I guess I just thought maybe I finally made an
impression given the reviews I have received for it. So I was very
disappointed yesterday. Today ... well yeah I am still but it'll fade
like always I suppose. *sighs heavily*
Well Done, Dave I think you definitely should have won "Most
Original". It was probably the most unique concept out there. *And
erm, superbly beta'ed unlike my hasty effort that I well and truly got
caned for when my beta got home!)
And there is my post (to risk offending probably half of SIYE ...)
Dave
Jul 21, 2008, 1:30:45 PM7/21/08
to TheCrackedMuggle
Kezza, I am still shocked that your story did not win Best Overall. I
truly expected it to. I like "Ages", and I'll defend it on many
grounds, but I admit that it did not really address the challenge in
the way it was supposed to. If there had been a drama category or a
"where the heck did THAT come from?" category, then maybe.
Anyway, I really thought you had it in the bag, and I'm still
surprised and disappointed that your story did not win the Overall
award. I read it pre-beta and post-beta, and in either form I think
it was worthy.
Aside from that, I agree that there are other stories I would rather
have lost to, including yours.
Dave
> > subtleties.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
truly expected it to. I like "Ages", and I'll defend it on many
grounds, but I admit that it did not really address the challenge in
the way it was supposed to. If there had been a drama category or a
"where the heck did THAT come from?" category, then maybe.
Anyway, I really thought you had it in the bag, and I'm still
surprised and disappointed that your story did not win the Overall
award. I read it pre-beta and post-beta, and in either form I think
it was worthy.
Aside from that, I agree that there are other stories I would rather
have lost to, including yours.
Dave
>
> - Show quoted text -
Bransfolly
Jul 21, 2008, 5:51:26 PM7/21/08
to TheCrackedMuggle
As with all my reading (along with my writing), i like stories that
make me think and make me feel. 'Ages' and 'Falling for Her' were the
only two that managed this. That makes them winners in my book.
Perhaps there should be a category for a public vote as you would
probably(did i say probably! Perhaps i'm being diplomatic} get a
different result. Let's be honest, some of the winning tales were not
that good (that's more like me).
make me think and make me feel. 'Ages' and 'Falling for Her' were the
only two that managed this. That makes them winners in my book.
Perhaps there should be a category for a public vote as you would
probably(did i say probably! Perhaps i'm being diplomatic} get a
different result. Let's be honest, some of the winning tales were not
that good (that's more like me).
Kezzabear
Jul 21, 2008, 8:43:37 PM7/21/08
to TheCrackedMuggle
I think one of the (probably shallow) reasons I wanted to win
something was because without the DSTA up you don't get that sense of
validation. I liked watching the people vote even if I didn't actually
win a category it was nice to see a reflection of how much people
liked it. I don't know whether to ask for the 'how did I do' results
or not I fear it will make me sadder.
That's what I get for listening to everyone around me tell me I would
do really well ... I really do think my disappointment would have been
less had a couple stories I really enjoyed made the list ahead of me -
I would have felt it was sort of even. I remember one with a
photograph that I think should have made it and I don't think it's
listed either.
Maybe my melancholy over this will produce some brilliant writing for
my WiP ... (let's not count on that)
something was because without the DSTA up you don't get that sense of
validation. I liked watching the people vote even if I didn't actually
win a category it was nice to see a reflection of how much people
liked it. I don't know whether to ask for the 'how did I do' results
or not I fear it will make me sadder.
That's what I get for listening to everyone around me tell me I would
do really well ... I really do think my disappointment would have been
less had a couple stories I really enjoyed made the list ahead of me -
I would have felt it was sort of even. I remember one with a
photograph that I think should have made it and I don't think it's
listed either.
Maybe my melancholy over this will produce some brilliant writing for
my WiP ... (let's not count on that)
kevin
Jul 21, 2008, 11:38:08 PM7/21/08
to thecrack...@googlegroups.com
Kezzabear wrote:
> I think one of the (probably shallow) reasons I wanted to win
> something was because without the DSTA up you don't get that sense of
> validation. I liked watching the people vote even if I didn't actually
> win a category it was nice to see a reflection of how much people
> liked it. I don't know whether to ask for the 'how did I do' results
> or not I fear it will make me sadder.
>
> That's what I get for listening to everyone around me tell me I would
> do really well ... I really do think my disappointment would have been
> less had a couple stories I really enjoyed made the list ahead of me -
> I would have felt it was sort of even. I remember one with a
> photograph that I think should have made it and I don't think it's
> listed either.
>
> Maybe my melancholy over this will produce some brilliant writing for
> my WiP ... (let's not count on that)
> I think one of the (probably shallow) reasons I wanted to win
> something was because without the DSTA up you don't get that sense of
> validation. I liked watching the people vote even if I didn't actually
> win a category it was nice to see a reflection of how much people
> liked it. I don't know whether to ask for the 'how did I do' results
> or not I fear it will make me sadder.
>
> That's what I get for listening to everyone around me tell me I would
> do really well ... I really do think my disappointment would have been
> less had a couple stories I really enjoyed made the list ahead of me -
> I would have felt it was sort of even. I remember one with a
> photograph that I think should have made it and I don't think it's
> listed either.
>
> Maybe my melancholy over this will produce some brilliant writing for
> my WiP ... (let's not count on that)
I understand that completely. For the longest time, I really wanted to
win a DSTA. At the beginning, I knew I wasn't ready. But after a while,
I wrote a story (a oneshot) I really liked, and it was well received. I
thought, "This is it!"
Alas, as Albus would say, :-) that same month Cel (or cwarbeck) released
a oneshot too and she won. I was a bit bummed, but at least I had the
satisfaction of knowing that her winning story was much better than mine
(and she's a really nice person too), so I didn't feel all that bad. Had
it been some other story that didn't seem as good to me, I definitely
would have been depressed for a few days.
But hey, I managed to have inspiration and later got a DSTA, so my goal
has been accomplished. :-)
Hang in there Kezza and keep writing!
Kevin
Phil Boswell
Jul 22, 2008, 5:49:27 AM7/22/08
to TheCrackedMuggle
On Jul 22, 1:43 am, Kezzabear <kerenli...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I think one of the (probably shallow) reasons I wanted to win
> something was because without the DSTA up you don't get that sense of
> validation.
This would explain why my innocent click of the [Nominate for July 08
> I think one of the (probably shallow) reasons I wanted to win
> something was because without the DSTA up you don't get that sense of
> validation.
DSTA] link on "Phantom Limb" (an utterly fabulous story BTW) gave me a
blank page with no explanation. Having never nominated anything
before, I was wondering whether I'd done something wrong.
Well, obviously I had: trying to nominate a story for a non-functional
award. Oops?
If the Trinket system is not to be functional any time soon, any
chance of either hiding the links or providing a result which is more
than simply a blank page?
--
Phil
...who always seems to end up finding the cracks between the paving
slabs even when he's not supposed to
Zapatorf
Jul 22, 2008, 12:04:58 PM7/22/08
to TheCrackedMuggle
As a judge, I felt that there were far too few categories for the
sheer number of fics. I would have been extremely satisfied if there
had been a "Creative use" category. I was not my happiest when looking
at the results.
- Zap
sheer number of fics. I would have been extremely satisfied if there
had been a "Creative use" category. I was not my happiest when looking
at the results.
- Zap
bigshot
Jul 22, 2008, 9:15:01 PM7/22/08
to TheCrackedMuggle
Hey all, first time poster, long time reader.
This was the first challenge on SIYE that I really followed, and I
thought ages was awesome.
My question comes from something that has been bugging me since I
first read the premise for this challenge: Aren't the SIYE challenges
supposed to fit into canon somehow, and if so, how did someone miss
the fact that James and Lily aren't twins....in fact, James is at
least 3 years older than Lily in the DH Epilogue.
This was the first challenge on SIYE that I really followed, and I
thought ages was awesome.
My question comes from something that has been bugging me since I
first read the premise for this challenge: Aren't the SIYE challenges
supposed to fit into canon somehow, and if so, how did someone miss
the fact that James and Lily aren't twins....in fact, James is at
least 3 years older than Lily in the DH Epilogue.
kevin
Jul 22, 2008, 9:34:11 PM7/22/08
to thecrack...@googlegroups.com
bigshot wrote:
...
> My question comes from something that has been bugging me since I
> first read the premise for this challenge: Aren't the SIYE challenges
> supposed to fit into canon somehow, ...
...
> My question comes from something that has been bugging me since I
> first read the premise for this challenge: Aren't the SIYE challenges
Nope. There have been several that couldn't fit into canon at all (or
would have been very hard pressed to have fit), and were definitely A/U
in nature. Of course, that may depend on how you interpret parts of
canon. :-)
Kevin
bigshot
Jul 22, 2008, 10:28:57 PM7/22/08
to TheCrackedMuggle
Ok, I guess that makes sense. I just get kind of confused when they
are obviously trying to make it fit somewhat into canon but that get
various details wrong(like Harry never going to the Burrow between
fourth and fifth year)
are obviously trying to make it fit somewhat into canon but that get
various details wrong(like Harry never going to the Burrow between
fourth and fifth year)
melkior
Jul 23, 2008, 3:10:33 PM7/23/08
to TheCrackedMuggle
Who cares about fitting into canon? If we all tried that, there
wouldn't be stories like Echoes. In fact, most of the stories we
discuss on this group wouldn't exist.
I've seen authors trying to fit into canon so hard they forget about
all the other important bits and pieces. Sure, they get all the
details right, but their characterization is all over the place. Or
they simply end up with boring stories without any sort of plot.
I'd rather see a consistent story that has some canon issues, than a
canon-abiding jumble of worthless words. I almost wrote prose, but
that would be pushing it.
Now, why am I ranting? I have no idea. I probably had a bad day. I
think I'll go back to my writing now. I'm really in the mood to kill
a couple of characters.
Dino
wouldn't be stories like Echoes. In fact, most of the stories we
discuss on this group wouldn't exist.
I've seen authors trying to fit into canon so hard they forget about
all the other important bits and pieces. Sure, they get all the
details right, but their characterization is all over the place. Or
they simply end up with boring stories without any sort of plot.
I'd rather see a consistent story that has some canon issues, than a
canon-abiding jumble of worthless words. I almost wrote prose, but
that would be pushing it.
Now, why am I ranting? I have no idea. I probably had a bad day. I
think I'll go back to my writing now. I'm really in the mood to kill
a couple of characters.
Dino
Bransfolly
Jul 23, 2008, 6:48:49 PM7/23/08
to TheCrackedMuggle
Open to suggestions?????
I'm really in the mood to kill
a couple of characters.
Dino
I know how that feels, often i've wrote or edited scripts that i know
would never be used or even seen because people have annoyed me
it's rather refreshing i find
I'm really in the mood to kill
a couple of characters.
Dino
would never be used or even seen because people have annoyed me
it's rather refreshing i find
Chris Marshall
Jul 23, 2008, 6:50:17 PM7/23/08
to thecrack...@googlegroups.com
Kill some Death Eaters... They are much more fun to dispose of then anyone else...
Now I think the next Challange should be to find the most imaginative way to dispose of the Death Eaters...
Chris, who just killed 25 in his story :).
omega13a
Jul 23, 2008, 7:46:47 PM7/23/08
to TheCrackedMuggle
On Jul 23, 3:50 pm, "Chris Marshall" <centime...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Kill some Death Eaters... They are much more fun to dispose of then anyone
> else...
Kill Umbridge instead. There's something about her that makes me glad
> Kill some Death Eaters... They are much more fun to dispose of then anyone
> else...
I haven't meet anyone like her (I've meet a person that is a cross
between Lockheart and Snape).
omega13a
Sibling Creature
Jul 23, 2008, 8:26:42 PM7/23/08
to thecrack...@googlegroups.com
melkior wrote:
> I've seen authors trying to fit into canon so hard they forget about
> all the other important bits and pieces. Sure, they get all the
> details right, but their characterization is all over the place. Or
> they simply end up with boring stories without any sort of plot.
>
I think The Forgotten Girl by SSHenry is a good example of this. > I've seen authors trying to fit into canon so hard they forget about
> all the other important bits and pieces. Sure, they get all the
> details right, but their characterization is all over the place. Or
> they simply end up with boring stories without any sort of plot.
>
Having a written a couple of novel length stories to follow canon OOPT
and a missing moment for Ginny following Ginny's first year, she then
tried to bridge the two in The Forgotten Girl... except that her
characterisations kept steering the story away from canon and she had to
keep forcing it back, and I couldn't help feeling that the story
suffered as a result.
> I'd rather see a consistent story that has some canon issues, than a
> canon-abiding jumble of worthless words. I almost wrote prose, but
> that would be pushing it.
>
Agreed.
- Sibling Creature
bigshot
Jul 23, 2008, 11:44:48 PM7/23/08
to TheCrackedMuggle
Oh, I have no problems with AU stories, or stories that split from
canon at a certain point, but I just don't get the point of a story
that is supposed to be original but still has to conform exactly to
canon. IE I can't stand Harry/Ginny stories that make her date Dean
and have the first kiss after the Quidditch Cup.
I mean, using some plot elements is good, I have no fault with stories
that employ the use of Horcruxes, but I don't see how you can claim a
story to be AU and still force it to conform to exact plot points from
canon.
Anyway, back the the question I asked in my original post, I guess I
was wondering more specifically if the kids were made twins and Harry
& Co. placed at the Burrow(where they shouldn't have been) on
purpose.....and if so, why?
canon at a certain point, but I just don't get the point of a story
that is supposed to be original but still has to conform exactly to
canon. IE I can't stand Harry/Ginny stories that make her date Dean
and have the first kiss after the Quidditch Cup.
I mean, using some plot elements is good, I have no fault with stories
that employ the use of Horcruxes, but I don't see how you can claim a
story to be AU and still force it to conform to exact plot points from
canon.
Anyway, back the the question I asked in my original post, I guess I
was wondering more specifically if the kids were made twins and Harry
& Co. placed at the Burrow(where they shouldn't have been) on
purpose.....and if so, why?
Miri
Jul 24, 2008, 7:07:27 AM7/24/08
to TheCrackedMuggle
On Jul 23, 3:10 pm, melkior <dpask...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Who cares about fitting into canon? If we all tried that, there
> wouldn't be stories like Echoes. In fact, most of the stories we
> discuss on this group wouldn't exist.
written by JKR could be considered AU as only work by the original
author might be considered fully canon no matter how close to canon a
fan writer tries to be. Of course, this is true af any other fandom as
well. So, I don't get too het up about "AU" classification. It's more
important to me if the story is "internally" consistent and has a
least a nodding acquaintance with the characters as established in
whatever book of the series the fan writer uses as their jumping off
point.
And if we're voting on who (whom?) Dino should kill off, Dear (Ack!
cough..cough) Dolores has my vote, but Death Eaters would probably be
easier.
Miri
melkior
Jul 24, 2008, 7:18:26 AM7/24/08
to TheCrackedMuggle
No, no, no. I think you didn't understand me (maybe even on
purpose). When I say "kill a couple of characters", I mean the good
guys. Death Eaters get to die anyway.
But who cares, right?
Dino
purpose). When I say "kill a couple of characters", I mean the good
guys. Death Eaters get to die anyway.
But who cares, right?
Dino
Kezzabear
Jul 24, 2008, 9:07:22 AM7/24/08
to TheCrackedMuggle
DON'T KILL ARTHUR!
Erm ... yeah ... that's um, my vote ...
Erm ... yeah ... that's um, my vote ...
Comet Moon
Jul 24, 2008, 9:14:09 AM7/24/08
to thecrack...@googlegroups.com
Whose the Logical one to kill?
Molly, the keeper of the Heart and Home.
Arthur, the keeper of the Wisdom and Logic
Ron the comic relief
Hermione the Brains
Luna the Pure
Neville the Loyal
The twins the Joy and Fun
Bill the Cool
Percy the Prat
Charlie the Nature bound
Ginny NNNNNEEEEEVVVVVVVVEEEEEEEEEEEERRRRRRRRRR
Who would be your Vote?
Ja ne
DON'T KILL ARTHUR!
Erm ... yeah ... that's um, my vote ...
August, Charles E
Jul 24, 2008, 12:11:26 PM7/24/08
to thecrack...@googlegroups.com
>>Death Eaters get to die anyway.<< by Dino.
You make that sound like a privilege. I like the way you think!
VR/Chuck
Chris Marshall
Jul 24, 2008, 12:17:04 PM7/24/08
to thecrack...@googlegroups.com
That is so hard, having to chose who to kill, I am about to kill off a good guy in my story but it will be a heroic death...
Chris Marshall
Jul 24, 2008, 12:18:48 PM7/24/08
to thecrack...@googlegroups.com
At least in my story I don't have to worry about Harry or Ginny :) if you read carefully in the first story Xavier told them something when they perfected the Phoenix Animagus transformation, I won't say more but you will find out anyway in the third story.
Bransfolly
Jul 25, 2008, 9:47:22 PM7/25/08
to TheCrackedMuggle
oh in that case Ron then switch Neville to centre stage for comic
relief and also McG because i have never seen that happen.
Hmm now i have an idea brewing and 2 free months!!
relief and also McG because i have never seen that happen.
Hmm now i have an idea brewing and 2 free months!!
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